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Slashback: OS Xi, Sarge, Statistics 456

Slashback is back from vacation with updates on the Apple switch to Intel,a now-fixed glitch in the recent release of Debian 3.1, a hyper-efficient Honda, and the real numbers on online music networks. Read on for the details.

It still feels like a strange dream that they're really switching. An anonymous reader writes "With our latest Unix (MacOS-X) vendor's switch to x86, I figured now would be a fine time to revisit an old MIT Graduate Student Beer announcement from 2001."

Also, samchung writes "CoolTechZone has its latest article up that discusses the possibilities of Apple's protection on x86 hardware to prevent users from running the Mac OS X on non-proprietary hardware."

More fuel: Reality Master 101 writes "Michael Robertson, CEO of Linspire posted an editorial talking about his disappointment that Apple wasn't embracing generic hardware. But the really interesting part was that he states, "My sources say that Jobs is going to use Intel's cryptographic technology called LaGrande to make sure OS X will only boot on Apple-branded hardware. This is a similar technique to the one that Microsoft used to make sure Linux could not be loaded on Xbox..." I'm still not sure how they'll do this with an open source Kernel." They're clearly part of the Linspire marketing effort, but Robertson's messages, including this one, are usually pithy and worth reading.

Hey, you could always wait for a service pack. An anonymous reader submits "Because of an error in a configuration file, Debian Sarge, released June 6th, does not have security updating enabled by default. ZDNet Australia reports that after several years of testing, the release team's error caused a significant delay in deployment. Steve Langasek, of the release team, says, 'Whoops, don't go pressing those 10,000 copies of [3.1] just yet.' Fortunately, the error may be fixed quite easily, and an update is expected within several days. OSNews also covers the story.

Sticker shock alone could defeat the other drivers. josemunizn writes "Remember the Honda FCX, from a Slashdot article in '03? Well the New York Times has an automotive review of a week-long, unsupervised test drive of the Honda. Choice quote: 'In most important ways, the FCX feels ready for prime-time combat on the world's roads.'"

Carry the one, subtract 5, voila! An anonymous reader writes "WinMX and Limewire are the most popular P2P apps? That's what NPD group claims in its research on iTunes covered on Slashdot yesterday. But as Jon Newton points out on P2Pnet and MP3 Newswire, the entire premise that more people use iTunes over the file sharing networks is 'nonsense.' With sites like Slyck.com reporting eDonkey alone has over 4.5 million concurrent users and P2P research firm BigChampagne saying in the U.S. in May an average of 6,290,327 people were logged onto the p2p networks at any given moment, how can iTunes' 1.7 million downloads over an entire month put them anywhere near the top? Zeropaid has also chimed in on these claims and even CNET is now questioning the results it reported in its original article on the NPD research."

Catching up to the 3rd parties who have caught up with the competition. An anonymous reader writes "For the impatient or those few not ready to adopt Firefox, there is now another option to get tabs. BetaNews reports, 'Users of Microsoft's Internet Explorer Web browser will not have to wait until IE7 to experience tabbed browsing. MSN has shipped a new build of its MSN Search Toolbar that adds basic tabbed browsing support to IE6. But the feature is not fully integrated into the browser, instead relying on the toolbar to create tabs.' Here's an article including a screenshot.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Slashback: OS Xi, Sarge, Statistics

Comments Filter:
  • by jmorris42 ( 1458 ) * <jmorris@[ ]u.org ['bea' in gap]> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:03PM (#12763673)
    Apple with 'Intel Inside' is at best a wash. No more hype about being
    faster than a Wintel box, but they get close to parity in the real world.
    They might get a few more people buying Macs if they can dual boot them,
    but will suffer a financial hit when someone gets it running on commodity hardware.

    And make no mistake, it WILL happen as the linked article says. If
    for no other reason than "because we can". Darwin already runs so if
    nothing else someone will just extract the higher level functions from
    the CD and drop them in, disabling the copy protection as required.
    Removing copy protection is well understood and will pose no real
    challenge. Macs aren't X-Boxes, developers who have not signed an NDA
    must be able to use one, including the debugger, so hardware lockdown
    isn't a real option.

    And I'm not even sure this new practice of locking software to one's
    own brand of PC is even going to be legal. The console world gets away
    with it because a) the consoles sell at a loss so people cut em some
    slack and b) nobody has waged a real legal war over it yet. But on the
    PC, Compaq v IBM is settled law.
    • by torinth ( 216077 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:12PM (#12763751) Homepage
      ...but will suffer a financial hit when someone gets it running on commodity hardware.

      Really? They're going to take a hit when some bored hobbyist cracks the protection scheme and puts the solution up on some P2P site? You really think that many people who are seriously interested in the simplicity, stability, interface, and power of Apple products are suddenly going to learn how to scrounge through P2P sites and use custom machines to save a couple hundred bucks? Of course some people will, but that'll probably be made up for just as well by people who do it to test OS X and then make their next purchase an Apple PC with it OS X pre-installed.

      If Apple does much of anything to restrict OS X to run on specific hardware, that's enough to deter pretty much everyone who isn't some too-poor-anyway college student or a hobbyist who's going to recommend the retail system to all his or her friends. Too many people are way too lazy and honest for what you're predicting.
      • Well, a fuckload of people downloaded the Tiger beta when it found its way to bittorrent. I'd expect quite a few people to give it a try, especially since the hacks will be likely be well documented by the time Longhorn rolls around and everyone reformats for good measure anyways. Will these people try it for a week, love it and turn around and buy it outright? No. But I'm sure Apple will complain about a loss of money equal to shelf price times infringers.

        People "seriously interested in the simplicity, st
        • by daviddennis ( 10926 ) <david@amazing.com> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @08:00PM (#12764098) Homepage
          Of course a lot of people want to see Tiger and so they downloaded it illegally.

          And a lot of people are going to want to see Leopard run on their PC.

          But Leopard isn't going to include drivers for anything but Apple hardware, which makes it much less of a casual download for Intel fans.

          I think Apple's wisest strategy is to allow people to do the reverse engineering and run it on foreign hardware, but offer no support for that. That way, the curious get to try the system, but the bulk of Apple users will still buy computers designed and tuned for Apple's software. Why? Because we like its style and design, and because we don't like hassle.

          The days when I struggled with Linux distributions trying to get readable fonts are over. I have too much money and too little time to make that kind of effort. Now I want a total solution, and Apple's there to sell it to me.

          I think the main reason Apple does not want to officially allow their software to run on non-Apple hardware is not vendor lock-in. It's the desire to give users a trouble-free experience. Liberating the MacOS so it would run on non-Apple hardware would create a support nightmare Apple's ill-equipped to handle.

          RIght now, the Apple brand stands for a trouble-free computing experience, or as close to that as is possible in this world. Trying to support every generic PC on the planet would be impossible(*), and attempting to do so would cost the company it's hard-earned reputation.

          D

          (*) Microsoft does it primarily by delegating driver development to vendors. They have the clout to require this, but Apple does not.
      • by ArcticCelt ( 660351 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:41PM (#12763970)
        And I will also say that most normal people (we are not, sorry to break the news) are not able to install a simple driver and even less a complete operating system. If they also have to hack it and find instruction on H4x0r web sites, in don't think that the "impact" will be much bigger than the one I create on the ocean water level when I take a pee in it.
      • I think the real point is, if you make Mac "clones" and sell them with the OS installed is Apple going to be able to sue you or not? On their own hardware they might have been able to make some sort of claim, but when Dell starts selling generic hardware with Mac OS X preinstalled I'd like to see Apple try to sue them.
    • That article on CoolTechZone has blown it all out of proportions. Considering that Darwin (being the kernel of Mac OS X) is open source, it is only a matter of time before someone will either (1) engineer some sort of compatibility chipset, or (2) write kernel support for PC chipsets, to make Mac OS X run on commodity hardware.

      I don't think Apple is intentionally preventing its users of doing that. Apple is just not going to support running Mac OS X on your average PC.

      I think OpenFirmware is likely to be
      • Re:openfirmware... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by xenocide2 ( 231786 )
        My understanding is that they've hired a guy who wrote some of the ACPI BIOS internals within Linux. Apple's openly admitted that they've been running OSX on x86 for some time just in case. I believe that Darwin on x86 is available right now, if you're interested. Unless you're claiming they built a PC with openfirmware, I dont see how the presence of a BIOS throws a wrench into anything.

        Coupled with their own admission that users could theoretically dual boot Windows and OSX, the evidence clearly indicate
      • Re:openfirmware... (Score:5, Informative)

        by Strepsil ( 75641 ) <mike@bremensaki.com> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:42PM (#12763983) Homepage
        There's no Open Firmware on the new machines. The developer docs say that apps requiring it won't be supported, and the developer systems from Apple just have a Phoenix BIOS on board. See http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ [xlr8yourmac.com] for a breakdown.

        Apparently, the machines boot Windows just fine. No hacking required to install it at all, it seems.
        • No Openfirmware? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by rsborg ( 111459 )
          There's no Open Firmware on the new machines. The developer docs say that apps requiring it won't be supported, and the developer systems from Apple just have a Phoenix BIOS on board. See http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ [xlr8yourmac.com] for a breakdown.

          Wow, talk about a step backwards. Isn't openfirmware the reason powerbooks sleep and come out of standby immediately (unlike my windows laptops... all of them take approx 5-15 seconds to wake up)

          Apparently, the machines boot Windows just fine. No hacking required to instal

        • Yes you're right. Apparently reading slashdot top-down (anti-chronological order) is not a very good practice, as I just found out myself.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      It is total utter complete FANTASY that Apple's locked out platform strategy for OS X is going to work.

      And you know what ? I agree it may well be illegal and anti-competitive as well and really there is going to be no way on Earth for Apple to cling on to brand prices on the hope that a few Mactel sheep will buy enough of their boxes. It is just a nonsense.

      Mac OS X WILL be on generic PC boxes. Apple have done an amazingly stupid move of killing of their brand when they announced they are going with Intel.

      • Where's the insight? Come on.... you guys have been saying that Apple is dead every other year like clockwork-- every time they make a change we see dozens of posts like this one claiming that Apple is dead.

        Its been 20 years that you've been predicting their demise.

        Furthermore, your entire premise if flawed. Apple didn't say they were going to take people to court to stop them from running OS X on other hardware-- they just said that they would only support it on their own hardware.

        Apple is not a premi
    • a) the consoles sell at a loss so people cut em some slack

      Not true, except for Microsoft Xbox.

      b) nobody has waged a real legal war over it yet.

      There have actually been two cases regarding this. There was the Connectix VGS (Virtual Game Station), a Playstation emulator for Mac OS, and Bleem!, another Playstation emulator which existed for PC and Sega Dreamcast. In both cases, courts determined that if you owned a legal copy of a game, it was allowable to use the emulator. Things may have changed wit
    • Care to elaborate on Compaq v. IBM? I haven't heard of that one before.
      • Umm wait that was the PC BIOS case? I thought that was Phoenix Technologies and they were the defendent. IBM was the defense in that case?
        • Actually, I didn't think it ever actually went to court. Pheonix did such a bangup job documenting the clean room engineering IBM didn't press the issue. But only us oldtimers know those arcane details, for the midlevel geek who probably isn't old enough to have lived through those early days. Compaq was the first IBM clone.

          Should have known I'd get called on that simplification though. :)
    • by That's Unpossible! ( 722232 ) * on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:33PM (#12763914)
      [Apple] will suffer a financial hit when someone gets it running on commodity hardware.

      They will? Prove it. You are only considering one outcome, that Apple will lose hardware sales to people that buy PCs and load OS X on them.

      You are ignoring many other possible outcomes:

      - Millions of people with existing PC hardware may plunk down $129 to purchase OS X that would never have bought Apple hardware in the first place. Would this not be practically pure profit for Apple? How much other Apple software will these people then buy? How many more iTunes converts will there be?

      - People will buy OS X, install it on their existing PC, and when it comes time to upgrade their hardware, may now consider buying Apple hardware where they would never have done so before.

      It is all about mindshare. Before the move to Intel processors, Apple was not in a position to win mindshare from the Windows crowd, because it required an investment in hardware to switch.

      Perhaps Steve Jobs is thinking further ahead than you give him credit for. After all, he had them make OS X work on Intel for the past 5 years. Do you really think he has not considered every path in the future?
      • > You are ignoring many other possible outcomes:

        No I'm not.

        > Millions of people with existing PC hardware may plunk down $129 to
        > purchase OS X that would never have bought Apple hardware in the first
        > place.

        Except Apple is planning to tell those prospective customers to FOAD. So the only Mac OS on beige box will either be pirated copies or some third party well heeled enough to sell bundles of OSX and a very user friendly install cum crack kit.

        > People will buy OS X, install it on their
    • The chip they will use to identify the machine is obvious - it'll be the rosetta chip - Name another PC/mobo maker that's gonna put PPC compatibility in their machine! Bob
    • Here's my prediction. It'll come true sooner than Dvorak's did:
      HP will build and sell desktops and laptops with Apple's OS X. They might have the Apple logo right along-side the HP logo; but it will definately be branded and marketed by HP.
      They already are using HP do build and market iPods. Steve understands HP's distribution chain and likes it. They'll still be lock-in chips, just like the Apple brand, so OS X will still get cracked out of necessity.
      This is going to happen. Steve sees this as a
    • "No more hype about being faster than a Wintel box"

      Exactly wrong. Now the comparisons will be "Mactel" vs Wintel - actually useable, for the first time. One OS will better use the "same" HW (if in fact it's the same, other than the CPU) than the other. Maybe you're right, only in that it won't be merely hype, because it will be possible to make useable comparisons, just as we do with Intel vs AMD under Windows XP or Linux.
    • Everyone seems to be assuming that the Intel chips will be more or less straight x86 chips. I think this is shortsighted at best.

      First, Intel chips wont be replacing the G5's anytime soon. Benches of Tiger running on Pentium 4's with Rhapsody got destroyed by Tiger on a G5. [thinksecret.com] Apple has indicated that the move to Intel will happen with the low-end Macs first: so eMacs, Mac Minis, and iBooks. The Intel chips will be low clock speed and run cool.

      The timeline that Jobs mentioned for the Intel chips hews pre
      • The more I think about it, the more I believe the Pentium M is the single most important chip technology released by any chip maker in the past decade. More important than the P4, more import than the AMD K7 or K8 (!), more important than the G3, G4, or G5. (I'll ignore the embedded market).

        I'd sworn off Intel chips, especially w/ the P4 and Intel's other blundering and bullying. But you gotta have respect for the Pentium M, to so successfully fill an important market niche (lower power/lower heat) wher
  • Tabbing... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Should be a function of the window manager, not the application. freedesktop.org should standardise a tabbing protocol for X11 apps.
    • Re:Tabbing... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by John Whitley ( 6067 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @08:14PM (#12764195) Homepage
      WTF? Tabs in browsers and other apps are often are heavily dependent on the semantics of that particular application. Tabs can and have been made part of UI/Application frameworks, as the app can interact with those frameworks in a manner that makes the tabs sensible. The X11 window manager protocols are worlds removed from being UI/App frameworks. The protocols deliberately set up some uniform and non-intrusive ground rules to keep WMs from interfering with apps.

      Moreover, look at the differences in use and presentation between "tabs" in most browsers today and apps such as spreadsheets, e.g. the multiple "sheets" model in Excel or Gnumeric. Likewise consdier tabs from the SWT toolkit used in Eclipse, Azureus (Java Bitorrent client), etc. These all have quite different uses and interaction models. Your proposal essentially amounts to "all tabs in all apps in all contexts should work just alike, and their visual display should no longer be controlled by the app." Doesn't seem like a very good idea to me...
  • MSN Toolbar & Tabs (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Sv-Manowar ( 772313 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:08PM (#12763722) Homepage Journal

    The MSN search bar tabs seem interesting, but I wonder if it will establish precedents that might carry into final builds of IE7. The possibility of bugs or issues with this implementation may also help the adoption of firefox, as people who like the concept of tabbed browsing but find this implementation lacking may seek out other browsers, or ask those 'in the know' around them for recommendations.

    • I guarantee that IE7's tabbing will be nothing like the MSN Search Bar implementation. Now I am pro-Microsoft, so keep that in mind when I say this: the tabbed browsing on the new MSN Search Bar sucks. I just tried it out, and it appears to be doing some crazy stuff with hiding and showing different windows, resizing them, etc. It's completely inelegant, and I would rather browse with no tabs (as I have been doing all along) than use this abomination.

      Now, the reason I say that IE7's tabbing won't be lik
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:08PM (#12763726)
    The last thing the world needs is another locked-up platform But there's no other way I can think of for Apple to resist cloned/virtualized Macs running in other OSs. It has to be signed apps, right? And that takes us down the road to the end of free computing as we know it.

    This may be a reason to stop buying Macs. What this could represent may change the entire spirit of computing from "buy/own" to "borrow/rent". And forget privacy and being able to do whatever you want on your own machine.

    • Perhaps owning computers is a privilege and not a right! Why else would they call it a software licenses.

      Until OS X, Apple has always been a locked-up platform. One reason they chose BSD over Linux is because BSD allowed them to release altered versions of the kernel without being required to publicly release the source code. I'm not saying it's right, just that it is. If you want free computing use FreeBSD, Linux, etc. We'll have to wait to see what they do regarding privacy. I doubt it will be any diffe

  • steved. (Score:2, Interesting)

    The old MIT thing about SGI and Compaq throwing away their innovative technologies and betting the farm on x86 is really quite stunning. You rest assured, I don't care what Apple does to make it so that OSX will only run on Apple Mac86s, it will take perhaps a day to get it running on your average Dell. Even if their motherboards and hardware are designed completely differently from those of PCs, and all the addresses of various devices are as they are on a Mac, rather than a PC, you rest assured that all i
  • by MarcoAtWork ( 28889 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:17PM (#12763794)
    I'd have thought that especially the Opteron line would've been a good fit with Apple, and by using those at least they could've mantained some semblance of being 'different' and justify the premium cost for their systems.

    Not to mention that AMD's dual core offerings seem a lot better than Intel's, and with apps on the mac already fairly SMP-aware (due to all the dual-G5 boxes Apple sold) I'd have bet that OS/X on a dual dual-core Opteron 275 would've been a much stronger proposition.
    • This is very simple and I'm surprised you haven't figured this out on your own.

      AMD cannot guarantee production levels of their chips PLUS everything is laptops now which (to my knowledge) AMD still doesn't have an answer to the Pentium-M and whatever else Intel has down the pipeline.
    • by cowscows ( 103644 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:23PM (#12763833) Journal
      This has been discussed in jsut about every post about Apple and Intel so far, but I'll repeat it here.

      Intel has more to offer in terms of lower power chips, important for Apple because their powerbook line is really stagnating. Secondly, Intel is far less likely to have any sort of production rate problems, because they're just plain a much bigger company.

      But don't think that Apple won't consider AMD an option somewhere down the line.
      • Here's my gripe about this whole deal...

        You want me to buy a 2nd Pentium 4 just to use their 129 dollar market priced OS? I have a 2.4Ghz with 1GB of 400Mhz DDR which is obviously plenty fast to run OS X.

        I want a G5 for the 64-bit AND the OS. If it is cracked to run on typical hardware and I can use an AMD64, biggity bang. But buying another P4 system when I already have one, "No thanks."

        Unless they announce that the dev kits are the only P4's Apple is shipping and the actual proc will be Intel's 6
        • g5 isn't 64 bit the way AMD64 / Intel EMT64 is. OSX isn't a 64 bit operating system--parts of it are, but if you want a 64-bit os, run linux, freebsd, windows xp64, etc.

          secondly, it's been said that shipping systems will not use p4's. Pentium D is the rumor.

          Honestly, why do you care about the hardware? Why aren't you caring about the performance, etc? Can you tell a difference between a PC using an intel chip or an amd? no.
          • Can you tell a difference between a PC using an intel chip or an amd? no.

            Yes, you can. The one using AMD is faster and cheaper and uses less electricity.
          • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:14AM (#12766880) Journal
            g5 isn't 64 bit the way AMD64 / Intel EMT64 is.

            Correct. PowerPC was designed as a 64-bit ISA from the start. The only difference between 64-bit and 32-bit PowerPC chips is the size of the registers, the MMU and some extra instructions for manipulating 64-bit integers natively.

            x86-64, in contrast is a 64-bit hack built on top of a 32-bit cludge on top of a 16-bit ISA. As well as being 64-bit, AMD64 adds some extra registers (almost half as many as PowerPC, woohoo), which makes code faster, in spite of the 64-bit penalty (it takes longer to load a 64-bit value than a 32-bit one, and code with 64-bit pointers takes up more cache space).

            OSX isn't a 64 bit operating system

            OS X Tiger is a 64-bit OS. Because PowerPC64 was designed to be compatible with PowerPC32, it is possible to run 32-bit code on it. One of the most commonly used pieces of 32-bit code is the windowing system. This is 32-bit because graphical applications rarely need more than 4GB of address space[1], and so it makes no sense to slow all of them down for the few that do.

            [1] They might, however, need to spawn compute processes which handle more than 4GB of data.

  • Fired! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Pandaemonium ( 70120 )
    Slashback should be fired-
    it takes too much vacation.

  • by greg1104 ( 461138 ) <gsmith@gregsmith.com> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:21PM (#12763822) Homepage
    Anyone care to wager the correct order these events will happen in?

    1) First mod-chip to bypass firmware limitations of Apple x86 hardware released

    2) Linux distribution boots on new Apple-x86 hardware

    3) Mac OS X for Intel boots on generic x86 hardware

    4) Windows hacked to boot on new Apple x86 hardware

    5) Mac OS X for Intel hacked to run in emulated virtual x86 machine

    Tiebreaker question: estimate the date when OS X for x86 runs under Virtual PC on a G5 running the current OS X.
  • by mblase ( 200735 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:26PM (#12763861)
    Apple's computers have always been about ease-of-use. It doesn't matter that they're the only ones making PPC hardware now, because OS X will only run on "good" Apple hardware anyway.

    The same will happen with OS X on Intel. Inevitably, someone will find a way to build their own Intel box that can run OS X. I predict Apple's response will be: (1) You can't publish how to do this on the Internet, or if they are legally unable to stop them: (2) Refuse to support that hardware.

    And that will be enough. Some OS X user will call Apple, somewhere along the line, and say that they're running OS X on non-Apple hardware, at which point Apple will decline to help them on the grounds that they don't support BYO hardware.

    Sure, people out there will be building their own OS X boxen, but Apple won't help them do it. And if anyone tries to make a business out of selling boxen that are explicitly marked as "OS X compatible", Apple will bring their lawyers in, force them to remove whatever's making them compatible, and that will be the end of that.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:31PM (#12763899)
    Sorry, if a car costs $1mil, it is not street-ready. It's something you can drive around, but it's something that only 0.1% of the population can afford to own and drive. From that point of view, I could say, "private jets are now a viable transportation solution!" Yeah, they are, for 0.1% of the population.

    We all need to get through our heads: hydrogen cars are a boondoggle. The hydrogen economy is a code-word for "the biggest subsidies (tax dollar give-aways) the fossil fuel industry has ever dreamed of."

    Biodiesel is cost-competitive with plain old oil RIGHT NOW. A barrel of food-grade vegetable oil costs about $50, and unlike a barrel of crude oil, vegetable oil needs only minimal processing to use it.

    Electric cars are almost competitive with ICE cars also, and will be more than competitive long before hydrogen fuel cell cars show up in any show rooms. It's simple math. A lithium-battery electric vehicle could have a range of about 300 miles. That's all we need. The battery packs for such a vehicle would cost about $100k right now. That's (obviously) too much, but there's nothing inherently so expensive in lithium battery production, so it should be possible to bring the price down to make it cost-competitive.

    Meanwhile, there are no realistic ways of storing more than a dozen pounds of hydrogen in a vehicle, and guess what, fuel cells still rely on metals like palladium, which last time I checked, isn't something that just grows on trees (unlike biodiesel, which does in fact grow on (palm) trees).

    Oh and guess where hydrogen comes from, and probably will come from for the forseeable future? It comes from oil, natural gas, or other fossil fuel sources! It just happens to be almost the least energy-efficient way to use those fuels that you can imagine. Yes, it is possible to produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water, using solar electricity... but again, the process is so inefficient that it's never going to happen.

    • There's a LOT of ways we could solve the electricity problem... The problem is you can't "plug in" the electric car into the existing architecture; you need to make social changes.

      1) Encourage people to have ONE biodisesl car and one or more electric cars
      2) Put overhead wires along the interstates.
      3) Build better mass-transit inside of populated areas.
      4) Offer a battery-rental-and-exchange service at gas stations. The battery pack is accessible from outside of the car. Your existing pack is removed and
    • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @09:54PM (#12764832) Homepage Journal
      I dunno. Your model for pricing seems naive. Sure, vegetable oil costs on the same order of magnitude crude now. But we also use over twenty million barrels of oil a day. Some quick back of the envelope calculations show this is is probably an order of magnitue greater than the total vegetable oil production in the world. What would ramping up vegetable oil production to the scale needed look like?

      You always have to factor in scale in enviornmental issues. Traditional Innuit made clothing out of natural materials -- animal skins. However to clothe hundreds of millions people this way would be an environmental disaster. Petroleum derived polypropylene fleece is much more benign -- and recyclable.

      Meanwhile, there are no realistic ways of storing more than a dozen pounds of hydrogen in a vehicle..

      Well, sure at present, but there are some short and long term solutions. Ammonia is promising. It's already one of the most highly produced chemicals in the world, many agricultural areas would have very little trouble converting to ammonia because the world uses over a hundred million metric tons of this stuff annually for fertilizer. It's also not hard to imagine worldwide production increasing by an order of magnitude. NH3 undergoes a phase transition to liquid at normal temperatures at 8 bar, so you can pack a lot of hydrogen into a tank this way if it's in the form of ammonia, which would mean it would have a volumetric energy density closer to gasoline.. The hydrogen can be released by a device like a catalytic converter, or in some designs the cracking takes place inside a specially deisgned fuel cell.

      I'm not saying that it's going to work, certainly not precisely on anyone's timetable. But you are being unreasonably pessimistic.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    A lot of posts answer that AMD does not have a viable competitor to the Pentium M (which is possibly the best mobile chip out there) for being one of the reasons whgy Apple went with Intel.

    But my question and which has not been answered anywhere is, "Why can't AMD come out with a competitor to the Pentium M?"

    AMD had dual-core before Intel, AMD is likely to have very capable people as well as Intel, AMD has most likely studied Pentium M. So, what is taking AMD so long to come out with a viable competitor?
  • by garote ( 682822 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @07:41PM (#12763972) Homepage
    The army of cr4ck3rs and h4x()rs out there will surely find some way to circumvent whatever protection Apple devises to keep OS X off a standard PC. In fact, they've already succeeded [sourceforge.net] . It's just a matter of speeding things up.

    Apple's transition from PowerPC to Intel is only feasible because of the work that Transitive Technologies has done in creating a dynamic recompiler. But that technology, too, is actually old news. Check out this PC Nintendo 64 emulator [pj64.net], from 2001, for example.

    It's pretty clear that, even if Apple didn't make it easier for h4x0rs by moving to Intel chips, we would all eventually be able to emulate OS X in software no matter what. It would be a bit slower, perhaps, but it would be possible.

    So what?

    Apple is still a hardware company. If they can produce a great looking low-end box, a great looking mid-range box, and a great looking high-end box, where will the attack on their revenue stream come from? The only market segment they would lose by rampant piracy of their OS is the segment of "switchers", and though I don't have hard data, I suspect that group is tiny compared to the group of people who buy new computers year by year.

    We all wail menacingly about a future where John Q. Public buys a Dell machine, downloads a cracked copy of OS X with a bunch of open-source driver patches and a dongle emulator, burns it, and wipes his machine with it, thereby completely divesting himself of all warranty service and tech support from either Dell or Apple. How likely is this, really? (If you DON'T factor yourself, as the helpful nerd-on-hand, into the picture?) Is the couple of hundred dollars saved worth the extra trouble, present and future? Just how many end-users, as a percentage, are willing to deal with that?

    Does Apple really produce superior hardware, and do people really care enough about superior hardware? In two years we'll find out once and for all.

  • The really important thing for Apple will be 'allowing' linux and Windows to run on Apple hardware. I'd *gladly* buy a powerbook to replace my Dell - heck, I almost did - and that was before the posibility of dual booting MacOS and Win. And a nice all in one for mom/pop? Give em an imac with winxp... There are a lot of people out there who will be happy to buy apple hardware and run windows on it... Apple still wins.
  • by soft_guy ( 534437 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @08:14PM (#12764197)
    Isn't there more to a computer than simply a processor?
    Wouldn't there be hardware componenets in a Macintosh that might be different from "standard" x86 hardware that keeps MacOS X from booting on it?

    Besides, Apple already does a pretty good job of limiting what computers an OS can run on. For example, if you buy a computer and then try to use its disks to install an OS on a different model of Mac, you usually get an error message. Whereas with an OS disk that was bought separately, it will install on all supported machines.

    Can't Apple just have its installer check to make sure you are on their hardware before installing?

    I'm not saying it will be impossible to fool, but most people won't bother since it won't run on standard x86 hardware anyway. If there were someone out there creating specific "mac clones", I would think Apple would just sue them.

    Will go back to having proprietary ROMs in the computer?
  • I only have access to dial up, so grabing a iso image or doing a net-install is uncomfortably slow. However, I *have* managed to get the first two debian cds through rare access to a University comp lab. I was wondering if/when the fix is released, would I be able to use jigdo to create a new cd image from my existing disc with with correct config file entry? Actually, this bug (though a nusiance for every install) is too minor to bother with - What I'm really curious wrt jigdo is if I can use the update
  • by miyako ( 632510 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (okayim)> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @08:34PM (#12764346) Homepage Journal
    Apple announcing that they are going to Intel I think has significantly lowered the value of the current line of iMacs and PowerMacs.
    I'm currently running an older (900mz) G3, and I've been saving up for a new Dual G5 PowerMac. One of the things that I've always liked about the Macs was that they had a great value. Although people say that Apple hardware is expensive, if you price a PC of comperable specs to a PowerMac, the PowerMac isn't much more expensive, and they keep their value for a long time.
    The problem is, regardless of whatever promises Apple has made about both x86 and PPC being supported, I don't have faith that, if I buy a new PowerMac now that it will retain the value for as long, because I'm not sure how long it will be until the platform is no longer supported. Sure, XCode may generate binary that runs on both processors, but will Adobe and Quark and Alias support that, if the commercial vendors for software that I use are going to jump ship and support x86 macs exclusively, then the value for a PPC PowerMac now drops significantly.
  • by WhiteWolf666 ( 145211 ) <<sherwin> <at> <amiran.us>> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @08:41PM (#12764375) Homepage Journal
    Let me quote: http://www.macintouch.com/pchistory.html [macintouch.com]

    Mitch Stone is quite right to call the "opening" of the IBM PC architecture an urban myth. IBM clearly had no intention of doing so. IBM successfully used litigation techniques to shut down a number of early PC cloners.

    However, it is Phoenix and Lloyd's of London, not Compaq, which deserves the credit for first making PC clones possible.

    Prior to Phoenix, IBM threw the weight of their enormous legal muscle against anyone who cloned the BIOS in their PC. Phoenix did a clean room design. None of the programmers working on the Phoenix BIOS had ever seen the IBM PC BIOS. In fact, Phoenix went out of their way to hire programmers who had never even worked on the 8088/8086 processor chips used in early IBM PCs.

    But that alone might not have sufficed. IBM could have tied them up in legal restraining orders, etc. and watched them go bankrupt while the case inched its way through the US court system.

    The real genius, was the Phoenix had a huge legal insurance policy through Lloyd's of London. This gave Phoenix the ability to survive such an attack. As a result IBM didn't sue Phoenix and once the proverbial cat was out of the bag, they didn't sue most other BIOS clone produces unless they were outright copies.

    Of course Gates and Microsoft were right there eager to sell DOS and Basic to any clone maker who had an interest.


    There was a large company, with a powerful staff of lawyers, who tried very, very, hard to keep other companies from running PC OSs on clone systems.

    That didn't work out very well for the large company (IBM), whom I believe is/was far more sophisticated/powerful in terms of its legal staff.

    There is a difference this time, of course; Apple's EULA. My guess is, however, that there will be some way to challenge the 'Apple branded machine' requirement in court. If there wasn't, I suspect Apple would have sued the emulator designers by now (PowerPC (pearpc) and 68k (basilisk)).

    Honestly, I believe this will happen:
    1. Intel Macs will be cheap. Not Dell cheap, but maybe midrange HP cheap.
    2. Apple will grab marketshare.
    3. Apple will license Mac reference designs to other manufacturers, possibly with Microsoft's blessing. How? They'll buy a Microsoft license to something or other.
    4. Once a sufficent marketshare is reached, Apple will sell un-tied versions of Mac OS. These will only be OEM, and will have to be supported by OEM PC manufactuers. Apple will only support the 'Apple' experience.
  • by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @09:12PM (#12764574)
    Lots of people talking about the possibility of dual-booting windows and osx.
    But they are missing a key part of the puzzle - virtualization. [theregister.co.uk]

    Imagine VMware, SoftPC, etc but running at the full speed of the native hardware with full isolation between running OSes. In a year, that's the way any serious virtualization will work. The hardware assist that Intel's VT and AMD's Pacifica doohickies provide is what it will take to do it.

    So, it will be entirely possible to run both OS-X and Windows and Linux simultaneously on the same cpu with no performance hit. Heck, with multi-cores becoming so popular you'll be able to give each OS it's own processor so they can all run in true parallel if that's what you want.

    Sure, Intel and AMD are talking like this virutalization stuff is only for servers - but they always say that about the new toys right up to the point when they start releasing it on the consumer-grade systems too.
  • MPK?! (Score:3, Funny)

    by alexburke ( 119254 ) <alex+slashdotNO@SPAMalexburke.ca> on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @10:34PM (#12765073)
    The FCX carried a federal combined city-highway economy rating of 57 miles per kilogram

    But how many decimeters per troy ounce does it get?

    Come on, America. Get off your lazy ass and switch to the metric system. (That goes for you too, the UK -- finish the job you started!)
  • by 0111 1110 ( 518466 ) on Wednesday June 08, 2005 @11:36PM (#12765464)
    The article mentioned the dongle-on-motherboard idea, but it didn't mention the TCPA/Palladium issue. AFAIK, TCPA is not dead. And with Intel promising to deliver on this tech in the future, all it will take is for apple to produce their own version of Palladium for Leopard and their own custom motherboard to make it very difficult for crackers, at least in theory. Maybe Leopard will end up even more locked down and DRM enabled than Longhorn.

    I'm not saying that it will be impossible to release a cracked version of Leopard that doesn't require a TCPA enabled system, but I don't think anyone can say for certain at this stage how easy it will be to get around. After all it is new tech, a whole new scheme. I realize that it will be considered the ultimate challenge to crack Leopard and there will be lots of people working on it, but it may not be as easy or as automatic as everyone seems to be assuming.

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