'UK Hackers' Condemn McKinnon? 214
An anonymous reader writes "Whitedust has some interesting commentary on this BBC article which claims that 'UK hackers' have condemned Gary Mckinnon's trial. From the article: 'Another example of some truly awful and misinformed mainstream tech reporting here. The article claims that UK hackers are almost all in support of Mr Mckinnon when in truth as we all know the entire tech community has agreed that Mr Mckinnon is not only an idiot but a deluded attention seeker.'"
Much Ado About Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed, Gary is an idiot. His moonbat UFO-tech stories notwithstanding, anyone who breaks into systems by exploiting blank administrator passwords really isn't much of a 'hacker', and anyone who says they managed to get a UFO picture, but didn't save a screen dump is either a moron or a liar.
All that said, 70 years? Incarcerating Gary for what amounts to a life sentence for his harmless sightseeing is more than too harsh...it makes him a martyr to hackerdom...a martyr that actual hackers would much rather not be associated with.
Instead, how about some action against the clueless sysadmins who left vital Army, Navy, Air Force, and DoD systems vulnerable to such a sophomoric and elementary 'attack' by not passwording administrator-level accounts? If I ever failed to protect my network against such an intrusion, I'd be cleaning out my desk at the end of the day.
Mark deserves to be punished, but extradition to the U.S., 70 years in prison, and millions of dollars in fines is just plain overboard. The U.S. would much better serve its interests by studiously ignoring Gary and letting the UK authorities deal with him.
Of course, if the U.S. is just looking for another 'terrorist' to keep the public's fear level at fever pitch, I suppose the uber-hacker Gary McKinnon will do nicely.
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:1)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
That 70 years figure seems, at least to me, to be a little higher then what he'd actually get, I think. Quoting such a figure might just be to get him to cop a plea, for a lower sentence, thus saving the expense of a trial, and freeing up the dock for more important cases.
However, considering his previous behavior, he'll probably plead not-guilty, and insist on defending himself, rather then hiring an attorney, or using a court assigned one.
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you stop there? This what is fishy to me - that he is looking at a horrendously disproportionate sentence in relation to his crimes. It only remains to be effectively discussed as to why he is looking at such a stupid sentence.
It's so easy to rattle off some dismissive diatribe on
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
OTOH it is the way the legal system works -he gets charged with everything they think they may have enough evidence to convict on. That not only "covers all the bases", but it makes it easier to get a confession for lesser charges which may seem more in-line with the crimes (and also makes for bigger headlines). So I'm not sure you can really infer any kind of ulterior mot
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Actually, there are a lot of people that would say things like this without ever actually seeing it. I'd refer you to Pons and Fleischmann of the Cold Fusion fiasco for example. Maybe at first they thought they had something, but eventually, they had to know that they were mistaken. Neither o
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
No, I have not. But then again, I have no evidence that you are not a 4' tall green lion from the planet ipthar typing telepathically to
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
No, the rest of your post indicates you do not. You're a "truth is out there", "I want to believe" kind of guy pretending to be rational - just like McKinnon.
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Becuase he messed with
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Not harmless, given the cost of ensuring that a compromised system is free of root kits, logic bombs, sniffers, key loggers, defacements, deletions, and subtle but interesting edits to documents(*). Add the cost of handling it to preserve evidence plus analyzing and tracing the attack. If these had been commercial instead of government systems you'd also need to add the cost of downtime.
(*) Yes, yes, of course I know. But if the system's been infected long enough then the backups are
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
It is indeed a lot more expensive then setting a real password for the administrator accounts, yeah..
What Garry did was in
Why so hard a sentence: Underground (Score:2)
Some of these blokes were actually stealing, but even the ones who were 'merely sight-seeing' got pretty harsh sentences. Part of the reason is that, since it cannot be allowed (because one has to draw a line; spying and sight-seeing are indistinguishable and cannot be left to the morals of the perpetrator), it must be policed, and this kind of activity takes insane amounts of po
Re:Much Ado About Nothing (Score:2)
Y'know, I'm thinking the way you follow him around like this, YOU might be TMM. This could all be an act to get the respectable, troll-hating members of Slashdot to sympathize with him (i.e. you).
No Free Energy For You! (Score:1, Funny)
What?! (Score:5, Insightful)
That really makes you think about how long someone who really has hostile intents could stay undetected.
Re:What?! (Score:3, Interesting)
Answer: Pretty much as long as they wanted to.
Remember all those Mission: Impossible episodes (the "good" T.V. ones, not the "so-so" Cruise-missiles they've been releasing the last few years...)? You remember how at the end their "target" always had that "wtf just happened?!?!" look on his face? Same story, different era (and the tape may or may not self-destruct in five seconds...)
Re:What?! (Score:1)
Re:What?! (Score:1)
Re:What?! (Score:2)
Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps whitedust should consider that the hacking community can think Mr Mckinnon is "not only an idiot but a deluded attention seeker," but at the same time also support Mr Mckinnon as he is being extradited to the US for committing a crime in Britain.
Would US hackers support the extradition of another hacker being extradited to France for hacking a french military network? I suspect not - no matter how stupid & obnoxious the hacker's behaviour was.
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, so that criminal who commit a crime in a country, then flee to another country can be returned to the country they committed the crime in.
And he didnt commit his crime in britian, he commited it in Britian AND the United States.
No he was in Britain when the crime was committed. The crime occurred in both countries. Perhaps I did not sufficiently distinguish between the subject & object of my original sentence.
That is the downfall of technology. All this
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Negative. Jurisdictions do not overlap. If the same crime was comitted in two jurisdictions, then you open the way for double jeopardy extraordinare.
McKinnon was in the UK as he knowingly broke US law, just as say, USians are in say, the US, as they knowingly break Saudi law when they critisise the House of Saud.
Here's the bottom line in this paticular case. US considers itself the priemiere country in the world. US law
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
In all the cases you linked to, the culprit fled to the US after committing the crimes in another country.
I was talking about committing a crime against another country whilst still being in the US.
Shut up now.
How about you get an account rather then stalking me anonymously?
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
You didn't bother reading the thread did you?
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
For the record, AC is taking a quote from the end of my comment out of context. Please read the whole thread.
Also, AC - can you please learn to format your posts to make them more readable?
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
Basically, no one wants to do more work than is necessary. if the UK just goes "hey can you send those guys back" the US will be like "No, too much effort"
If it was a real issue and the UK made it clear with diplomacy it was important and with legal filings, they would have been sent back a long time ago.
This issue was apparently important enough (I dont tend to agree but my opinion isnt national policy so whatever). The pressure was brou
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:4, Insightful)
He broke into a computer in the US. So what the crime committed in the US or Britain? Having "Hackers" come to your defence is a little like the mob coming to your defence. I really hate that use of the term Hacker. I still think of Hackers as being good programmers and not script kiddies.
That being said I see no real reason for him to serve 70+years. I do think that he should go on trial here in the US but he should get a suspended sentence and possibly some medical help. I really doubt they will throw the book at this poor soul.
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:1)
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Better still, I publish my non DMCA compliant workarounds on my website in Elosia (which also has DMCA madness), US citizens can access it, does that mean that the US can extradite me when the Elosian court system has had it's fill with me?
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
Not quite the same thing.
How about this. You stand in Northern Ireland and you shoot and kill someone in Ireland?
You action was made in the UK but the crime happened in Ireland.
Or you embezzle 80 million euros from a bank in France from you system in the UK?
His actions where a crime in both countries, the countr
Re:Medical help for what? (Score:2)
Sounds pretty psychotic to me.
How about some counseling then?
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/60523-print.s
Apparently the Scots don't like the terms of the 'new' treaty. Kudos to them.
Here's the meat of the article Emphasis mine.
What were the Brits thinking to agree to such a treaty? Their Gov't failed in its fundamental duty to protect its citizens & provide due process.
Re:Jurisdiction troubles again. (Score:2)
I don't know that I qualify for any given definition of "hacker", but I would have no issues with extradition in that case.
Well (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:2)
Mod parent up.
Larry David type (Score:3)
This guy gets the same kind of attention when someone names their baby Google.
I BELIEVE HIM (Score:1)
Yeah, and I've said the opposite (Score:2)
Re:Larry David type (Score:2)
I would think that if the U.S. government really suspected that he saw something as important as evidence that aliens exist, that we wouldn't even know this guy existed.
There are no 'leaks,' there are strategic conspiracy covers that reveal parts of the truth enough that the public discounts it as conspiracy theory fluff. Think about it. Bvarian Illuminnati trying to take over the world? Laughable. Aliens in flying saucers? A joke. You really saw something? We've heard it before.
Keeping a se
Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:1)
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Howeever, McKinnon said in the BBC article that he just used a simple script to test blank and common passwords on a series of IPs and host names. Even I could do that, and since it succeeded that's not saying much about US military and government security practices.
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:1)
To you it's a 2 line PERL script. To a true monk it's a multi-system automated intrusion system capable of deploying rootkits and coordinating attacks through an IRC bot network.
Don't underestimate the power of PERL.
Back on topic, another poster summed it up well:
- he's an idiot
- he should be tried in a UK court
70 years in prison in a country he never visited to perform his alleged crime? That's not proportionate.
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:1)
----
Of course, this extradition is only happening because Great Britain and the United States both regard hacking into a military computer system to be a crime, but if it's not a crime in Russia, Nigeria, or even Great Britain, it's unlikely anyone's going to be extradited to the US.
Like Dmitry Sklyarov? (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one would rather not be dragged off to the US to be judged and condenmed for excercising my rights in my home nation. Over here, people can drink after they're 18. Should they be dragged off for infringements of the oh so higher and purer US statutes on alcohol consumption?
You might consider that trollish, but it just amazes me how arrogant some americans can be in their attitudes towards other countries and their judicial systems, paticularly in these days of Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay. Your country is not exactly a shining example of enlighted jurisprudence.
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
The Spam kings work at what they do and are real criminals, as are the Nigerians. This guy did not even have to work at this. If someone looks at a football game through a ho
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Yes, the policy I put forward can be exploited for ill. However, there are Nigerian scammers who have persuaded their victims to come to Nigeria to "finish the deal", and their victims haven't come back (and it wasn't because Nigeria is such a nice place that they just had to stay). Plus there are are the Russian cracker rings which have been engaging in extortion against websites with the botnets in their control. A lot of these guys aren't getting prosecuted in Russia or in Nigeria, either because the law
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
no one deserves to be extradited to the USA for any reason. The usa has shit human rights for non citizens and citizens alike, so much so it should be akin to torture sending a human being there.
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Re:Rebuttal to whining (Score:2)
Idiot (Score:5, Informative)
The only stupid generalisations are in Whitedust's articles.
Re:Idiot (Score:1, Funny)
And you thought hackers already had a bad name? (Score:3, Insightful)
From the original Whitedust article on McKinnon [whitedust.net]: Free Gary? Please God Don't.
It would seem Gary "Uber Hacker" McKinnon is not so "Uber" after all. After reading his interview on Spy.org.uk it has come to our attention that his technical knowledge and indeed, mental state, is not all that it should be.
I seem to remember that he was afraid they were going to ship him to Guantanamo Bay [slashdot.org]. But perhaps he'd be better off in a Starfleet detention cell, or maybe aboard the Death Star. The guy is a certifiable kook; the only thing he has to fear is a fair trial where he gets on the stand, rants about the hidden UFO technology (which is doing a wonderful job for us in Iraq among other places) we possess, and the jury figures out that he is a kook and send him away.
Much as I tend to think of hackers as low-lifes for the most part, those that use their abilities indescriminately anyway, I don't think even they should be subjected to this guy's company.
Re:And you thought hackers already had a bad name? (Score:3, Insightful)
I must admit that I to found it strange that he didn't take a screenshot and that he was caught after two years just as he found the information he was looking for. I also found it strange that the day after I heard about this on "Click", there was a news release of, "UFO study finds no si
More info (Score:2, Informative)
Harsh punishment for what exactly? (Score:3, Insightful)
Kevin Mitnick did similar things and they went after him too. From Kevin's [wikipedia.org] Wiki entry: "Littman made allegations of journalistic impropriety against Markoff, of overzealous prosecution of Mitnick by the government, of mainstream media over-hyping of Mitnick's actual crimes, and of the legality of Shimomura's involvement in the matter."
So what did McKinnon actually do? Is his harsh sentence for changing/using/leaking/stealing information or just because he embarrassed the Government in the 'post-911' world?
Re:Harsh punishment for what exactly? (Score:1, Informative)
*ding ding ding* We have a winner!
Leaking information is seen to be a valuable tool to "counter critics" (if not a critical job function and patriotic act) unless said leak exposes embarrassing details about illegal/unethical programs, incompetence or other unsavory details. Then it's full steam ahead for the prosecution of the leakers and not the target of the leak, un
Re:Harsh punishment for what exactly? (Score:2)
Depends on who you ask.
Either he harmlessly hacked into a bunch of gov/mil computer systems, doing them a favor by ponting out how weak their security is.
-or-
He hacked into gov/mil computer systems resulting in the shut down of some systems and $millions lost in the ensuing panic and investigations.
Take your pick.
'Free Energy' technology (Score:2)
You're right, at $3 a gallon in the US for gas, I can see why a plan for Free Energy would be deemed devastating to our economy.
Or maybe it would be a great thing to share this Free Energy plan as a wonderful and kind benefit to all mankind, as well as the health of our air, water, land and seas? LOL maybe that will happen.
The History Channel had a UFO Files documentary [historychannel.com]on Alien Engineering last night with 'alien' technology they theorized could exist. An an
Mildly Imaginative BS (Score:2)
From a November 21, 1950 (authenticated) top secret Canadian document: I [the author] made discreet enquiries through the Canadian Embassy staff in Washington who were able to obtain for me the following information:
a. The matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb.
b. Flying saucers exist.
c. Their modus operandi is unknown but concentrated effort is being made by a small group headed by Dr Vannevar Bush.
d. The e
In related news: Humans committed murders. (Score:2)
What we must remember, is that when an article says "People from this or that group", they don't mean ALL the group.
The BBC article doesn't say "ALL UK Hackers support McKinnon". They just say "UK Hackers", as in "SOME UK Hackers".
I read that BBC article, and I agree with them on everything. McKinnon isn't judged because he's a moron, he's judged because he exposed that the most powerful nation in the world has the weakest information security in the world - and the US wants to punish
Re:In related news: Humans committed murders. (Score:2)
I doubt if it had been "UK cabdrivers," "UK insurance adjusters," "UK left-handed people," or "UK women named Susan" referenced it would be immune from such criticism by people who fit the description yet feel differently than portrayed.
Re:In related news: Humans committed murders. (Score:2)
So, let me get this straight. You lecture people about making sweeping generalizations, and then make a completely baseless, ridiculous statement about how X is the most Y in the world. Do you really think that, say, Uganda or Croatia has a better overall level of IT expertise and
Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm sorry but you can sod right off.
I'm both a member of the "tech community" and a "UK hacker" and I certainly do not consider him either an idiot or an attention seeker.
Clearly the guy has some pretty outlandish views. But apart from that his only crime was proving how incredibly poor federal computer security is in the US even long after their biggest ever a
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually a better analogy would be trying the closed door and discovering it was unlocked - then walking inside instead of raising the alarm.
It's still trespassing, and still a crime. How easy they make it for you doesn't really matter for the purposes of the trial.
I'm sure you'd ask the court to release someone who wandered into your house, read your personal information but didn't take any of it, right?
Mark
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Perhaps not, but I wouldn't expect to be able to extradite him from overseas, and I wouldn't expect him to face many years in prison.
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Perhaps not, but I wouldn't expect to be able to extradite him from overseas, and I wouldn't expect him to face many years in prison.
Not even if the normal punishment for that crime in your country was many years in prison, which was considered reasonable? And if he'd accessed your house not in person but by using a futuristic remote-controlled droid? And if the i
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:3, Interesting)
He failed to report them, and he continued to access them.
Fair enough. He's nicked. It's a fair cop etc.
I have no problem with him being fairly prosecuted. If you read my post aga
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Whether I think 70 years in jail or daily beatings in Guantanamo are fair is not yet relevant - he's not been put on trial yet. All that's happened is that the US has asked the UK to release him to them, so that he can be tried.
Yes, the crime he's accused of is probably out of kilter with the maximum penalty - so his defence attor
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
The information is PUBLISHED. Made available. With default controls.
So, the CORRECT analogy would be: A sign on your house that reads "If you have the key, feel free to browse inside".
And, leave the door unlocked, or the key hanging beside the door.
Is THAT trespass?
Ratboy
PS. He IS a nutter, but the charges should be dismissed.
Re:Raise Alarm to whom? (Score:2)
Since the crackers who call themselves 'hackers' often try and use the defence 'our activities are only making security better' then that's a good idea. Once he got in, he knew he shouldn't have been there - whether the security was 'good enough' or not.
His defence was 'I didn't do any harm, I was looking for evidence the US government was hid
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
Hooray for flawed analogies. The door was not wide open. Secured with a lock that can be opened with any key commonly found in a child's plastic handcuff kit sure, but still
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
True.
But how do you know he's only a "Harmless Nutter"? Because that's the way he's been presented?
And how does anyone know "!= a Terrorist" until the purpetrator is found and after an extensive investigation?
His actions are still costing money and causing problems for the US and UK alike. "Harmless"???
Re:Harmless Nutter != Terrorist (Score:2)
so1o has some crazy ideas, but he's not an idiot. Just because he broke into some poorly secured computers does not mean he isn't a hacker. It doesn't mean he is not capable of breaking into well-secured boxes. I wouldn't want to be extradited to the US either. I don't trust the US Gov't *at all.* The time they are seeking is ridiculous. 70 yrs is insane. Either so1o did some things that aren't mentioned, or they are trying to make an example of him. If they are trying t
Don't misunderstand this. (Score:1, Interesting)
What we do not support is his extradition to the United States of America; in the light of the USA's abysmal human rights record, openly xenophobic policies, and rampant corruption problems, we consider it highly implausible that he could receive a fair trial there. Furthermore, we reject US law as tending to cruel and draconian punishments, and we deplore the condition of US prisons, which
Look on the bright side.... (Score:1, Funny)
They may have stuck him in a shared cell with (cannibal) Armin Meiwes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4752797.s
I can imagine why it's happening (Score:4, Funny)
Bush: "Damm it! Where did they get the technology to break our secret codes?"
Security Advisor: "Actually, we left the systems wide open. Our IT specialists are too lazy to set passwords"
Bush: "So how do we stop these sly foreign devils?"
Security Advisor: "Lets just grab one and stick him in jail for life. No one at home will care. It might put the rest off"
Bush: "Or we could train our guys to use password?"
Security Advisor: "You'r talking nonsense again, sir"
Re:I can imagine why it's happening (Score:2)
Re:I can imagine why it's happening (Score:2)
Sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Now if the US does treat him fairly eveyone is gonna yell that they are just trying to save face. You have condemned the US not on its actions, but on your own supposition. Judge the US by what it does (meaning, wait till he's sentenced to bitch about his horrible sentence). In all of my history as a US citizen, I have seen enough to beleive that the courts here are legit and fair. They are not perfect, but surely no one assumes that GB has perfect courts.
One more thing: I assure you that I (along with almost all of the rest of the country) would support the reverse case. If someone hacked GB's computers, I would expect them to be sent there for trial.
Re:Sense (Score:2)
BTW, people in the UK *are* judging the US on its actions. We've seen quite enough of 'the war on terror' to realise that the USA is not to be trusted with legal due process.
Re:Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
We have an extradite treaty with the United States of America. We've signed it, ratified, enshrined it in law and everything.
You didn't.
Tomorrow morning, a hacker in Florida, or New York or anywhere in th
Re:Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Your legal system is more than imperfect, it's an international disgrace - what joke of a legal system is simply ignored by politicians when convenient for them to do so? Answer: Americas. There are plenty of examples elsewhere in this thread.
Who is the authority to decide this ? : (Score:2)
Just who are these 'entire' people ? Is there a power in the world to get ahold of 'entire people' in the tech community and poll them ?
It more seems like a sentence very much like the overly religious people use to 'disprove' darwing - "Entire science community now refuse darwin's theories" they say -
Having a screenshot or a jpg might have made kinnon a dead man by now.
I personally belie
Whatever happened to properly labeling? (Score:2)
Re:Queries (Score:2)
The hackers of the world will unite and hack the planet - duh.
Big Budget != Common Sense (Score:2)
Sure the US military uses a couple of separate networks beside the internet, but they are not completely separated. It has been well documented that there are many insecure machines out there attached to the internet as well as the military networks so guys can get email and use the web.