Did Producer Timbaland Steal From the Demoscene? 492
gloom writes "In 2000 the Finnish demoscene musician Janne Suni (also known as 'Tempest') won the Oldskool Music Competition at the Assembly demoparty with his four-channel Amiga .MOD entitled 'Acid Jazzed Evening.' A Commodore 64 musician called 'grg' remade the song on the C64 (using the infamous SID soundchip); it is this that was stolen. The producer's name is Timbaland and he is one of the hottest names in American music these days. The track in question is called 'Do it' and it is featured on the Nelly Furtado album 'Loose' on the Geffen label. Getting nowhere with Geffen, the demoscene has now risen to the aid of Tempest, first by creating a stir at SomethingAwful (files downloadable from the forum), then at Digg.com, then on YouTube, with a video demonstrating the blatant ripoff. Being an online-posting musician myself — what rights do I have if this should ever happen to me, and what can be done to raise awareness about such things?"
Uh, okay... (Score:3, Funny)
You're unoriginal. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Funny)
Music from the Demoscene, apparently.
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well
If you consider music sales [msn.com] Rock music is more popular than Rap, Hip-Hop, R&B and Urban combined. If you look at critical acclaim Rap music has only been receiving critical acclaim and awards (outside of specific genre awards) in the past 5 or so years.
And what does it matter if a musical style has been "influential" if the initial argument was that it was unoriginal? You can be very generic (and even steal other people's ideas) and still be "influential".
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
it was fine in the begining but using the same baseline from a disco song from 30 years ago only twisted and distorted and passing it off as "music" can't really be considered music.
I'm not denying that rappers can rap really well but I can't stand the "music" they use for it, don't get me started on emo lyrics or the scream metal stuff either (where they figure it's ok to just constently scream into the mic and pass it off as a tale
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
0: Pop.
1: Metal.
2: Alternative
3: "Movie Classical"
4: Country
5: Disco
6: Rap.
There's six for you. "Hip-Hop" is just a bastard child of rap and pop. (Rap would be a higher on that list if i ranked on "size of influence.")
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong. Hip-hop is an all-encompassing culture, a movement started in New York City by inner city Hispanics and African Americans. Hip-hop traditionally consists of 4 "elements": DJ'ing (originally the backbone of hip-hop culture), Emceeing (rapping), Breakdancing, and Graffiti.
Originally, rap was the combination of an emcee rhyming over a DJ's beat. An emcee's job was originally to get the crowd more into the music the DJ was playing, hence the title (derived from MC, or Master of Ceremonies).
Through the late 90's, rap was simply called rap. Somewhere along the way, around the transition from the "jiggy era" to the Cash Money dominated southern sound of the mainstream, fans of underground rap music and conscious early 90's rap started referring to anything that was not mainstream as "hip-hop music", in an effort to differentiate "good" rap from "bad" rap"
Only recently have radio stations and music channels that typically play mainstream style rap referred to the music that they play as "hip-hop". This has prompted many people to revert to referring to the music they like as "rap" in backlash, to express their disappointment to the direction popular rap artists have taken musically (focusing more on simple beats and rhymes in efforts to appeal to pop crowds and club scenes).
Re:You're unoriginal. (Score:5, Informative)
Since Rap has taken such a dominant role, nowadays whenever someone says "hip hop" they're generally talking about Rap, but to refer to the two things as though they were different musical genres is a fallacy. People think that the subject matter of the songs determines the genre (rap being the sole property of gangster rappers, and all other forms falling under some other umbrella of "hip hop"). In truth, they're all hip hop, and rapping is what they all do. It's just a matter of what they rap about that determines the subgenre (gangster, etc.).
I find the people who try to argue that Hip Hop and Rap are different are generally people who don't listen to it much, or only listen to 3 or 4 artists and then declare themselves expert.
What you have listed there are not musical genres in order of their influence, but probably more in order of your own personal preference or encounterance (which is self-select no doubt, and very much anecdotal). You get outside of the US and Germany, and you'll find Metal drops off the list fairly quickly (and even within those countries, I doubt you'd ever find it that high on any list). Country barely has an influence the farther in any direction you go from midwestern or Southern America before you even hit the borders, much less outside the country. Disco, come on, really? And whatever "Movie Classical" is. But, you go anywhere in the world from as far back as the mid to early 90's, and hip hop was already ubiquitous, from the American brand that gets exported in abundance to the various local flavors that grew up on their own. We're talking from France to Japan to Zimbabwe here I might add.
But listing music in order of influence is also kind of fallacious, since all music is generally organic, and all genres have influenced and been influenced by others. If Disco has a great influence on modern hip hop, and hip hop is very popular, is it fair to say that Disco is the genre that's truly influential or hip hop itself? What if you could say the same for any other musical genre's influence on hip hop and vice-versa? Hip hop, at its very roots, is an assimilator, and has been growing due to its ability to absorb other musical genre's influences into itself seamlessly. From the earliest DJs mixing and remixing established Pop, Disco, and R&B tracks on turntables, to the modern mashups, this has always been a core element of Hip Hop.
Quite frankly, the competition of "my genre of choice is more popular/influential than yours" is a bit ridiculous, because it's not like popularity is the sole legitimizer of an art form. In most cases, it means the destruction of creativity in favor of formulaic nonsense and posers taking over and steering the future of the genre, which is what has happened to most of modern popular hip-hop. One should be happy while their genre or artist of choice remains in relative obscurity, because that is the place where they can enjoy the most creativity; even if it means other more popular and successful performers end up sampling or outright stealing their work.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, I'd wager that Van Halen (both the band and Eddie Van Halen himself) have been at least as influencial to the music industry as most rap/hip-hop artists out today combined. They not only brought about the beginnings of rock and metal in the 80's, popularizing guitar heroes like no one before, but Eddie redefined how to play the guitar (yes, many, if not most of his popular techniques have been used before, but he popularized them like no other) and redefine
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Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Rock, jazz, classical.. hell even techno! Oh.. sorry.. being Slashdot I thought you meant for folks with IQs above say 110-120 or so. If you're talking about the "mildly retarded" range (i.e. can install a fart cannnon muffler without killing himself approximately 60% of the time), then yes, hip hop.
My main gripe about all of this is this:
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And yes, I am aware of the contradictions in that statement.
Re:Uh, okay... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd have to listen to proper high-quality versions of both to decide whether I think it's a true forgery though. If there's more of the original in the supposed forgery then that would be more evidence, but note how the tune in the intro could be easily derived from the melody - I would only put the intro being there as a minor evidence boost.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I must admit I was a little curious after watching the Youtube version - but then the sound quality on that is so poor anyway. Going to the forum and listening to original mp3s it becomes a little more clear - what you should be listening for is in the background of the Furtado song; if you listen you can actually hear precisely
Re:Uh, okay... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But a number of cases have happened like this, if it can be demonstrated at some reasonable level, I am sure that they could win. After all, there is a history of things like this in entertainment. I agree, it would be a long
Re:You're missing the point. (Score:4, Funny)
Most of us can barely find Canada on the map even though it's our 51st state; let alone figure out where some small island in the Pacific is located so we naturally assume anyone that speaks English and is from the Pacific is Australian. But at least we know Lisboa is Australa's capital; and if you look closely enough at a map of Europe you can find Australia nestled between germany and Hungary.
What I find odd is that her last name is Furtado - that doesn't sound very Australian since they speak English, not Spanish.
Obrigado for playing.
Piracy is okay if you are rich (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Piracy is okay if you are rich (Score:5, Insightful)
Outright theft is when someones work is stolen and passed off as your own FOR PROFIT.
And it's also a great example of the disparity in the legal system. This guy has been completely ripped off, and basically can't afford to take it to court, because Geffen are richer than him.
One world, under a dollar, with justice for none except the corporations.
Stealing subconsciously? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a big difference between downloading a song, and ripping off someone elses work, passing it off as your own, and making money off it, which is what this fucker Timbaland has done.
True, sampling without permission outside a context of parody is wrong. But what if I steal and I don't know I'm stealing? How could George Harrison have caught himself and stopped himself from ripping off "He's So Fine", written by Ronald Mack and popularized by The Chiffons, when writing "My Sweet Lord"? See Cryptomnesia [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Then you say "oops, I goofed up", pay royalties if necessary, credit the orignal version, and life moves on. You probably take a credibility hit for a few weeks, then people decide your version was better anyway.
Credit != permission (Score:3, Informative)
Sampling without permission is fine, even outside a parody, as long as you give credit.
Giving credit does not remove the requirement to get permission; it just tells the world who is going to sue you.
If you don't give credit, you're lying about your song's authorship. If you do, you're just doing what every composer has done throughout history: building on the work of those who came before you.
Building on a public domain built by previous composers was possible until legislatures around the world extended copyright term to exceed the human life span.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I burn a CD from a friend, the owners lose one sale. If I then make multiple copies of the music and sell it on street corners, the owners lose far more
In this case, it is like pirating the album, then claiming all sales of that album are mine. How is actual creator supposed to sell his work -- or even give it away -- if the
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I burn a CD from a friend, the owners lose one sale.
If you burn a CD from a friend, the copyright holders lose one sale, ASSUMING you would otherwise have bought the CD. In aggregate, the cost to the copyright holder is far less than one sale per burned CD.
If you buy a counterfeit CD, then the formula is the same (the copyright holders lose the value of the sale assuming you would otherwise have bought the CD), but the cost to the copyright holder is at least what you paid for the counterfeit CD. This makes it a lot easier to show monetary damages in c
Re:Piracy is okay if you are rich (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two definitions of steal that seem appropriate to this discussion
Now the first definition is what you're applying to downloading, but a lot of people have problems calling 'Downloading' 'Stealing' because the owner of the music does not lose possession of the property and you (typically) have been given permission to obtain the music through other channels; you can tape music off of the radio for personal use and most albums will have (at least locally) been played on the radio when they're released.
The second definition is directly related to what has been claimed that timbaland has done.
There is room for debate on the download and no room for debate on the Timbaland situation.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Piracy is okay if you are rich (Score:5, Interesting)
Case 1: Metallica vs the Internet
Metallica, a pasty white but decidedly non nerdy metal band complain about people stealing their music.
Slashdot: LOL, retards. Information wants to be free. Musicians should make money from live gigs + It's copyright infringement not stealing. Stealing is when you take something physical away from someone, like when a mugger took my iRiver full of Metallica songs.
Case 2: Someone uses GPL code in a non GPL product
Slashdot: OMG Stealing! Mailbomb them back to the stoneage!
Case 3: Pasty white Mac fans remix music, get sued
BoingBoing: Information wants to be free. DRM eats babies!
Case 4: A rich black man uses 4 chords from nerdy white guys
Slashdot: ZOMG! Stealing! Plagiarism!
I'd say that the background of the two parties is more important than any deep principle.
Disclaimer: Conventional Wisdom determined by reading comments until I got a headache, not a representative sample.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Using others' works & crediting them is okay, plagiarising (using others' work and not crediting) is not.
Either way, information still wants to be free. It just includes information about the original authors.
So, what's so unpredictable and inconsistent here?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And how about Manic Street Preachers "Interiors" from the "Ever
Mod parent up. (Score:2)
No, the real problem is that he didn't give credit. He's committing fraud against everyone who hears or buys the song, because he's claiming (at least implicitly) that he wrote the parts which he actually copied. Fraud is immoral, unethical, and illegal.
other ripoffs (Score:2, Funny)
he did? (Score:2)
Pining for the Cjords (Score:4, Funny)
Great now they posted it on YouTube (Score:2)
Re:Great now they posted it on YouTube (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Great now they posted it on YouTube (Score:4, Informative)
Demoscene people generally have a very small set of people they even want to hear their music. There's some live events and a few websites and that's it.
Re: (Score:2)
For hip hop, (Score:2, Funny)
hottest name? (Score:2, Insightful)
timbaland? who the hell is that?
Re:hottest name? (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbaland [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:hottest name? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:hottest name? (Score:5, Funny)
Excellent video (Score:2)
Have you ever tried playing "The Halls of Montezuma" and "The Army Goes Rolling Along" together?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Props after he's written the check maybe... (Score:2)
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Will the little man get his finally? (Score:2)
I wonder if this will be a notice to the hip-hop community that, yes, you do need to clear your samples?
Re: (Score:2)
The only difference here is that he didn't actually take a direct recording, he "just" did a recording with his own instruments to make it sound just like the original. Which might be legal. After all, covers are legal.
But yeah, I'd like to see the original artist get some money from this too.
Is it April 1st already? (Score:2)
None. Didn't you get the memo? Information wants to be free. Welcome to the world without copyright. Look at it another way, now more people have heard about Janne 'Tempest' Sunni so he'll be able to sell more records at his next show.
Re:Is it April 1st already? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I've read about this before (Score:2)
Get Legal Representation... (Score:4, Insightful)
And that finnish artist...she should bring Timbaland to court in Finland. She definitely has a case against him, especially since she has prior art to back up her case.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because assets of the publishing company can be seized by finnish authorities. And by "prior art" I think the GP poster meant "precedent".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Send a DMCA notice (Score:2)
Copyrights matter.... (Score:2)
So any
Copyright is NOT there for the little guy (Score:2)
(Yes, that was laden with sarcasm.)
This is new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Slashdot, help me know what to think!?!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Do we support this behavior (DJ Danger Mouse) or do we not (the example above)???
That is the great thing about Slashdot - your ideas don't need to be consistant - just knee jerk and reactionary, in order to be popular!
Re:Slashdot, help me know what to think!?!! (Score:5, Insightful)
You left out option three: actually understand the issues involved and stop trying to play "gotcha."
DJ Dangermouse may reuse other people's work in his own creations, but he credits his sources.
If the above is to be believed, Timbaland reused someone else's creations, but didn't credit his source. That's low. Really low. If it's true, Timbaland deserves the scorn he's getting.
He can sue, but I wouldn't expect a jackpot (Score:4, Informative)
Don't worry. It won't.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Anyway, they're not going to get anywhere bitching to Geffen. No corporation is going to admit wrongdoing if they aren't forced to. Spreading the info on the web is good for their cause but really, "Tempest" has to get a good lawyer.
Keep in mind the only thing you can go after in the music industry is rights and roylaties. You won't get a big cash payout if an indie band steals your melody or worse, if another amateur slaps his name on your song. All you can do is make a fuss and possibly ruin their credibility. This would even go for a major label act with an album that doesn't sell-- if there's no money to be had there's not much you can do.
Now, Furtado's album will probably sell millions, so "Tempest" has a shot at getting the publishing rights for the song. But to get this resolved he will have to get a competent entertainment lawyer who will work on a (large) commision. Then, if they settle or he wins, he may be able to get the writer credit (or shared credit) on subsequent pressings of the song and all or part of the roylaties-- not on the album, but the song itself (so a fraction of the album.. a small fraction if it is not a hit.) And when I say roylaties, I'm not talking gross sales but instead what Timbaland's cut would have been.
Again, unless the song itself is a top-ten hit, I would not expect a big payday from this.
Here's the GRG mp3 for you to listen to (Score:2)
Needless to say, I like GRG's version better.
Hello, RIAA... where are you? (Score:2)
WWNFD? Can we get some bracelets printed up now? You only have to wear them when you're downloading MP3s off the Internet. Oh, please make them pink with ponies on them too.
Seriously, I h
They could care less (Score:2)
Explain at me this: (Score:2)
1. How is it that the latter was stolen, but the former wasn't?
2. How do we know the "evidence" wasn't fabricated?
2a. Are you sure I won't find something suspiciously similar in my
It's not sampling! (Score:5, Informative)
This is US law - I don't know what country's laws would actually apply in this case.
Metal Group "Dimmu Borgir" did this before (Score:3, Interesting)
They never acknowledged the ripoff, simply substituting the song with another one in the album. Pathetic.
This is common practice (Score:3, Insightful)
But Tempest is right, there is no way this'd be worth it to fight. For example Talib Kweli recently violated Ben Kweller's copyright (or more likely his label's copyright) from the song "In Other Words". Kweller replied at the end episode 7 of his youtube show One Minute Pop Song. [youtube.com] If a fairly well known artist, Ben Kweller, can't fight it, someone like Tempest has pretty poor chances.
Home sampling is probably fair use, but certainly using a sample on a record is not. If Timbaland samples Tempest at home, I think that is great. If Timbaland wants to include it on an album, there has to be some kind of recourse for the little guy covering such obvious infringement. You know if Tempest released an album (even just on the internet) sampling Timbaland the RIAA would be all over it with Lawyers. Remember The Grey Album [wikipedia.org]?
Tracked music in Popcap games (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, so it actually turns out that a lot of Future Crew's tracks were commissioned by Popcap:
http://www.futurecrew.org/skaven/music_tracker.ht
In any case, it's nice to see demoscene music used appropriately by folks with any decency.
Good God, YouTube (Score:4, Funny)
Relevant xkcd [xkcd.com]
In defence of Timbaland (Score:3, Funny)
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
A note to non-native English speakers: (Score:4, Informative)
Not the first time (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
There's also a difference between taking from historical works and taking contemporary works. That distinction is in the limited ownership of works. If Geffen, a
The law does not lump IP together (Score:2)
Because there's something called Intellectual Property.
United States law recognizes no such thing as "intellectual property". Federal law recognizes copyrights, and it recognizes patents, and it recognizes trademarks. Uniform state law recognizes trade secrets, and law in some states recognizes rights of publicity. The five areas of law have in common that they establish exclusive rights of some form, but these government-granted privileges are more different than similar and, according to many critics, not worthy to be grouped under the umbrella term "intelle [gnu.org]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They are not deeds to land (real property), nor are they tangible or tradeable items (personal property), but rather artificial monopolies granted upon otherwise entirely reproducible things. Grouping them together makes exactly as much sense as grouping the right to pump oil from the ground with an installed air-conditioner (real property) or a certificate of stock with a turkey sandwich (personal property)
Ha ha ha ho ho ho hee hee hee eheheheheheh (Score:2)
I don't even know where to start with this.
Ha ha ha ho ho ho hee hee hee eheheheheheh (Score:2)
Fortunately, your beliefs and concerns don't matter.
Re: (Score:2)
Next.
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Ha ha ha ho ho ho hee hee hee eheheheheheh (Score:2)
I've always drawn a distinction between "I'm making myself a copy because I can't get it any other way" and "It's mine, mine, all mine!"
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Ummmm. No. You're trolling. The only thing you have left to do is say "I know I'll get modded down for this but....".
You are conflating two different things together to create a straw man. The Gnutella/Limewire/eMule type of copyright infringement is about getting a copy of something without paying for it. That issue is surely a mess and I'm not arguing any of its sides now. Limewiring
Re: (Score:2)
Wow. Easiest counterargument ever. Any others I can knock out of the park while I'm here?
Re:Elvis estate sues RIAA (Score:5, Informative)
Please listen to what's behind the links before posting the first thing that comes to mind. It's not just a similarity - much less simple influence. It's an exact match all the way from the melody down to the bass and drum lines and the synth samples.
One hell of a coincidence if you ask me.
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Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I agree. Life isn't fair. However, when a musician uses a sample (For example Moby, or Paul Oakenfold), they do have to list where the copyrighted sample comes from. Most of that stolen work you refer to is for hobbyist who don't make millions on a track, therefore you don't notice it as much. Timberland thought he could save a few pennies by putting his name on it because some Fin isn't going to make a racket. I guess he was wrong.
Mod parent down; troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe we should just rewrite copyright law. "It is illegal to use media without permission from the original author, that is, unless the one doing the plaguarising is someone whom Slashdot user swordgeek doesn't like."
Re:Best argument against buying music ever (Score:4, Insightful)
Ummm... because two wrongs don't make a right?
- Greg
Re:Best argument against buying music ever (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the "consumers" (i. e. "the people") who granted the music companies their copyrights anyway. If they're not going to abide by the terms of the agreement, why shouldn't the people be allowed to revoke their copyright privileges?
Re:Double moral in the /. community? (Score:4, Funny)
Tell me about it. And just last week I noticed that one Slashdotter supported the Democrats but another Slashdotter supported the Republicans. And the week before that I saw two Slashdotters who disagreed over climate change. It's as if Slashdotters have started having differences of opinion all of a sudden. I'm sure that's never happened before. About a year ago we all said and thought exactly the same things.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That certainly used to be the case - that'