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Linux Looms Large in DVRs, PVRs 168

An anonymous reader writes "According to an article at LinuxDevices there's a new fanless digital entertainment center reference design based on Linux and the MythTV open source DVR (digital video recorder) software. The 'Royal Linux Media Center' runs ESG's Royal Linux OS on a Transmeta development board based on its Efficeon chip. Linux has been increasingly popular in DVRs and PVRs, with examples including TiVo (of course), HP's recently unveiled Linux media hub, i3's Mood box, Interact-TV's Telly, Siemens' Speedstream, VWB's MediaReady 4000, Amino's AmiNet500, Sharp's Galileo, Dream-Multimedia-Tv's Dreambox, NEC's AX10, and Sony's CoCoon, to name a few."
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Linux Looms Large in DVRs, PVRs

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  • by tuxter ( 809927 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:13PM (#11330052) Journal
    That's all well and good, but does it run Linux?
    Oh, fuck it!
  • by PornMaster ( 749461 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:13PM (#11330059) Homepage
    Linux is well poised for the appliance market... but I have to wonder when DRM and the DMCA will make it difficult, if not impossible, to provide the services on Linux needed to compete in the media space if DRM gets in the way. The simple way, I guess, is to put the DRM enforcement into hardware, but I think that leaves us all worse off in the end.
    • No, it will not be.

      They don't have to put it in hardware as long as they close the source for their software. DRM can be done on Linux, just not in opensource software.
    • DRM? I think subscription is the mighty blow. If there is any solution that is a 1-time purchase with no need to assemble/build anything. Work-out-of-box while being subscription-free. Then I am sold!

      Of course the quality has to be good too. Don't need all the features, basics will do.

      • Except nobody wants to "give away" subscription services. Look at xmltv. They had a very hard time keeping up with north american tv schedules because GIST and TV Guide constantly modified their listings to foil the screen scrapers. (They now have partnered with zap2it, who merely requires a montly survey of their subscribers.)

        With xmltv being open source, I suspect GIST had a techie or two whose job it was to keep current with it, analyze the source and ensure their website was quickly modified to bre

      • ic/tv1199.htm

        TiVo Basic service is free but is not available to stand alone TiVo Digital Video Recorders (DVRs), which are not intended for use without a subscription to the TiVo service. You can upgrade to TiVo Plus or to Product Lifetime service. For more information on the TiVo Product Lifetime service, go to What Is 'Product Lifetime Service'?

    • drm can be doen in an open source manner, too.

      linux doesn't guarantee that you can reflash the machine with your own modified code.

      besides.. "hardware" functionality IS largely software in an ever increasing way..
      • The GPL doesn't say legally that modifications to the software can only be made for machines which allow one to modify software.


        GPL also says that users can redistribute under later versions. And RMS has already hinted at cleaning it up to avoid just this kind of thing.


        The Spirit of the GPL is to provide software that people can modify and use however they want, without letting others take the software and make it proprietary. But by making it impossible to run custom software on the target ha
        • The Spirit of the GPL is to provide software that people can modify and use however they want, without letting others take the software and make it proprietary. But by making it impossible to run custom software on the target hardware, the use of Open Source becomes a marketing ploy and essentially a leeching strategy for development.

          I disagree. E.g. Acme produces a neat digital camera which runs imbedded Linux. There is no easy way to update this software.

          I run a company, Nadir Products, and I want to g
        • You're correct that it's against the spirit of the GPL - but it's still the direction some companies are going in. "You can have the source, but you won't be able to run any modified code."
    • You are right, DRM enforcement in hardware is worse off. Palladium / Trusted Computing, in whatever incarnation, is still being pushed at us, this time as a way of supposedly making a computer more secure. If successful, it would either:

      1.) Make Linux buy a license for every version of binary that we use. Licenses would be controlled by Microsoft, so this would be prohibitively expensive, unless we can all settle on a single binary kernel, essentially making Linux proprietary -- as in, individual users
      • Just like the XBox. The Xbox is a "Trusted Computer" It has DRM in the bias that requires microsoft to ok a software before it can run. Just check how many people have cracked that bios open. Once cracked you can play those DRM video and transcode them to something that can be posted on the net.

    • have intellectual properly laws always been so far behind technology?
    • Why? A company that is building and selling a Linux-based DVR/PVR can just license the DRM just like any other company can. Heck, Red Hat could license the MS media formats today and deliver them to their customers if Red Hat thought it would increase sales.

      Why would a company selling a Linux based device not be allowed to license DRM while a company basing their DVR/PVR on some other OS be allowed to license the DRM? It doesn't work that way. If DRM ever becomes big in devices, a Linux based device w

      • Your absolutely right.
        The big companies could license DRM infested codec keys and codecs from MS.
        When I make changes to linux and distribute that code, I would not be licensed to give the MS codecs with it.
        The executable I produce will be different to the licensed version, and I would lose DRM rights.

        Only the person at the top of the ladder will win.
  • by testing124 ( 772675 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:14PM (#11330065)
    Play WMV9 ?
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Why would anyone care?
    • Send me a WMV9 file, and I'll attempt to play it on mplayer. I think most of these can have the Windows DLLs, so, probably.

      I am and I fear no spam.
      • WMV9 is the one that has the nice "feature" where it will open up a browser window and load an arbitary page from the web simply by trying to view a movie.

        You need to (from reputable companies) purchase a license for that one media file before it can be played, the web page displayed should be a purchase/more info page for the artist.

        Adware spreading virus infections have noticed this now.
        • But then you only need one person to purchase rights and store the file in a decrypted state. You can't do that with WMP but that's just a minor hurdle. (Even if you don't have a player which does it you could always just make a decoder in software.)

          I can't really see how this would be implemented securely in software.
    • The VWB MediaReady 4000 unit will play Windows Media sometime in Q2 of this year.
    • MythTV uses mplayer (or any program of your choosing actually) to play back video files, and mplayer supports WMV9 with the binary codecs installed. Not sure if the commercial offerings support this, but a DIY solution certainly would.

      And to balance things out, does a solution based on Windows Media Center support AAC and OGG [Vorbis/Theora]?
    • I have a Audiotron which runs Windows CE(or whatever it is called) and after sites have begun to use WMV9 for their radio streams, i have been unable to play most of them.
      And the few of them that does work, I can only play at a horrible rate.

      So even with a device running Windows, you can't be sure that it will work.
  • Dish Network (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Microlith ( 54737 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:16PM (#11330081)
    IIRC, Dish also uses linux in all of their set top boxes, including their DVR units.

    So yeah, linux seems seriously popular in the various DVRs that are available. Is there a source that lists known hacks/mods available for them?
    • My only problem with all these people running out to adopt Linux:

      Further commercialization and exploitation can only add to politics and power struggles.

      You also have to ask yourself:

      What have these companies given back to the community? They have saved considerable resources by riding on free code. It only seems fitting they write a few checks to a foundation or two. Maybe release some of their own code? No? Hmm.
      • They only have to give back their modifications, nothing more, nothing less. The developers of Linux and any other GPL'd software released their code under the GPL knowing this. The GPL is a deal between the Linux developers and those who put Linux in their devices.
      • What have these companies given back to the community? They have saved considerable resources by riding on free code. It only seems fitting they write a few checks to a foundation or two. Maybe release some of their own code? No? Hmm.

        Ok, see it this way - you want to start a company, the advantages to using linux seem to be:

        1. You get a "free ride". I.e. less development costs, etc. This is important when starting a company with minimal funding.
        2. You find a bug in Linux that's seriously affecting your
    • Re:Dish Network (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dj245 ( 732906 )
      Is there a source that lists known hacks/mods available for them?

      I doubt it, considering that they download updates all the time. I recently got an autoupdate that added DishPass (Like Tivo SeasonPass I guess, I don't have a Tivo) and 3 new recording functions for my Dishplayer 522 (proclaimed by many to be the best value PVR at a piddling $5 a month and no one-time fee). Its good to see companies give us some value for our monthly fees in the form of new features. But it probably breaks any modding a

  • I've been looking into building my own MythTV box from scratch, but now I'm considering waiting for this to come out. My concern is that ESG is going to modify the MythTV code enough that you'll be forced to get updates through them, as oppose to using the binaries from their site.

    As an aside, does anyone know where I can a document on how to connect a MythTV box to a Comcast High-definition cable box?

  • Didn't Microsoft just recently team up with TIVO? []
    Anyone have any thoughts on how this will effect TIVOs choice of Linux as their OS?
  • Another one (Score:3, Funny)

    by gmhowell ( 26755 ) <> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:25PM (#11330176) Homepage Journal
    I heard there's some hacked together thing called Teevough (sp??) that uses it as well? Anyone heard of this Teavoe?

    Tey Veaux?
  • The king of Linux DVRs is not MythTV, but VDR. VDR is a complete Tivo replacement, with built in simultaneously multichannel recording, TV guide, etc.
    • by gl4ss ( 559668 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:56PM (#11330413) Homepage Journal
      .. which mythtv doesn't then have? because that's what you're implying by the way you're puffing them.

      looking at the features, mythtv looks like it does more, a LOT more.

      including stuff like picture in picture, multi card support - and get this, transparent multi machine support: "Distributed architecture allowing multiple recording machines and multiple playback machines on the same network, completely transparent to the user.", rss, mpeg4, mpeg2 decoders/encoders and a whole lot of other stuff.

      maybe mythtv gets mentioned more often because it does more and is prettier? anyhow, if you say that one thing is better why not back it up with features the other doesn't have
    • The king of Linux DVRs is not MythTV, but VDR. VDR is a complete Tivo replacement, with built in simultaneously multichannel recording, TV guide, etc.

      ... and a huge, very active and international user community at [], with the backing of what is probably Germany's most renowned IT publisher (c't [] etc.). However, quite possibly now there is a dreadful DRM specter looming for this project as for every other Linux TV device...

  • Make it, I'll buy it (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pchan- ( 118053 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:31PM (#11330224) Journal
    Someone out there make a streamlined tivo-like box (using the reference board above), having the following properties:

    1) Slick design. Not a computer in a funny case, something with a home electronics feel. Fanless!
    2) Good remote control.
    3) Hardware MPEG4 encoding/decoding
    4) Open source tivo-like software (not mythtv, something usable).
    5) Quality TV output and sound hookups.
    6) Open firmware (no DRM, no proprietary files, no restrictions, hardware documentation provided).
    7) Ethernet and/or wifi and/or USB.

    I'll buy it. I'll buy two, one for my parents. It should work out of the box like a tivo, but be hackable by anyone that desires to do so. Make your money selling the hardware, not subscriptions. The community will take care of improving the software (which will make your hardware even more attractive).
    • How about a mac mini? It's pretty close on points 1, 4, and 7.
      • How about a mac mini? It's pretty close on points 1, 4, and 7

        That's a damn good example. In fact, it's a DVD player too, as an added bonus. The primary thing that is lacking is a coax cable input and RCA outputs. A USB/firewire video capture device takes care of the first part (this would also cover the hardware encoding part of it). A DVI to RCA would do the other end, but I'd be a little worried about signal quality (then again, I should probably get a TV with DVI). So it's pretty close. Though no
      • Some MythTV developers are working on an OS X port.

        When I first saw the mac mini, the first thing I thought was it would make a sweet Myth frontend.
    • I have a problem with #3.

      I can understand the philosophical reasons for #4 and #6, and I can understand the practicalities of everything else.

      But why not, say, hardware Theora encoding/decoding?

      Why not software encoding/decoding, if it was just as fast?

      Let me add a couple more things I want:

      8) Upgradable. (buy upgrades from and download them through bittorrent)

      I don't care how big the hard drive, I want to be able to add a bigger one later. I care much more about whether I can upgrade the
      • by pchan- ( 118053 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:23PM (#11330671) Journal
        But why not, say, hardware Theora encoding/decoding?

        Because hardware that encodes/decodes Theora does not exist to the best of my knowledge. that, and MPEG 4 (and its varients) is widely supported by many systems/devices now (it's the video equivalent of mp3).

        Why not software encoding/decoding, if it was just as fast?

        Okay. I'm not fundamentally opposed to this, especially on the decoding side. A hardware encoder gives you the opportunity to use a much lower power (ie, no fans needed, lower power consumption) general purpose processor. This also generally brings the cost of the hardware down (which any embedded systems engineer like myself is obsessed with).

        8) Upgradable
        I thought harddrive upgrading was implicit in 6, but might as well make it explicit. In fact, sell it to me without a harddrive, just an image of the firmware on a CD. Further, since the firmware is entirely open, you can boot whatever you wish.

        9) No reliance on proprietary/Windows stuff.

        And btw, how do you get the content of subscriptions, without the subscription?

        Easy: you buy a subscription, but not from the hardware manufacturer. Instead of trying to make the money back on loss-leading hardware, the hardware people are out of the picture now. I can buy a subscription at a super-low rate from anyone who will sell it to me (competition), scrape it from a website, type it in myself. And when I stop paying my subscription, my device doesn't stop working.
      • Why not software encoding/decoding, if it was just as fast?

        I'll tell you why: because requirement #1 specified fanless. You can't do this with software encoding. Software is much less efficient than dedicated hardware, so you'd need a very powerful processor to encode and decode simultaneously (especially if you have multiple tuners), and of course that 2-3 GHz processor would require a big fan.

        Hardware encoders don't require fans. The Hauppauge PVR 250 cards do hardware MPEG2 encoding, and the PVR 35
    • Looks like a perfect job for the new mac.
    • It exists...check out the MediaPortal project ( Well, this is everything but #1...but as a Slashdot reader I'm sure you have no qualms about putting together an elegant little box. If you want to drop some real cash...check out cases from the german manufacturer "Hush". They're awesome.
    • Make money from the hardware and not subscriptions? Where's the content going to come from? Free downloads? Look at what happened with mp3's....companies tried to make money selling mp3 players for our free music....the music industry tained the P2P networks...and then apple introduces the ipod and they're making money hand over fist with itunes. Why go through the hassle of bad mp3's, viruses, popups, spyware when you can pay a reasonable amount for just the songs you want. The same w
      • Sorry dude, but the shows won't get made unless someone pays for more than just the hardware.

        The shows are already being made, hundreds of channels worth, for free. They're being broadcast over the air, and on cable. We already have to pay for cable subscriptions. What makes you think we need to pay for access to the shows when we already get them for free?

        Similarly, CDs are selling now in record numbers, even with the growing popularity of MP3 players.
    • [] has some excellent boxes. Theyre not cheap though, but very good and silent at around ~21 dB @ 1 meter. Google for reviews if youre interested.
    • 1) Slick design. Not a computer in a funny case, something with a home electronics feel. Fanless!

      You know, a lot of DVD players out there (perhaps one you own) are just fanless computers in funny cases.

      3) Hardware MPEG4 encoding/decoding

      I've found that hardware encoders are complete crap in general. With good software codecs, you can get better quality, in something like 1/4 the space.

      Most people have only used Divx/Xvid, and think a CPU isn't fast enough for realtime MPEG-4 encoding. Use anything b

  • I am curious, has anyone here ever seen, used, bought a Telly from Interact-TV? If so, what was your experience? Good - Bad - Ugly?
    • My dad bought one of these, and I have played with it a bit. Its pretty cool, but it is a little "buggy". Sometimes there are glitches in video playback, once in a while the unit just "freezes". You can ssh into it and poke around, but everything is pretty obfuscated and certainly not trivial to figure out enough to know whats wrong with it.

      In general, its pretty neat, but not quite good enough to "just work" like you want a set top box to. Nothings worse than having your geeky toy screw up movie night
  • by rbrander ( 73222 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:42PM (#11330307) Homepage
    Dang. I was on the brink of either getting a Telly or building my own MythTV using a Shuttle box with Intel. Now I see that there are six other products besides the Telly, and more coming.

    My plans are starting to look like "early adopter impatience"...yes, yes, there's always a better system coming out, ut's never the perfect time to buy in, yada yada. But! I don't want to buy JUST before the cost/benefit curve goes through an elbow.

    I'm getting a feeling that 2005 is the Year of the Elbow for DVRs.
  • by Ridgelift ( 228977 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @10:46PM (#11330342)
    Over the last 5 years Microsoft and their cronies have been crowing about who's going to "own the livingroom". The idea has been to get away from the PC and onto the TV.

    I'm sure Linux making such deep inroads isn't going to sit well with Gates and Ballmer. I'm also sure they will attack Linux with all their legal and marketing muscle. Expect to see a bloodbath over this one.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I think the most appropriate comment from television and satellite companies to Microsoft would be "Your reputation precedes you."
  • Yep, as I look at the full page ad by HP in this PC magazine that says "Windows XP is the best choice for your home media needs" I really don't think HP is your friend. It's one thing to whole heartedly support open source (IBM), it's another to support it as a sideline.

    • HP is a whore like IBM. They'll sell anything to get your money. They don't care if it's Windows, Linux, UNIX, x86, RISC, mainframe, whatever. If it sends bucks their way, it'll be in their catalog.
      • Re:HP aint cool (Score:2, Insightful)

        by ColMustard ( 698424 )

        HP is a whore like IBM. They'll sell anything to get your money. They don't care if it's Windows, Linux, UNIX, x86, RISC, mainframe, whatever. If it sends bucks their way, it'll be in their catalog.

        Yes, you're right. How dare these rotten companies try to earn money! We have too many businesses trying to sell stuff to consumers in order to make money. The nerve! What whores.

        Seriously though, you are a moron. Why should companies care about what software their devices run but for the fact of profit

  • open source hardware (Score:2, Informative)

    by m0llusk ( 789903 )
    A potentially interesting example not mentioned is Street Fire Sound [] which has an open source hardware offering.
  • Well I hope with all these companies using open source applications that they give back to the community. Either by funding some of the developers or donating to project.

    It would be unfortunate to see companies taking the results and making a profit, but not giving back to those that put the time in to make the product.
    • Do you use Free or Open Source software? What do *you* give back?
  • DREAMBOX is AWESOME (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cRueLio ( 679516 ) <cruelio@msn. c o m> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:07PM (#11330504) Homepage Journal
    I have a Dreambox and let's just say that it has some *ahem* special capabilities when it comes to satellite television. And of course, it runs Linux (currently an unpatched 2.6.9-rc1 ppc kernel). Good stuff.
    It's DVR capabilities are also improving daily, thanks to an active CVS repository where Enigma, (which is like MythTV) is being developed by people all over the world.
    Visit my forum Open Dreambox North America [] for specific info for usage in the states and canada :)
  • Why not VIA (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SunFan ( 845761 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:08PM (#11330511)

    Some of VIA's CPUs have built-in compression and encryption hardware that would seem perfect for a DVR.
  • My TV runs Linux (Score:4, Interesting)

    by timbck2 ( 233967 ) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <2kcbmit>> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:09PM (#11330521) Homepage
    Seriously. I bought a Sony HDTV LCD projection TV for Christmas, and was surprised to see that it came with a GPL. It's running one of the real-time embedded Linux platforms (I forget which one).
  • by oblique303 ( 848812 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:10PM (#11330534) Homepage
    This reference design is neat, but any commercial implementation would be in violation of international patent law.

    MythTV currently relies on libavcodec on the backend to do video compression/decompression. The libavcodec library implements the various MPEG compression algorithms, which are *very* vigerously protected by the LA MPEG patent pool group.

    Any commercial implementation of a DVR using MythTV would be at extreme risk of prosecution by the LA MPEG group for unauthorized usage of the MPEG patents.

    It would be very nice to see MythTV transitioned to use the Theora ( video codec, as this is a patent-free video compression / decompression library.

  • As a long time user of myth, I kind of resent a company coming in and slapping some hardware together and selling it for the small fact that a lot of people have spent a lot of time making sure Myth works for a wide variety of hardware (hauppage pci, pvr 250/350, matrox g200, etc.). Although we do need a fanless option. Tivo is not even fanless. The project's soul tends to be a very good frontend to video frames coming off a v4l/2 hardware card.
    • No, it is still on .16
      CVS is quite stable righ now as well, so I would expect .17 to comeout sometime soon, but there isn't a .18, the article is wrong (shocking I know)
    • I didn't know .17 came out yet, to tell the truth. I love my Mythbox (it's my favorite box to tinker with) but documentation is still a bit on the shy side. is Ok, but the main site is pretty drag.

      Having to read through a commits archive to see what's coming and when is still rough.
  • Comcast PVR (Score:3, Interesting)

    by CmdrSanity ( 531251 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:52PM (#11330927) Homepage
    The one problem I have had \w PVRs is getting the digital channels to work correctly. My old tivo wouldnt do this (maybe series 2 does?).

    Anyways, I recently joined the beta program for the Comcast PVR. [] It is actually running a stripped-down version of windows media center. Now, I hate comcast, but I have to admit this device solves all the problems I had \w my Tivo. 1) the digital channels work 2) the recommendations are less silly 3) it only cost 4 dollars a month extra. I would *much* rather give my money to tivo, but comcast will have them beat once this device goes public.
  • Why so special? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BobSutan ( 467781 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @11:59PM (#11330981)
    Wht do manufacturers keep coming up with special names and looks for their PVR/DVRs? Why not take the approach that made VCRs ubiqutous and have a general design that everyone knows and will not be afraid to buy. If everytime someone walks into a store and sees 10 different versions of what are essentially the same device, they're going to inevitably get confused. Its already tough enough getting folks to shed their VCRs for a digital replacement so why compound the issue? In my opinion commodidty and simplicity is what will drive the DVR/PVR market to the levels of market penetration (or saturation if you will) that VCRs have already achieved. Whenever something whiz-bang enters the market this always seems to happen and is eventually later "fixed" by the companies that make it simple enough for Joe Sixpack to own and operate, which is a point I hope we're quickly approaching. Until then the standalone DVR/PVRs will be a fractured market fighting to stay alive. Don't get me wrong, I love the ability to space & time-shift my stuff in a digial format, but too many options/features can lead to a divergence in the selling points that may end up killing any advanced funtionality they offer (assuming costs don't do the trick beforehand).
  • You forgot one (Score:2, Informative)

    by d3ac0n ( 715594 )
    You forgot the Prismiq media player, and the soon to be launched Prismiq media center. [] []
  • The problem with most of these devices is their interface - too complex for grandma. It's like the blinking VCR clock to the n'th degree. People don't quite understand what it is these expensive boxes do in the first place, and the frequently cruddy interfaces are just one more hurdle to overcome.

    Until someone comes along who can successfully explain what these DVR gadgets do to John Q. Public and slap an easy to use interface on them the average NASCAR fan can navigate, they're going nowhere fast in the
    • Actually, these VDRs are much simpler to use than VCRs have ever been. VCRs have the distinct disadvantage of relying on the user to know exact times, and having to change media frequently.

      VDRs offer smooth, easy menus and pull down the listings for the user to browse, and hit record on a program. Even optionally setting up recurring recording based on series title. Browsing listings and directly specifying operations is a *lot* easier than looking up listings, programming a VCR for each and every occur
  • by Linuxathome ( 242573 ) on Wednesday January 12, 2005 @01:50AM (#11331706) Homepage Journal
    Those of you who'd rather watch satellite programming, don't forget to check out VDR []. Add a cheap PCI card [] to your PC and you can be time-shifting satellite programming in no time.

  • The developers of KnoppMyth, a knoppix distro combined with MythTV, will be demoing their easy to use PVR distro at SCALE 3x [] Free exhibit hall passes are available with the promo code "free".

  • All I want is a silent MythTV frontend that can do HDTV decode.

    I have been looking and looking and looking without much luck.
  • Hi. I would be very interested if someone could suggest or reccommend software that functions like MythTV or any of the products mentioned in the summary above, but which does not have TV functionality and instead focusses on music.

    I have a miniITX board that I would like to use as a music server. Audio out would go through to my HiFi. Video out would be to my TV. control would be through remote control.

    any thoughts?

    • Fascinating enough, there is a MythMusic module for MythTV for such a purpose.

      Other than that, I don't know much (I actually never used MythMusic), but I've found writing such an application in python, using pygame, pyogg (so it can run sans X, unlike mythtv) is actually pretty straightforward.
  • Where does the guide info come from? That seems like the most important part. And the part that you pay $12/mo. for w/Tivo.

APL hackers do it in the quad.