Opening Salvo Filed In MGM v. Grokster 90
Aire Libre writes "The first brief on the merits before the Supreme Court in MGM Studios v. Grokster was filed Friday (January 21, 2004) by the Video Software Dealers Association. The brief suggests that while p2p systems may be used for infringing and noninfringing uses, courts should consider whether technologies may be used to reduce infringing uses without over-burdening the system provider, freedom of speech for non-infringing uses (including by copyright owners who want p2p systems to be used to reach their audiences) or freedom of competition (including first sale doctrine principles, and competition in providing all intermediate software and services). Bringing a retailer perspective, it strikes a balance of respect for copyright and respect for the limits of those copyrights. The brief is available here (in PDF)."
What's with the over dramatic /. titles again? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What's with the over dramatic /. titles again? (Score:2, Funny)
Just be glad he toned it down from the original "Ragnarok [wikipedia.org] looms in MGM v. Grokster!!!"
Re:What's with the over dramatic /. titles again? (Score:3, Insightful)
Huh? (Score:2, Funny)
What is this "respect for copyright" you speak of?
timothy, an FYI: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:timothy, an FYI: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:timothy, an FYI: (Score:2)
Re:timothy, an FYI: (Score:1)
The suit filed WAS the salvo fired. Leave the poor nits alone. They're not bothering anybody. No need to be picking on them.
Re:timothy, an FYI: (Score:2)
A suit is someone you hire... or fire. See lawyer.
But if you want to be literal... imagine a 16 gun barque lobbing of lawyers (suits) at MGM.
Slash Watch, an FYI: (Score:2)
-- Family Guy
I think a more important question is: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2, Insightful)
You just redefine the new activity as illegal. Drunk driving is defined as illegal, but the vast majority of drunks don't actually injure others on the road. No one seems to disagree that their rights shouldn't be preserved, though.
There are other precedents, too. Certain guns are illegal, despite the 2nd amendment. Why couldn't the courts rule certain software illegal? Software doesn't even have it's own amendment protecting
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Here, the case is coming to the Supreme Court. Although there is not a Constitutional provision for it, the Supreme Court tends to take things like future technological setbacks into account before handing down a
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
The second amendment uses the word "infringed" to describe what "shall not be" done to "the right to keep and bear arms." I ask you this - if you have a patent on something and s
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Try to look up murders/population for a gun-ban country and a non-ditto. You might learn something :)
Then check on the accident rate of gun owners and their children. You might learn something.
In fairness, most gun-ban countries do not ban gun as such. They require you to hold a license, which you have to apply for. I do not think it is very difficult to obtain
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Unfortunately, I cannot dig up the change rate in murders for either country. Perhaps you have a source?
Remember, the crime rates says nothing about the impact. Guns or no guns have little bearing on thieving, embezzling and common violence. In fact, I would expect an increase in violence since the violent people beat each other up instead of shooting them :)
Also, it takes a lot of time before gun bans works for the positive side. In the beginning, there is still plenty loose guns in the hands of the shad
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Did you know that it is considered arson to burn down your own house that you fully own!?
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Can you take away rights of the innocent in order to prevent illegal actions? To me... outlawing p2p (which on its own is legal) to stop illegal file transfers is like outlawing driving cars in order to stop people from speeding."
Continuing your analogy, the goal of various pieces of litigation and legislation as of late is to force P2P software vendors to act in a more responsible manner. I suppose you could compare this to legislation to require cars to pass minimum crash standards and to include sa
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Of course, there are very few roads which permit driving anywhere near that fast. I believe many states in the US require vehicles to be sold with the speed limitation.
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Wow, that I didn't know. Any idea if the same is true in other countries? (I've certainly not heard anything like that reported over here, and there are plenty of high performance cars sold here)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
This document [abd.org.uk] is quite dated (1995!), but it seems speed limiters were suggested for all automobiles in the UK, but it was eventually dropped. I was not able to find very much at all about limiters for regular vehicles, so I would say they are not required over there.
This report [ltsa.govt.nz] from 20
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
I was reading an article by someone - they took an old car, used a ROM programmer, and altered the car's program to remove the governer (along with some other tweaks).
Im not sure of the legality of reprogramming your car's ROM, but do check with your dealer about upgrades. Just like BIOS get flashes, some cars do too. (for example one model had chronic transmission breakdown - a ROM update resolved the issue somehow)
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
Are you sure that they are speed limiters and not RPM limiters? Many motorcycles do in fact have rev limiters which kick in at or just beyond redline, but they work in every gear. In first you might be limited to 75 MPH, but in second, you could hit 90. And so on up through top gear (about 155MPH at 9k RPM on my bike).
The purpose has nothing to do with limiting the speed at which your wheels turn (MPH), but everything to do with preventing you from fragging your motor. Most cars top out at 120 or so simpl
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:1)
It's fairly easy to say "No road in America has a speed limit of over 110mph, so we expect all cars to have 120mph speed limiters."
It's fairly easy. IT doesn't infringe on any legal use of the vehicle. Presumably if you want to hit the racetrack, you can modify the car legally.
With file transfer applications, it's far more compliated. To make an application taht can't break the law is like making a gun that can't break the law. How am I, the developer, supposed to have the
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
How do you tell a computer to not transmit copyrighted information (without it already being tagged in some unremovable, unmodifiable DRM container, in which case it wouldn't matter anyway)? If I send you a file that's not named like a known song, doesn't hash to a known song, and doesn't have a "sound print"
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
Responsible for what? And responsible to whom?
Are VCR manufacturers responsible for anyone who uses a VCR to commit copyright infringment? Well according to the US Supreme Court they are not. And according to the general public any such attack on VCR's would be considered pretty much insane. And that was the exact basis of the ruling that P2P authors were not liable if someone else happens to make use that software while commiting infringment.
There are certainly people wh
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
If you read the brief (which is a rather long read, especially by /. standards), that is one of the core issues discussed by the VSDA. They argue that in the Betamax case Sony won largely because there was no remedy that could reduce the probability and gravity of copyright infringement without creating an unduly large burdon on others. Although not specifically addressed in Betamax, VSDA noted these burdons included First Am
Re:I think a more important question is: (Score:2)
If one accepts their argument, if the court accepts their agrument, it is a blank check for the MPAA to again attack VCRs through the courts! The MPAA merely needs to make less burdensome demands.
I think there's an interesting tell-tail in their argument. They f
P2P use is mandatory (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:P2P use is mandatory (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:P2P use is mandatory (Score:1)
Re:P2P use is mandatory (Score:2)
This is a case of MGM suing Grokster because they are (in the eyes of MGM) operating in an irresponsible manner that's causing financial harm to MGM. They're not suing the people who run DNS servers. Nobody should seriously worry about the Internet going away as a result of this action.
Re:P2P use is mandatory (Score:3, Insightful)
You do NOT decide a case and create law based on whether you are sympathetic to the current defendant or not. You cannot willy-nilly imprison or sue anyone you dislike and randomly ruling to protect anyone you do like. We live by the rule of law, and if you make a BAD rule so you can "get at" someone you dislike then that rule *is* going to equally apply to those you do like, such as the Domain Name System.
The law is tha
the real question is... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:the real question is... (Score:2)
Rheinquist will participate only as a tie-breaker and probably only in cases where a final decision is urgent. I can't see him spending what limited time and resources may remain to him on something like Grokster.
DRM-Free Deposits (Score:5, Insightful)
While MGM's position may be "balanced", there's always one thing that irks me about DRM: it makes it impossible to use in the public domain later.
The very least a movie/music/software company must do to gain my approval is to deposit their materials to the Library of Congress unencumbered and DRM-free.
Copyright is supposed to let creators make money on their work for a limited time in exchange for making it freely available later.
Obligatory Disclaimer: IANAL
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:3, Insightful)
It's obvious that you didn't RTFA, but how about at least reading TFS before commenting.
The party considered to have a "balanced" position here is not MGM, it is the Video Software Dealers Association.
I can guarantee you that MGM's brief will be considerably less tolerant of P2P.
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:2)
Yes. And they also discuss the issue of DRM and that any remedy in this case (such as DRM) should not expand the copyright holders rights to allow them to effectly stop consumers from using the works legally, including selling (transfer of title) or legal copying of the work, which presumably includes fair use, expired copyrights, etc.
BTW, I'm not sure I'd got so far as to say the VSDA pos
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:2)
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. However, there's a way around this - see this /. article [slashdot.org] from a few days ago. Basically, the Germans have a copyright system that's roughly comparable to what we have in the US. But there's a way to exempt certain entities that are supposed to serve the public. That's why the German national library (which is comparable to the Library of Congress in tha
When only libraries can crack.... (Score:2)
I don't see how requiring a library to employ a staff of cryptographers (and soon electrical engineers) to preserve a fracti
Re:DRM-Free Deposits (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Yes, we do (Score:1)
Are you saying that there's something more to be had from statements like:
"Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day."
than from
"You make me wanna la la, la la la, la la, la la la la la la la la la" ???
What if you advertise as P2P (Score:1)
This is not good for Grokster (Score:2, Insightful)
What is an anti-piracy measure? (Score:2)
the lawsuit was filed precisely because Grokster refused to incorporate any anti-piracy measures into its network.
How can a piece of software determine whether a contract exists between the owner of a copyright and the distributor of a work on a network and if so, whether the terms of said contract permit each instance of distribution? Could you describe how a practical anti-piracy measure might work?
Re:What is an anti-piracy measure? (Score:2)
Re:What is an anti-piracy measure? (Score:1)
SnoFraud? (Score:2)
If this is true, than perhaps technology such as SnoCap could be used
From the page you linked [businessweek.com]:
From the SNOCAP FAQ:
Re:SnoFraud? (Score:1)
Re:This is not good for Grokster (Score:2, Informative)
The RIAA discovered that it was not effective in the least. People would simply rename the files.
Considering there is no way effective way (that I know of) to teach Grokster to identify content that should not be shared, I really don't see an alternative to creating a database of hashes or filename patterns, neither of which could stop the sharing.
In other words, Grokster is likely re
Re:This is not good for Grokster (Score:1)
I'm talking about whatever technology Napster implemented afterwards that eliminated pirated content. Some sophisticated audio analysis technology that I'm too lazy to dig up.
But Grokster is refusing because they will go out of business if piracy is banned from their networks.
Re:This is not good for Grokster (Score:1)
I didn't realise Napster had that. If it could accurately filter out the blacklisted content and it was available to the Grokster developers, then I can understand requiring Grokster to implement it.
...Unbiased, indeed. (Score:2, Insightful)
Doubtful. It's neither affordable, nor conven
Re:...Unbiased, indeed. (Score:2, Insightful)
Opening salvo? (Score:3, Funny)
Beep. Beep. Beep.
[falling tone]
[explosion]
"Battleship hit!"
Balanced? Hardly. (Score:3, Insightful)
The VSDA can probably see which way the wind's blowing and is trying to limit the damage to them.
Why the tech solution won't work (Score:3, Insightful)
> should consider whether technologies may be used to reduce infringing uses without over-burdening the system provider
This is an impossible goal. Here's why:
Every automated solution for reducing copyright infringement over P2P has always had one thing in common: sniffing and filtering data at some level.
Every data-sniffing solution has one of two basic architectural directions: centralized or distributed. If you pursue the centralized direction, you will rapidly encounter enormous scaling problems. If you pursue the distributed direction, you will rapidly encounter enormous management problems.
These difficulties are tremendously compounded by the fact that neither the P2P developers, the ISPs, nor their customers have any natural incentive for doing any of this. The "incentive" can come only from the heavy fist of the law.
The natural reluctance to deploy these unwanted, legally-mandated solutions will inevitably result in a "swiss cheese" environment. We know from past experience that massive numbers of people can learn very quickly where the holes are in the swiss chesse that allow them unfiltered access to the content they seek.
And that's the best case scenario. A more realistic scenario will be something like a repeat of SDMI, which failed so miserably that the public wasn't even mildly inconvenienced by it.
Opening Salvo? (Score:1)
Very Bad Indeed (Score:1)
The issue isn't P2P itself. As many have said, the technology is perfectly legal and extremely useful. The issue is what bad actors are doing with P2P.
Both the technology sector and the content industry have to realize that there is an