University Bows to RIAAs Demands for Student Names 271
jcgam69 writes "Hours after a federal court judge ordered Oklahoma State University to show cause why it shouldn't be held in contempt for failing to respond to an RIAA subpoena, attorneys for the school e-mailed a list of students' names to the RIAA's attorneys. But now that the RIAA has what it wanted, the group is unsure about how to go about sending out its pre-litigation settlement letters. Some of the students are represented by an attorney, meaning that the RIAA is barred from contacting them directly."
The bully's fear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The bully's fear (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, they are a big stupid bully (Score:3, Insightful)
and they are violating multiple laws [slashdot.org]. We shall see how this comes out for the 11 students, and society will make even better laws to stop this kind of harassment. The recording industry is simply wrong and people know it.
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Re:The bully's fear (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Informative)
http://moneyline.cq.com/pml/home.do [cq.com]
http://opensecrets.org/ [opensecrets.org]
Please check your candidates this time.
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Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Informative)
On another note, what the University did here might be illegal too. They are giving probably without a court order, a LIST of students' names to a third party. The RIAA is a PRIVATE organization, not a government or public benefactor and a judge can't order something that is against the law (that's what the RIAA is trying to force though). I know where I work (University) that would be against New York State, HIPAA and internal policy and if somebody in my group were to be sued, I would take it all the way to supreme court before I release anything.
Re:The bully's fear (Score:4, Informative)
From the Summary: (emphasis mine)
In case you are unfamiliar with the definition of a subpoena, it means "a court order". Reference a dictionary or even Wikipedia.
The RIAA managed to convince one judge that they were wronged by someone on the university's network. That judge ordered the university to hand over the list so they could "identify" the specific individuals. They initially refused. When the judge said "Explain to me why you think you shouldn't have to comply with the court order," the university said "Oops. sorry. our bad. here you go."
Whether you agree with the reasoning behind any of the events, or even the right/wrongness of them, that truly is a summary of what had happened.
And, somewhat ironically, my captcha (since I don't stay logged in to SlashDot) is "freedom".
RTFS (Score:3, Informative)
"failing to respond to an RIAA subpoena"
see that last word in the quote above?
that is a court order, of a type that can be challenged
see the summary
"Hours after a federal court judge ordered Oklahoma State University to show cause"
see, 'cause' would be the challenge. The judge demanded a challenge or submission to the request.
the university submitted a response to a cort order, so the entire second half of your comment is moot.
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Layne
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The bully's fear (Score:4, Informative)
Depends, they have the right to due process. They have the right of a fair trial.
These people distributed copyrighted material that they had no right nor authorization to distribute. Representatives of the copyright holders found out about it, and are suing. Unless the representatives found out about it in an illegal way (read: non-admissible in court), they are fully within their rights to sue.
These people are SUSPECTED of these actions. It is not clear that there is sufficient proof or any viable proof at all.
But let us not forget that that there is evidence that the people being sued have broken the law and that the plaintiffs are completely within their rights to sue, and to use the facilities granted to them by law (i.e. warrants and subpoenas).
Yes, and lets look at that evidence. It is a witch hunt.
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The laws may be bad. The courts may be broken. The judges may be corrupt. The juries may be ignorant and stupid. The plaintiff may be abusing the system and bullying. The lawyers may be . . . lawyers.
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No, one of the important aspects of a "Witch Hunt" is that once one is accused, there is very little hope of being found not guilty. The power of prosecution combined with "facts" which are completely
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Informative)
In fact, with the exception of one high-profile slam-dunk case for the RIAA with a judgment of a quarter million dollars for the guilty music pirate, they have dropped every single other case that actually gets beyond a settlement phase into the bonafide legal system. And even then they drop the cases after shaking them down with subpoenas and discovery and other abuses of process with the hopes to bankrupt them and teach them a lesson.
RIAA shouldn't have the power to demand a list of students with certain IP addresses for what they think is happening any more than I have the right to demand the name of the person using the IP address who I suspect was cheating in my FPS server. The POLICE and other law enforcement are the ones who should have the power to do that, with the burden of criminal just cause to obtain a warrant.
If it's really a matter of law, why not just file a complaint with law ENFORCEMENT? I'll answer: to game the system because they know once casual sharing actually gets tested and appealed upwards then so very many of the copyright and DMCA clauses are in trouble under judicial review.
Re:The bully's fear (Score:5, Informative)
These people distributed copyrighted material that they had no right nor authorization to distribute.
There have been numerous examples of the MAFIAA targetting the wrong people and even worse, the standard level of evidence they routinely bring to court has been laughably vague. They don't verify that the material being distributed is their material, they just go by keywords in filenames, some of them so general as to be meaningless.
You've made one hell of a leap of logic there and you should be ashamed of yourself for not applying some critical thinking beforehand.
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It isn't at all the fault of the people who actually broke the law?
You're forgetting that the *AA hasn't exactly been scrupulous about limiting it's scattershot lawsuits to those who actually broke the law-- that's what makes them bullies. (They're just the bully that never gets in trouble because their Uncle Joe is the principal.) And when they can, they intentionally make it so that it's both easier and cheaper to settle even if you are innocent. They don't care if you did anything illegal or not, just so long as they get your money.
Sure, there are people that would
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This would be like you coming home, and finding that someone keyed your car. There aren't any footprints nearby in the muddy ground, but a particular tire tread swerves within a few inches of you
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Re:The bully's attitude - they're pirates too! (Score:2, Interesting)
Artists and composers alike need to remember that the initials stand for the "RECORDING INDUSTRY of America," not the "Recording ARTISTS of America!"
Ask any artist who has been bilked out of millions that were made on their FIRST recording... especially when their SECOND one didn't do so well... notice how well the RIAA "protects" those ar
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Re:The bully's fear? Bollocks. (Score:5, Interesting)
Unless you're in Canada and camming (Score:4, Insightful)
IMHO movie cammers are idiots anyhow, but I think that our prison and justice system could be put to better use, and I'd rather not be arrested myself because somebody decided to nab me because my digital camera (which I tend to keep with me at most times) can do (crappy) video and some theatre thug decided it's close enough...
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And also those 'theatre thugs' still have to proof you actually filmed (part of) the performance/movie. I hope the Canadian courts still believe that you are innocent until proven guilty. And I hope that'll never get reversed.
Re:The bully's fear? Bollocks. (Score:4, Interesting)
GM makes one, admittedly average, car and it cost them $1,000,000 to make it. They then duplicate the car by the hundreds of thousands, and sell them for $2000 each. The problem is, most people only want the doors or the wheels which are the only appealing part of the car, and millions of people in the world have the ability to exactly copy the wheels and doors, even the entire car if they want, for $50, using similar technology to what GM uses to copy the original car. So, GM is upset by that and starts suing people that copied the car, even though nothing was actually stolen from GM.
How'd I do?
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The error in this assumption, which the MPAA suffers from as well, is that all other things being equal, a pirate likely would not have payed for the copyrighted work *anyway*, even if the work was not available to 'steal'! That's what is ridiculous about the whole affair.
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"They see it as theft because pirates are depriving them of money that would otherwise..."
I assure you they are lawyers, and businessmen, or at least that they frequently talk to such. They know perfectly well that it's not theft, and that their "lost sales" figures are insanely hyperbolic.
I have long since stopped giving the RIAA the benefit of the doubt -- attributing their tactics to innocent ignorance. They are trying to subvert our justice system to hold
Re:The bully's fear? Bollocks. (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, their whole modus operandi right now relies on the fact that civil cases don't require quite as much "beyond reasonable doubt" proof as criminal cases do. Then, of course, there is the whole "punish the entire Internet" because some clown just HAS to have the latest Britney crap. No, the Recording Industry Ass. of America has nobody to blame but themselves for the way the general public see them and, by association, their members.
Good (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
What I'm curious about, is how does an RIAA lawsuit affect a student's ability to pursue their education ? Is the cartel destroying someone's future career over a few hundred overplayed pop songs ? What does that say about the future of the nation ? We all agree that piracy is a crime, but does the punishment fit ?
Corporate America's obsession with instant profits will inevitably have a deleterious effect on tomorrow's economy. It's bad enough that students get pelted with dozens of credit cards and start their life in the red, now we're trying to tack on another few thousand dollars in RIAA settlements. The people who actually wind up paying for this are you and me. We pay when professionals increase their hourly rates, when basic food staples jump in price, heck we're paying it right now with the time spent debating these vengeful issues. Inflation is not an ethereal process that happens on a spreadsheet. The more we screw each other over, the stronger the elastic bounce-back to recover what was ours.
Greed begets greed.
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Piracy is taking something, making tons of copies, and selling them... black marketing, etc...
People taking songs and sharing them, while violating copyright, isn't piracy.
These are the same types of people, who in the 70s and 80s recorded their music off the radio onto cassette and dubbed them.
If I recall correctly, Sony had one of the better portable dubbing boom-boxes, that led to mass audio cassette copying...
What do you think happens? Of course it's wrong! (Score:2)
What I'm curious about, is how does an RIAA lawsuit affect a student's ability to pursue their education ? Is the cartel destroying someone's future career over a few hundred overplayed pop songs ? What does that say about the future of the nation ? We all agree that piracy is a crime, but does the punishment fit ?
The least inconvenience is give up your life savings. That leaves students with two bad options, go into debt or quit school. Students who fight risk losses that would sap anyone's desire to
Hmm.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hmm.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would hate for a list of every dirty website I went to in open court only to be deemed innocent in the end.
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I think the one thaing that would compel me would be a judge saying "do it or be cited for contempt". Like the Who song the RIAA label holds copyright to says, the RIAA has "a gun that fires cops".
That said, the university should fire its legal team and hire a competent one. Its students should find a more reputable university. Columbia WAS reputable, but its reputation is now that of a coward.
It seems since 9-11 cowardsce
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and unless you visiting all those dirty websites was somehow illegal, the university would be under no obligation to divulge any of that information. a legal subpoena would have to be base
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Y'know ... I'm not sure I would have waited until the threat of contempt arose. It'd give me a bit more leeway in my response.
I'm thinking that the university should not have emailed the student records, but printed them. And all the IP logs. All of them. And sent that print-out via registered mail or courier or something (something that needs a signature). It'd weigh 40 or 50 pounds, I'm sure. Thousands of pages of paper. (Even better if you can get it all out via dot-matrix feed paper - one nice l
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Also, universities ought to be complying with the law and I was pretty sure that, in a couple of cases, it had been demonstrated that names did not have to be handed over by ISPs...
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However, if you read the article, you'd see that the RIAA still can't contact _any_ of the students, because they don't know which ones have an attorney, and they're not allowed to contact those who have an attorney. Not being an attorney, I don't know what use having the names actually does the RIAA in this state. (they could try dragging the names through the mud, but then th
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O.S.U.
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So according to you, Universities should hand over lists of their students to anyone on demand? How about banks - I'd like to know how much is in your account. If you have too much money then you must have earned it illegally. Hey maybe I should have a look at your medical records too while I'm at it. Our studies show a positive correlation between piracy and type
Re:Hmm.. (Score:4, Insightful)
How about to court orders? Like, you know, in this case.
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it is assumed that the University should help protect students from the consequences of their (potentially) illegal actions
So according to you, Universities should hand over lists of their students to anyone on demand? How about banks - I'd like to know how much is in your account. If you have too much money then you must have earned it illegally. Hey maybe I should have a look at your medical records too while I'm at it. Our studies show a positive correlation between piracy and type 2 diabetes...
This is not "anyone on demand." To reverse your straw man, should businesses be allowed to break all the laws they want?
There was a legal request for these names, under enforcement by the court, and the University was still refusing. The University should not break the law to protect the accused. If there was a legal request made for my bank account information or medical records, I would expect the bank or medical officials to release my information. Why should they break the law to protect me? Corpora
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Not very many people would try to fake someone else's identity to deposit $10,000 (maybe a lot more would to withdraw $10,000). However, faking an IP and/or MAC address to download infringing music is something that some students might do (those that know how). How many schools are capable of setting up such a secure LAN infrastructure that they can be sure no student can take over another student's IP/MAC when the other shuts their computer off? Of course it is doable, and I might expect it at places li
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Due process isn't just a protection for the (potentially) guilty. It's also protection for the rest of us.
makes sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:makes sense (Score:4, Insightful)
I hope that the student's lawyer is better than good.
That said, there is little outside the Terms of Service an ISP can do to stop each individual from acting as a common carrier. If you open your WiFi for all to use, current trends are to hold you responsible for how the Internet is used. Emphasis is put on filtering/regulation rather than individual's use of the services.
I was going to think of a car analogy, but water is a better likeness here. If you get your water from the city, and let your neighbors use it, are you responsible for them watering their lawns outside of prescribed watering hours? The basic legal interpretation of what Internet access is, is being treated the wrong way, or thought of in the wrong way.
Access to weapons does not make you a killer. Access to P2P sites does not make you a copyright thief. Selling guns that get used in bank robberies or murders don't make the manufacturer guilty of said crimes.
If all students were on WiFi connections, each infringement issue would involve possibly hundreds of students. While that sounds like I'm supporting wild flouting of the law, it's not. I simply do not support the way the law has been used to harass and bludgeon citizens for nothing more substantial than supporting the failed and woefully unrepentant business model of greedy bastards who mistreat customers and clients alike.
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In cases where a plaintiff is suing a "John Doe" identified by IP address and time, then I agree that the university needs to provide that identification ... if it is reliable (and I believe in a great many schools it is not reliable because IP and MAC spoofing is easy if the school uses typical LAN equipment). However, the RIAA tactic has been to merely contact students with these settlement letters demanding amounts of money the students cannot afford, and refusing to discuss issues like mis-identificati
The attorney is Marilyn Barringer-Thompson (Score:5, Interesting)
i dont understand why... (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't see what use that information is to the University, aside from handing it over to RIAA lawyers to screw over the very students who pay to go to that university.
you can't hand over evidence you don't have.
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Tell that to whichever torrent tracking website was (within the past few months) told that although they didn't store visitor logs on disk then they were still in memory at some point and so they had to hand over lists of IPs of visitors.
You'd think it was that simple, but the law tends not to allow it as it means anyone could 'play innocent' by having a 'routine' of wiping details every X days, even if they're doing it purely to cover illegal activity.
Re:i dont understand why... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, if the university had a policy of not keeping logs, their students would be safe up to the point when the RIAA got a court order to force them to start logging. Then the university could simply say to their students "we have been forced to start logging: stop your filesharing now, because the RIAA are watching".
The reason that universities don't do this is that they want logs for their own purposes, for example to track down infected machines, or people posting rude messages about the vice-chancellor.
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If a University has always been keeping logs but then suspects they might be in the next batch of RIAA hits then I suspect there would be major questions if they started wiping log files regularly now. Even if it wasn't directly admissible as evidence, the RIAA would bring it up as something that supported their case (only to be struck from the record, but still left in the human conscious as it isn't as e
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Why don't you let your social security number loose?
-mcgrew [slashdot.org]
modded -1, pedant
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Apparently, universities, ISPs, and whoever else *must* store all the communications so the state can check for all these eeeeeeevil terrorists...
And if a university refuses to do so, well, obviously they'd be searched by the army, er, police. Full body armor, drawn weapons, seizure of all electronic equipment.
No. I'm not joking. Unfortunately.
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why not just wipe the students internet usage records every week or so?
Because the university keeps the logs for its own reasons and its own legal protection. It may come as a surprise to you, but the university network policies tend not to be driven by the need to ensure student anonymity while file-sharing music. They are used for other, academic, uses.
I don't understand why universities dont just 'loose' these records.
I heard of a place that did this once. The records were running wild all over the hallways for days before they managed to round them all up again.
MAC spoofing (Score:3, Informative)
And no one told them that MAC addresses can be faked? What the know is that their equipment is getting ethernet frames with the expected MAC address once the student has logged in.
I've done such faking several times. I even have a couple computers that regularly run with a faked MAC address (for development testing purposes at work, using Intel ethernet chips). All someone needs to do is figure out a working MAC address of some other student that regularly turns off their computer, ping it every now and
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would you believe me if I told you that I am an English teacher.
Yikes!
I, of all people, should have caught that one.
if my university handed over my private information, I would have been quite upset. but then again, I used the schools computer lab for most of my content downloading, using the 'student1' login and password, that seems to work on nearly every school network I've ever used. so they had nothing on me!
if it is illegal to wipe these records, whats next? will it b
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I hope you aren't teaching 3rd graders how to spell. But if you are, make sure they learn the difference between 'then' and 'than'. It took me 23 years to get that one straight.
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The university could, as a matter of policy, not keep track of IP-to-student mappings. As soon as an IP address is released, forget it was ever assigned, that kind of thing. They could... but they'd be fools if they did.
What happens if someone uses their network connection to hack other university systems? The logs might show the IP from
They mailed a list of names... (Score:2, Insightful)
University Bows to Judge Order (Score:5, Insightful)
Wheter the judges order was ok in the first place is a diffrent story.
No, (Score:2)
University caves to illegal demands [slashdot.org] is a better headline.
IT'S A TRAP (Score:5, Insightful)
I see Xerxes vs 300 Spartans in a legal sense here, so long as the defense does not leave the goat path to open up their backs they will do well.
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You know I'll do it, too.
-mcgrew
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(and that was just plain strange in a mind bending way)
What happens when the RIAA goes after the Pentagon (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What happens when the RIAA goes after the Penta (Score:2)
It might be rather harder for the RIAA to get sympathetic legislation passed if they make a habit of that kind of thing.
Re:What happens when the RIAA goes after the Penta (Score:2, Insightful)
Like terrorists, they prefer "soft targets".
Personal Opinion Follows (Score:3, Interesting)
Now - the opinion part. I do hope they persist in this tactic. I recently have been turning to indie music in various forms and ya know what - found some *really* good material! Stuff I am happy to throw out a few $ to the artist, especially if they are getting a large cut of the money. And when I say really good - I mean excellent. Outstanding. Prime stuff. I haven't turned on my radio in vehicle or home since I started.
So - RIAA - keep it up. Indie music is my new crack - and their tactics are only ensuring a greater supply chain to me!
2 options... (Score:2)
Simple.
Alma Mater (Score:3, Funny)
D'oh!
Cowed to court order, We'll curse your name;
Oklahoma State, We hold you to blame.
RIAA will find us-and we'll be sued.
Thanks to our Alma Mater, O...S...U.
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privacy going forward at OSU (Score:2)
Nothing good can come of this (Score:2)
The RIAA Got What It Deserved (Score:2)
Have hopefully shot themselves in the foot this time, they'll get no further in this suit. Especially given the judge's outrageous behav
How is this possible? (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re: Marketing Music (Score:2)
Now, people are deciding to change marketing strategies. The marketing organization is upset.
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The religious symbol was a very old cross inside of a very old church on campus (the school is owned by the state, so it is technically a public building--a church, though, nonetheless).
The "controversal event" was a sex worker's art show (second year running, I believe).
Also important for context is understanding that the town of Williamsburg is very conservative.
I'm not saying this to say that the president's removal was necissarily right or wrong, just to show that the issue is a bit more
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I don't see the reason for the first to be preferred over the second. The place was a church on campus and had a cross. This isn't the government defending a religion. It's simply that no Muslim group asked for a mosque to be built on campus, or a Jewish group asked for a synagogue on campus, or a Shintoist group for a shrine on campus, or...
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I hurts me deep inside to think that part of my music-tax would go to "artists" such as britney spears.
Besides, what makes you think that just because you CAN copy something for free, it should be made legal? I'm pretty sure I can beat you up for free, so should I be allowed to? I'm also pretty sure I can steal a car, should it therefore be legal?
Information doesn't want to be free. Information isn't a living creature; it doesn't WANT anything. PEOPLE
Re:The real tragedy... I no longer listen to music (Score:2)
I'm gonna try to reason why the parents argument is flawed.
If I read it correctly, v(*_*)vvvv is frustrated by the lack of innovation and is encouraging legislation to "fix" what he sees as a problem. He has to "pay" to make a digital copy which is a task which has a variable cost of zero.
First problem... Business 101. Cost of Goods Sold = Fixed Cost + Variable Cost. Saying that it is free to make digital copies of songs ignores the efforts to create (a) the song and (b) the network that copies the s
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This is only required when the attorney making the contact knows the party is represented. It's unclear if they have to know who is represented and by whom. But they know of at least one attorney involved, so what they could do is sent all the contacts there. I know from a case a relative of mine was involved in, if an attorney receives such communication for a party they do not represent, they are required to communicate back that they do not represent that party, with penalties if they fail to do that.