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Star Wars Prequels Media Movies Television

CG Television Clone Wars Trailer Released 201

Ant writes "The official Star Wars site has up the one minute and 50 second trailer for the upcoming computer rendered Clone Wars." I'm still not sold on the CG, but the models seem to be somewhat based on Genndy Tartakovsky's designs from the original Clone Wars series. Wikipedia offers a bevy of details on the series.
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CG Television Clone Wars Trailer Released

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  • by bigtomrodney ( 993427 ) * on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:12PM (#19294609)
    I can't say I'm sold on this. I enjoyed the Clone Wars cartoon series but even as a die hard Star Wars fan I feel this is flogging a dead horse. Lucas should have his special effects taken away from him and be sent to his room until he remembers how to make a good film (or in this case series).

    The saddest thing is that despite my protest I'm sure I'll watch it, secretly hoarde some action figures from the series and own every reissue of the new Clone Wars boxset for the next twenty years.
  • LOL! I guess Lucas has to pay for his indie films somehow...
  • by jzuska ( 65827 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:14PM (#19294633) Homepage
    Star wars isn't cool anymore. Even for us.
  • by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:20PM (#19294701)
  • Wikipedia offers a bevy of details on the series.

    Or it used to...

    just kidding. love you wiki :)
    • In addition to my flip remark, I would like to ask - what does everyone think of articles linking to wikipedia as a source? There's no expectation of being static so the page may be radically different after it's posted to slashdot or when someone views this slashdot page in 10 years.
      • by catbutt ( 469582 )
        I'd say the chance of the article being intact is far greater than the chance of any non-wikipedia page being operationsl after being linked on slashdot.

        Most likely, if a high activity page gets vandalized or made "radically different", it will be corrected in about 30 seconds. I suspect your concern is more of a theoretical one than a real world one.
  • by Supurcell ( 834022 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:23PM (#19294735)
    Why is George Lucas bothering to remake the Clone Wars shorts when he knows that everyone really wants prequels to the Ewok Adventure series? I want to see what Wilfred Brimley's character, from Ewoks: Battle for Endor, was like when he was a kid.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      I want to see what Wilfred Brimley's character, from Ewoks: Battle for Endor, was like when he was a kid.

      He looked pretty much the same just his diapers and mustache were smaller.

  • by Gopal.V ( 532678 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:25PM (#19294745) Homepage Journal

    Dexter's laboratory, Samurai Jack and Powerpuff Girls are enough to establish his genius []. But he managed to turn around my opinion [] about Star Wars (as someone born in the eighties and having got a TV in the nineties) - while reinforcing my low opinion of George Lucas's later work. Samurai Jack is really another example of a long epic saga, minimalistically drawn, yet full of life, twists and curve balls.

    Hopefully, they borrow the good parts from his work and not go all CG centric over the story telling part.

    • Aye. Frankly, when I first heard of the new series, I was quite hopeful that we'd see a reprisal of Mr. Tartakovsky's gifts once again. I think the BIGGEST example of the man's work was when I went to see episode 3 and said to myself, "Wow, what happened to the bad-a$$ characters I fell in love with?!?"

      Let's be honest with ourselves; the new series will be a much more 'genuine' extension of the prequels: corporate machinery capitalizing on a loyal fan base.

    • We can only hope that he is involved in this CG version too...

      Certainly Tartakovisky work had an huge influence on this new series, is just a matter of looking at the overall look and style of the characters. Some people complained that the CG didn't look impressive... well, it doesn't have to be!

      Compare for example the Final Fantasy movie with the Incredibles... in which one the characters seems to be more alive, more real? Better, compare the Clone Wars animated series with the 3 latest films... Tartakovi
    • by fermion ( 181285 )
      For those who might have been absent to animation during the 90's, there were two huge creative forces. One was Genndy Tartakovsky, the other was Garbor Csupo. Together they created the revival in children's animation, and has probably been a part of every major children's animated show. The creative drive has been incredible.

      Clone Wars is certainly just another in a line of creatively disastrous attempt to monetize the dry Star Wars franchise. In spite of this, if Lucas steps away and gives Tartakovs

  • Is this just a retread of those cartoons, or is it a different plotline?

    Some of it looks okay- but there's one spectacularly lame scene where the trooper yells 'get ready!' dramatically, and then the door slowly opens to reveal: 5 of those dorkbots from phantom menace going 'pew-pew'.
    • Looks like a different plotline after the cartoons to me.

      And I thought it looked cool, CG isn't everyone's thing of course but I happen to like it and that looked good. The character models were a little cartoony but the ships and stuff looked awesome.
  • Well obviously... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aarku ( 151823 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:31PM (#19294789) Journal
    It's not supposed to be photorealistic CG. Whether or not they successfully stylized it is the question. It's just like how Pixar decided to make more cartoony CG and was wildly successful with it, while things like the Final Fantasy movie tried photorealism and failed. I can't make up my mind based on a low bitrate low resolution trailer.
    • FF7: Advent Children's CGI was more successful, I think, but that may be because they backed down on the photorealism a tiny bit since they were working from existing video game designs. For what it's worth, I think a movie based on a suitably epic (or maybe just long-winded) action anime like Dragonball Z or Fist of the North Star would be a very good movie.
  • Ironically, this will probably turn out to be better than the prequels. I mean, we don't expect convincing performances from a bunch of CG characters.

    The lower our expectations are, the happier we'll be.
    • by dircha ( 893383 )
      "I mean, we don't expect convincing performances from a bunch of CG characters."

      No actor could have salvaged the Hayden Christensen character. The character was poorly conceived and the dialogue was atrocious - really, really bad.

      But when it comes to CG characters, all we have is the dialogue and the story, unless you just want to go the stylized eye candy route.
    • by 1u3hr ( 530656 )
      better than the prequels. I mean, we don't expect convincing performances from a bunch of CG characters.

      Really, the actors weren't the problem. It was the script. The actors had to dull their minds to utter it. A troupe of Oscar-winners couldn't have saved them.

      • Having seen Natalie Portman in other films... I'm going to have to go with.... it was her. She can't act. She has the emotional range of a head trauma patient.

        Lucas' insistence on casting relative unknowns for the leads bit him in the ass this time.... he got lucky with 60% of the actors in the original trilogy. (Mark Hamill was a whiner throughout that series...)

        And Hayden wasn't exactly high-caliber talent either... his range of emotions went from stoic to whiny in 3 takes... His "best" work... his cat
  • Its to bad Leia looks like she has Anorexia.
  • CG WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Thumper_SVX ( 239525 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @05:45PM (#19294913) Homepage
    Why is everyone making a big deal that the CG looks crap? BFD! It's about the stories, not the CG. I couldn't care less if it's done with bits of paper on a glass sheet background so long as the stories are written and voiced reasonably well.

    No, the CG doesn't look real... you really want it to? I'd prefer something with a little style, a little "not real". Have you watched Polar Express? The characters looked real, and moved realistically alright... but they also looked like propped up corpses because despite all the work of the artists they STILL couldn't quite get it real enough.

    There's only so far you can go along the path of making CG realistic. At a certain point you have to start thinking about the look and the flow of the thing instead of whether or not you're rendering 1000 different pores on a human nose. I personally liked the trailer, I think it looked pretty good. The CG doesn't look realistic, and I for one am glad of it. It gives the CG animated series a certain flair.

    Did anyone here watch TMNT at the theatres recently? I did with my 6-year-old son and loved it. The story was strong, the characters were well rendered... but realistic it wasn't. It was stylized, but in a way that to me and my son made the characters MORE believable. It's hard to accept an unreal world when there are real people up on the screen. Similarly, it's hard to accept the real world with unreal characters... we use what's called willing suspension of disbelief in order to take some aspects on faith.

    Now, whether or not they can actually get some good stories in this is open to be seen. I won't make any quick judgments; sure Lucas has created some tripe like Episode 1... but mostly because it was more about him experimenting with what he could do with CG than writing a good story. Episodes 2 and 3 both improved on this formula but still didn't quite match Empire Strikes Back (though I still think Episode 3 was better (or at least equal) in almost every respect than Return of the Jedi). Since this is going to be all CG, there are no limits and nothing to prove. The only thing he CAN prove with a CG Star Wars is that he can still write. If he can't, the show will fail since there are million and one "also-rans" in this race.

    I'll wait and see. The trailer gives is little to go on as far as whether or not the writing is better here than in the prequels. Lucas has written good stuff in his life; look at THX-1138. If he can do it again, this'll be good. If not, then maybe it'll get an audience with the current pre-teen crowd who enjoyed the prequels. However, without strong stories you'll lose them and there'll be no "rewatching" ability.
    • by Shados ( 741919 )
      I agree with you. Besides, people always complain that producers spend too much of their budget on special effects, and not enough on plot, story, etc. Well, thats exactly what would happen if this was made "Final Fantasy" quality. Now by taking a bit of a hit on the visuals, they can spend some ressources elsewhere. Plus, it really looks just fine to me.
    • Re:CG WTF? (Score:5, Funny)

      by bmo ( 77928 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @06:18PM (#19295147)
      "Lucas has written good stuff in his life; look at THX-1138."

      Yes, but that was before the Star Wars _franchise_. It's no longer about the story. It's about the money, and how many people will grit their teeth while paying for movie tickets because all of us 40 year olds want our childhood back. But that's because we're all suckers and figure "well he can't rape our childhoods THAT much, can he?"

      Yes. Yes he can. Meesa givesa upsa after Episode Onesa...

      As to how far he can sink, do you remember the Christmas Special? Did you gouge your eyes out? []

      Bea...Arthur... BEA FREAKIN ARTHUR!


    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Icarus1919 ( 802533 )
      I believe you are experiencing the Uncanny Valley Effect [] when you speak of your preference for less realistic and more stylized story telling. Most people agree with you. CG characters that are almost but not quite real enough are weird and slightly creepy.
      • by Raenex ( 947668 )
        I think Shrek 2 was the first movie I saw that managed to get realistic humans that have gotten beyond the valley. It's kinda surprising to see this regression.
        • I actually think Shrek2 was on the left side of The Uncanny Valley Graph [] rather than on the right side. I think the left side, starting to dip, but definitely still above the 0-line on Y (they were not repulsive like, for example, EQ2's or Oblivion's models can be, though they were just a little uncanny).
    • by coaxial ( 28297 )
      But if the visuals don't matter, why does the voice?
    • Why is everyone making a big deal that the CG looks crap? BFD! It's about the stories, not the CG.

      Well ... maybe because prettiness of the computer graphics is the only thing left in George Lucas's work now, that doesn't suck?

      If it's "about the stories" now, everything Lucas made after Return of the Jedi, is crap.
      • The dancing teddy bears killed RotJ. If you delete 90% of the teddy scenes, including the entire party scene at the end, it would become more watchable.
    • What people are grasping for here is that these are CGI models moving in 3-D, but they were based on Genndy Tartakovsky's stylized TWO dimensional designs.

      For two-dimensional design, all those angles and swoopy bits add drama and impact. They're shape and composition aids.

      In 3-D, the characters just look like retarded monkeybots. It's perfectly possible to do stylized 3-D well (The Incredibles) but you have to focus on the nature of the medium. You need round characters that still look like themselves when
    • Plus it looks like it has a lot more General Grievous. He's the best villain to come out of the three prequels by FAR, and doesn't get nearly enough screen time.
    • by Guppy06 ( 410832 )
      "Why is everyone making a big deal that the CG looks crap? BFD! It's about the stories, not the CG."

      If it were truly "about the stories, not the CG," there'd be no CG to begin with because the stories have already been published with (mostly) hand-drawn goodness.
    • Why is everyone making a big deal that the CG looks crap? BFD! It's about the stories, not the CG. I couldn't care less if it's done with bits of paper on a glass sheet background so long as the stories are written and voiced reasonably well.

      I disagree. Why must it be impossible to tell a good story and look good while you're at it? That CG looks like the Proud Family [] or something. They're terrible.

      I'd take the crappy ca. 1987 GI Joe/Transformers animation over this type of CG any day. At least I'm not

  • Can somebody please withdraw the treasure of the Star Wars from George Luca$ before he destroy it completely? His gift was given to the world in 1977. He GAVE it to us. Now he keep giving gifts. One gift was enough.
    • Just take away all the dialogue from Lucas. From Jar-Jar Binks needing to light up some big ganja to complete his ethnic caricature, to the "Fu Manchu Menace" of the Trade Federation accents, to taking the amazingly hot and intelligent and skillful character of Padma and turning her into 15 year-old's dream of how princesses would worship their manly manhood while losing every characteristic that made them hot, Lucas's dialogue in the prequels was an absolute failure.

      Replacing all the dialogue with old "Bon
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      He GAVE it to us

      I may have only been 12, but I distinctly recall paying $6 for it.

  • This new series (which looks like a continuation of the previous Clone Wars) will be directed by Dave Filoni [] (Avatar, Dave the Barbarian), and in my opinion is a step down from Tartakowsky. We'll just have to see if the writing staff does as good a job with this as before. Also: Please, George, no more 5 minute episodes! Those were a torture...
  • Looks quite like what's done with Penny Arcade: On The Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness: Episode One []
    • by Winckle ( 870180 )
      Which is a bit silly, when you consider the difference in budget between the two projects.
  • >I'm still not sold on the CG,

    This kind of CG doesn't look expensive..

    At least the animation seems ok: IMHO, it's more important to have a good animation that to have a nice CG.
  • I'm really looking forward to this. I loved the original Clone Wars and I'm looking forward to this release as well. At least it's a significant change, as opposed to those re-releases in the 1990s of the original trilogy (original, thx, ones with previews of episode 1, etc). You know, you can love something AND like it's remake as well. Remakes can be awesome too (sometimes even superior). Some examples of great remakes:

    Hard to Handle (Otis Redding/Black Crowes)
    Come Together (Beatles/Aerosmith)
    Hurt (Nine Inch Nails/Johnny Cash)
    Twist And Shout (Top Notes/Beatles)
    Time is on my Side (Irma Thomas/Rolling Stones)
    The Man Who Sold the World (David Bowie/Nirvana)
    Mr. Tambourine Man (Bob Dylan/William Shatner) - just kidding :)

    Cape Fear
    Dawn of the Dead

    Oceans 11
    The Thing (I'll argue it is a remake)

    So everyone just relax and reserve judgment until you actually see it. I know how hard that is, especially on the Internets, to not review a movie 8 months before it comes out based on 5 screenshots or something, but let's at least, um... try? If you didn't like the original, then you probably won't like this one. But if you did like Genndy's version and you're already reserving judgment, then right now you're just being close-minded (even if you do wind up disliking it later). Liking both isn't a mortal sin.

  • I rented the Clone War animated series, it was incredible bad. All of the episodes were about the Jedi knights taking on entire armies with no other story lines to them.

    The units sent with the knights would usually all die, except them, than they would just wipe every enemy on sight. But depending on the episode they would stop for a quick drink.

    To me, those series did not match with the movies at all, if the knights were so freaking amazing, how in the heck were they wiped out, except for 2 of them?

    • A jedi knight in Star Wars can be compared to a "Commando" unit in Command and Conquer 3. Yes, a few bullets or any armored vehicle can kill him, but he still is an elite unit that, if unnoticed, can take down an entire base down in seconds.
      Clone Wars was about that: Infiltration, stealth, supremacy. EPIII was about Anakin becoming Darth Vader and that's it. They totally wasted Mace Windu and the other cool Jedi knights that they fought so well during clone wars.
  • by EEBaum ( 520514 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @06:33PM (#19295269) Homepage
    Assuming that wikipedia is correct and this is a continuation of the story from the original clone wars short, it is inevitable that these will be followed by a revisiting of the original Clone Wars cartoons.

    Among the wonders to look forward to:
    • The original Clone Wars cartoons will be redone in CG, as Lucas had originally wanted.
    • Special appearance by Jabba the Hutt, where we discover that he and Obi Wan have done business for some time.
    • Someone will shoot Anakin first, causing him to go aggro and eventually turn to the dark side entirely out of self-defense.
    • All explosions will be accompanied by planar shockwaves.
    • Death scenes of random insignificant characters will be shortened or removed entirely.
    • The final episode will feature a galaxy-wide welcome-to-the-rainforest happy-fest victory party.
    • Qui-Gon's disembodied head will accompany Obi Wan at all times, acting as his personal Jiminy Cricket.
    • DVD Bonus Feature Deleted Scenes of Chewbacca's extended family.
    Can't wait!!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I clicked the link and ended up here: []

    The 'Click here to get a modern browser'-link points to [].

    I was kind of surprised.
  • I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mgabrys_sf ( 951552 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @06:44PM (#19295337) Journal
    Why wouldn't the series act as a bridge between III and IV instead of padding between II and III?

    Is Darth Vader boring?
    • Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)

      by aztektum ( 170569 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @07:48PM (#19295739)
      cuz that would only leave 3 guys with lightsabers and the only thing selling this series anymore is Jedi
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        According to the timelines I've seen, they had to spend years tracking down and killing all the jedi. Some seriously kick-ass battles are possible with Darth Vader hunting down random jedi.
    • Boring enough that we had three movies based on his childhood.

      The coolest thing in Star Wars is the light saber. When did the most light saber action take place? During the clone war when the Jedi lead squads of clones into battle. For an animated action show, this is the best time to set it in.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by gaderael ( 1081429 )
      I think it has to do with the fact that they're in the process of making a video game that is going to bridge III and IV for the next gen consoles. They even say on the website that both LucasArts and Industrial Light and Magic have been working on this game. The Official site is here: []
    • I guess that by Ep III, you're supposed to feel like the empire has already won. You could have scenes of Yoda setting up his house on Degoba or Luke growing up, or maybe Vadar standing on his ship, flying around. You could have it focus on the rebellion, but then there's no Jedi/Sith action, which is probably what people want.

      I do think continuing the clone wars is a bit of a dead horse. Even before the prequels were released, we knew Anakin would turn into Vadar, which I thought made the stories less

  • Why use CG actors? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dircha ( 893383 ) on Sunday May 27, 2007 @07:24PM (#19295587)
    Why use CG actors when you can use cheap, often unknown human actors? Star Wars has never been about the acting; it's about the story and the style.

    Mark Hamill was an unknown, very mediocre actor who only managed to pull off the part in spite of the horrible dialogue because his naivete played in his favor.

    Hayden Christensen, also an unkown, in this case with horrible acting skills, couldn't salvage the atrocious dialogue because he was the villain and came off as a bratty prick, not as someone the audience identified with.

    Further, having CG actors doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't with human actors. Audiences fell in love with the original trilogy because they could identify with the heroes. Star Wars doesn't need flying green yodas and mortal combat robots. In the original trilogy the supernatural Force powers were natural-seeming extensions of ordinary people who rose to the occassion to accomplish extraordinary things because of their humanity, not in spite of it, and not by gimmicks or arcade fighting moves.

    But then any ability to relate to the characters was pretty much ruined by Mr. Lucas explaining away everything in terms of bio-technological elitism.

    The duel between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader in the original trilogy was 10x more compelling and emotional than anything in the new trilogy, eventhough it was slow paced and had no video game acrobatics.

    You know, at this point: screw it. There's nothing redeeming left about the Star Wars universe. Have at it Mr. Lucas. I hope you make millions turning the franchise into a DragonBall Z ripoff. Jedis' hair volume and color should correlate to their Jedi rank and powers. That's really all that's left to do.
  • The problem is how do you get out of the trap that Lucas setup. Plot hole trap that is.

    In the first movies, with only 1 jedi at the time, we get all the stories about how great and powerful they were, but he didn't really have to deliver. Then in the GT cartoons, we see Mace Windu kill thousands of droids at one time. Then they toss in Grievous. So now we are supposed to see the bad-ass jedi being bad-ass....THEN Grievous is supposed to be slightly better, good enough to be able to kill several jedi. A
    • by geekoid ( 135745 )
      Grievouswasn't better then all the jedi,just better then a lot of' turns out that different Jedi have different levels of skill...I know, fucking shocking.
  • Another step in the direction Lucas really want which is to get rid of all the actors. It would be pretty cool in the not so far future that a director could make a movie and then release a developer pack of all the CG objects, scenes, textures, and sound files to the fans and let them make their own movies with them. I think Unreal or Valve is going to beat him to the punch on that though.

    Of course if Lucus did this the first 500 or so that would show up on youTube would be "Die Jar Jar Die" or "How Lu

    • I have looked hard for a Jar Jar model for UT2k4 or similar - to hunt down and kill, obviously. With every weapon available, one after the other. Alas, I have not found one, nor do I possess the skills to make one ...
  • It looks not bad. For a TV show.

    To me the real question, would be any meat in the show? or just another jedi/force show off?

    I personally have seen enough of it. New story set in Star Wars world would be definitely more interesting then reiteration of all the stuff we all read/seen/watched before many times.

    So it's just a question: would Lucas manage to find a good writers for the show? If story line would be good, I frankly can tolerate crappy graphics. But if it would be great graphics and thousa

  • I loved Star Wars--I was 9 when the original hit the theaters. The first 3 (well, the last 3 episodes made into the first 3 movies) were awesome.

    It started to go downhill when Lucas started "Disney-fying" it. At first, it was with Ewoks and then it turned into Jar-Jar. I was putting up with that until the "midichlorians" came. That ruined it for me--why couldn't the force just be "the force?" Midifuckingchlorians? Bugs in the blood? WTF, George? Sorry I digress...

    The computer animated series looks pretty
  • This summer's movies so far don't look good. Right now, we have two #3 sequels, and two zombie movies. One of which is a #3 sequel. Last week we had a #3 sequel. On the "serious" movie side, we have two movies about pregnancy and abortion. Coming up next week is a a #3 sequel to a remake of a heist movie.

    Compared to that, another all-CG Star [Wars|Trek|Gate] TV show sounds good. But that's relative.

    Just wait. In a few months, the MPAA will be screaming again that DVD sales are down because of pi

  • If the series can continue to take some liberties for the sake of humor, as the original Clone Wars did, then I think this series could be fantastic. I love the stylized design of the cartoon and am happy to see it carry forward to CG...

    Also, I am greatly looking forward to seeing Grevious being the ass kicking half-robot we knew he could be from the Clone Wars series, but never lived up to in the movie...

    For those that have not seen all the Clone Wars cartoons, you need to - they were a whole other Star W
  • by BillGatesLoveChild ( 1046184 ) on Monday May 28, 2007 @12:05AM (#19297269) Journal
    George Lucas is one guy who dreamed up and made a few good SciFi movies 30 years ago.

    These days, we've all got ridiculously high-powered PCs, and many people have one or move of 3DSMAX/BLENDER(free)/VUE/POSER/DAZ-STUDIO(free)/CI NEMA4D/LIGHTWAVE/RHINO/MILKSHAPE. There's a lot of old cinematography books scattered all over the Internet too. When they're done, BitTorrent is a damned fast distribution medium.

    These days, anyone can make a science fiction movie. The concept has already been proven by Star Warz Fan Boys who have made their own Star Wars rip offs, on the cheap but with great SFX and decent production quality. Sadly the Fan Boys used Lucas' old material instead of getting an original idea in their head. Lucas' prequels have taught us how *not* to make a movie. Now lets put that to practice.

    Some come on people, get together! We don't need to wait for Lucas to dream up next years line of would-be Christmas presents and cheesy merchandising. Do your own damned movies! Instead of another Star Wars rehash, how about something new? Indy bands can now put out music without signing away to the RIAA cartel. We can do the same.
  • ... if they make Erin Esurance a Jedi Knight. The animation style matches up.
  • OK, Natalie Portman doesn't look hot in this one so I doubt I'll see it. :-p

    Also, haven't we got further in 3D tech today? I mean, with ILM or LucasFilm or whoever's server farm that's backing this project up. Yoda look weird. Others supposedly-humans don't look human nearly as much like the now (in computer tech-age) old Final Fantasy movie. But maybe the intention was to make them resemble cartoon characters more than real actors to avoid the uncanny valley or something.

    Anyway, I personally thought the Cl
  • Anyone have an alternative link? Apparently Ubuntu 6.06 LTS's Firefox w/Flash 7 isn't "a JavaScript enabled modern browser with Flash" in the minds of some people.

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