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Media (Apple) Media Businesses Television Apple

EFF Reviews HDTV PVR Solution for Mac 147

Posted by timothy from the moving-about-pictures dept.
enrico_suave points out this "PVRBlog post about EFF's Review of Elgato's EyeTV 500, an HDTV solution for the Mac. Well, a very speedy dual-processor G5 Mac, apparently. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has been doing a lot of important work defending our online and digital rights including opposing the dreaded FCC mandated broadcast flag (cue boos and hisses) Elgato and Plextor also have a Standard Definition homebrew PVR solution with an EyeTV and ConvertX PVR bundle (Wired review)." (See also this earlier review from a Slashdot reader.)
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EFF Reviews HDTV PVR Solution for Mac More

EFF Reviews HDTV PVR Solution for Mac

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  • RTFA? (Score:4, Funny)

    by DreadPiratePizz ( 803402 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @06:42PM (#11300293)
    I've got no problem with reading ONE article, but this is ridiculous!

  • Am I missing something here? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by thammoud ( 193905 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @06:47PM (#11300332)
    If you intend to have your Mac handle all of your DTV duties--watching live TV, recording, and playing back recorded shows--you'll probably want a dual-G5 PowerMac


    On Monday, comcast will install a $10 a month PVR with dual tuner and one that can record 15 hours of HDTV and 60 of regular TV. Why should I invest in a dual G5 power mac and an additional $350 to basically get the same functionality.

    • Re:Am I missing something here? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This comment is funny if you picture in your head this guys current computer...

    • Re:Am I missing something here? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by PornMaster ( 749461 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @06:52PM (#11300363) Homepage
      Can you archive HDTV broadcasts, though? 15 hours isn't much in the whole scheme of things.
    • On Monday, comcast will install a $10 a month PVR with dual tuner and one that can record 15 hours of HDTV and 60 of regular TV. Why should I invest in a dual G5 power mac and an additional $350 to basically get the same functionality.

      Perhaps because you'll want to record TV shows for more than the ($cost_of_Power_mac + 350) / 10 months.
    • Because, uh... you already own a Mac?

      Come on, I'm sure whoever wrote the article wasn't expecting you to immediately run out and plunk down a couple of thousand dollars for a Mac just to use this peripheral.

    • Re:Am I missing something here? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 08, 2005 @07:00PM (#11300412)
      Possible things you're missing:
      1. If you get Comcast's PVR, Comcast controls your PVR and you do what they tell you.
      2. Comcast isn't worldwide, last time I checked.
      3. Ridiculously excessive, far more expensive hardware is way cooler.
      4. I could hook up a RAID array and record a metric gazillion hours of HDTV! What now, Mr. 15 hours?
      5. Comcast is the devil and they will kill your dog. If you don't have a dog, they will give you one for the express purpose of killing it.
      6. Because I say so! Buy this! Do it! Do it now!
      7. ???
      8. Profit!!!!

      mission option: the mac supports video editing to insert sex with a mare into all your favorite shows.
    • Ya, you are missing the ability to backup your recordings so you can archive your favorite shows "for all time."

    • basically get the same functionality.

      Well, since the article is from the EFF, I bet this one does things that the comcast won't let you do, such as:

      - archive programs
      - move programs to a different device
      - save programs as long as you like
      - record whatever you want (despite the broadcast flag)

      (If you want to send me a dual g5 to test on, I'll probably think up a few others)

      Granted, $350 (or $4000) > $5/mo, but this is true for Media Center PCs as well, and they are so afraid of the broadcast flag, yo

    • I just got this box the other day and it is FANTASTIC. I had a Tivo as well and I think this thing is just head and shoulders above the Tivo. It's got most of the same features and is just much smoother than the Tivo (especially the guide). HDTV recording is just awesome (as well as dual tuner).

    • Re:Am I missing something here? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Jeremy Erwin ( 2054 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @07:38PM (#11300604) Journal
      Presumably, because Comcast will kowtow to the major media companies and start respecting the "broadcast flag." The hope is that this device will remain blessedly versatile after July of this year.

      However, suppose that some major media properties persuade Apple to rewrite their firewire drivers, necessitating a a similar driver update from ElGato. The question then becomes: Is ElGato legally required to cripple its software in the course of this update? Could one reinstate compatibility with the old, pre broadcast flag driver by rewriting portions of the Darwin source?

      Perhaps the best solution would be to build a Linux PVR server, possibly adding on a suitable mac client, a la vlc. After all, Linus Torvalds doesn't own an online media shop.

    • On Monday, comcast will install a $10 a month PVR with dual tuner and one that can record 15 hours of HDTV and 60 of regular TV. Why should I invest in a dual G5 power mac and an additional $350 to basically get the same functionality.

      Well, not everyone in this world lives in your country.

      Lots of people take it for granted that PVRss are available everywhere. They aren't. Here in Canada, I have never been able to buy a Tivo up here, because Tivo has never sold their devices up here. Why? Who the hel

      • Maybe because it takes time and trouble to set up a sales channel, and there are fewer potential customers in Canada than there are in Florida?

        No shit: There are blogs that get more readers in a month than the entire labor-force population of Canada. No kidding, honest-to-God blogs.

        I've got nothing personal against Canada. It's just that it kinda makes me scratch my head when I hear somebody ask, "Why is X available in America but not available in Canada?" That's a big "duh," as far as I'm concerned. Itt

        • I've got nothing personal against Canada. It's just that it kinda makes me scratch my head when I hear somebody ask, "Why is X available in America but not available in Canada?" That's a big "duh," as far as I'm concerned. Itty bitty market

          That's not the reason. Tivo at one time licensed their set-top box technology to other companies, including the likes of Sony. Sony already has channels here in Canada, and could have put boxes into their Sony Stores (which are in virtually every major mall in Canada

    • A) Because its fun.
      B) Because soon HDTV receivers will have Broadcast Flag
      C) Because Comcast is evil.

      Now why you'd have a Mac do it is beyond me. I'd just build an HDTV capable MythTV setup and have a lot more control over what goes into my system.

      • I thought about building my own but content is the problem. OTA programming is just a fraction of available HD programming. What capture card will decode comcast's signal? And how about if the evil company Comcast decided to change the encryption of their signal? Can they?
        • There's only a little HD programming available on Comcast right now anyway. If you mean digital cable, MythTV (like TiVo) has the capability to control a cable box using a serial or usb connection, or using an IR blaster.

          Me, I'd just grab a torrent.

      • I hope people don't take your casual claims as anything authoritative on the subject. Have you tried to "just build an HDTV capable MythTV setup"? If you follow the discussion on AVS forum of people trying to use the only linux HDTV board you might not be so sanguine about your prospects. The EyeTV product is priced higher than I'd like but once you purchase it you'll have something that just works.

        I've used their USB product for a while and it uses the same software. It is much less finicky than the corre
      • A) Because its fun.

        In various places around the world, there are groups of people that call themselves "polar bear." As far as I know, the tradition mainly goes back to Scandinavian immigrants to the United States; whether they brought the tradition over with them from their homelands or just made it up on the spot to mess with their new neighbors remains a mystery.

        The mission of these "polar bear clubs" is to go swimming in icy rivers and lakes, usually on New Year's Day. For example, on New Year's Day

    • No G5 needed now... (Score:5, Informative)

      by AaronD12 ( 709859 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @09:59PM (#11301389)
      Elgato Systems updated their software and it only requires a reasonably fast G4 system. My EyeTV 500 works perfectly on my Powerbook G4 1.25GHz laptop at full screen.

      -Aaron-

      • Yeah, but.. the screen on your 12" PB is only 1024x768, which is way smaller than "full frame" for HDTV. Have you tried outputting to a larger monitor or (ideally) an actual HDTV?

        Aldo, Elgato's site says Dolby Digital 5.1 sound output is only possible on a dual G5. Does anyone know if any other machines (esp. an iMac G5) can simply pass the DD stream somehow?

        Thanks
        Justin
      • Which would instantly make the rumored headless iMac G4 a VERY interesting device for this purpose... ... assuming it exists... which we'll find out tomorrow. You'd still be talking something just under $1,000, but given the capabilities, someone might find that worth it.
    • One reason might be early reports have the Comcast box a heinous monstrosity with an unacceptably crappy interface and a list of crippling 'quirks' that betray it's barely-into-beta status.

      Needless to say most Mac, and TiVo, users expect better...

  • iTele (Score:5, Informative)

    by ed 'g3' ( 231005 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @06:52PM (#11300362) Journal
    iTele [for os x] is free, works with generic digital tv tuner cards and supports the high definition picture for those regions where it is available, i.e. everywhere except the uk.

    http://www.defyne.org/dvb/ [defyne.org]
  • just think about not only being able to connect your iPod or DV camcorder or digital camera or flash media reader, but third party peripherals like this HDTV tuner to it. and it all being networked!
  • As a hacker, I constitute a circumvention device.

  • Comments (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Saturday January 08, 2005 @07:10PM (#11300479) Homepage
    OK, interesting gadget. I just have a few questions.

    Why do you need such a great CPU? The article says it's because the hidef MPEG2 content is decoded in software. Huh? I though graphics cards started doing MPEG2 assist and later complete MPEG2 decoding years ago? It that feature just not in the drivers, or was it dropped due to cost and faster CPUs? Guess you should budget in some more for an MPEG2 decoder card, but they are not easy to find anymore (at least not as easy as they were), they tend to require passthrough (I've never seen pass-through DVI, and would it handle dual link for 30" screens?), etc. Seems like a big problem.

    Only an antenna? If this thing can record HD and SD content (as long as it's digital), why not give it an HDMI connector so I could record off equiptment that has HDMI out? Or give it a DVI in for recording off that? Just an antenna seems.... measly.

    Interesting though. The CPU problem is not as bad as it sounds considering how many people would currently want to use their computer to timeshift full glory HD content. If you have the TV and such for that and you can afford this box, you can probably afford a computer to play the file (or at least an MEPG2 decoder card).

    • Re:Comments (Score:2, Informative)

      by Jozer99 ( 693146 )
      If you read the article, it clearly mentioned that although modern Mac graphics cards have hardware MPEG2 decoding, the APIs for accessing it are not documented by Apple for 3rd party manufaturers.
      • Oh, thanks. I read the article (most of it, not every word) so I must have missed that point. I guess to watch full hidef content, most computers will need help for a few years (dual 2+ ghz computers are not quite the "mainstream" yet), so maybe mpeg decoder cards will become more popular again.

        Everything old is new again.

    • Re:Comments (Score:3, Informative)

      by mkldev ( 219128 )
      Even when the hardware is doing some of the work, it's usually not doing all of it, a few specialized MPEG-to-video output cards notwithstanding. There are several different parts of playing back MPEG video, including: decompressing, deinterlacing (optional), scaling, color space conversion, etc. The hardware only provides the last one, and sometimes the next-to-last, IIRC. The actual decompression occurs in software (doing all the inter-frame math, etc.), as does deinterlacing, generally, assuming you a
      • There are several different parts of playing back MPEG video, including: decompressing, deinterlacing (optional), scaling, color space conversion, etc. The hardware only provides the last one, and sometimes the next-to-last, IIRC

        Depends on which card you're talking about, the old mpeg2 decoder cards that we used to play DVDs on Pentium 90s did everything. You fed it an mpeg2 stream and it did everything. You had to route your video out into its input, then hooked your monitor up to the dvd card so it co
    • "Why do you need such a great CPU? ... I though graphics cards started doing MPEG2 assist and later complete MPEG2 decoding years ago?"

      Because progressive full-res HDTV is 12 times as much data as what your DVD playback feature on your card supports?
      • Actually, there is a point. Nearly any Radeon can unload half the CPU needs for decoding over the air broadcasts. nVidia did not put this in until their 6xxx series. A single 2GHz P4 should be able to decode OTA transmissions on their own.

    • Re:Comments (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <wesley@felter.org> on Saturday January 08, 2005 @08:54PM (#11301026) Homepage
      why not give it an HDMI connector so I could record off equiptment that has HDMI out?

      And what is your Mac going to do with a >100MB/s uncompressed video stream? Oh, and HDMI is often encrypted.
  • With the exception of VHS downconverted archiving
    Can you...
    export the HDTV recordings to other media?
    archive the HDTV recordings?
    edit out portions of the HDTV recordings you want to discard or save?

    • Re:Can you.. (Score:3, Funny)

      by akac ( 571059 )
      1) Answered in the article.
      2) Answered in the article, and isn't it the same as #1?
      3) Answered in the article.

      Amazing what 3rd grade reading skills will do for you. And if you're still too lazy to read it - YES to all those questions because its all just MPEG2 after all.
      • My questions were in response to a specific post which evidently my post didn't get nested under. So it appears I am a looney idiot, which I assure you I am not, most of the time. The post I tried to reply to [slashdot.org] indicated a comcast solution was more cost effective and although it is I was trying to point out, too subtely evidently, some of the things his comcast box couldnt do that this solution would allow. And yes 1 and 2 are related, If you cant do 1 you cant do 2.

        note to self, express reality with more

  • GNU Radio (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by arose ( 644256 )
    THere is also GNU Radio [gnu.org]
    • Don't mod something as offtopic just because you're ignorant. GNURadio is VERY "on topic" since GNURadio can be used to receive over-the-air HDTV and stream the data to disk, for later demux and rendering.

      http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/hdtv-sample s.html

      GNU Radio - HDTV Snapshots Below are some single frame snapshots captured February 15, 2003. The source station was KSBW-DT, channel 10 (195 MHz), Salinas, CA. The program was "Law and Order", and the recording was made between 8 and 9 PM Pacific Sta

  • Been running MythTv for over a year now, and am curious if this thing throws std MPEG streams or something funky?

    The price is a little steep, but with accellerated playback on NVidia cards under X, it would rock on most recent Athlon systems. (2600+>)

  • Dual G5 requirement should be improved (Score:5, Informative)

    by tji ( 74570 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @07:38PM (#11300606)

    A dual G5 requirement for smooth HDTV playback is a big problem. You should be able to easily do this with a midrange G4 system.

    The problem is that Apple has not opened the API for the MPEG2 acceleration available in most of the video chips in Macs. ( The equivalent of DxVA in Windows, or XvMC in XFree86 ). In the x86 world, this takes the CPU requirement down from ~ 2.4GHz P4 to ~ 800MHz P3.

    Apple's DVD player uses the MPEG2 acceleration, but they don't allow others to use it. So, we're stuck with extremely high CPU requirements of dec oding those hi-res HDTV files.
    • I can attest that the need for a Dual G5 for smooth HDTV playback is utterly ridiculous. I have a dual 1 ghz G4 and HDTV is just fine, in 1080i. This is with Safari, Mail and iTunes open as well... Getting a good signal, on the other hand, is a problem. Does anybody have reccomendations on what Antenna to buy? I live in Berkeley, so the signal I'm getting is coming from San Francisco, which is across the bay. ~20 miles...
      • just go to http://www.avsforum.com and find the correct topic for your area. Exellent info on HDTV and other expensive AV equipment. You might also want to check out http://www.antennaweb.org for the general antenna info.
      • > Getting a good signal, on the other hand, is a problem. Does anybody have reccomendations on what Antenna to buy? I live in Berkeley, so the signal I'm getting is coming from San Francisco, which is across the bay. ~20 miles...

        20 miles across the bay should be pretty good for reception.. not too many obstructions.

        Most stations broadcast from Mt. Sutro, and all locals but KNTV (NBC 11/12) are UHF.

        I have had good results with are the Radio Shack Double Bowtie indoor antenna (it's not carried in-store
    • "In the x86 world, this takes the CPU requirement down from ~ 2.4GHz P4 to ~ 800MHz P3"

      That is a marketing lie which was commonly told a few years ago. There are HD tuner cards that specifically include hardware decoding on the card (not the video card) which people have used successfully in less powerful PC's. But using DxVA from a video card doesn't buy you much if you are using a Fusion card or some other software decoding solution.

      Also it is worth noting that although Apple's DVD player uses MPEG2 acc
      • > That is a marketing lie which was commonly told a few years ago.

        Actually, No.. DxVA is what makes the CPU requirements reasonable, even with the software decode products. The 2.4GHz -> 800MHz was specifically addressing DxVA offload of HDTV MPEG2 decode.

        I have two MyHD cards and two FusionHDTV cards. The MyHD cards have an onboard MPEG2 decoder and they display the HDTV output directly from the receiver card - not through your video card. It does the complete MPEG2 decode in hardware, so the

        • Re:Dual G5 requirement should be improved (Score:5, Informative)

          by steve_bryan ( 2671 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @03:52AM (#11302709)
          "Actually, No.. DxVA is what makes the CPU requirements reasonable, even with the software decode products. The 2.4GHz -> 800MHz was specifically addressing DxVA offload of HDTV MPEG2 decode."

          I know they claim that. What I was reporting is that it is a lie. I had a 700 MHz Athlon which was originally claimed to be sufficient for the Fusion I card (using DxVA) and it was not. I upgraded to a 1500 Athlon and finally the 2400+ which is sufficient for software decoding with DvXA assist. Without DxVA you get a more stable picture but it has to throw out every other scan line. I actually prefer that picture generally because it doesn't have the artifacts that you get with DxVA.

          If someone has an older box with a sub 1 GHz processor he will need to get a MyHD card to get good results. I wouldn't recommend Fusion cards to anyone with less than a 2 GHz processor. I am using the computer monitor. Maybe the picture from the DVI port gives better results with less CPU.

          It has been reported elsewhere in the comments that dual 1 GHz G4 Mac will produce good results with EyeTV 500. If that is the case then the results are not so starkly different. I'm sure the software is less finicky because I have and use EyeTV (I just use it with the EyeTV USB but it is the same software). It doesn't restart the Mac just because I commit the mistake of running VLC or some other video program. In fact on the Mac I have the option of having multiple programs running at the same time without causing a crash.
          • My experience has differed from yours. And, I think there are plenty of other reports out there to prove that MPEG2 acceleration is not a "lie". Do a google search and you'll find a lot. You'll also find a lot of comments on problems getting it working well. Or, you can even look at source code from the Linux apps implementing XvMC to see exactly what is being offloaded.

            I have had Fusion cards for almost two years, and I originally used it with a 1GHz P3. The HD playback with DxVA acceleration was g
            • My characterization was probably at least slightly too harsh. I didn't mean to imply that DxVA was no more than a hoax. To be more explicit I found the situation to be too fragile to be taken seriously. You needed to have just the right motherboard, drivers for the motherboard, video card, drivers for the video card. Once you arrived at an environment that "worked" you faced the possibility that updating any of the variables could undermine all that tinkering. If you do other things with your PC, like gamin
  • If I lived 15 miles to the west, on the other side of a hill, I would have great TV reception and this would be wonderful. As it is, I'm stuck with Comcast, and all their scrambled DRM bullshit, and it sucks to be me :-(

  • The broadcast flag is a Good Thing (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This may sound as troll, but hear me out:

    Times have changed since the days when VCRs were introduced. Back then, we had a few channels to choose from, and even fewer good programs. E.g., there were 2 or 3 sci-fi shows a week and if they were shown at the wrong timeslot you were SOL. Worse, video rentals hadn't been invented and tapes of TV shows even less. So back then, recording TV shows for time-shifting was quite useful.

    Nowadays, the good shows come out on DVDs which you can rent from the corner store
  • Would some other people please hop on the torrent for the HD LoTR sample [eff.org]? I'm getting a whopping 1.5 K/s down and 6.8 K/s up. :-)
  • When I asked EyeTV why it did not take advantage of the hardware acceleration included in the graphics cards installed in modern Macs, they explained that Apple has not made those interfaces easily accessible to third party developers. Enabling hardware acceleration is thus not likely to be in the cards for EyeTV's software in the near future.

    What exactly does this mean? Does OSX not export an API for 3rd party software to leverage video card's hardware?

  • There is No Reason For an FCC Mandate of Flags (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    There is no reason for FCC to mandate broadcast flags! The FCC mandate is to keep broad casters spectrums form overlapping, and in the good old days it made sure news coverage of elections was actually fair and balanced note sarcasm here. Their purpose never was and never should be to impose big brothers will of what we watch and when we watch it. I'm sick of the government forcing the will of a large corporation on individual citizens. I'm just waiting for trusted computing to delete this before I can p

  • MythTV on OSX - Soon (Score:3, Informative)

    by GameGod0 ( 680382 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @11:21PM (#11301806)
    I'd just like to throw in that over the past few months there have been TONS of patches added to MythTV [mythtv.org] that add OSX compatibility.
    I'm not sure how close Myth is to working completely on OSX, but I don't doubt that once it's working on OSX, it will be a formidable entry into the world of PVR software for this operating system.

  • QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Yaztromo ( 655250 ) on Saturday January 08, 2005 @11:36PM (#11301872) Homepage Journal

    I'm somewhat interested whether playback using Apple's QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback Component [apple.com] makes a significant difference here. It's only $30 CDN ($19.95 US -- I guess they haven't changed their pricing since the Canadian dollar gained on the US dollar), and doesn't require QuickTime Pro, so I imagine a non-dual G5 user who wanted to use this system to watch their captured video could just buy this.

    I'm tempted to buy this to test it out and post the results here. Does anyone here have the MPEG-2 playback add-on for QuickTime who can comment on this?

    Yaz.

    • I've used the MPEG-2 component to allow me to import some footage from DVD into Final Cut Express and found it to be incredibly buggy. It has about a 50% chance of crashing FCE when previewing the video clip. I don't think this is a file size limitation for FCE, since I regularly deal with 10GB DV files using it, and this was only a 2GB MPEG-2 file.
    • So... I have the QT MPEG-2 decoder.
      OS X 10.3.7
      1.5Ghz PB
      1GB RAM


      Finder.... restarts if one hits "play" on preview window
      QT... opens huge yyyyy x 1080 window, no audio, no video, crashes, sends report to Apple
      iDVD... can't import the file
      iMovie... starts to import the file, then interrupts import

      VLC Player... works, but image choppy when camera pans. Still, they do a lot better than Apple. Paused image quality is amazing.

      Cheers,
  • I know this is OT, but I've been keeping an eye one the Telly by Interact-Tv.com....it has come down in price and looks real appealing (features, open HW/SW and SDK).

    Does anyone have one, or know of any reviews / comparisons?

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