BBC "Not In Bed With Bill Gates" 335
whoever57 writes "The BBC's head of technology denied rumors that a secret deal with Microsoft was behind the XP-only launch of the BBC's iPlayer. According to Ashley Highfield, the reason that the player only supports Windows XP is that only a small number of Linux visitors have come to the BBC's website. Why he would expect a large number of Linux-based visitors to the site when the media downloads are Windows XP only is not clear. He also thinks that 'Launching a software service to every platform simultaneously would have been launch suicide,' despite the example of many major sites that support Linux (even if this is through the closed-source flash player)."
Lame reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Lame reason. (Score:5, Funny)
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<sarcasm>
I mean, imagine... releasing content on the internet... Without DRM. It would be a catastrophy! It'd lead to chaos, anarchy, pigs flying, snowballs having a chance!
</sarcasm>
Re:Lame reason. (Score:4, Informative)
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Because Bill came by with a wad of cash. Like Steve says, the market has spoken.
The man is clearly a liar.
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The demographic on
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Development costs (Score:2)
Most likely they went with what some consultant said, to get up and running as quickly as possible with the minimum in costs.
Now, what would it take to come up with something in Linux that can read this data? Is it even remotely possible?
Re:Lame reason. (Score:4, Interesting)
Now I imagine that relates to visitors to the rather useless BBC front page, using the same info as used to compile the blog post at http://www.currybet.net/articles/user_agents/2.php> which claims that only 0.41& of BBC visitors use Linux.
I'm a regular visitor to various bits of the BBC web site and I regularly come across other Linux users and just about the one thing we have in common is that we very rarely visit the front page - like most experienced computer users we go straight to sub-site we want.
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But we can all go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/ [bbc.co.uk] and bump that number to 50%
Re:Lame reason. (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, I've browsed the BBC websites (I don't know that I've ever been to the front page) via Mac OS X, Mac OS 9, various Linux flavours, FreeBSD, PalmOS, and even Windows Mobile. I don't think I've been there once via a Windows-based browser (except maybe some of the news articles).
It would be extremely interesting to see how his metrics are being compiled.
Re:Lame reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
Making the videos only work in Windows specific media players is more effort than using a common freely available codec.
At an extreme, having a single page with links to the videos in mpeg format would have taken one person a day to set up.
They may have their reasons, but technically the simplest solution is often... the simplest one.
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You have this in reverse. Making the videos only work in Windows specific media players is more effort than using a common freely available codec....
You are both right and wrong. If *I* develop a web page, I purchase and use tools that are platform and browser agnostic. Then again, I work for a company I co-own. So for me, it would be more difficult to make a platform or browser specific video feed/system or website (well, perhaps not website... IE is still a nightmare to code any decent site to, since how it handles things varies per version and occassionally per update).
If I work for Company A, I'm stuck using the tools my IT Department licensed f
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The BBC is a semi-independent government-funded agency, it does not have a "bottom line". It is a not-for-profit corporation.
Any organisation that complains about US$7 BILLION government funding being too small, clearly has big problems.
Definitely a screwup somewhere (Score:3, Insightful)
400-600 people on Linux use bbc.co.uk (in the UK)? I don't think so...
Someone needs to recheck their server logs.
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It would be interesting to do a survey of Linux users to see how many regularly use bbc.co.uk. I suspect the figure would be well up in the hundreds of thousands. 400-600 is just beyond belief.
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Re:Definitely a screwup somewhere (Score:5, Funny)
However they are a very vocal minority and because it's somewhat cool to be a linux guy
some people claim that they run linux when infact they don't.
I personally run Windows Vista Home Basic but I pretend to be a linux expert on various internet forums.
Linux's "popularity" is really just a scam to fool newbies into thinking that people actually run linux.
Then the newbies try actually installing linux and fail miserably,
you must really be a kernel hacker to install it.
Frustrated newbies then ask questions on the various forums and on irc and everybody answers to them in complete gibberish. We all get a good laugh that way (expect the noobs, they try the bogus solutions and fail once again).
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http://support.bbc.co.uk/support/ [bbc.co.uk]
Miscounting (Score:2, Interesting)
BBC's charter (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:BBC's charter (Score:5, Insightful)
They're also required to account for their spending and for keeping costs down. If they proposed a completely open player and it was a significant amount of money more than the Microsoft one then they would have to justify why they went with the costly option.
Granted I've not worked in a non-profit organisation, but even so, I think that justifying a larger spend on something that affects less than 0.004% of visitors is going to be a very tough sell for anyone.
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Chicken and egg (Score:2, Insightful)
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From TFA:
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A wise designer once told me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Cuz once the bridge is up, hundreds more who couldn't swim the distance will want to cross.
Not in bed with. (Score:2)
Stats not about iPlayer (Score:4, Informative)
It should be clarified that he was talking about the root bbc.co.uk site NOT the iPlayer site, so it is clearer why the would expect Linux users to visit the site.
Re:Stats not about iPlayer (Score:4, Insightful)
Did even the submitter read the article? (Score:5, Informative)
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Based on Kontiki so no Linux version (Score:4, Informative)
iPlayer is based on Kontiki (owned by Verisign). Windows only, unless you're prepared to jump through virtual hoops, AFAIK. Reading through the user agreement: it's targeting UK-based computer users. Hmmm. Shall we build a Windows, Mac or Linux player? No-brainer, really, when the P2P distribution layer is Windows only.
Re:Based on Kontiki so no Linux version (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally you shouldn't pick your technology (programming language, toolkit, etc.) and then pick your audience based on what it supports. Instead, you should write out a list of requirements, and then pick the technology that satisfies all those needs. In this case, if one of the requirements was: "Must be available to all fee-paying persons with computer access (i.e.: must be platform agnostic)" then an OS-specific technology would never have been chosen in the first place.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this is a result of mis-management (e.g. not thinking very hard about requirements) rather than corruption (e.g. collusion with software companies), but in any case I question their planning process.
(And to those who may respond that "must support DRM" was one of the requirements in the initial design, and could only be satisfied using Windows-only software, I would then say that placing content protection above equal treatment of fee-paying users was, again, a poor design decision for an organization like the BBC.)
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Why not design for open in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, it was a really stupid move and managed to get everybody from the smallest Linux hacker to the UK government commenting in public about the policy.
Creating an open "player" for all platforms would have taken more resources at first, but from that point on all future platforms would be supported by the people who use the platform.
Sadly, the Beeb needs closed source to implement the no-save and timed delete features forced on them by others.
Love the summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in bed together, but they LOVE the same SPA! (Score:2)
Re:Not in bed together, but they LOVE the same SPA (Score:2)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/schedules/frequencies/index.shtml [bbc.co.uk]
Re:Not in bed together, but they LOVE the same SPA (Score:2)
There's a simple reason for that.
They don't have an IT department any more. It was outsourced some time ago - shortly before it became apparent that the Internet was likely to become if not the future of media distribution, then at least very significant.
The development process seems to have been "throw something cheap and cheerful together at the last minute". It had to include DRM because pr
oh god, not this again... (Score:5, Informative)
The main reason why iPlayer uses Windows DRM is because the companies who produce content for the BBC didn't want their shows streamed without some kind of rights management, because, god forbid, it should end up on bit torrent. The cause of this is most likely ignorance on their part, because, as we all know, DRM stops piracy, saves lives, cures cancar and ends world famine.
The core code behind iPlayer is completely cross-browser, having worked on some of it, I know that it conforms to BBC New Media guidelines, which specifically state that all HTML, JavaScript, etc must be compatible with all major browsers (we even tested major elements of it in Firefox, and quite a few of the developers worked on Mac/Linux boxes)
There has always been a plan for a Mac/Linux version of iPlayer, but the current DRM requirements being imposed on the iPlayer Core team make it somewhat difficult for them to actually get working on it
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When non-Windows players (Mac and Linux) don't have to pay a license fee and be excluded from services. Also, the worry is not about the Beeb management, but the iPlayer team many of whose senior figures are ex-Microsoft employees.
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That would be a fair argument, except that a large proportion of contents is produced by the BBC at the expense of licence payers, who should be able to access the information they are paying for regardless of operating system. In essence, one could argue that as a licence payer it'
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Assumed error in parent story... (Score:2)
It is clear (Score:2)
He's not talking about media downloads, but the entire bbc.co.uk site which, according to Google, is about 3,310,000 pages.
From the article:
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They are, however, locking out about 855,000 Mac users. Not that, compared to ~16M Win users, that's extremely much, but it's not exactly insignificant, either. Not if your standard is to bring your program to everyone, which does fit the BBC.
Open Source Alternative? (Score:2)
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Exactly what those reasons are, I couldn't tell you, but I suspect it's a combination of a lack of technical understanding by the people who make the decisions and the perceived (and to a certain extent proved) threat from filesharing.
Summary Inflamatory as usual (Score:2)
Highfield's (the chief of tech) argument is pretty solid actually. The BBC site (bbc.co.uk, not the media download area) has 17 million monthly visitors, out of which 600 use Linux.
It does make perfect sense to please the 99% of the users first and then cater to the specific needs of the other 1%.
gnash plays media (Score:2)
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Yes, the 400-600 figure is absurdly low. I based my original post on the assumption that no one is lying or massaging the stats to prove a point...
Submitter is either confused or an out right liar. (Score:2)
This is disingenuous and does not refute the fact that 94% of the visitors to the BBC site were using Windows before the iPlayer rollo
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Let me put it in a way that your little mind can grasp: If it cost 1 million to implement iPlayer for each platform, then it would cost:
And, companies often do not do what 6% of their shareholders. I think you have forgotten that shareholders vote o
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No, Linux users are choosing to use Linux. Using Linux comes with some cost to the individual using it. Don't like, don't use Linux. Don't sit there and whine that you are not getting what you want and expect everyone to bend over backwards for you. Don't act like you are 20000 times more important than you really are.
It's a licese thing (Score:2)
They have to at least pretend to make it difficult to 'hack' the player and capture the content.
If they release a Windows player and it gets hacked, no-one cares (yet another Windows hack, film at 11).
If they release a Linux player and it gets hacked they'll be roasted for loosing the content (how dumb are you? releasing a player on a platform where users can recompile the kernel to defeat your DRM?!?!).
it just might be true (Score:2)
The BBC is more than media downloads. It is the prime news site in the U.K. If the BBC isn't seeing many Linux users, it could be because there aren't many Linux users.
Wal-Mart made the same claim (Score:2)
Until it came out they had hired a former MS exec.
I think it was funny that they pooh-poohed a demonstration by a dozen people. Any number of people come out to protest a technology choice should be an eye-opener. One of the first things I learned working for public radio was that you didn't piss off opera fans. There weren't very many of them, but they were vocal and passionate. Much like Linux users. The Beeb should have more class.
It still surprises me to find IE only web sites from big companie
Guys, what did you expect? (Score:4, Interesting)
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The more amusing of two evils (Score:2, Insightful)
I Hate Rock n Roll (Score:2)
I love it when they're pissin' on me
And I love MTV
I love it when they're shittin' on me
Oh, come on... (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure they had a web site before they put up these media downloads, and I suspect that they probably looked at those stats before deciding that their visitors are mostly running Windows.
400 to 600 Linux users? (Score:2, Interesting)
There must more than 600, because a "Latest BBC Headlines" bookmark comes "preinstalled" with Firefox.
(At least with the ones I've seen)
Why not just use an open codec? (Score:2)
Stick it behind a login page (with only people who have TV licenses able to get access).
Bill Gates (Score:2)
Hello? Mac sales outranking pc in universities? (Score:2)
and guess what, mac runs a posix interface. It's not that hard to make the mac version linux friendly.
In other words, this is a cop-out at best, and more likely his claims are an outright lie.
However, never attribute to malice or
I suggest he goes to youtube (Score:2)
The point to this long story, why aren'
plus gnash (Score:2)
Seriously speaking (Score:2)
HOWEVER, Mac users are a significant percentage. There are statistics that claim 16% for notebooks, and I've got my own stats that don't disagree (based on mac addresses). There's also an impression that Mac users are more willing to pay more for most things.
So the stuff we make definitely has to work with Macs. Does the BBC's "Windows XP" only stuff work on Macs running MacOS? Without too much hoop-jumping.
BTW, I've even seen a
What's with the iName, anyway? (Score:2, Funny)
Nation shall speak peace unto nation (Score:3, Informative)
launching a cross platform service .. (Score:2)
Why is it I have no problem viewing media on other sites except the BBC, how is it Youtube has no problem launching a cross platform service. What possible technical difficulties are there in running streaming video, none
Is that right? (Score:2)
Given the constraints of DRM I would have (Score:2)
I don't like windows. I'm headed towards linux (most of my apps are now OS agnostic except everquest).
But as a project manager, it would be insane to delay delivery to 95% (they claim 99%) of my customers for several months. It is probably not even profitable to try to service 1% of the customers but as a gov
Interview on Groklaw (Score:4, Interesting)
Mark Taylor of the UK Open Source Consortium makes the point that the BBC has spent 100 million pounds on the iPlayer project. They're also going broke and will have to sell their flagship London headquarters building for - guess how much?
So, this project has already beggared the BBC. Am I too paranoid in seeing this as the first step in yet another Microsoft 'embrace and extend' play? They've had ambitions to own broadcast TV for ages. If they can prove their DRM works for a major broadcaster over the net, next step will be to DRM the broadcast TV. After that, if your TV doesn't have Windows Inside, you'll be shit out of luck.
5 pounds per licence holder (Score:3, Interesting)
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This sounds like racketeering, to me.
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Yet I have only Apple Macs in my house.
I will gladly go to court and explain yes, I have a computer.
But owing to the BBC's own decisions I am not able to use their service on it.
Re:Of course it was (Score:5, Interesting)
If MS and the BBC were in cahoots, don't you think there would be a Vista version? Microsoft doesn't want you buying XP any more.
Re:1% of user base (Score:5, Informative)
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For something where the wheel has to be re-invented that's true, but this is a video site. There are dozens of examples of cross platform sites that do video, and there are several tools that are readily available to make it happen easy. Unless you're d
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Going multiplatform and implementing standards means coding for the 100% of the prospective clients instead of the 90% or less owned by microsoft, and it's not 2x the cost of a windows only solution. I'd say the windows only solution will end up costing more just to keep up with whatever MS execs think about their new versions of the framework and the OS.
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It is 10 AM ET. There have been 68 replies to the lead story on Slashdot. What does that tell you about Linux in the UK?
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Errr. Surely that day arrived when your TV set came with buttons to select other channels? Just don't watch it. I can't imagine what you would prefer to watch given the quality of the competition, but nobody's forcing you.
TWW
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The idea behind the mandatory fee is to keep the stations unbiased by corporate interest and market trends. It does kind of fulfill those goals, the former more than the latter. I don't think it's a bad concept per se, but it is quite anno
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That also doesn't explain why no osx client... 5% of 70 million is 3.5 million users they've pissed off.
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All the computers run Linux, and people are always reading the news from them.
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"We have 17.1 million users of bbc.co.uk in the UK and, as far as our server logs can make out, 5 per cent of those [use Macs] and around 400 to 600 are Linux users"
Wasn't aware there was a University of Arizona in the UK...
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I look forward to you campaigning to get the BBC to broadcast all its DAB channels on analog radio, as they're not fufilling their statutory duty to serve the whole UK population blah blah blah...
The fact is that you CHOOSE to use a minority platform. That means you're not going to be first in the queue when it comes to getting new services from the BBC. You'll get them eventually, unless the marginal cost of providing them is too high - just as
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Your reply doesn't counter my view at all - it supports it.
The BBC should not be in the business of providing players, it should pick standards that allow others to build players. That is the whole point of the argument. It's not about Linux (is there an echo in here?)
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