DrinkOrDie Warez Trader to be Extradited to U.S. 686
femto writes "Hew Raymond Griffiths, alleged to be one of the leaders of the warez group DrinkOrDie, is to be extradited to the United States after losing an appeal. The case is of interest as the appeal was based on the fact that during the offences, alleged to have been committed in the US, the accused did not leave Australia."
According to US Customs (Score:5, Funny)
If these guys don't have eye patches and peg legs I am going to be SO disappointed.
Aarrrrrrrr.
Re:According to US Customs (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I can see extradition for somethin glike murder or rape - but copyright infringement?!
Re:According to US Customs (Score:2)
Yes, let's (Score:5, Funny)
--George Carlin
Re:According to US Customs (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:According to US Customs (Score:5, Insightful)
and it is not like he has been convicted yet either so he is an innocent man. He was not in the US so I for one am shocked that his own country would throw him to the wolves rather than deal with it themselves. If he has broken the law then he should face that in the country where he broke the law. I am severely disapointed with Oz over this one. I thought they had more balls than to be bullied like this.
Re:According to US Customs (Score:3, Interesting)
But here the government is agreeing in principal with the internet gambling sites, that the law in the place where the servers are located trumps the law where the person supposedly vio
Re:According to US Customs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:According to US Customs (Score:4, Interesting)
Not if they've got politicians like the UK. The Home Secretary here signed into law the Extradition Treaty 2003 which allows the US to extradite anyone from the UK for laws which attract one year or more emprisonment in the US (but which might not attract the same in the UK, such as Internet gambling). But there is no reciprocal arrangement.
Yay, let's here it for the British government protecting their citizens!!
Semantics (Score:4, Informative)
So... what are you arguing against, if you don't like semantic games? Let's look...(from parent):
You have to love how they demonize everyone by using labels like "gang of internet pirates"
"Gang" and "pirate" both have specific, rather loaded meanings. Teh intarnet just makes it sound current, edgy and like consumer-consumer communication is new and stuff, and must be suppressed for the good of buggy-whip makers everywhere.
If you want to defend attacks on copyright infringers, a great place to start would be comparing them to other white-collar crime (because that's what this is), and explain how defrauding thousands for millions is less bad than copying music. Really, go compare punishments (and by this I mean civil settlements as well as penalties - compare the reparations with the putative deprivation from interested parties). After all, we have a rational legal system, right?
I realize that is a digression, but I don't think it is a herring, red or otherwise. Liquidating the company's retirement plan to prop up quarterly profit wins you a slap, and distributing music should bankrupt you instead?
Oh, wait - bankruptcy is now only for the rich.
Re:According to US Customs (Score:3, Informative)
Murder, yes. Rape, no. Roman Polanski has been in France for over 20 years.
Re:According to US Customs (Score:5, Funny)
Cool! What's your address?
Re:According to US Customs (Score:2, Interesting)
Honestly, I'm not sure males can fully understand the concept of rape. (It's like normal sex, but without the movie, dinner, and talking.) If you had a daughter, and were a millionare, would you rather her be raped, or lose a million dollars? I consider rape far worse than losing money.
Also, no one said it was going to be a female raping you. Would you be ok with being raped by a male rather than losing millions of dolla
Re:According to US Customs (Score:2)
Re:According to US Customs (Score:4, Insightful)
It is the norm in Pakistan to beat your wife and children but that does not make it right. Just because it is the norm for the plebs to think of people that infringe copyright, with no intention to permenantly deprive anyone of anything, as pirate does not make it correct.
Re:According to US Customs (Score:3, Funny)
If these guys don't have eye patches and peg legs I am going to be SO disappointed.
Obviously, if they were real pirates, they would have their own boat and stay in International waters.
Someone explain... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I don't think the court would get it, either.
Re:Someone explain... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Someone explain... (Score:5, Informative)
Copyright infringement isn't a criminal act in Australia
Additional sections exist for nondigital distribution, other modes of violation, etc. Source: Australian Copyright Act of 1968, as amended. [ifrro.org]
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Informative)
This isn't anything like extraditing people for war-crimes or similar stuff.
Just more evidence that Australia is the southernmost state of the US.
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Informative)
see my previous post [slashdot.org].
Such terms are typical for reciprocal extradition treaties between countries with friendly relations.
Of course, your ignorance about international law provides you a good excuse to wave your arms in hysteria. I wouldn't want to take that
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Funny)
We know what the law is, we just think it is fucked. We don't want to be subject to US law, anymore than I expect citizens of the US want to be subject to Australian law (we should really start extraditing all you bastards who own firearms).
Re:Someone explain... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, I cannot possibly be held responsible for the effects of my actions in every possible country of the world and their respective laws.
To take an extreme example: In China, distributing pornography is a crime, which can be punished with death penalty. Should one maintain a pornographic page, one certainly could affect the Chinese populace. Does that mean one should be extradited to China?
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you live in Canada, but commit a crime in the China, you should be extradited.
If you live in Canada, but commit a crime in Canada, should should be tried in Canada.
In your China example, you won't be extradited. One of the general requirements for extradition is that the crime you commit is a crime in both countries. One of the other requirements is that you receive a fair trial in the country you are extradited to.
In thi
Re:Someone explain... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I am not sure that this is all bad in most cases. Usually extradition deals require a fair amount of dealmaking between the prosecution and the extraditing courts. Usually there is some level of protection of the rights that a person has before extradition. So if someone cannot be tried for the death penalty in the extraditing state, usually this is a condition of extradition. You can imagine what might happen if Osama Bin Ladin were to be captured in a country that has no death penalty (say the UK), the international politics that might result...
So often extradition is not the trampling on rights that people are afraid it might be.
Re:Someone explain... (Score:3, Interesting)
In the DrinkOrDie case, a different crime has been committed, but the monetary damage was in country 'U' and not in country 'A', thus an extradition is clearly warranted.
When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
Griffiths, who... lives with his parents (Score:5, Funny)
Griffiths, who is unemployed and lives with his parents, was ordered to pay costs.
The mother, the mother! Why wont someone think of the mother?!
Re:Griffiths, who... lives with his parents (Score:2, Funny)
No real surprise here (Score:5, Insightful)
This case is yet another reason why the rest of the world needs to band together to curb the lawlessness of the current US administration.
Re:No real surprise here (Score:5, Insightful)
The most effective (actually the only) way to do this is by a worldwide boycott of all American products and brands. Yes that means not watching American movies, listening to american songs, not drinking coke or pepsi, not wearing nike or addidas even if you favorite soccer player or movie star tells you to.
More people protested George Bush then any figure in history. There were organized worldwide efforts where millions of people took to the streets. Did GW give a rat's ass? No he did not.
Do you know what would make him give a rat's ass? The CEO of nike calling him up and giving him the riot act because worldwide sales have fallen by 10% that's what.
GW does not care what the rest of the world thinks, hell he doesn't care what half of america thinks. He does care about his donors and he sure as hell will change his actions and words if he thinks the money flow into the republican party will slow down.
As a bonus if the boycott is successful you can cause lasting damage to the US economy which *might* cause them to spend a little less on military misadventures.
Re:No real surprise here (Score:3)
You'll recall that sanctions were imposed on Iraq.
Adidas is german (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No real surprise here (Score:3, Insightful)
The movie and music industries will always win. If more people consume their products, they'll get more money. If less people consume their products, they'll blame it on "pirates" and they'll get stricter copyright laws, which will also allow them to make more money in the long run.
Well Americans already boycott American products- (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No real surprise here (Score:3, Insightful)
Boycotting US media exports will likewise have a neglible effect, since foreign entities actually distribute and profit from US media in other nations far more than
Re:No real surprise here (Score:2)
Lapdog? (Score:2)
Way to give evidence. Considering that John Howard wasn't in power for any of these except for Gulf II, your argument holds about as much water as a busted sieve.
The fact is that Australian governments for decades have realised that having America as a friend is a good idea. They essentially kept us from starving during World War 2 and since then we've paid back the favour.
While I think th
Re:Lapdog? (Score:2)
This is news to me. When, since about 1800, didn't Australia have massive agricultural exports? When were we ever in danger of "starvation"?
Re:Lapdog? (Score:2)
Re:Lapdog? (Score:2)
Maybe you're talking about munitions. I couldn't say offhand about that. But originally you said "starve". Justify that.
Re:Lapdog? (Score:2)
There's more involved in the business of growing and eating than having lots of farmland. It requires substantial upkeep and industrial output, and Australians have always been keen to use the best equipment in the world. It's part of why we're the most efficient farmers on Earth.
Cut out the fuel, the machinery, the parts,
Re:Lapdog... (Score:2)
Sarcasm like this is a bit rich coming from an Anonymous Coward.
DrinkOrDie Link (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia, perhaps a more neutral source, has an article on DrinkOrDie [wikipedia.org]
Re:DrinkOrDie Link (Score:3, Informative)
"Beginning in the early 1990s, groups of computer hackers began organizing into competitive gangs that stole software, "cracked" or removed its protections, then posted it on the Internet for distribution by others."
I guess they were too busy dealing with the communists in the 1980's so they missed the "pirates" by a decade. I remember cracking groups existed in the early 1980's. They weren't called "Warez community", they didn't use inter
Re:DrinkOrDie Link (Score:2)
Re:DrinkOrDie Link (Score:3, Interesting)
I beg to differ. I was a part of this scene at the time, but 'only' as a courier. I ran a board that was set up at specific times and was on a rotating series of numbers as we'd move our 64C (that was the 'portable' C64) to different houses to the point, we'd
Fantastic Police Work! (Score:5, Funny)
How did this guy ever come under suspicion of cracking software and posting it on the Net?
Weird. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Weird. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Weird. (Score:2)
Which fuckhead modded this pathetic old racist joke "informative"?
Re:Weird. (Score:2)
Re:Weird. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Weird. (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously, which sorts of people do you think got transported to Australia?
a) murderers and rapists
b) political prisoners
c) small-time theives and vandals
d) bankrupts
If you answered a), and you are an American, you have a most astoundingly interesting view of the British justice system at the turn of the 19th century - especially in light of the fact that such people could be executed today if they were US citizens.
Seeing as b), c) and d) were all transportable offences, which practically anybody's point of view - let alone an Australian's - is a little on the harsh side, why should anybody give a damn?
Today, it's considered a small matter of pride if you can prove that one of your ancestors was transported to Australia because of their part in an Irish rebellion, their theft of a loaf of bread, or their fall on hard times. Most of those offences practically scream "underdog" - a status that Australian politicians and sporting coaches scramble after to this day.
Missing options! (Score:3, Funny)
You forgot
e) Breasts!
f) CowboyNeal's relatives
Seriously, though, this *is* a political crime -- it's a crime against capitalism. The real problem with the simile is that the perpetrator was not in the country where the crime was committed, unlike what happened to the forced emigrees.
If this guy gets extradited, there's something seriousl
Re:Weird. (Score:5, Funny)
Q: Why did Australia get the criminals and the USA get the religious zealots?
A: Australia was allowed to choose first!
Re:Weird. (Score:2)
Even so, Australia (and maybe UK) are probably the only countries with a "special" enough relationship with the USA to extradite someone who has never been to the country. I would imagine if he is found guilty he would serve his time in an Australian jail - that has been done quite often in the past.
Re:Weird. (Score:2)
That article has almost no information in it. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:That article has almost no information in it. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with the tone of that article. I think this ruling is very bad, for some very good reasons:
I would have demanded my money back for several software packages if a warez version didn't fix the problems with copy protection. The software industry should be kissing this guy's ass, not putting him in jail.
Re:That article has almost no information in it. (Score:2)
so dont buy it then. and dont warez it either. and tell people not to do business with that company.
Re:That article has almost no information in it. (Score:2)
Re:That article has almost no information in it. (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.chokedout.org/SPT--FullRecord.php?Re s ou rceId=261
Description:
After a swift defeat last March, the American government has won an appeal in an Australian court to have Hew Raymond Griffiths extradited to America to face trial - on charges of copyright infringement. Griffiths is accused of being the ringleader of a "warez" group known as DOD (Drink or Die), using the alias Bandido. So-called warez groups reverse engineer software, freeing it of any copy protection, and
Re:That article has almost no information in it. (Score:2)
He obviously doesn't know how to format an HTML link [chokedout.org].
To those in Australia (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:To those in Australia (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
I sense some criticism here. Didn't your country just invade two sovereign narions, full of "brown people with a different religion", though neither were next door, except to your oil?
Indonesia has six times the population of Australia. They have a history of invading and occupying neighbours (East Timor, West Irian, and tried for Malaysia in the 60s). They've had military dictatorships, and Musli
Re:To those in Australia (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry...are you suggesting that this happens without any resentment from the Australian people? "Resentment" and "United States of America" are practically the same word in Australia.
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
Second our government is a majority government, meaning they can do what ever they want for the next three years unopposed.
Thirdly Howard lies a lot. No one likes it but for some reason no one does anything.
Honestly the man could not disgust 49% of the population more.
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
The countries state funded channels, SBS and ABC, and the State funded radio station, Triple J, have the most vocal critizims of the government. The problem is that people do not see the censorship going on and honestly believe the things Howard says.
He is a terrible person, honestly he is completly selling out our country and most Australians are just
At least Howard can spell. (Score:2)
Country's.
Criticisms.
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
Those are only in the movies. Your average american chick is not that hot. Most americans are overweight (men and women) so right there the hot-o-meter trends lower.
Re:To those in Australia (Score:2)
Re:To those in Australia (Score:5, Informative)
1. Interest rates fell. A lot. For a long time. He's 9 years in and only now are they rising.
2. Unemployment fell. A lot. It's still falling, to the point where Australia is seeing serious skills shortages.
3. Real Household Wealth rose. A lot.
On the downside:
1. Household debt is way up. A lot of this is easy peasy consumer credit and borrowing for investment property ("Negative Gearing"). When this bubble bursts, the Liberals' time in office will end.
2. Government spending is way up. Particularly through the GST. Americans: heed the lesson that consumption taxes don't replace income tax; they just get spent together.
3. Blossoming trade deficits. For those who care, though we've run deficits essentially uninterrupted for over a hundred years and we're doing OK so far.
For most Australians, the defence of Australia against Indonesia is far from their minds. In truth, we'll do more for our security by being honest with Indonesia (rather than sucking up), and by trading with them. Both of these are pretty much stock standard Howard policy.
Pirates go international! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should the US have sole custody of the guy? Why not visit Japan and England as well on a government sponsored world tour? If he is lucky, there may be a few Eastern Bloc countries as well.
The lawyer's reasoning... (Score:4, Funny)
Prosecution: No.
Judge: Surveillence tapes?
Proescution: Er, no.
Judge: Wiretap?
Prosecution: Not today, your honor, no.
Judge: Well what *do* you have?
Prosecution: Well, it's quite simple. Barring the creation of some kind of hyper-intelligent android (which we shall call EvilHackingPirateScumBot), the man responsible for these reprehensible acts MUST be a human being...
Judge: Go on...
Prosecution: Now, I direct your attention to exhibit A--the defendant. As can be clearly seen, he is in fact a human!
Judge: My God, you're right!
Prosecution: So, from this, we can clearly see that since the man we are after is a human, and the defendant is also a human, then he must have done it!
Judge: You know, you're right! Bailiff, take this man away.
Prosecution: (haha, suckers)
Judge: But you know, I can't help but notice that you're a human as well...
Prosecution: Well, I hardly think...
Judge: I see now, this was all just a ploy! Bailiff, arrest every human in this courtroom, and then throw yourself in a cell...
Re:The lawyer's reasoning... (Score:3, Insightful)
Interesting interview of BanDiDo (Score:3, Interesting)
disturbing (Score:5, Interesting)
It started with Panama, as I see it (Score:3, Interesting)
It was during the reign of Bush the First, as I recall. Citing the justification that the President of Panama was involved in the drug trade, the United States invaded the nation of Panama, surrounded the Presidential compound, blared rock music at high decibel levels, and eventually dragged the President of Panama back to a hole in the U.S. until someone remembered to charge him with something and convict him some years after.
Americans thought it was rather funny. I don't recall a single newsman questioning our right to invade Panama. The comedians made fun of Noriega's complexion, but said not one word about the slaughter we perpetrated.
Wow. Imagine a south/central American nation involved in the drug trade. Imagine the CIA ever caring. Negroponte, one of Bush the Second's new viceroys, was up to his ass in creating the death squads back in the 80's. Mass murder is okay, drugs are not...
According to REALLY supressed statistics the Panamanians kept, the U.S. killed over 2000 civilians rolling into Panama. Armed forces, I don't know, And I have no idea what the hell they charged Noriega with, what he was convicted of, or who sat in judgement. Nor under what possible set of international laws the U.S. could use to invade, kill, and kidnap the Executive in other nations because someone there ships chemicals some Americans don't want other Americans to use for recreational purposes. Imagine: Iraq eventually invading the U.S., killing about a half million people. Imagine them surrounding the White House with loud speakers blasting calls to prayer to drive the inhabitants insane. Imagine the Iraqi's dragging Bush II back to Iraq in irons to face charges for invading Iraq under false auspices. Imagine Iraq setting up a friendly government in the U.S. so that they could get favorable oil prices forevermore. And they'd have more justification than we had for kidnapping and murdering Panamanians.
After all, the Panama Canal was about to pass into Panamanian control in 1999. There wouldn't be any incentive to keep the locks in a friendly puppet's hand, would there?
And I really don't want to hear about Noriega's evil rule. No American ever gave a bloody damn about evil rulers in Panama, and we never will.
Re:and he is going to pay this how? (Score:2)
If the US says he can't file in the US, then the US should not be able to file against him. (At least I would hope this is so since the US is claiming right of ownership against him and is having him extradited to the US he should not only be subject to US law while in
Re:and he is going to pay this how? (Score:2)
or look for legal loopholes to abuse.
dont get mad, get even.
Re:and he is going to pay this how? (Score:2)
Re:and he is going to pay this how? (Score:2)
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:2, Interesting)
It's understandable for the target country to pursue you, and for a missile I wouldn't be surprised if they're willing to break some rules to do so.
However, if your own country doesn't see fit to make the action illegal then I can see no reason for them to extradite you for an act they themselves permit. Similarly, if there are laws against it in the home country then I can see no reason why they should extradite one of their own people ra
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.gwu.edu/~jaysmith/Noriega.html
What you are after and the clueless below seem not to understand is the issue of territorial jurisdiction. I think the precedents are wrong-headed, but it is what it is.
Global communications schemes are going to make many extraterritorial acts fall under the reach of the U.S. or whomever wants to prosecute the offense. The legal nightmares have only just begun. If you did it on the internet, you violated a law somewhere at sometime. Sweet dreams...
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:3)
Distributing kiddie porn is not an act of war, nor is exploiting children to make it. Extradite, or don't extradite?
Using email to organize and execute other crimes (murder, theft, kidnapping) in the U.S. from a foreign country is not an "act of war." Extradite or don't extradite?
I do not understand this pervasive attitude that IT crime is somehow "lesser" than a crime with visible/tangible results. Some go so far as to defend IT offenses "victimless" crimes. I always wonde
Re:So if I launch a missle.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Just exactly what the hell does that mean? I hear that quite a bit. Are you saying that all crimes are equivalent? Obvious nonsense. If not, just what are you saying?
"just because it is IT based has no mitigating (nor magnifying--agreed) effect."
Sure it does, unless you attach the same (or less) value to human life as you do money and property --- which appears to be a growing trend.
Re:Pirate Gangs (Score:5, Funny)
If this guy's headed for Federal Prison, that's a good plan.
LK
Re:All up in arms (Score:2, Insightful)
Because you are a fucktard.
If he broke Australian law, he should be punished by Australia. If he never set foot in the US or sent someone to act on his behalf to the US, the US has no claim on him. I really hope he gets a jury trial, and I really hope that people with a sense of national pride are on his jury.
This creates a precedent for extraditing Americans to other countries that they nev
Re:All up in arms (Score:5, Insightful)
how about extraditing salman rushdie to iran? they have a long standing death sentence on him for violating iranian law. he _is_ guilty as all hell, after all.
Re:I can't believe... (Score:3, Interesting)
Technically, copyright infringement isn't theft.
But copyright infringement is just as illegal.
Re:To quote Nelson (Score:2)
Re:Age for legal drinking is 18 in Australia (Score:3, Informative)
What this guy did was breaking the law in Australia - you guys have copyright laws too - The issue here is not whether or not he broke the law, but why he's been extradited for such a relatively minor crime.
I can accept this guy is guilty and that warezers on this sort of scale are the kind of people the law should be going after, but I can't for the life of me see why America can't let the