Fun and Profit With Obsolete Computers 186
An anonymous reader writes "C|Net has a story about the value of aging computer hardware, and the subculture of people who collect them. The story details some of the more enthusiastic collectors currently participating in the hobby, as well as their old-school beautiful hardware. '[Sellam Ismail] recently brought a quarter century-old Xerox Star computer back to life to be used as evidence in a patent lawsuit. The pride of his collection is an Apple Lisa, one of the first computers (introduced in 1983) with a now standard graphical interface. Such items sell for more than $10,000. In an old barn in Northern California that also houses pigs, Bruce Damer, 45, keeps a collection that includes a Cray-1 supercomputer, a Xerox Alto (an early microcomputer introduced in 1973) and early Apple prototypes. '
30 years from now (Score:2, Funny)
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wrong (Score:2)
Wrong
Well, not about the custom PC, but very much so in the case of the Dell.
You know what makes something interesting/valuable to collectors? Rarity. If millions of people chuck their Dells, but you keep yours, especially if you keep a set that shows the incremental development of the desktop PC over a few years, then that's a collectable.
A lot of people let old hardware slip through their fingers without wondering whether it might be significant. We
Re:wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
A dull Dell box (pun intended) is not interesting unless it has a unique form factor.
That 21 inch screen notebook monstruosity is such thing. Buy it and keep it functioning for the next 30 years and you will have something. There was also a Compaq desktop with a built-in LCD. I have a Monorail PC that still boots - it had it's HD and CD-ROM changed because they no longer worked. There is also a Sony Vaio whose keyboard folds up to cover half the screen as it becomes a stereo. There were a couple Compaq models with integrated monitors that were interestingly iMac-like.
Those are interesting PCs. No grey box, no matter how rare it is, will ever become interesting.
Anyway, most interesting computers are not PCs. A Sparcstation 1 is interesting as is a Voyager. Just about every SGI box is somewhat unique. If you are shopping today, buy a Tezro. If you want a Sun, buy a desktop SPARC (the amd64s are just PCs). IBM RS/6000s are a bit on the PC side, but are OK. Apples are very diverse and an interesting piece of study. The "flex-chassis" series is very interesting because of the modular mobos. The tower G3 is interesting because every time you open it, it draws blood from your hand. An IBM 3290 terminal is unique as it had a red plasma screen. An NCD 16 X terminal is interesting because of the square CRT. Any Lisp Machine is worth having. The Convergent non-PC x86 machines are very interesting as is their OS.
Rarity is for newcomers that don't really get it. It is a tool for those who can't see the other forms of value and for those who do to get rid of rare and dull hardware.
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no need.. (Score:2)
Aha! (Score:4, Funny)
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But I didn't think those assmuppets acknowledged anything Apple that wasn't Mac.
Re:Aha! (Score:5, Funny)
-Adam
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One Upmanship! I'v got a 28 year old DEC LSI 11/23 computer and a VT100 terminal. When put into storage about 17 years ago it was still working with RT-11. The old DEC OS manuals are still with it also. Maybe I'll dig it out and see if it will still run off same of those old 8" floppies that are with it. It even has a 20Mb (fancy that!) HD in a separate big heavy box.
classiccmp (Score:5, Insightful)
A couple of years ago I was involved in the dissemination of a collection in the south-east of England. From the PDP-11/43 that had people offering to drive over from northern Europe, to the blue Intel MDS to Spain, the old Dragon to America, the stalwart CJE Micros grabbing up the BBC's Torch coprocessor, to the steady stream of people each collecting a VAX, it was amazing to see the interest and enthusiasm.
Three nice things about old machines:
(1) Simple enough that a single human can understand how they work;
(2) Scaled such that this same human can fix problems in his garage;
(3) Sufficiently well built that (2) can sometimes be unnecessary even after 20 years.
For Our Retirement (Score:5, Funny)
Plus, Lemmings looks surprisingly good on the big TV in the living room.
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Many is the morning I have woken up to the sound of my wife yelling at her mother, and her mother cackling with glee in return, over some sudden trick which has allowed her to "steal" her daughter's lemmings.
Creepy (Score:5, Funny)
Frankly, I don't get the collector (cough, mental illness hoarding, cough) mentality. I suppose I'll sit back and watch this thread for awhile and feed my 30 cats.
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Oldies (Score:2)
It's purely nostalgia, not a money-making venture. My first computer was a ZX81, saved up for and bought new 24 years ago, and I still remember it like it was yesterday. (In fact, I still have it.)
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It is often hard to predict what will succeed. If it's an interesting but rare device, then there are chances. If it's interesting but not so rare, then your only chances to make money are if there's demand because there's a common failure mode and hope that yours doesn't succumb to that failure. If it's just rare, then there's little chance unless you find a collect
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I still enjoy many of the Spectrum games. This month, by the way, is the 25th anniversary, and
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I have about every mod I could find in books: hardwired a keyboard, metal keyboard case, power switch, power LED, reset button, even added a joystick port for a modified Commodore stick for the flight simulator. Hardwired in the 16K module so I could mount the bus out for expansion. Sound card, printer, and something called a "stringy floppy" -- a video tape micro-cassette drive that was about as fast as a Commodore 5-1/4" floppy. Love to show you a picture on my vanity DSL server
Re:Oldies (Score:5, Informative)
In another 30 years, many of these oldies will have died (if they haven't already) due to a variety of reasons. Mostly plain mechanical parts (cheap plastic, foil keyboard switches, rubber rolls crumbling and so on). Also think of programmed parts (EPROMs, programmable microcontrollers included for a specific task etc) that go into an erased state after a long, but finite time (usually several decades).
But if your machine still works after 30 years, plugging it into a monitor won't be the hard part. Last time I checked, even many of the latest LCD TV's have a variety of analog inputs. Why? Because analog inputs are often useful to hook up monitors to the widest possible variety of replay equipment. Even if many modern equipment is 'digitised', you're a fool to think that the option to display analog signals will disappear completely. Think of analog signals in general as a lower-level thing than most digital signals, meaning it's easier to do something with it, and easy to include in display equipment at near-zero added cost.
With audio, things are even easier/simpler.
For example this Sinclair ZX81 produces a TV UHF signal, but it's easy to pick up a plain composite video signal from its insides. Some soldering of wires might be required, but I expect you'll have a hard time finding a brandnew LCD TV that is not capable of producing an image with that.
One thing I personally like about these early Sinclair machines, is that they're built simple enough to recreate them with plain discrete logic, and perhaps a few analog parts. No complex video circuitry, no audio, a well-understood CPU and so on. Enough for instance to program a FPGA to behave like a ZX81 (try Google [google.com] if you're interested). Also makes these machines relatively easy to repair. For ZX81: if you got the time, tools and knowledge, you can repair/keep these machines running as long as you want. I myself own 2 of these, last time I checked both were still working. 25 years old by now, and I'm pretty sure I can have these in a working state longer than a PC bought new today.
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Of course, my Atari 1200XL seemed to survive just fine... go figure!
Thanks,
Mike
There is a down side (Score:5, Funny)
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Oh my God! ...s'full of post-its!!! (Score:2)
Crap.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Best for learning programming (Score:5, Insightful)
On a modern computer, everything is wrapped into so many of abstraction that you can not discover how it works. It will take someone 3 years of experience to create a device driver or a graphics library that can be understood in 3 weeks on an old PC.
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Re:Best for learning programming (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Best for learning programming (Score:5, Insightful)
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IS the hardware... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, because the modern hardware IS a Bresenham algo - it's called a graphic card.
Re:Best for learning programming (Score:5, Interesting)
Similarly, from Pentium 3 onwards the APIC has changed drastically so the interrupt controller handling is no longer the same. Granted, you can run it in backwards compatible mode, but it is not the same.
Similarly, IO on PCI devices is clearly nowhere near the original IO on x86. While there is some backward compatibility present, you have to go and do at least some bridge programming to get anywhere. That was not the case with any of the 8 and 16 bit IO on systems all the way up to the early 486-es. You could manipulate every device separately ignoring most bus issues.
Overall, nowdays if you want to teach anything low level you have to go to a simpler architecture like one of the 32 bit MIPS architectures. x86 in its current form is too complex to be useable even for an advanced college level architecture and drivers class.
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its like whining that nobody in the aviation industrie learns how to paint a zeppelin or something.
Re:Best for learning programming (Score:5, Interesting)
As an industry we're now finding it very hard to employ people who know this kind of stuff. Most graduates are taught Java or C++ and have no decent experience at the assembler or hardware level. Now I'm not saying that we spend all day hand-crafting assembly code - games are just far too big nowadays - but every now and then you'll get an unusual crash which can only be debugged using knowledge of the hardware. In my experience CS graduates just freak out when you show them a disassembly of their code!
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On the other hand, in my experience electrical and computer engineers (i.e. hardware engineers) are getting this sort of low-level experience, albeit without the higher-level abstract programming science that a computer science major (i.e. software engineer) would receive. Thus, at least at my company, the hardware
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We had projects like, take this assembly and produce the C it came from (graded with diff), and the "bomb" which was an executable we had to trace through to figure out what number it wanted as an
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Re:Best for learning programming (Score:5, Interesting)
To learn system programming, it is a bad deal compared to a microcontroller with an emulator, or even a refurbished GBA with a flash card:
With only 15 interrupts lines, cascaded into 2 8-lines banks, the IBM PC is quite limited, and you still have the trouble to handle the cascaded handlers.
But if the 8086 processor understands a subset of the complete assembly language from the current PC, the timings constraints are completely different: the cost of an instruction for a 8086 accessing directly the main memory completely changes as soon as you have cache, which is essential for modern computers. And with the mess that x86 assembly is, I'd prefer dabbling with ARM assembly instead.
OK - but it is not alone on that segment.
Disk structures ? The cylinder/head/track abstraction that come with the floppy disks is compulsory on old IBM PCs. The LBA method is much more straightforward. No one should need to learn a complex, obsolete abstraction that doesn't even correspond to the reality anymore.
Old DEC gear (Score:5, Interesting)
...used to sum up my job. We used to get spare PDP/11 parts from people like the those in the article. The DEC maintenance guys at the time told me about a factory they knew about which relied absolutely on a PDP/8. Service calls there were a challenge, to say the least.
Towards the end of my stint at Vic Roads the foam padding stuck to the top of the slide out boxes on the 11/84's had turned to dust and collected around the base of all the mux cards where they go into the backplane. Swap out a card and spend the next couple of hours vacuming out the backplane to get it working again. Installing a SCSI card was a challenge. You slide out the CPU box and get yourself organised by lying flat on your back underneath it. Like taking the transmission out of a car. The you identify the wire wrap cable for the slot which is going to take the card and repatch the appropriate interrupt line. On some of them you were lucky, there would be little shorting patches which you could pull off, like on the back of an IDE disk. Don't muck up the backplane in the process because people need traffic lights, you know.
I've got an ohio scientific superboard 2 in my spare parts cabinet. As long as I can still find a TV which listens to an RF modulator I am free to run up the micro assembler and hack away. My son is 5 now. In 7 years he will be the same age as me when my dad built that machine up.
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Sounds like a card we were plugging into DOS boxes in the 1990's to replace a PDP/11. The application in our case was SCATS, which does all the coordination between the signal controllers.
Old Computer Worth More For Software. (Score:2)
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Use them around the house. (Score:2)
The Thinkpad may be left unmolested though I'm considering making it a d
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Yeah, that all fun... I do the same thing, but this is not the category of machines that these people collect. Wintel machines aren't even in the picture. Sure, I had a P-166/256Meg RAM functioning 24/7 as a home server. I decomissioned it when motherboard/cpu combos became so cheap that I could replace it with modern components for pretty much no money. Today my home server is an AMD64 2800+/512Meg RAM. It also doubles as a space heater ;-)
Today, I wouldn't even spend money on such a machine becaus
Collecting... (Score:2)
Demo scene (Score:4, Interesting)
Although reportedly, even in the demo scene there is an on-going shift to PC hardware. The Amiga and Atari lovers are getting smaller.
On another note, he told me that when his group returned from a recent demo party by car, they noticed the little mileage markers (marking every 100 meter on European highways). They drove and counted 133.5, 133.6, and then saw that 133.7 was gone
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Re:Demo scene (Score:4, Insightful)
However... there's no longer such a thing as 'The PC Demo Scene'; even those who claim there is are realizing it is rapidly degenerating. The reason for this is the extensive hardware acceleration of any type found in PCs these days. It used to be a challenge to stick a procedurally generated 3D scene with an 8-track MOD in a small exe and have it run fluidly on a 386 with a basic VGA card and a SoundBlaster. Nowadays one just takes the regular 3D scene along with an MP3 and feed it to the graphics card and through a simple decoder straight to audio.
From the Gravis UltraSound to the S3, every hardware development was greedily taken advantage of by showing new things that could be done on that hardware... but they've reached a saturation point several years back. If you want to pump the best results out of a graphics card now, you're not doing so in a demo.. you're doing so for profit on a major game engine.
What is left, then, is a limited form of a PC Demo Scene.. demos under 4k, 16k, 32k and 64k (existed before, but these are still challenging now even with all the hardware).. demos that must run on older hardware.. self-imposed restrictions like "no using pixel shaders", etc. But these are all highly artificial limits and no longer push the boundaries of what one can do on the hardware as is... it's pushing the boundaries of what one can do within those artificial limits.
To some that is the same spirit, to others it's nothing alike at all.
=====
To see what people are doing with PC demos nowadays, Farbrausch's debris is a nice one to check out. You don't need the hardware to run it, there's videos made of the things.
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=30244 [pouet.net]
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There was one demo for atari vcs, two for zx spectrum, one for atari xl/xe, one for the msx, one for ti-83 but also newer consoles as nintendo ds, gameboy advance, xbox 360 and psp etc... And in amiga there were 8 demos and 8 intros (6 64kb and 2 4k limits) and in the c64 there were 6 demos... check them out at http://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=450&when=2007 [pouet.net]
But of course there are also pc competition
Check out this classic Amiga demo on C64. (Score:3, Informative)
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Tell me about it... (Score:4, Funny)
four Sinclair Spectrums (rubber key 48K, two Spectrum+, and a toast rack Spectrum 128)
a MicroVAX
a Sun Ultra 5 (used as a server)
Out of all of them, the Sinclair machines are the most fun.
A little song that sums up why the Speccy was (and still is!) so much fun:
http://www2.b3ta.com/heyhey16k/heyhey16k.swf [b3ta.com] (warning, flash)
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The rarest machine in my collection is an Apple
My other odd machine is an IBM PowerPC laptop, from the brief period in the mid-90s where Apple and IBM and I think Motorola were making CHRP (common hardware reference platform) machines. The laptop runs AIX, but I believe there was also a version of Windows NT for PowerPC for it.
Other ma
FOUR?? (Score:2)
n00b: Me too! Me too! *waves hands* (Score:4, Funny)
I have Caldera OpenLinux Base 1.1 installed on all, with Sun's Distributed Computing software, and I STILL can't get WoW or City of Heroes to run....guess I need to go RTFM AGAIN!!!
They're not worth the space they take up (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, if people have enough space to start their own personal museum, I'm not going to tell them not to. But if you're an ordinary person with an ordinary house, you're better off putting them on the verge for the next council bulk rubbish collection.
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Well, for certain limited purposes they can be useful. I've got a Mac SE/30 running as my vanity page webserver [homeunix.org]. What exactly are the odds of somebody writing an automatic exploit for an obscure httpd running on a (relatively) obscure OS on an obscure hardware platform? The only way someone's going to break into that thing is with a custom exploit, and there's no point in spending that kind of effort.
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A Cray 1 would be an enti
Obsolyte! (Score:5, Informative)
The Apple Lisa is highly prized (although at one point, Apple was filling landfills with 'em and Sun Remarketing was selling what remained for $200 a pop), but the Mac 512k is pretty much ignored (although the original 128k Mac is valuable).
I have no idea what my old NeXT-Station is worth, but, it'll never be worth what the original Cube is. I have a pretty decent collection of SGI gear, but, does anyone care about SGI at this point? If you look on ebay, people can't even give that stuff away.
And while the Amiga may be the greatest computer ever made, you'd have trouble these days selling your A2000, no matter how tricked out it is (free Video toaster!). The Amiga collector market is saturated, anybody that wants an Amiga probably already has more than 2.
And you'll still find the venerable C=64 and Apple
Of course, should you have an original Altair in your basement, that's another story entirely.
TTYL
Brian Cirulnick
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1. Old Computers (Score:2)
3.
4. Profit!!!
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Re:I Haven't Got The Patience (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to collect Commodore and Nintendo stuff. I have a pretty good collection of Nintendo hardware; NES, SNES, N64, a handful of games, extra controllers, light guns, the works. I even have the beginnings of a Sega collection. It's all operational as well after a lot of cleaning and TLC. It takes a lot of time to resurrect the older hardware and make it functional. If you don't have the tech skills to replace fried components or even repair damaged PCBs and connectors its really not worth doing. You often buy two or three dud machines to turn them into one functional one.
There's no point having a machine if you don't have a decent collection of software to run on it. Sure, you can often download the software illegally but for cart-based systems then you need to find a working cart emulator, assuming one existed for your platform and you still can't play anything with SuperFX-type addons on cart emulators.
Collecting the retro stuff is also time consuming. You have to be on the lookout everywhere. Ebay is good, but there's a lot of crap on there that people are trying to flog off for more than it's worth. I see a lot of stuff that says "condition unknown" then with a min bid of $50. That could mean it's totally fried but you have to decide whether to take that gamble. There's always stuff advertised in the local trading rag and the local news, as well as other websites and swap meets that come and go. If you don't keep abrest (all you nerds tremble before the breast) of current prices you're lialbe to get royally screwed.
I sorely miss being able to play some of the games that I played as I was growing up, but I remember back to when I used to play. We'd sit up all night hammering away at the game. That was the only way. When you're on a limited time budget (as you are when you're working for the man and have other commitments) you can't do that anywhere near as often as you'd like.
Good luck to those who want to get into the collection hobby. It's fun and rewarding. If you just want to hoarde junk stay for the sake of being able to say "i have that" without ever actually doing anything with it then you should probably find another hobby; there are some of us who like to restore hardware and it's difficult to do unless you can get enough bits. If they're getting snapped up by hoarders then it takes the fun away for a lot of us.
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Collect laptops... (Score:2)
Laptops are easy to store, so you don't have a big physical space issue like you do with some of the minicomputers and even some micros. Earlier vintage laptops don't require special po
Doesn't work for me (Score:2)
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Profit, really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Think of it this way. If I told you that I wanted you to keep your current computer and all related peripherals for the next *30 years*, in working order, how much would I have to pay you to do that? I bet you'd ask for a lot more than $10k.
Same goes for any "collector's" item. People are amazed that a #1 issue of a golden age comic book will get $5,000 and up, and talk about it like it's an extraordinary profit for the seller. Ok, here's $5,000 -- now keep this piece of paper in pristine condition and obsess over it for the next 30 years. Sound like something you'd want to take up?
Yes, the prices are high but that doesn't imply profit by any human measure of economy.
Lesson #1: missing the point (Score:3, Interesting)
The profit comes when you discover this stuff 30 years later, in good condition, by chance - and everyone else threw theirs out. Not that you stored it personally, yourself, all this time.
Incidentally, you can rent climate controlled storage space
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Yeah, but people don't run their homes like businesses. They don't maximize the profitability of every square inch. If you didn't have an old computer there, you would be spending $10,000 to house a lamp, a box of old papers, or absolutely nothing. It's a sunk cost.
Unless you keep the machine running 24/7, then you have to factor in the electricity
Grrrr .. (Score:3, Funny)
Bastards.
Sun Sparc pizzaboxes are still quite useful (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, and they'll run Linux or a few of the BSD's just fine..
Here is the uptime of one of my production Sparc 20's hosting a bit of email and DNS:
[matt@darkside]$ uptime
9:43AM up 953 days, 16:03, 1 user, load averages: 0.11, 0.11, 0.08
It would be well over 1,000 if a UPS hadn't needed replaced 953 days ago.
run Linux for a greener earth (Score:2)
I was using a P266 laptop behind the 133 for a while and stripped down a knopp
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SGI, anyone? (Score:2)
Of course, the system itself has lost much of the luster over the years, when you consider that current desktop computers (and even game consoles) are able to do in realti
So, what's an HP-150 with Touch Screen worth now? (Score:2, Interesting)
TIA
recyclers and colector items. (Score:2)
That can be hard to do even if you find a free recycling event as they may be limited to once a year and only for a part day (not 8 hours).
If you are a serious collector then you've done your research as to what is worth keeping and know the cost of maintainance as moving hardware components can deterio
The really hard part of acquiring old computers (Score:4, Informative)
There are even a lot of manuals floating around
keep a manual or two when the machine was replaced.
However, the software - which is perhaps the heart of the machine - and the cables
tended to get thrown away separately as soon as the CPU was closed down.
For example for the most popular mainframe in the UK in the 1970s - the ICL1900 series -
most of the small machine software (the operators Executive; the operating systems
George I & II; and the compilers that were used on the small machines like the 4K
versions of Algol and Fortran) seems to have been lost. It is lucky that one project
has managed to preserve the large system operating system (George 3) and some
related software
is tricky, to say the least.
I have also seen no evidence that anyone has preserved the GeCOS operating system
from the large Honeywell systems (6000, and its successor the Level 66). OK, it is
not so "special" as Multics, which ran on similar hardware, but still does contain
many interesting features - most notably in file handing. For that matter has the
B programming language (predecessor of C, designed for large-word oriented machines)
been saved anywhere?
How the prices have dropped. (Score:2)
The 2GB of RAM in my computer only cost 6 cents per meg. And the hard drives, well lets look at that.
You can score a 500GB SATA drive for about $100 now. If my math is right, that's less than a penny per meg.
And we're seeing the price of static RAM drop like a rock too. You've already got 320GB SSD's out there.
Famous words from... (Score:2, Insightful)
Famous words from a
- genius
- mad genius
- evil mad genius
- visionary
A sad loss (Score:2)
It was very DEC centric in some respects, but had other oddities like a Packard-Bell 250 that used acoustic delay lines for registers. The KL-10 was a beautiful beast too, it's ancestry included belonging to Sikorsky for some time.
But gentrification had its way with the society. The web site is gone and the collection had to be moved at least once because of rehabilitation of the building that
I live this stuff every day. (Score:2)
I have a warehouse full of PC's. I have a fully operational ROLM phone system configured to handle 10,000 (ten thousand) lines. I have a Data General Mini Computer. On and on and on.. So many CRT's I can't count them all. Dot matrix printers the size of golf carts.
What ya need that's obsolete? I got ya covered.
Poor Investments (Score:2)
Collecting old computers is all about the fun. Unless, of course, you find some obs
Sun ULTRA 1 (Score:2)
I wonder what this stuff will be worth in 30 years (Score:2)
- Sun SparcStation 10MP, 4x55MHz Ross Hypersparc, 128MB RAM, 9.1GB HD, Solaris 9
- Sun 3/80, 25MHz 68030 (I think), 68882, can't remember the ram, no HD at the moment
- Sun Ultra 1 Creator 3D, 200MHz Ultrasparc I, 192MB RAM, 4.3GB HD, Aurora Linux
- Sun Ultra 10 Creator, 333MHz Ultrasparc IIi, 576MB RAM, 6.4GB HD, Solaris 10
- SGI Iris Indigo, 33MHz MIPS R3000, 16MB RAM, 420MB and 1.2GB HD, 8-bit graphics, Irix 5.3
- HP Apollo DN300 (can't
SID Chips (Score:2)
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Twenty or so years later, I picked one up for $50. Hauled it home, fumbled with the not-quite-GPIB cables, finally got everything hooked