Trek Producers Will Provide World A Break 480
David Crumpton writes "Star Trek Producers have finally agreed that Star Trek fans are oversaturated with the show, and are planning to provide a break. This does not mean they wont bring something new to the screen; they will just wait a few years. They are convinced the ratings dropped due to the show competing against other Trek re-runs."
They still don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They still don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They still don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Look at a classic trek cold war episode and the chances are you'll find a tale of two oncew great cultures who near-anhiliated one another; or else a conflict, deadly to both sides, that can only be resolved by settingv aside their differences and d
Re:They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Certainly DS9 dealt reasonably well with the consequences of military action. On the other hand, I don't think I could dismiss the less utopian nature of DS9 (and from what I've seen of it, Enterprise) as being quite so unimportant.
For me at least, Roddenberry's utopian future was Star Trek. Here was a future where we didn't nuke
Nope. They Forgot To Tell Good Stories (Score:5, Insightful)
To each their own, but conflict and combat have aways been key components of Star Trek, and every other drama. Shows depicting a bunch of ethically mature humans displaying their wholesome goodness while they unobtrusively research the galaxy would be thundersously boring.
When one of the Trek series, like TNG, had the budget we'd see conflict and war as grand battles between starships. This has the effect of depersonalizing the conflict. On series with smaller budgets, like TNG and Enterprise, conflict and combat were often depicted as phaser and disruptor fights between a few actors on a set. Or, worse yet, between Trek heroes and a Monster of the Week.
I'm not sure what "payback" you've seen as a theme in Enterprise. The Zindi arc was the most combative and it was about preventing an attack on Earth, not payback. The long Dominion War dominated DS9; Klingon culture made its debut in TOS; and the Borg wreaked havoc in TNG.
In the end, Enterprise and the last few movies were brought down because they weren't telling good stories. Tell a good story and people will watch.
Re:Nope. They Forgot To Tell Good Stories (Score:5, Interesting)
I sure hope somebody sees this and mods you Insightful because that is _*IT*_. The problem is idiots like Berman are so egotistical and blind to the fans that they figure if the ratings are low it's the fans' fault. Their stories are perfect--who could ask for better?--so it must be for some other reason that the show is dying.
The best thing for Star Trek would be if Berman and Braga simply disappeared.
Just for fun, here's an example of just how stupid [nyud.net] (coral cached link) the last Trek film was. Funny, yes, but sadly accurate.
Re:They still don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
You fundamentally misunderstand star trek. From the beginning of the 60's show it was supposed to have been a commentary on soceity at the time (cold war, racism, hippy peace and love, etc.).
The best example of this is the 6th star trek movie, its an obvious allegory of the end of the cold war. Starting with a klingon energy moon exploding (meant to reseamble chernoble), following through the diplomacy (including the line "only nixon could go to china"), a new bird of prey that can fire torpedos when cloaked (the US/Russia fighter battles) and ending with a traditional (although IMO overplayed) star trek happy clappy ending.
In fact the secret of great sci fi is that is never really about the future, or another universe, or whatever. It's about present day, after all if you couldn't identify anything in it why would you watch it ?. People watched TOS because they found the idea where man had stopped fighting each other and become harmonised inpspiring.
The enterprise writers shouldn't stray away from social commentary but they should learn how to do it right.
Re:They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of your criticisms are valid, but I think overall millions of people were exposed to ideas they never would have known.
This cannot be discounted. All art is propaganda, and the writers at TNG went to extensive lengths to influence the lives of the audience for the better, rather than pandering to their knavery and insecurities
Jolene Blalock made to look like a man . Stupid ! (Score:3, Funny)
They made her hair like a man and dressed her as a man. What a 'penis' turnoff.
Bring Back Kirk and Spock and the miniskirts with hot women. Where is the good action ? Hot women like in the original series. Most beautiful chicks in the world ! = Good ratings.
Re:They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
The fans made their decision about Enterprise, as is obvious in the ratings.
Just because Enterprise failed should not mean that there should be such a long hiatus.
Either gring us, the fans, a trek series set in the days of Kirk and Spo
Re:They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be like Lucas admitting he did a shitty job with Episode I and II, they're too much on their high-horse to admit such a thing. It's always the fans' fault, or a marketing/deployment fault, or anyone's fault other than their own.
re: drop (Score:5, Insightful)
That, and the stupid Enterprise theme song they would never apolgize for.
Mr. Bermann, I am looking in your direction.....
Re: drop (Score:2)
At least they changed it to something better in the last two episodes :)
Re: drop (Score:3)
Re: drop (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm of the belief that taking it from syndication to a station that is not widely available, or at least to a station that won't expose the show nationwide as did syndication is the single largest factor.
Let's face it, we can nitpick to our hearts' relative desire about each
Hmmm, watch new Enterprise or re-watch the horta? (Score:3, Insightful)
On the one hand, it's an entirely new episode of Enterprise
On the other hand, it's a repeat of a show with dated material, bad effects and hilarious acting. Looks like it will be the repeat.
Isn't it strange how none of the other series on TV have to compete with reruns?
Will people skip the new Batman movie to watch the old Batman and Robin TV show?
Will people skip the latest hospital drama to watch reruns of Emergency!?
Did anyone skip Firefly to watch reruns of Spa
Re: drop (Score:5, Funny)
I consider their changing it for a parallel universe to be an apology.
Re: drop (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: drop (Score:4, Funny)
It hasn't helped that they have shown fucking baseball games the last two weeks.
If there have been new episodes, I have been unable to see them! >:|
Guess I'll have to find out the episode number/names so I can find them on eMule or some sort of bittorrent.
Damned UPN! Even more-so, DAMNED SPORTS!
The Federation leads the Klingons 5-2 in the fifth (Score:4, Funny)
Remember the scene where Kirk holds up the flag and sings the national anthem?
Remember the three-run homer by Sulu at the bottom of the fifth?
Remember Spock and Sox commentator Harry Caray singing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" in the seventh inning stretch?
Remember Scotty's cry of "Captain, my arm cannae take much more of this!"
Ah, the good old days, before ST:Voyager and MLB:Free Agents. Sigh.
Does it count as a repost..... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Does it count as a repost..... (Score:3, Insightful)
The sad thing is that this mania seems to affect even decent writers who happen to be Trekkies. The Reeve
Proof that saturation arguments are WRONG. (Score:4, Insightful)
I have three words that will reveal that any and all variations on the "too much Trek" argument as unequivocally wrong. Those three words?
Law and Order [nbc.com]
Just like Trek, every episode of Law & Order is "competing" with decades of its own reruns -- the original L&O is currently airing its 15th season, Special Victims Unit its 6th, and Criminal Intent its 4th. That means there's 22 (14 + 5 + 3) years of L&O reruns on cable right now.
Star Trek has 24 years of reruns in play at the moment -- 3 for the original, and 7 for each of three spin-offs. (Enterprise reruns aren't syndicated yet, and the cartoon isn't airing anywhere.)
I'm pretty sure L&O reruns air more often than Trek reruns, so let's consider it even -- Both franchises have an unhealthy number of old episodes to "compete" with. Yet Dick Wolf and NBC can get general audiences to watch four new episodes of Law & Order every week, while UPN and Berman/Braga can't get a fraction of the same audience to watch one episode of Enterprise.
See my point? If the problem was as simple as "general audiences" burning out on over-exposed franchises, they would have given up on L&O, too. But they didn't. The problem isn't in the audience. It's in the the show.
We could argue all night long about why L&O has longer legs than Trek. I figure L&O has two things going for it -- better marketing (NBC is just better at promotion than UPN) and consistency -- whether you like L&O or not, you have to admit that it's pretty much the same show it was 15 years ago. (The producers know their franchise's strengths, and stick to them.) The last ten years of Trek on the other hand, have been all over the place. Star Trek has no quality control.
Which is my long-winded way of agreeing with half the posters here: The problem isn't "too much Star Trek", it's "too much bad Star Trek". Trek's been going downhill since Voyager and it's not going to get better with hacks like Berman and Braga. Even letting the show "rest for a few years" won't help, unless they get some new, smarter producers.
Provide me a break, man! (Score:2, Funny)
Trek in NYT (Score:5, Informative)
"Star Wars III" vs. "Enterprise" (Score:3, Funny)
The problem here is that most episodes of "Enterprise" suck. The writing, the directing, and the acting is horrible.
Here is proof of the accuracy of my analysis. Consider
Re:"Star Wars III" vs. "Enterprise" (Score:5, Funny)
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HAHHAHHAHHA!
HA HA HA!
Oh shit, that's a good one!
Re:Trek in NYT (Score:5, Insightful)
As Jolene Blalock, who played the Vulcan officer T'Pol on "Enterprise," explained: "The stories lacked intriguing content. They were boring." A lifelong "Star Trek" fan, Ms. Blalock said she was dismayed by early "Enterprise" scripts that seemed to ignore basic tenets of the franchise's chronology, and that offered revealing costumes instead of character development. "The audience isn't stupid," she said.
Bingo. That is exactly what is wrong with Enterprise. I'm personally a fan of it, new to the trek series (always liked the movies), but I knew that this was different from the theme of the previous shows and movies. I never really liked the any of the series but Enterprise was an exception. Maybe it is because of the unusuality of it that cought my attention. Still, the lack of character development and cheesy scripts in the begining seasons (those that I really didn't watch) was enough to drive almost anyone away. I really didn't get into it until it's fourth season. Oh well, sad to see it go but maybe a break will bring in new creativity. Or, perhaps they'll just finally let Star Trek die after 30? years.
Re:Trek in NYT (Score:3, Interesting)
She also has the nicest ass in series television.
Re:Trek in NYT (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Trek in NYT (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Trek in NYT (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, the article mentions that when Enterprise first aired, it had over 12 million viewers, then dwindled quickly. Then it goes on to hypothesize things like saturation and a poor matchup with UPN content. If that was the problem, Enterprise wouldn't have started out with 12 million viewers.
In the world of science, if something fails when it had always succeeded, we identify the differences, and hypothesize that the differences cause the failure. In the world of Star Trek, the genuises at UPN find bizarre reasoning, rather than identify the obvious. Sad really.
A flaw in your hypothesis! (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, what?
Dude, Voyager was a UPN show. Not one of the great Star Treks, but it did better (ratings-wise) than Enterprise.
Which only works, of course, if the differences are real.
There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm hoping the break won't be too long. I'm not "saturated" with Star Trek
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Insightful)
A break may be just the thing to clear everyone's head (fan and writer alike) and hopefully come back with some new and interesting stories to tell.
Plus -speaking of compeition, if they wait a few years, all the interest in star wars will have died out.
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Insightful)
The episodes often had some level of allegory, had rich character personality and generally good plots. The character development wasnt really -bad- after season 5, but the episodes lost alot of the allegory or idealism that Gene brought to the show.
I remember watching the special features on the DVD for season 2 (I think) and there was mention of Gene's common statements of "In the 24th century, X doesnt happen". Because we as a society were supposed to have grown out of it.
The idealism - the pure hope and character strength slowly evaporated. It became people exactly like we are today, with all the same failings as if society hadnt progressed at all, and only the technology was different. I think the latter half of DS9 demonstrates this the most.
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:4, Interesting)
To me though , It still is the worst star trek show ever.
Though i respect the die-hard fans and their love for it , i just couldnt get into it and i did try oh so hard.
I whatched every eppisode and yes true enough it did improve.
Though to me it improved to the level of Season 1 voyager..
That is saying something.
I totaly respect the decision
Gives them a chance to produce a star trek on par with ST:TNG
Though hopefully they dont take as long as long a break as lucas had and end up forgetting how to make good sci-fi.
Had Enterprise not been a star trek , i mnay have enjoyed it more
The proble was mostly that it had so much to live up to and so little to live up to it with.
Your constantly trying to find yourself comparing it to the star-trek greats , yet not being able to. Fair play to those who could seperate it from the others and view it as an entity in and of itself , i just couldnt and as such the show fell so very short for me.
Heres hopping for a new Star trek that can carry on the flame for all the trek fans by 2009
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, I thought the last season of enterprise was great. I really appreciate how they explore the darker side of human nature as opposed to TNG where the whole crew of the entireprise is a bunch of fucking supermen that never have a negative impulse unless they're under alien control.
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:4, Insightful)
But the first episodes were so appalingly bad (to me and others I'm sure) that sticking around in the hopes that it would stop sucking was just too high of a price to pay.
The show simply never engaged me or made me care about it. Stopping sucking just before getting cancelled is not the right time.
Re:There will still be reruns in a few years (Score:2)
Cos its a crappy show.
I agree. TNG was the best of them all. I'd rather watch re-runs of that that any of them. DS9 was pretty good too.
Im loving the beginning of the end.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Im loving the beginning of the end.... (Score:2)
Seriously. We're watching an episode arc of spin-off at an earlier time of a classic science fiction show, where they portray an alternate of that universe and cross it with a completely different timeline.
Actually, they've gotten enough experience with it that they may end up doing these last four episodes pretty darn right. But it is a bit too late.
Re:Im loving the beginning of the end.... (Score:4, Interesting)
So I watching the begining of "the empire/enterprise" and I see the meeting with zepharym? cochran. I'm thinking... oh shit... someone is playing the movie... were going to get a severe beating... wtf. I'm kinda glued to the screen kinda wondering how bad this is going to go down and then try to recall who would have made this mistake in the control room.
Then of course they shoot the vulcan... I was so completely relieved.
Re:Im loving the beginning of the end.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Or perhaps the ratings dropped... (Score:5, Interesting)
Just a thought...
Competition (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Or perhaps the ratings dropped... (Score:5, Interesting)
because they decided to replace strong plots and good character development with gratuitious sexual situations in order to attract UPN's 18-25 year old male target audience.
Definitely.
Or perhaps they relied too much on time travel stories, which have become rather cliche in Trek of late.
More than likely. For a Sci-Fi series to become popular, it has to explore current political issues. Star Trek explored the Cold War through the battle between Earth and the Klingon empire. ST:TNG achieved this by exploring the topics of discussion: can intelligent machines really be considered life, the drugs war/international trade.
Another problem is if you have two series exploring the same topic (Eg. Farscape and ST:Voyager both exploring the topic of a crew finding their way home).
Or perhaps not calling it Star Trek for two years didn't help?
Or perhaps the really BAD theme music for Enterprise?
Audiences don't usually watch a Sci-Fi series just for the introduction sequence or title, but it is a good indicator of the amount of effort put into the program.
Or the tortured script of Nemesis, which was an obvious attempt to combine the elements of the higher rating treks into a new movie?
A movie is really a one off event that you might see once. Whether somebody will make the effort to watch the next episode of a series, is based on the previous two episodes.
Or Berman and Braga not understanding what Trek audiences really like?
Definitely.
It's no use blaming the old reruns for poor ratings. Even for a series based purely on special effects, the special effects are constantly improving from month to month.
As a comparison, UK Gold plays reruns of old Dr. Who episodes. The old series seems slow and clunky compared to the new series.
The only problem now (unrelated to the series) is that the title sequence of every other program now seems to use SFX (eg. Sports programs also do the zoom-in sequence from Earth orbit to country/sky/clouds/city/street/sports field).
Re:Or perhaps the ratings dropped... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Or perhaps the ratings dropped... (Score:3, Insightful)
Robotech's opening theme is also a great one, again setting the tone for what is to follow.
Generally, an epic quest needs a symphonic soundtrack.
Re:Other plot lines missed (Score:3, Interesting)
How about a Klingon series? How would a Vulcan do in a Klingon culture?
I personally would like to see a Trek series where each Season bore no resemblance to the past - Short Stories if you will...
For instance, how about a series, where for season one, the story follows the Klingons from the point of view of Gowron, and the Duras element, with occasional battles between the Sisters followers and the Council at the end of it? It could unearth some really intere
They're convinced, eh? (Score:5, Funny)
voice type="Haley Joel Osment"
I see dumb people. And the worst part is, they don't even know that they're dumb. They don't see each other. They just believe what they want to believe.
But doesn't that mean... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow (Score:2, Insightful)
If Enterprise was offed due to TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY reruns, how the hell is any other future series going to make it? Paramount isn't going to just pull those 4 moneymakers off the market.
Let's try: "this show sucked bad, but we just don't have the cajones to admit we failed Gene Roddenberry (again)."
Seriously, did they clone Bill Gates and Steve Jobs so as to hide within their own Reality Distortion Fiel
re-runs (Score:3, Insightful)
It's been said many times, many ways... (Score:4, Interesting)
While a break might be good (Score:3, Insightful)
I would much rather re-watch a episode of the original series, TNG or DS9 than a brand new episode of Enterprise. Which says more about Enterprise than it does about any of the older series.
They simply need to do better than enterprise, otherwise a break will have no effect on ratings.
Trek Needs a break? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason why nobody was watching Enterprise was that there was real reason to watch it. The writing was okay at best. It seemed like there were too many episodes that were created to titilate, and not enough episodes to provoke thought. We need to have some depth in the characters. In Enterprise, there is only depth in T'pol and Tucker. I have found their relationship to be one of the hilights of the series. OTOH, there is the pilot Mayweather who is still on the opening credits, but hasnt had any significant development since the first season. Why do you have a character in the spotlight, yet give us nothing intriguing about him?
What we need is another DS9. That series was great in that it had continuity. The characters actually *gasp* changed over the few years! I find it sad that we know more about Garak, a plain simple tailor, than we do Jonathan Archer. Or Will Riker.
I will welcome a new Trek series with open arms, IF they can provide character development worthy of my time.
Re:Trek Needs a break? (Score:5, Funny)
Me too, what Trek needs is for Rick Berman to die.
Seriously, die. Because he's got too much power and money to let go, and HE'S killing it softly, with sucking.
Re:Trek Needs a break? (Score:3, Insightful)
"More T&A" is the only "good" idea he's ever had.
The constant decline of quality in Trek correspond to his rise in power over the show's content and format. Some good stuff has happened due to talented underlings, but he's been negating their input gradually, up to the point of Enterprise season one and two: EXACTLY what he described as his vision for a "better" star trek in interviws
Garak, eh? (Score:3, Funny)
Oh well, I guess we'lll never know more.
Re:Trek Needs a break? (Score:5, Funny)
Otherwise he wouldnt be that interesting.
No way, that was the most interesting part about him!
Don't you remember that episode where Garek came up with a revolutionary way of sewing the seams on the pants of Cardassian uniforms? And then Kiera was all like "We can't have a new method of sewing Cardassian pants come from a Federation space station!" and Cisco was like "It will be good for diplomacy, so I'll let Garek market his new pants" and Odo was like "My people don't wear pants". Then it turned out that what Kiera was really worried about was that Garek's new seam technology would stop the Cardassians' pants from splitting in the midst of battle, which is how Kiera's people had won most of their battles. Then her shuttle gets hijacked by some rogue Cardassians, and they're wearing the new pants! But she faces her fears and defeats them, in the process learning that courage and faith are more important than the seam of your pants.
Best episode ever! I wish they had more tailoring episodes.
Re:Trek Needs a break? (Score:4, Funny)
If it's a real episode, it sounds GREAT. If not, you should be a writer.
Re:Trek Needs a break? (Score:4, Funny)
A little of both. I wrote it, and it was almost an episode, but it got rejected, probably because of all the "I'd like to get into your pants" jokes that I refused to remove.
Reruns are the problem? Not likely. (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh yeah, the opening theme was substandard too.
Re:Reruns are the problem? Not likely. (Score:4, Interesting)
All the Star Trek "history" at hand, and what do they do? Show technology and species not even seen in TOS. And what about all the species found in TOS? Most begin appear in the 4th season. Previously, there seemed to be more species from later series than from TOS.
And couldn't they do the story without a transporter? Photon torpedoes? Or sub-space communication? Or phaser? Would be starting with a laser be so bad?
Couldn't be space traveling and making contact with new species challenging enough? No, they had to invoke a new earth destroying time-war in a unheard region with unheard species.
Star Trek linked to pedophilia? (Score:3, Interesting)
I found this posted originally to another article and modded flamebait, but I think it raises issues pertinent to Star Trek and which should concern all Star Trek fans.
--
This has very little to do with the article, but a few days ago the L.A. Times published an article regarding the Toronto Sex Crimes Unit [torontopolice.on.ca] that focused on their fight against child pornography ("Sifting Clues to an Unsmiling Girl" [latimes.com]). They are the law enforcement organization that photoshopped the victims out of child porn photos in order to get the public's assistance in identifying the backgrounds (it worked). In any case, the article had this amazing claim:
Wow. All but one in four years. Seemed rather unlikely to me.
So, I called the Child Exploitation Section of the Toronto Sex Crimes Unit and spoke to Det. Ian Lamond, who was familiar with the Times article.
He claims they were misquoted, or if that figure was given it was done so jokingly. Of course, even if the figure was given jokingly, shouldn't the Times reporter have clarified something that seems rather odd? Shouldn't her editors have questioned her sources?
Nevertheless, Det. Lamond does confirm that a majority of those arrested show "at least a passing interest in Star Trek, if not a strong interest." They've arrested well over one hundred people over the past four years and they can gauge this interest in Star Trek by the arrestees' "paraphenalia, books, videotapes and DVDs."
I asked Det. Lamond if this wasn't simply a general interest in science fiction and fantasy, such as Star Wars or Harry Potter or similar.
Paraphrasing his answer, he said, while there was sometimes other science fiction and fantasy paraphenalia, Star Trek was the most consistent and when he referred to a majority of the arrestees being Star Trek fans, it was Star Trek-specific.
Re:Star Trek linked to pedophilia? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not over saturation (Score:3, Insightful)
Blame Berman and Braga (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like Microsoft's problem... (Score:4, Insightful)
Gee, sounds like Microsoft's main problem; they're competing against Windows 98.
Seriously, though. Would you rather watch a classy show like TNG any night of the week, or watch a crappy show like Enterprise that is bad even by normal Sci-Fi standards to say nothing of Trek standards on Friday night? Put a bad show in the death slot and ratings go down. Put a good show in the death slot and ratings go down. That's why it's called the death slot. Duh.
Enterprise's competition isn't reruns of old Trek, it's wanting to do something entertaining on a Friday night.
Wait about 3-4 years, then bring back the Enterprise Season 4 team (Manny Coto, the Reeves-Stevenses, etc.), and make sure that Berman and Braga are not permitted anywhere close to the sound stage, and you'll probably get a good show out of it.
Silly (Score:5, Interesting)
ST: Nemesis was also a flaming pile of dung, rivalling Star Trek V in the crap department. No need to rehash the reasons that movie sucked. But suffice it to say that while oversaturation probably contributed to people being sick of the show, the quality of the content they're producing has gone down the tubes.
Thank you... (Score:2)
Dear Rick,
While we have enjoyed the "Star Trek Universe" for what seems like decades now, we have begun to get a little nauseated at the thought of YASTS (Yet Another Star Trek Series). Please remember the words of some wise sage from the past: "Everything is good, in moderation" and apply it to future Star Trek endeavors.
Warmest Regards,
The Star Trek Fans
Re-run competition (Score:4, Interesting)
I can attest to this. When the choice became suffer through another episode of Enterprise vs watch a re-run of TNG (both in the same Wednesday timeslot, TNG on SpikeTV), I chose TNG every time. If Enterprise had been even almost as good as TNG, the choice would be different. But when the only advantage it has is that it's new, forget it.
someone's in a fantasy world (Score:3, Funny)
somewhere in a darkened room rick berman sits against the wall...with his fingers in his ears and quitely whispers...
"I'm a GOOD Star Trek producer...and GOOD Star Trek producer...by stories are epic gems...EPIC GEMS!
The problem is writing (Score:5, Insightful)
TOS: Yes lots of the writing was kitchy and the humor as mostly slapstick, fine but mostly it was well placed. The plots were not new, they in many was resembled westerns or adventure stories. Still they managed to ask some questions and do things that were not possible in those more conventional genres at the time. When they did use kitch and slapstick it was not over done, except in a few episodes, "Trouble with Tribbles" anyone?
TNG: Largely continued the traditon of TOS. There was a little more character development which gave the show a little more dimention but the writers did a great job of not over doing to th point where the show had to become serial. They also took the kitch down an notch. All and all the show was very inteligent like what had come before it and felt like it had some more depth. They still had an incredible freedome of plot to do anything they wanted and keep the show mostly fresh for its entire seven years.
DS9: Ok, I felt this was a radical departure from the TNG and TOS. It had a much stonger focus on charater development and relations ships then the others, and it was a serial prime time soap, lets just face it. Still there was plenty of chance for variety. It was a busy port where different charater could resonably come and go. The writing never felt streched or unnatural it was consistant with the timelines the other shows had established and played by the rules created in the other series. The new format allowed them to expolre some political issues that could not be address in the episodal format of the other series.
VOY: Holly crap! Lets write ourselves into a corner with the very first episode, the flog the plotline out for seven years. Yes the show had its moments but there was really only one goal they could have from day one. The first seasons had long streches of "What clever trick to advance our homecomeing will we find and fail at this week?" it got old real fast. The writing was miserable the dialog was not even kitchy more just bad. Then they started introducing plot arcs like the borg and breaking all the rules. Come on the Borg were supposed to be this highly adaptive and terrible enemy which nearly vanquished the entire starfleet. In TNG every tangle the enterprise had it incurred serious damage and often needed repairs at space dock. The Enterprise, a bigger more war-ship inspired vessal usually had help too. Where exactly did Voyager a science ship all alone refit, how did they survice the attacks with no backup? Sure they did it in the writing but it seemed so far feched and generally inconsistant. I think that had to irritate lots of true fans.
Enterprise: Personally its a step up form Voyager I don't care what anyone says. It still suffers terribly for consistancy problems regarding the transporter, the state of technology at the time and lots of other stuff. Archer's character is irratic at best, wholly inconsistant at worst. The relationship with the vulcans is entirely to close, in TOS we get the impression humans and vulcans have peaceful relations some exchange of goods and technology but little real cultural connection, to the point that they barely understand each other. Yet on Enterprise years earlier then TOS humans and vulcans are in constant meetings and already serving together. It feels like they are at least trying to get it write unlike VOY which it felt like they were throwing the story to the wind.
We don't need a break we just need someone besides UPN sheparding the writers. UPN is trying to go for cool or sexy as the shows cake when that has in the past been the icing. Past Treks worked because they were philisophical stories and often played with some actual science even in their world of fantasy and embelishment. These things were just not present in VOY and ENTERPRISE.
I just saw the "In a mirror, Darkly" eps... (Score:5, Interesting)
That was beyond watchable. it was entertaining.
Screw a break, I want a series based of the Mirror Universe.
Re:I just saw the "In a mirror, Darkly" eps... (Score:3, Interesting)
Screw a break, I want a series based of the Mirror Universe.
If I had a mod point, I would shower you with it! That's actually a really great idea. There aren't too many intersections with the "main" ST universe which reduces the chances of fubaring things.
It would also be an interesting plot twist to see the "Federation" as the bad guys.
Re:I just saw the "In a mirror, Darkly" eps... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll agree with one thing Berman said (Score:5, Insightful)
However, I think Berman needs to understand that, by and large, fans think that the last few years of Star Trek have been pure, utter crap. Only the most rabid Trek fans have enjoyed anything from DS9 on. DS9 was a soap opera (much more so than the last two seasons of TNG; at least TNG had some compelling story lines) and Voyager and Enterprise just plain old sucked. This from a guy who can more or less recite lines while watching Wrath of Khan.
Berman, Braga, just think about this: I hear more sci-fi fans talk about Andromeda than Enterprise. In that case I think it's more due to the fact that Andromeda is in syndication and local channels use it to fill out their lineup, as well as Sci-Fi and WGN, among others, carrying it. I mean, c'mon, guys, you're being beaten out by something that carries Gene's name! I'd much rather watch one of the Stargate shows or the modern Battlestar Galactica than watch that dreck you call Enterprise. Why? Well, it may not be the best acting, but the shows are just better. And that's sad, because compared to old Trek, all of them suck.
No, Rick, it's not merely oversaturation; if oversaturation was the only key problem, sitcoms would have died out years ago. No, Rick, it's you and Paramont. Craptacular story lines, craptacular acting, and no offense to LeVar, but craptacular directing too. Add to that that the show is stuck on the least-popular network in the U.S., and it's not hard to figure out why Trek is dead.
One reason this Trek fan never watched Enterprise: (Score:3, Insightful)
So I picked up torrents for some Enterprise episodes in HD, thinking "hey, I'll just watch it here, and if I really like it, I'll make time for it."
A group called BayTSP started sending abuse notices to my ISP, threatening to sue me if I didn't stop sharing Enterprise episodes. So I stopped. And I don't watch it. I do, however, watch Battlestar Galactica, for which I have not received any file sharing complaints.
I didn't watch Enterprise (Score:3, Insightful)
I loved DS9, TNG, and VOY, yes even TOS when I was a kid I loved to watch DS9 and TNG re-runs, but the thing is TNG and DS9 where in the same time frame, they had similiar technology, we got to meet up with character from the other show (Thomas Riker on DS9, and Bashir in TNG)the only thing the I didn't like about VOY was that they weren't in thier classic federation dealing with the klingon/romulan empire and it was all these small (in comparison)groups that Voyager needed to depend on to get home I still enjoyed Voyager.
to finish up I'd just like to say that we didn't lose interest in Star trek, Star Trek was going in another direction. I would love to see a Star Trek series that takes place from the same time era as TNG maybe slightly more into the furutre with newer technology, dealing in the classic ferdation situation going out on a mission of peace, exporing and from time to time dealing witht he klingon/romulan empires, and of coarse meeting the other species the the federation as met b4
Ronald Moore is laughing at this (Score:5, Funny)
The best Trek series I've seen in years just ended its season a few weeks ago.
Battlestar GalacticaFour words that will save ST (Score:3, Informative)
Seriously, time travel episodes are really silly. And over done. A lot.
Did i mention they were over done?
The big problem was.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The big problem was.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally *hate* sitting down, only to find out that it's a re-run again... surprise! New episodes are 3 weeks away! In many cases, I miss new episodes because of this very thing.
Idiots.
The only thing worse are annoying TV logos, the worst of those being the "morphers". Personally, I've stopped watching TBS and a fe
I love spin (Score:4, Funny)
Trek does NOT compete against itself! (Score:4, Interesting)
Any good sci-fi helps the other works in the story, not subtracts from them.
For example, I read the Hobbit as a kid and liked it. Then found out about LOTR. Read those and loved them. Found out there was essentially a prequel, The Silmarillion. Read that and loved it.
None of these books subtract from the experience of any other. Why? Because each book adds to the experience of the other. When Aragorn is singing about Luthien, it's a beautiful moment. After you read the Silmarillion, you know what he's singing about and why - and it adds to the moment.
But the new Trek shows don't do this.
They take off on their own and (to me anyways, this is all opinion, YMMV, etc) don't add to the story.
A good example is Khan. Seriously great villain. But now when I look at Khan, I have to picture that ship full of whiny kids pining for Brent Spiner. Doesn't add to it.
And most of the new stuff feels that way to me. Seems like right after DS9 decided it was a war show, the whole magical exploration thing that I liked so much was lost, and it never really came back.
Yeah right (Score:3, Insightful)
I am SORRY. The problem is not the re-runs. The problem are the people who are there in charge now. Rick Berman and his staff have continued to turn out LAME scripts. NOTHING new. Designing a prequal that looked like it was a century above the next gen series, yet smaller. TERRIBLE casting choice for the Captain. Scott Bakula is not captain material. They'd have bene better off with Michael Ironsides or Someone more captainly. I stood beside the producers when they selected a Woman for the role of the Captain in Voyager. I stood behind alot of the dumb coices made. Deep Space Nine, while not the best of the new stuff (TNG is WAYY better), it did not make sense within the Star Trek ethos. How can you go boldy with no starship?? That's why they added the Defiant. The Defiant and the War with the Dominion is what saved DS9 from sinking into mediocrity. Star Trek was known for thought provoking plot lines and for translating the current events to the show. Where's the terror attacks and idiotic security? If Berman and crew think they can just take a couple years off and come back with the same screenwriters and producers, you got another thing coming. Unless there's MAJOR changes AT THE TOP, you won't see a difference in the new trek series in a couple years.
TOS and TNG (Score:5, Insightful)
Then, DS9 came out. The first few episodes were interesting, because it was a "different" kind of Star Trek, but taking place in the same time period as TNG. Unfortunately, there were only a few really innovative episodes. DS9 got old fast because it degenerated into a political show based in a science fiction environment, but with hardly any good wholesome science fiction. Seemingly, every episode was about some political problem with the Cardassians and how it was going to be solved with various political maneuvering. If I had wanted to watch politics, I could have switch to Fox News and seen it there. Those politics get me worked up enough; why should I get any more worked up over nonexistant politics in a nonexistant place, with nonexistant people?
Nearly all TOS and TNG episodes had this interesting quality that no show was about one specific thing. In other words, there was always some overall plot, and then there were other things happening concurrently that complicated things. This was good because the overall plot was usually solved by pushing some button or reprogramming the scanner array or something, but the other things made the episode interesting and thought provoking. DS9 episodes didn't have that quality. There was usually just one thing going on, and personally, it didn't provoke any thought.
When Voyager came out, it once again seemed interesting. Here was yet another show taking place in about the same time period as TNG. Unfortunately, it quickly became quite boring as well. Here they are, 70 years from home, assuming they travel nonstop at maximum warp speed, right? How come everybody there speaks English? Am I supposed to believe that some universal translator exists that can immediately translate languages it never heard? Even the Klingons had their own language, for crying out loud, and they were much closer to home! Then, the question arised of why in the heck they would make so many stops if it will take so long to get home anyway? At this rate, they'll get there in 140 years! Once again, most episodes lacked that quality present in TOS and TNG episodes. It quickly lost its luster.
When Enterprise came out, I only saw the first episode, and I came to the conclusion that I just didn't care anymore. It didn't seem right for some reason. I had grown to know Star Trek as being a show with Kirk's crew or with Picard's crew. Those crews gave the shows some kind of feeling that all these other crews just tried to hard to mimic.
I hope they release a DVD boxed set of all TOS and TNG episodes; I'd buy it in a minute.
TOS = The Original Series
TNG = The Next Generation
DS9 = Deep Space Nine
The real problem... (Score:4, Funny)
From a Trek Fan Perspective... (Score:4, Interesting)
My reasons for giving up were the pointless story arcs and liberal re-imagining of the TREK Universe until it was barely comparable to the initial vision of Roddenberry...and being a survivor of the "Arnold Wars" for the heart and soul of Trek, I saw this coming a long time ago.
When I found that Berman and Braga had written ENTERPRISE into a corner last season for Coto to resolve without help, it showed Berman and Braga for what they were...petulant weasels who desired all credit and spread all blame.
Considering what Coto was left with, he did a brilliant job of pulling the series out of the corner, and eliminating the 'Time Wars' arc at the same time.
But Berman and Braga had done their damage...if the fans didn't like _their_ version of TREK, then Coto would be the 'fall guy' for their errors...and he is.
Berman and Braga are _NOT_ science fiction fans, let alone writers...they are TV hacks, trying to cash in on the work and imagination of others, and being given the keys to the kingdom through control of TREK.
They wrested control of the TREK franchise from Gene when he had his stroke, and they cut out Majel, reducing her to comic relief or computer voices. They ignored quality of content for T&A and shoot-em-ups.
A simple check of IMDB [imdb.com] on their records indicates that they have no real experience in production of programming, aside from the pocket universe of TREK; it's not unreasonable to presume that they chafed under Roddenberry's "rules" and decided to change the TREK Universe completely to their own interpretations.
Mind you, this is not to argue that the TREK Universe is inviolate...but their interpretation of the original concepts that Roddenberry laid out bear little or no resemblance to those concepts.
We could do worse than Manny Coto...in fact, we _have_ done worse with Berman and Braga.
We would all be better served by getting Paramount to remove those two and letting Coto, or anyone else with a _real_ programming/writing background, take over the TREK Universe.
Roddenberry created his universe with people who have worked on cop shows, soap operas, adventure shows and films, and all manner of programs, having done the same himself.
Berman and Braga have incestuously drawn the circle of TREK so tightly that it has developed the same stagnation we would see in inbred hillfolk...the hideous and pointless sterility that we would expect has hit TREK because of them.
Dump Berman and Braga...let in some 'fresh' genetic material to allow TREK to regenerate as it moves along, and not lock it away for Berman and Braga to continue screwing it all up again.
Re:Actually... (Score:2)
Re:Actually... (Score:2)
No kidding. At least there was something to watch - imperialistic backstabbing crew, desperate rebels... giving them a Constitution-class starship to play with was a nice touch. Just goes to show you (as in the Tholians) shouldn't open up rifts to other universes without making damn sure your ass is covered.
Re:No Berman... (Score:2)
Re:yay (Score:5, Insightful)
I was a huge fan of Deep Space Nine, I thought it was an utterly fantastic show. Granted, it had too many plot themes based around Quark and the like that nobody really cared about, and also stands guilty for having one of the biggest deus ex machinas in history by having the Prophets make the enemy war-fleet disappear into thin air, but it had some very good moments, especially in the later series when the Dominion plot arc really panned out - if you really did stop watching Trek altogether just a few weeks into DS9, you missed out on a very good show once they worked out the right balance between Space-Opera and Sci-Fi action, something TNG had from almost the very beginning and Voyager/Enterprise never quite managed to find.
For the record, while I'd call myself a huge fan of Deep Space Nine, I'm only a casual fan of Trek in general - I couldn't recite facts about Dilithium crystals, but I could probably look them up in my DS9 Technical Manual that someone once bought for me