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Record Labels Struggle With the Album's Demise 375

Supplying yet more evidence, if more were needed, of the dire straits the music business increasingly finds itself in — reader cphilo sends us a NYTimes article about the death of the album as the mainstay of profit, and the record labels' struggle to adopt to the new realities. The article notes the trend of the labels signing artists for a single song, maybe two, and a ring tone.
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Record Labels Struggle With the Album's Demise

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  • by TodMinuit ( 1026042 ) <todminuit&gmail,com> on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:02PM (#18497313)
    Oh wait...
    • by heinousjay ( 683506 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:05PM (#18497333) Journal
      Yeah, the LP is pretty much toasted. It's a fairly limited market now, made up of DJs and insane people. Good example!
    • by Fastball ( 91927 )
      Netcraft...oh, nevermind.
    • by mrbluze ( 1034940 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @05:03AM (#18499095) Journal

      The article notes the trend of the labels signing artists for a single song, maybe two, and a ring tone.

      This is precisely why places like Youtube are full of talentless, amateurish rubbish. The recording industry has, over the years, obliterated any incentive for talent by its corrupt methods. Only half-arsed tunesmiths with "connections" and mediocre musicians are getting work in the music industry, by and large - their work is tweaked, retouched, and canned. If you could taste it, it would taste like imitation Spam. People with real musical talent are frequently not in the business at all. Those that have had some nurturing are not using their abilities in public (no money in it). Instead they are holding day jobs and playing musical instruments/having their jam sessions at home in the evenings to relax.

      As a result, the recording industry can't find talent (because it killed it off) and is stuck with ring tones and other crap.

      If we kill off their business model (fingers crossed), then maybe people will once again appreciate the value of live performances and music will become an event, an experience, not merely the auditory equivalent of fast food.

  • Singles (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dunezone ( 899268 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:16PM (#18497407) Journal
    The reason why sales are down on albums is cause they were always inflated in the past. They used to sell CD singles at full price (lets say $10), the album that would follow later in time (also priced at $10) with a total sale of $20. Now you can buy the single for a $1 and if you want the full CD for $10, with a difference of $9, thats where alot of the profit has been lost. Those are just made up numbers but it gets the point across.
    • Re:Singles (Score:5, Interesting)

      by haakondahl ( 893488 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:39PM (#18497573)
      Your made-up numbers are good enough for illustration.

      If a singles album has ten songs on it and costs ten dollars, but only two of those songs are any good, then we are being charged ten dollars for two dollars worth of goods and being told we got our money's worth. This is somewhat like having a vacuum cleaner demonstrated at your house in order to receive "two hundred dollars worth of home furnishings", only to discover that they are giving you a cheap photocopy of a Norman Rockwell.

      There's more. Even if every song on the album were solid gold, the fact is that it never cost any ten dollars to get it to the customer. Ninety cents on every dollar (say) goes to developing, promoting, and marketing no-talent "hormone bands" in the hope that they're the next New Kids on the Block. Or what-have-you.

      Why should I have to pay twenty God-Damned dollars to listen to thirty year old music? I particularly like Procol Harum, but I would bet that their marginal profit hasn't gone up a cent. The record companies' certainly has, however. If I thought that the band members got a healthy cut, I wouldn't mind paying for such genius. But knowing that record companies use(d) die-hard fans like me to pay for such offensively vapid fare as fills the top 40 charts goes a long way toward easing my conscience about downloading files.

      When the technology was firmly on the side of the RIAA, we felt the lash. Now, who's holding the leather? Suck it up, RIAA. It's your backlash--you've earned it.

      Good luck selling songs one at a time. The rest of the world beat you to it.

      • Re:Singles (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Petrushka ( 815171 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @01:47AM (#18498265)

        If a singles album has ten songs on it and costs ten dollars, but only two of those songs are any good, then we are being charged ten dollars for two dollars worth of goods and being told we got our money's worth.

        It's obvious to anyone with a brain that this story a symptom of people still thinking of the basic unit of music as being "the song". But I'd expect that for a lot of people who like music -- especially people who are not RIAA executives, and who are not 14-year-olds -- this is probably not actually the case.

        This is why there has been a trend in the last 10 years towards music tracks getting longer. In 1990 a track that lasted 5 minutes was daring, and one that lasted 10 minutes would be unheard-of -- except on the revered EP, of course. Nowadays 10 minute tracks are nothing out of the ordinary, and 20 minute tracks are often seen. And people like them, and buy them. Obviously that's going to change the shape of albums too.

        I don't see this as the demise of the album, I see it as the demise of the 1980s-style album that the parent describes. There's still plenty of room for albums that are coherent works of art (even if it does feel like a return to the days of Pink Floyd, as others here have noticed). People still write hour-long symphonies for classical orchestras -- and that's an area of the music industry that is booming at the moment. I'm quite sure the album will hang around too. Just not in the shape that the RIAA wants it to be; and once the medium of the CD goes the way of the cylinder, I'm sure the length of the "album" will change drastically too.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by jeff4747 ( 256583 )

          This is why there has been a trend in the last 10 years towards music tracks getting longer. In 1990 a track that lasted 5 minutes was daring, and one that lasted 10 minutes would be unheard-of

          In 1972 Jethro Tull released the LP "Thick as a Brick". There is one track on the album, and it's about 44 minutes long (If you owned the LP version, you did have to flip it over in the middle of the song).

          5 minutes might have been daring in pop and rap, but 5 minutes-ish was not all that uncommon in late 70's an

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by pipatron ( 966506 )
            It seemed to be more like the norm, when it comes to good music. Thinking about Mike Oldfield, Vangelis, Tangerine Dream etc.
  • Their own fault (Score:5, Insightful)

    by heli0 ( 659560 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:17PM (#18497411)
    It seems to me that they went out of their way to kill the album. You can select almost any album from the Big Four[Sony BMG, EMI, Universal, Warner] these days and pick out which 2-3 songs they will release on radio and make videos for, and which 10 are utter crap just there to fill the CD.
  • by morari ( 1080535 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:18PM (#18497421) Journal
    Over exposed, radio played acts are the only ones who need to sign two song contracts and make it into the top twenty. I still enjoy entire albums, from REAL artists. Of course, I'm a fan of concept albums... Maybe if more musicians made their albums one cohesive piece of art we wouldn't have these problems. Oh wait, our short attention span guarantee that we would.
  • Real bands still make whole albums that rock all the way through.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Sloppy ( 14984 )
      I guess what I'm saying is this: if this industry collapses and the "artists" starve to death, I won't give a shit, because they're not artists. I know real artists and they have my love and support, and yes, that's financial support, because their CDs kick ass.
  • by Frostalicious ( 657235 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:23PM (#18497459) Journal
    Yeah they are in Dire Straights. They need to Rush and abandon their Cheap Tricks and keep their Doors open to a new Genesis, or get crushed under the Rolling Stones of progress. One day when you mention the RIAA, your buddy will respond, "The Who?"
    • Okay, You could have really done better.

      YES, they are in DIRE STRAIGHTS, They need to RUSH, and abandon CHEAP TRICKs and keep their DOORS open to a new GENESIS, or get a SMASH MOUTH from the ROLLING STONES of progress. One day, after the CONTROLLED BLEEDING has DESTROY ALL MONSTERS, and we're left with nothing but BODY BAGS your BUDDY HOLLY will respond, "The Who?", because 10,000 MANIACS were TRAGICALLY HIP. Their SPIN DOCTORS cannot tell us PIGS ARE CUTE, and screw us like a FOUR DOG NIGHT.

      It is either to
  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:25PM (#18497475) Homepage Journal
    With all songs costing about the same, there's no reason to buy the album.

    If the "hit" costs $8 and you like 3 other songs for $1 each, you'll gladly pay $10 for the album.

    If record stores want to make money, put the album out for purchase before releasing singles, and price the album and individual tracks at whatever the market will bear.
    • by Seumas ( 6865 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:40PM (#18497575)
      Or just make better music.

      In other news, morse code telegraph service operators are having a hard time coping with the advent of the telephone. Let's make a bunch of government regulations to help them continue their out-moded services that nobody wants anymore!

      Anyway, I'm not paying $1/song - much less $8 for a song. There is not a song on the planet I would pay $8 for. What you're talking about is subsidizing shit by charging an enormous amount for the gold.

      Another way of thinking about it is this:

      How much do you pay to see a movie in the theater? Do you pay more to see 300 or Zodiac than you pay for Wild Hogs? Nope.
      • movie prices (Score:2, Interesting)

        by davidwr ( 791652 )

        How much do you pay to see a movie in the theater? Do you pay more to see 300 or Zodiac than you pay for Wild Hogs? Nope.
        I don't know about you but I pay more to see a better movie because I refuse to see a 2nd-rate movie until it's at the cheap theater.

        2nd-rate movies tend to move to the cheap houses a LOT quicker than quality movies, if they don't fall off the silver screen altogether.
      • Do you pay more to see 300 or Zodiac than you pay for Wild Hogs? Nope.

        Well, sort of: I was willing to pay $8.50 to see 300 and Zodiac, and I might be willing to see $SOME_CRAPPY_MOVIE for a quarter (particularly if they sold beer at the same time), but the theater doesn't show movies for a quarter, so I only go to the ones that I think won't suck.

        They sell them for the same price, but I'm only willing to go to a few of them for the price they charge.

        Likewise, I only buy the tracks that I really like at $1 a
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Technician ( 215283 )
      If the "hit" costs $8 and you like 3 other songs for $1 each, you'll gladly pay $10 for the album.

      Umm No. Raising the single to $8 would kill any chance of me buying the single. Actualy for me raising the price makes no change.

      There are four things that limit my purchases of the singles.

      1 DRM -- It's incompatible with all my players except a Windows PC. In CD format, it may break your computer. Even my flash player will not play any WMA DRM format or iTunes files. Anti-rip copy protection simply means i
  • Maybe the music industry should bring back the 45 records from yesteryear? Retro tech is always cool...
  • Options (Score:5, Insightful)

    by trolleymusic ( 938183 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:26PM (#18497481) Homepage
    I'll just start by saying that I'm a musician and a music lover and that an album that is put together as a piece of art is a beautiful thing - but just like any art that's put together for commercial purposes, an album that's designed as a vehicle for a few singles and some filler songs isn't.

    Not every artist has the ability to release 50-70 minutes of truly compelling art, and most of the buying public is more than happy to listen to singles. Conversely, some artists seem to be constricted by the 78 minute limit of CDs.

    It would be a good thing if the music industry was flexible enough to let artists release what they wanted (or wanted to sell) in whatever format (in terms of single/EP/album) as opposed to this 2-years = new full-length album mentality, some artists might like to release a single every few months, while some release an EP every year and others an album every few years.
  • by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:26PM (#18497483)

    Supplying yet more evidence, if more were needed, of the dire straits the music business increasingly finds itself in...
    I guess it was only a matter of time before the money for nothing ran out and the chicks were no longer free!
  • Large conglomerate music companies may lose here, but the small independent cannot help but win. While the RIAA and it's members keep struggling to find a way back to the good old days, the independents are already thinking out of the box; creating and using new methods of marketing.

    I cannot help but think this is a win win for the majority of the musicians out there, and for the consumer, while a lose, lose for the conglomerates. I suppose I'll survive the transition......

  • by realmolo ( 574068 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:33PM (#18497529)
    The music industry used to be BUILT on the sales of singles. It really wasn't until the mid-to-late 80s that they started focusing on trying to sell entire albums.

    It was the CD that did it. The "coolness" of CDs made everyone kind-of forget about singles, and how handy they were. And they were more expensive, which the record companies obviously loved. Yeah, they did/do sell CD singles, but it's obvious that they don't want anyone to buy them. They're overpriced, and there aren't many of them available.

    But at this point, CDs are NOT cool. They're old and busted, and dull. And they're STILL expensive. More expensive.

    The record companies just can't give it up, though. They had this 20-year-run of making WAY more money than they had any right to (thanks to the CD revolution), but now it's over, and they're trying to freeze the clock.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 )
      You say others are young but you call CD busted and old?

      I checked the article, 85% of music sales is still on CD. It's declining but it's nowhere near dead. I still buy music on CD because that gets me an uncompressed archive. I just don't listen to them in that form. The same article also says that it was when the Beatles came around when full albums became popular, I don't think it had anything to do with CD. When I've flipped through vinyl collections, I don't remember ever seeing singles. The same
    • Huh? When was The White Album and Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band made? Do you know which year Don McLean made American Pie? The eighties you say?
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You must be even younger. There once was this thing called "Long Playing Records"... Big round black things with a label in the middle?

      One of the major reasons that singles used to play the big role in the recorded music industry was that was all you could record on a record. 78 rpm records ruled the land for a good many years holding, at best, a few minutes of recording per side (and they didn't always have two sides).

      The development of the LP and its greater storage capacity was what allowed more than a s
    • The music industry used to be BUILT on the sales of singles. It really wasn't until the mid-to-late 80s that they started focusing on trying to sell entire albums.

      I remember that in the UK there was a lot of hype circa 1993/94 about the "death of the single". Then later they admitted that they were wrong, and that the change in formats from vinyl to CD was probably the cause. Ironic that things have come full circle.

      Personally, I always hated CD singles. For one thing, the whole point of the CD format was convenience, that is, being able to easily play the tracks you wanted. Having to change the CD for each 3-minute single was a PITA.

      Another thing was that they

  • Where's the music? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by spaceyhackerlady ( 462530 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:37PM (#18497559)

    Record some music and I'll at least give it a listen. Too much of the stuff nowadays is fake plastic over-hyped crap. Who needs talent anyway?

    Is it any wonder nobody is buying it?

    My latest musical purchase was a genuine old-fashioned CD, and the entire album (Bailando con Lola by Azucar Moreno) holds up just fine. My Spanish-English dictionary says "clavame" means "nail me", but after seeing the video I assume it has a metaphorical meaning not unlike what it means in English...

    ...laura

  • What do you expect, they raised the prices when they brought out CDs with the promise that once the technology get efficient the price would come down. Then later. They kept raising the price (even for older tunes, try to buy something good form a pop band in the 80s, usually still $17).

    So people are limited to choose either:
    - an inflated new album price ($17+)
    - a reasonable priced album if bought used ($10 or less, but no added profit to music biz)
    - buying only the (good) songs people want on-line ($2 to $4 depending on artist, sometimes only $1)
        - Of course this is very limited people have to have the right computer, OS, listening devices, etc.
    - tape off the air ($0, low quality) digitize etc.
    - piracy ($0 low karma)

    The obvious would be to actually make the albums more affordable, but that seems way beyond the concept of the music industry.
  • by zappepcs ( 820751 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:43PM (#18497599) Journal
    I'm kind of tired of hearing these discourses on old business models, thinkoftheartists, and other old school crap. Sure, perhaps that doesn't make a lot of sense point blank, but lets face it, the CD and DVD and now other media types give artists and the **AA member businesses the method to create art that is truly worth $18. The fact that they don't get it is reason enough for them to slowly die off.

    Has anyone else caught wind of the NIN viral marketing that they are doing right now for a new album? They "GET IT" with how to use the new media and Internet. If the **AA actually got it we would not be having news stories like this. The **AA is losing, they are luddites of the new age, they are consciously killing themselves. If they would simply get on with it, create content that people would want to pay for, we could all rest easier.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by RyoShin ( 610051 )

      Has anyone else caught wind of the NIN viral marketing that they are doing right now for a new album?

      Yes, and it was actually interesting how I found out about it: radio.

      At home, I listen to my MP3s and such. At work, we're not allowed personal media, but are allowed radios, so I listen to the local rock station. They've actually been playing some of the leaked songs, which has gotten me pumped for the new CD. (Supposedly, some of the first songs were leaked by leaving flash drives in bar/club bathrooms or

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by d34thm0nk3y ( 653414 )
      Has anyone else caught wind of the NIN viral marketing that they are doing right now for a new album? They "GET IT" with how to use the new media and Internet. If the **AA actually got it we would not be having news stories like this.

      Nothing Records is a member of the RIAA.

      RIAA member page [riaa.com]
  • art vs marketing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by wall0159 ( 881759 ) on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:44PM (#18497607)

    Most bands that are interested in the art of music, rather than the business of music, make albums that are greater than the sum of their parts. The album has a theme and this changes from album to album - this can't be appreciated if one listens only to the singles.

    So yeah, the mas-produced teeny-pop bands and their labels move towards the single de jour, but real bands will continue to make albums.

    This leads to an idea I had recently. The only distinguishing value of "big" bands is the fame that fans give them - there are plenty of unsigned/indie bands that are just as good/accessible, but are unknown. The value that RIAA attributes to their songs is merely the demand that fans give it - the songs themselves are (generally) not unique or valuable. That's why their lawsuits are so bogus - they're suing fans for the value that fans give songs - not for any value that the songs have.

    This is why sites like eMusic (or youtube, etc) are great - they're cheap, and their product is just as good (if not better), but just isn't as well known and hence doesn't have the same "value".
  • by dosius ( 230542 )
    As I mentioned in another topic, I think this is insane but apparently the RIAA thinks CDs should cost $34 each [slashdot.org] due to inflation...

    Ridiculous. $10 I paid gladly, $12 was ok, but when every album costs $17+, I ain't buying.

    -uso.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Kadin2048 ( 468275 )
      As I mentioned in another topic, I think this is insane but apparently the RIAA thinks CDs should cost $34 each due to inflation...

      Actually, I would really enjoy seeing the RIAA's member companies decide to all price their CDs at $35 a piece. Yeah, just try that, guys.

      It would be the best thing that ever happened to non-RIAA music and bands, though. I also suspect that sales of blank CDs (for copying) and tapes (for recording off the radio) would skyrocket, and internet traffic would go through the roof.

      I s
  • Double Edged Sword (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26, 2007 @11:51PM (#18497637)
    I personally love albums. Even if it's not a "concept" record, it still displays a moderate range of ideas, if it's not a shit band, and can be fun to just put on and lie around and listen to.

    But what I HATE more than anything are all these "indie" bands making epic prog-rock or quiet folk albums of boring, repetitive music as a reaction to the death of the album. Dear sweet lord, I know that the idea of singles isn't that great, but an entire album without any single songs on it is even worse.

    I'm looking at you, Mars Volta. And you two, Bright Eyes. Putting people to sleep is not entertainment or art.
  • Let's talk about the larger picture here, viz. the death of IP as we know it. The writing is on the wall: in virtually every segment of the IP marketplace, distribution networks are springing up faster than anyone can police them. First it was software. Then came music. Movies within the last three years. Television within the last year and a half. Not only will these networks continue to grow, but the rate of their growth it set to increase as more people acquire broadband and as more people get online in
  • Suicide (Score:5, Insightful)

    by udoschuermann ( 158146 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @12:10AM (#18497769) Homepage
    Can't say I pity the RIAA: I used to buy CDs for $11 a piece and kept thinking that the prices would surely come down (market forces, supply and demand, right?) At $17 I think not just twice, but five times about buying a disc because it's obviously been a planned rip-off all these years.

    Along comes the internet and a new way of getting the word out and distributing music. Does the RIAA take advantage of lower (read: "nil") media costs? Do they dance with joy at all the chance of ridiculously low advertisement costs? Do they use P2P as a kind-of word of mouth mechanism? No, they sue us. Really f---ing bright idea, that, and then they wonder why I vote with my money and buy absofriggenlutely *nothing* anymore from any artist associated with the RIAA? Sheesh!

    Not sure what the IAA stands for but I know the 'R' stands for 'Retarded'.
  • It's not that they have to grapple with the fact that album sales will be down as some kind of weird thing that happened with digital music.

    The reality is that they've been pushing singles for airplay for som many years, that they have created 'albums' that have a few singles, and the rest is just songs. For most artists, there is really no crafting of an album. The reason that CD sales for releases from the 60's and 70's have remained pretty consistent is that they are albums. I can't envision listening t

    • I can't envision listening to a number of songs without hearing them in their sequence from good albumcraft.

      You mean like Abby Road, Sargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Dark Side of the Moon, and The Wall?

  • by Timbotronic ( 717458 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @12:25AM (#18497839)
    Not a politically correct thing to ask - but has anyone else ever wondered if the labels deliberately promote genres of music that are less appealing to the majority of file sharers ie. white young men?

    It's the only explanation I can think of for R&B
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by bogjobber ( 880402 )

      I know you're joking, but actually the entire creation of the umbrella term "R&B" music was to sell black music to white audiences. The music known as R&B used to be sold as "race music." It was made by and for black audiences. Some exec saw the opportunity to sell this music to a larger audience, but didn't think white people would buy "race music" so he changed the name. Oh, and the original R&B music actually *was* rhythm and blues. Most music sold today as R&B music is more like neo

  • Bands used to get signed, for example, to a 3-album contract, spanning a few years. But now the music biz wants to/needs to be able to dump artists fast, so now they're switching to contracts for only a couple of songs and a ringtone. I.e. temp workers -- no commitment, no loyalty, no being able to call a company or label your "home". Because no one really wants you, for anything other than just a casual, short-term relationship. Forget "careers" in the recording industry.
  • How do i tag this 'cry-me-a-fricken-river'?
  • by mveloso ( 325617 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @01:19AM (#18498137)
    Buried in the article was an interesting idea from the record companies themselves: instead of being the channel, they'd morph into more of a fan club model.

    That's a great idea, but they should go one step further.

    The main problem for record companies is that the record company, for the most part, is not the brand - the artist is. The artist is what's promoted, etc. What would be better, from the record company point of view, is if they had a whole bunch of sub-labels, all of which have their own genre/style/sound/whatever.

    Then, you'd know that you like the stuff coming out of a label, because all their stuff was the style you like.

    It used to be like this in the old days, where a label like Blue Note would have a whole lot of good jazz, or Elektra Nonesuch had good classical. I knew people that would buy everything that EN put out.

    Combine that with a subscription service (or music club, cd-by-mail thing I guess) and suddenly you not only have a business model, you have a core group of consumers that are committed to your label - not your artitst. That subscriber base is a guaranteed revenue stream that you can use to hunt down more stuff that your subscribers want.

    Will it lead to the homogenization of the music industry? Who cares? It's already freaking homogenized!

    It might make smaller players more viable because as a botique subscription music company you have a guaranteed revenue stream with no distribution overhead (except for the overhead you want). You can budget, plan, and not worry as much about the next payroll.

    Ideally you'd have a third-party doing the fulfillment, so all you have to do is find acts that your subscribers might like.

    It's interesting to think about, but finding that much talent would be difficult. No matter what people say, there isn't that much talent out there.
    • Done (Score:3, Informative)

      That is exactly what eMusic does. Granted they are distributing non-RIAA labels, but for your example, substitute Naxos for EN, and you've got the same thing.
  • by Dracos ( 107777 ) on Tuesday March 27, 2007 @03:28AM (#18498671)

    The record companies are suffering because their business plans and practices are increasingly short sighted. It used to be that artists were treated as long term investments, being signed for multi album deals, whereas now artists get deals for a song or two. It's another turn in the downward spiral of disposable culture that Hollywood has sold us, and the cycles keep getting shorter.

    It's horribly inefficient to operate this way. Instead of going to the grocery store once a week to buy everything you need for the coming week, you make a separate trip for every single item you need. To be even more extreme, go from buying a sack of rice every week, to a cup of rice every day, to a grain of rice every minute. Spend all your time buying rice, and you'll have no time to eat it, and starve.

    (Never mind that you can starve anyway by eating nothing but rice, but I digress.)

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