Another Anti-Terror List Impacting Businesses, Customers 237
HangingChad writes "MSNBC is running a story about yet another government database designed to thwart terrorists and drug dealers that is having impact on people with similar names. Like a no-fly list for businesses, the Office of Foreign Asset Control's list of 'specially designated nationals' has been used in the past by banks and other financial institutions to block financial transactions of drug dealers and other criminals. Use of the list was expanded after 9-11 and now includes almost any financial transaction. Moreover, there is no minimum amount of money attached to penalties for selling to someone on the list: selling a sandwich to a 'specially designated national' can have a fine for up to '$10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison.' The article goes on: 'Businesses have used it to screen applicants for home and car loans, apartments and even exercise equipment, according to interviews and a report by the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights of the San Francisco Bay area to be issued today.'"
Once again, I'm glad to have an English surname (Score:5, Interesting)
But seriously, what really sucks about this list is that it has never been widely publicized. A would venture to guess that the VAST majority of businesses in the U.S. have never even heard of it, yet could find themselves doing business with someone on it, even in a minor capacity (and facing jail time as a result).
At the other, equally disturbing, end of the spectrum, we have even tiny businesses facing the possibility of just having to completely block out anyone on it (since they don't have the time or resources to verify if this is *THE* Hassad Al-Gurandi), locking many innocent people out of even the most basic business transaction. The law puts the burden of verification almost completely on businesses themselves, leaving them little alternative. The Treasury Department, when asked about this, ducks out of it with a lame "Hey, call the guys who made the screening software, not us."
The Treasury Dept. needs to either own up to this or abolish it. If they're going to have this, they need to provide an easy, quick way to both verify someone on it and and equally easy way to get off it, if you are wrongly included.
Right now it sounds like yet another law the government can threaten businesses with, even if they've never even heard of it. Ignorance of the law may be no excuse. But when the government is knowingly hiding the laws, it should be.
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Re:Once again, I'm glad to have an English surname (Score:5, Funny)
Those might be legitimatly on there though
Re:Once again, I'm glad to have an English surname (Score:5, Interesting)
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-Eric
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Expect an interview shortly.
Re:Once again, I'm glad to have an English surname (Score:4, Informative)
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Like Charles Taylor, Agnes Taylor, Karen Matthew, Charles Bright and Donovan Marshall, you mean?
Never mind that there's plenty of citizens born and raised in this country that have names like Abu Ahmed, Shu Chen and Antonio Romero (all of which are on the list) -- are they less worthy of protection than Joe Smith?
Also worth noting is that many of the names on the list are not linked to terrorism in any way, but are either affilia
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Wonderful. So now we've established that the system has both false positives and false negatives.
(I'm not on there, either)
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11001010111111101011101010111110 11011110101011011011111011101111
Pronounced: CAFEBABE DEADBEEF
I hope that's unique enough. At least when signing up for some stupid web-service I shouldn't have to add a random 3-5 digit number to the end...
Antidiscrimination laws (Score:5, Funny)
On a brighter note, it looks like Slobodan Milosevic won't be getting a car loan here in the states any time soon:
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Since he's _dead_, getting a loan in his name would come under another entirely different statue (ie. fraud).
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yeah, but he did get a heck of a deal on his car insurance...
Slobodan Now! (Score:2)
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What anti-discrimination laws would apply to this? Seriously, at the federal level, are there any anti-discrimination statutes on the books that prevent the federal government from using nationality and/or race as a factor in determining who gets on this list? I couldn't find a single one.
And it's worth noting that for each of the people on the list (in theory if not in fact), the US government has spe
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If we save just one life... (Score:3, Funny)
What if we let him fix his car and then he drives it into a skyscraper?
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Girlfriend? Please. Woman insurance exec? Tell me another one.
I'm going to talk with my supermodel slashdot employee girlfriend about getting you chained underneath that bridge.
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Parent post:
You misread his post. He specifically stated "excec" not "exec" -- we must forgive him for forgetting to use all-caps, but CEC is the standard abbreviation for Chuck E. Cheese's.
He is obviously dating an insurance-company employee (could be any position, really) who used to work at Chuck E. Cheese's. We all know that CEC is a cover operation for NSA operations in the US (what, you didn't know where N
Re:Once again, I'm glad to have an English surname (Score:5, Insightful)
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"Is this a great country, or what?" - movie Night Shift
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I heard many years ago that a cop could, for any vehicle that hasn't just pulled out of the dealer lot, pretty much find an infraction at will. While I believe the vast majority of
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A cop *can* pull you over for driving out of a dealer's lot.
online services (Score:5, Interesting)
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First against the wall (Score:4, Insightful)
The list (Score:5, Informative)
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The list is so flawed it's funny (Score:2, Informative)
The "current" list has a modification date of "3/7/2007", but it still has Saddam Hussein on the list. Yes, that Saddam Hussein. The one who was hung last year. He is listed as being president of Iraq since 1979.
So, if Saddam Hussein comes out of the grave as an undead zombie and visits the United States he will need to use a new alias if he wants to get a mortgage.
That makes me feel much safer.
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He used to have strong links to the CIA.
Regards,
--
*Art
The important census lists of names (Score:2)
It's fun to do the math. Remember when a "David Nelson"- one criminal of concern- was on the No Fly List (Perhaps he still is)? His being there put all the 5,000 other David Nelsons on the list [aclu.org]. Assuming that each David Nelson flies just twice a year, then well over a year's worth of person-hours were wasted- each time they flew, over and over again- on confirming that the 5,000 weren't the one guy. Time lost to security, and time l
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As opposed to arresting people for doing business with individuals and companies that were on the list that nobody is allowed to see?
The List (Score:2, Redundant)
Hackers (Score:2)
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They already have half of Macedonia on it. There is an individual named Milan Ivanovic. That is almost like adding John Doe or John Smith to it.
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"Oh my god run! It's a tall Egyptian and his name is Ahmed!
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
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Oh, wait, they don't need any help. Sorry. Nevermind.
Good (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
The aim of terrorism is to instil terror into the population at large. If you become terrified, then the terrorists have beaten you.
World governments and their agencies can fight terrorism with (supposedly) practical measures, whilst the rest of us can fight terrorism by not being terrified. By mocking terrorists we're showing that they're really not achieving their goals. Go outside and declare that you're not afraid; keep flying in planes, keep going on underground trains, keep buying exercise equipment. Keep living your life, not some shadow of previous freedom you once enjoyed. The chances of being involved in a motor accident are much higher than the chances of being the victim of terrorism; don't tell me that you've stopped driving as well.
Double Pluss Good, fight this rubish. (Score:2)
the rest of us can fight terrorism by not being terrified. By mocking terrorists we're showing that they're really not achieving their goals. Go outside and declare that you're not afraid; keep flying in planes, keep going on underground trains, keep buying exercise equipment.
And protest this fucking list as an expensive, impractical and unAmerican capitulation and violation of the US constitution.
Don't give up your SSN! (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't give up your SSN to people who don't need it!
Re:Don't give up your SSN! (Score:4, Insightful)
Your experience points up the reason for the list in the first place: to block transactions that might be used by drug dealers, et. al. A cash transaction is exactly the kind of thing that could be labeled as suspicious, since drug dealers and their ilk often use legitimate purchases as a method of laundering money. And they don't do it in large amounts; a few thousand here and there is often good enough. So even though you were paying cash, that could still be construed as suspicious.
Mind you, I'm not defending the practice. I frankly think no drug dealer or terrorist in their right mind would use their name or the name of any of their known associates to move money around. far easier to get faceless minions to do it, whom they can disavow easily. It only seems to be a trap for law-abiding citizens who have the unfortunate problem of having a name similar to their local drug kingpin or international terrorist.
Re:Don't give up your SSN! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Believe it or not, but name checks and ID aren't the way to counter terrorism.
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Ron
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But if you were paying more than $10,000 cash for a vehicle, that might trigger a CTR (not sure if that's a requirement for car dealers though), in which case they do need your SSN.
Obligatory Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, there's better authors to quote (Score:2, Flamebait)
You want a good "Atlas Shrugged" quote? here's my favorite: "the band on the wrist of her naked arm gave her the most feminine of all aspects: the look of being chained." Yeah, Ayn had some serious sexual issues. Not that there's anything wrong with BDSM, heck, I like slapping around a willing playmate now and then, but Ay
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Balanced Journalism (Score:5, Insightful)
What I love about articles like this is the attempt at "balance". Notice that there are three or four examples of people who are wrongly denied services (of the how many thousand cases that have transpired?). And to "balance" this, they give what was probably the only case in history where such a check might have been relevant (at the end of the article). And even in that case, denying him a car wouldn't have changed anything. It isn't as if he couldn't take the bus to the airport.
Although this article isn't as bad as some (for example, most articles on global warming or evolution), it is a typical example of how trying to provide "balance" gives people the wrong impression of how likely different events are (i.e., in the article 4 false positives to one real hit, in reality probably many thousands of false positives to one real hit).
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just wait until they make bus drivers check intending passengers against the list when they want a ticket at the bus-stop... after all it is a financial transaction...
RFID implants next... (Score:2)
Lemme get this straight... (Score:2, Insightful)
That's great, unless you live in a place like I do in Southeast
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Useless (Score:2)
What's next? Sentenced to invisibility? (Score:2)
The Twilight Zone (1985): "To See the Invisible Man" [tv.com]
reading my bills... (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'd like to understand (Score:2)
Back of bus (Score:3, Insightful)
My apologies to the people who I may offend now, but these measures are getting more and more ridiculous by the day (just like it was rediculious that people based on skin color had to sit in the back of the bus), and nobody is doing anything about it (yet).
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So: how vague do the criteria have to be to get persons like him on a list and how many people would be on such a list as a result of that vague criteria.
You could be on that list for being a vegetarian. Or foreigner. Or Arabic, jew or black or whatever (gristian, white, poor)........
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Politician, not politicians.
You mean, people who couldn't buy sandwiches? Or are you going for a particular religion or ethnic group?
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Isn't that going to be difficult, from a practical standpoint? Not you getting off the bus, I mean, but identifying the religion of other riders? There are Muslim believers in just about all identifiable (and unidentifiable) ethnic and racial groups. And all these groups contain persons of other faiths as well. Style of dress isn't reliable, because a person can change clothes to appear to be someone else.
Since I'm a law-abiding citizen... (Score:5, Insightful)
Since I'm a law-abiding citizen, I see no problem with government surveillance, wiretaps-without-warrants, etc. They NEED these things to fight TERRORISM!!!
Are you SURE you're a law-abiding citizen? Do you know about this "Anti-Terror List?" How about the other Anti-Terror List, and that other one, over there? Do you KNOW for sure that everyone you've ever done any sort of business with is not on one of these lists, especially the secret ones that you're not allowed to see?
Then maybe you're not really a law-abiding citizen, you just don't and can't know it, at least not until WE want to tell you.
By the way, have you ever had sex using any technique other than missionary position? If so, depending on which state you live in, you may have committed a crime!
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That's just plain silly. Consenting adults, privacy, and all of that.
But then I think most drug laws are misdirected, too. Not th
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The military according to my former MP friend.
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Terror vsTerrorism (Score:2)
"anti-terror list" makes no sense unless you are distinguishing fearful people.
Likewise, a "war on terror" would end if less people were afraid.
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Which is probably why the proponents of the war on terror so often overhype the dangers of terrorism -- keeps everyone nice and scared.
(I'm about 100 times more worried about dying in a traffic accident than getting even a scratch from anything remotely related to terrorism, so I guess they've failed in my case.)
Having (almost) done business with someone... (Score:3, Interesting)
I had thought that providing services to them would be a double-edged sword. I did not have any particular interest in hosting a terrorist site, but I do not believe in censorship. Additionally, I suspected that such sites would be a good source of information for their enemies. (such as the US) On the other hand, there could be a legal danger of providing such services. Having myself worked for another hosting company that had itself hosted Al Qaeda's website during 9/11, I knew that this was no laughing matter.
Concerned, I contacted Homeland Security and the Department of Defence, which referred me to the FBI. The FBI expressed interest in this enough to have me speak with an agent via telephone. They requested to meet me in person, but due to string of bank robberies, they didn't have the time to follow through, and finally told me (by phone) that they had no problem with my company accepting money from this organization and providing services to them.
In the end, I thought it was too risky, only having a verbal confirmation of such, and decided to reject this customer. It was a few months afterwards, that I discovered this list, which was never mentioned to me by any of the discussed government agencies. At that time, I was happy to have rejected the business, but was angry that I was mislead into believing that I could safely conduct business with that organization.
In this case, I had gone through all the official channels I thought were neccessary and wise, and yet, if I had followed their advice, I would have been breaking the law! Heck, just by corresponding with these people, I likely broke some law or another. I'm quite certain at this point, that by running a small-business, esspecially online, you're just asking for reasons to be put into Guantanamo. Not that they need reasons, anymore.
At no time was I told that I shouldn't discuss this matter, so I assume that I'm free to do so, although I probably shouldn't make such assumptions.
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What the hell has happened to your country?
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The whole point is that these laws are far-extending, if not simply vague. Will they arrest the average joe-business-owner? Probably not. However, they could. The fact that they can is scary enough, as demonstrated by the famous quote of Martin Niemöller [wikipedia.org].
Thre go my plans (Score:2)
These guys are scumbags! (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, it would be sad if someone innocent was mixed up in a case of mistaken identity, but something has to be done to stop these guys... some of the entries read like a demon's resume:
NEAL, COWBOY (a.k.a. COWBOYNEAL; a.k.a. PATER, Johnathan); DOB 30 Jul 57; POB Moscow, Soviet Russia; (individual); citizen Iran; alt. citizen Libya; arrested 1 Apr 2003; escaped 2 Apr 2003; Slashdot number 4 (United States); wanted for small arms trafficking, conspiracy to commit nuclear terrorism, attempted presidential assassination, indecency with a goat [SDT] [SDGT]
This is part of economic sanctions (Score:2)
it suddenly became obvious to me (Score:2)
There must be. Otherwise they will keep doing this.
Ok that does it (Score:2)
considering u.s. public voted the idiots who are behind all these charades into power, the bush & co, and considering there are still a goodly number of people who are supporting the party behind these, the republicans, it can be said that a GREAT deal of americans in united states are utterly and plainly STUP
I don't get the whole premise (Score:2)
So long as they stand in one place outside and starve to death ?!?
so how many? (Score:2)
100, 30, 10, 3, 1, none?
The only measure of success is terrorists captured. You can't assume that a lack of attacks is because of a measure like this; the terrorists may just be having a long vacation.
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True, but people have been arrested for less [consumerist.com].
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The charges may have been dropped, however the arrest record would remain without suing the government to have the record purged. Not only that, but he probably had a lawyer by the time bail was set, and that lawyer would need to be paid.
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So that leaves $9000 to cover everything else, attorney, booking fee (believe it or not some counties make you pay for being arrested even if you're innocent), misc court fees (for filing petitions to clear your name) etc.
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Yeah. Cause these post-911 laws/regs/orders would never be abused by the authorities or used in a way that exceeded the original intent.
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Neither do you. If we're going by a legalistic, "let's see if we can find this written in the Constitution" sense of freedom, then you have precious few of them, and even those have been interpreted out of existence--"free speech zones" and so on.
The Constitution grants the government not plenary, but enumerated powers. Even if we quibble over the fine points of what powers it should have, the foundational l
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By the way, that includes noncitizens who would brung our government and society down, you now.
That's not the point. (Score:2)
No, it isn't. The fact that there is no minimum dollar amount merchants are supposed to concern themselves with is quite typical of the American style of legislation. You make a law that's ridiculously sweeping and could probably apply to anybody. You only really enforce it when you think it matters, but that ability to go after someone for a minor thing is always looming in the background.
You're right t
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Yeah, that's so unterroristic, ain't it?
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To make sure you weren't selling a sandwich to someone on this list you'd reasonably have to ID every person you sell a sandwich to. Somehow I don't think that would stand up in court, so no, there's no actual evidence to that fact and I severely doubt there ever will be.
I'm not exactly sure why someone like Bin Laden would be able to be at your deli to buy a sandwich
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We are not serious about combating terrorism, we are serious about appearing to combat terrorists.