Laser Pointers Classed as Weapons in Australia

An anonymous reader was the first to point to an article in the Sydney Morning Herald which says that New South Wales (of which Sydney is the capital) will prohibit the possession of certain types of laser pointers, defining them as weapons, and make it an offense to carry any laser pointer "without a lawful reason." (Similar coverage at news.com.au) Western Australia apparently beat NSW to the punch, and the federal government of Australia announced earlier this month it will treat laser pointers much like firearms, which, in Australia, is really saying something. The restrictions come as a reaction to incidents (not confined to Australia) in which the lasers were trained on planes, distracting pilots.

It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[_merlin]

They aren't banning class 1 laser pointers (won't cause eye damage) or class 2 laser pointers (your natural blink reflex should be sufficient to protect you from eye damage). They're only banning high powered class 3 and 4 laser pointers (may cause eye damage and need to use eye protection). Most laser pointers are class 2. To be honest, I think this is a good thing. The less idiots with potentially dangerous lasers, the better. A class 2 laser is good enough for most people, and if you really need a bigger one (i.e. not just to compensate for your small breasts/penis), you can get a permit.

Re:

[Chandon Seldon]

Sure. Let's outlaw arc welders too. They can blind people. And screwdrivers, because you could stab someone. And metal forks, because you might try to use them to get stuff out of the toaster and electrocute yourself.

Or maybe some tools are dangerous, but everyone needs to accept that it's not the role of government to protect people from every little danger.

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[marcushnk]

No offense mate, but that is such a classic American response... wouldn't be a yank you ya?

You need a lic for anything larger than an air rifle over here... and you can't just carry one of them around either...

We like it that way.

Re:

[syousef]

It's a goddamn laser pointer, not a fucking rifle. Classifying it as a weapon is to say the least an extreme thing. You could do as much damage blinding pilots with a large searchlight, and if you're trying to blind pilots it isn't like you're going to give a shit that your laser has been classified as a weapon.

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[G-funk]

Erm, no, we don't. Speak for yourself buddy. An unarmed population is an oppressed population.

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[Digestromath]

No, I'm actually a Canadian. I also realise that a requiring a license for something doesn't stop it from being used illegally

What is this all for may I ask? A knee jerk reaction to a vague, potential threat? Because of a "potential to cause mass murder"? How many serial laser pointer killers have there been? In Australia? In the world?

5000$ fines for possesion of non prohibited laser by a unlicensed individual. A possible 14 years in prison for a prohibited laser.

You potentially could spend more time in jail and pay a heavier fine for a laser pointer than heroin, an unlicensed firearm or a hand grenade? That doesn't strike you as... illogical?

That would be a great news story in itself. Man's home searched, found in possession of home made high power laser pointer, gets 14 years in jail. In other news, man convicted of involuntary manslaughter to get 10, parole in 7 and half.

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[Dahamma]

No, a classical American response would be to point out that if you own a DVD burner, you already have a more-powerful laser than many of the banned devices.

But then I guess that's the difference between a country of free people who had to earn that freedom by force, versus a country full of quavering subjects who've been taught, as a culture, that they're not to be trusted.

Yeah, which explains why it took an American to use a seemingly innocent material like ammonium nitrate fertilizer to kill 170 people in Oklahoma City.

Give me a break - you can make all of the bullshit Revolutionary analogies you want, the fact is if a US single pilot were blinded by a DVD-homebrew-laser we'd all be forced to get permits for our DVD burners. For fucks sake, every air traveler in the country has to remove their shoes because one wacko thought he could put a bomb in his loafers.

Re:

[Man On Pink Corner]

Give me a break - you can make all of the bullshit Revolutionary analogies you want, the fact is if a US single pilot were blinded by a DVD-homebrew-laser we'd all be forced to get permits for our DVD burners. For fucks sake, every air traveler in the country has to remove their shoes because one wacko thought he could put a bomb in his loafers.

Funny, I can still buy ammonium nitrate here in the admittedly-far-from-perfect US.

What is the government of Australia going to do when someone burns down a nightclu

Re:

[MrNaz]

I have no problem with you needing a class 4 laser. However if you need something that has a hugely limited use potential (we're not talking about something as commonly necessary as a screwdriver or a hammer here) and at the same time has the ability to cause grievous harm very easily if even slightly negligently used, then yes, I (speaking on behalf of any rational human being) would want you to demonstrate need and responsibility in order to have it.

These lasers are powerful enough to cause serious injury

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[More_Cowbell]

Well, I RTFAs (the whole two paragraphs of each). It certainly seems like you've hit the nail on the head and I would have to agree - at least without having heard an argument for the other side.

That said, I would wonder a few things:
1. How hard would it be to get a permit? (For instance I have no need for (nor do I own) a class 3 or 4... but I always thought it sounded fun, and I consider myself responsible enough to own one - the same as I feel about guns.
2. Punishable by up to 14 years in jail. Um, Wtf?

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Getting a permit is as simple as providing a practical application that you require one for.
2. All this talk about lasers being capable of bringing down planes, while serious, is at this stage theoretical. While that gives plenty of people the excuse to keep saying "see, it's harmless" right up until a plane crash is caused by it (at which stage they'll switch to "it's virtually always harmless, just like using forks!"), if you're the poor joe who manages to achieve this feat, expect a 14-year jail sente

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[propanol]

For people who're not up to speed on laser classifications, a level 3 laser is one that outputs between 5-500 mW and a level 4 goes beyond 500 mW. Already at 100 mW the laser is strong enough to make you blind in less than a millisecond. These laser pointers are not like the ones you'll find in common shops, these can inflict serious damage on people and should be handled with the same care as you'd handle a weapon (which they arguably could be classified as).

Re:

[syousef]

5-10mW lasers are often used in astronomy as the beam can be seen against even suburban skies and can be used to point out features in the night sky. You are very very careful not to shine one in a person's eye, but unless you're being an idiot about it, it's not something that's hard to avoid. Only point it up.

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[ColaMan]

Only point it up.

I believe that's the problem they're trying to address.

Re:

[ArsenneLupin]

Only point it up.

Thanks, you've just made their point. Guess in whose eyes you (risk to) shine it when you point it up?

Re:

[loraksus]

FAIL
1-5mW lasers are rated class 3a according to ANSI Z136.1 - and most - hell, virtually all - pen lasers are class 3a.
But, hey, feel free to continue making idiotic comments that include statements like "good enough for most people" and "can get a permit".

Re:

[timmarhy]

so what's your argument there chump? that all pen lasers are dangerous so lets just leave it that way?

Re:It's only class 3 and 4 lasers

[moosesocks]

DOUBLE-FAIL.

ANSI (American National Standards Institute) laser classifications are not used in Australia, and are indicated by roman numerals instead of digits (eg. Class IIIa). There is no class 3a in the international system.

A 5-500mW visible HeNe laser would be classified as 3b under the international system, and can be extremely dangerous if placed in the wrong hands.
Class 3R lasers are still potentially hazardous, although consdierably less so without the proper optics. I'm not sure if Australia are considering an exemption for 3R devices....
Most "laser pointers" should fall under Class 1 and 2.

(However, you were correct in stating that most laser pointers are ANSI Class IIIa)

Re:

[syousef]

In other words YOU don't need one so YOU think it's fine.

I own a few telescopes, and have a laser pointer. I don't use the telescopes or the pointer as much as I'd like to but now I have to go home and check if it's class 2 or 3, and then work out if I have to get rid of it if it's class 3.

Astronomy education? Who needs it! Never mind that the criminal fucks that were trying to blind pilots were using more powerful lasers, lets ban the 5mW ones as well. Oh and lets classify it as a weapon so you need to sto

You cat harasser

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a "extra bright" laser pointer from Edmond Scientific. It turns out it's a Class IIIa with about 5mWatts of output. Most others have substantially less. I'm still vary careful about using it around reflective surfaces and no matter how fun it is, I won't harrass my cats with it.

So unless you have in fact harassed your cats with it, how would you know how fun it is to do it? Explain that one, you CAT HARASSER!

I've been injured by one.

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, I'm one of those who've been injured with a laser pointer. It took a momentary glance up the street after leaving a Newtown bar with friends for me to be left with a blind wiggle across my right eye, from the lower right to the upper left, running right through my fovea. I'm unable to read unless I use my left eye, because with my right there just aren't any words there. I can see the big picture, but no details. That was July 2006, and two years of partial blindness makes a hell of a difference to life. Forget watching fast paced movies and having a clue what's going on, get ready to read 1/3 the speed you used to, and forget being able to look at code and tell the difference between { and ( without using a 20 point font.

And perl... it's all but incomprehensible.. oh wait, I learned that after being blinded. I kid I kid.

The thing about the tools who use laser pointers like this is they can be so far away nobody has any idea who they are, where they are, the beam is silent, and about all you can tell is it's over-that-way-somewhere. The bouncers around that night said they'd seen a laser pointer dot bouncing over guests through the evening, but thought nothing of it.

Whether or not they should be banned is one question, but comparing them to screwdrivers, knives, or axes is being a git who doesn't turn their brain on. At least if some bastard had come at me with a knife they'd have been caught, and at the very least been beaten into a pulp by either my friends, or the bouncers.

The laser pointer tools though - anonymous, quiet, pretty much undetectable, and their weapon leaves absolutely no evidence behind of what it was apart from really fucking bright.

Re:I've been injured by one.

[Anonymous Coward]

haha. gotta love the internet experts.

1. Yes, I did see the source of the beam. That's what killed my sight. Unfortunately, you see, when you get one straight in the eyeball you don't see some guy holding a laser pointer a few hundred feet away, you see a massive flash that feels like someone's smacked you one in the face. hard.

2. Luck of the draw. On a night of how many hundred people in a nightclub, one gets hit. Go fire a gun into a crowd of 100,000 close people. Each one has almost no chance of being hit, yet you're going to hit one.

3. Here, hold this 10 gram 60C iron ball in your hand. I see you're able to hold it with a little discomfort until you absorb its heat. Now here', stick this second 10 gram 60C iron ball in your eye. What's that, you can't see now?

Re:

[freedom_india]

A class 2 laser is good enough for most people, and if you really need a bigger one

Probably you need a class 3 or 4 to prove your mahood or whatever is that you aussies need to prove.
And while you are at it, have you thought about classifying led-light flashlights as weapons? They too are bright, shiny and powerful enough.
Also metal forks and metal spoons: They can used as deadly weapons in an assault by kids at home.
Also the plastic carrybags that Coles and Woolworths sooo love to hand out: They are deadly too. One kid can choke another. Have you seen Urban Legends movie?
Also sharp penc

Re:

[gweihir]

What about class 3a (5mW)? I have a green class 3a, since a class 2 does not cut it with a bright beamer in a large lecture hall. In Europe, up to 3a is legal for everybody.

makes no sense

[nguy]

These incidents are, overall, extremely rare. In-flight they are not an issue at all. Furthermore, pilots better be able to deal with them, since there are lots of other sources of bright light that may cause them to be temporarily blinded (or experience the "photic sneeze").

If lawmakers are just itching to make a new law, make it a specific law that says that it's illegal to carry a laser pointer on your person, outdoors, within 2 miles of the runway, where it could be pointed at planes taking off or landing.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

As an Australian Commercial pilot I have been victim to these laser attacks before around the Melbourne area. How the fuck are we meant to deal with them? What the hell do you suggest? Put up a fucking mirror? We're either concentrating on approach or gaining altitude, we shouldn't have to worry about some fuckwit with a laser.
If I'm flying VFR and I can't fucking see then I am going I'm going to have an accident.
To be honest this law isn't going to change much, because the problem is they don't know who th

Re:

[Whiteox]

Ignore that. It was meant for a different post..... my bad.

Actually, it's a real problem

[caitsith01]

There have been half a dozen or so such incidents in Australia in the last few months, including one which involved coordinated beams from multiple locations directed at the same plane.

E.g.:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/08/2211257.htm [abc.net.au]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/11/2214689.htm [abc.net.au]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/29/2202704.htm [abc.net.au]

As an Australian who flies quite a lot, I'm extremely happy for them to ban these things if it stops morons from blinding my pilot on final approach. The fact that there have been coordinated attacks is also evidence that it is more than an incidental problem.

Re:

[gweihir]

First, koordinated attacks on a plane of this nature allready are higly criminal. No need to make the laser possession criminal as well. What is needed instead is finding these iditots and punishing them as the wanabee murderers they are. The tool is not the issue. There is numberous other dangerous equipment with potentially a similar death toll. (Incidentially the risk is not that high for the airplace scenario.)

Re:

[jamesh]

temporarily blinded

I'm not sure how much the effect diminishes with range, but the sort of blinding caused by the lasers covered by this sort of legislation can be anything but temporary...

scare mongering

[nguy]

That's bullshit. Laser pointers have a few mW power (more powerful lasers are already regulated); they don't cause blindness even at short range, let alone at a distance of hundreds of feet when pointed at a moving plane with a pilot with normal blink reflexes. You really have to work hard to produce any kind of damage with a laser pointer.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2005-rst/2800.html [mayoclinic.org]

Hmmm...

[DiSKiLLeR]

Somewhat stupid, sure, like the first post talking about banning headlights so we can't blind other drivers.

But then after stories like this on salshdot: http://slashdot.org/articles/07/08/09/0412215.shtml [slashdot.org], I'm not the least bit surprised?

The laser pointers will look harmless

[antifoidulus]

compared to the chaos that will ensue after the cats of Australia have found out what lawmakers have done with their favorite toy and rise up as one to slay them.

First they disarmed the wookies

[The Famous Druid]

and I stayed silent.

Then they disarmed the ewoks, and I stayed silent.

Then they came to disarm me, and there was no-one left to speak up.

Re:

[jamesh]

Then they came to disarm me ...

... so I shone a class 3 laser pointer into their eyes and blinded the bastards!

Shaky Logic

[Doc Ruby]

Have pilots really been blinded by lasers pointed from the ground? Because the pointer can't get within a thousand feed of a plane, and actually even more at the angles that can reach over the plane's body and into the pilot's windows. At that distance, these laser pointers' beams are spread out pretty wide, so the person pointing them can possibly see the dot from that far away. So the brightness on the tiny fraction of that dot's area that actually falls on the pilot's eye is pretty small. Even more probl

Re:

[aXis100]

Supposedly at those sorts of instances, the laser has spread out over the windscreen and flashes the entire cockpit.

As far as I am aware, the pilots themselves have reported this so I assume they think it's bad.

Re:

[Eris13]

Yes, there have been numerous examples of this happening: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/11/2214689.htm [abc.net.au]

Most incidents take place on landing or takeoff. Green lasers also being notoriously good at remaining focused enough for the several hundred meters needed to completely blind a pilot at night.

Re:

[Doc Ruby]

Well, this is indeed about planes, as that is what the Australian government is invoking to justify it.

But as for using it on cars, which is a much more plausible abuse, I'd make it just as illegal as throwing battery acid between open windows in cars already is, which it probably is - the law probably doesn't specify what substance is thrown between the cars, but rather the effects on the other driver. Throw a few people trying it in jail, make a big stink about it on TV, and you won't see it happen again

Guns don't kill people

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Laser pointers do !

Face + palm.

[rindeee]

So since a handful of people do something stupid with a laser pointer, AUS outlaws them. I've got to think that far more deaths are caused by car accidents as a result of people being 'brighted'. Will they outlaw high-beams. They should probably outlaw really bright directionally focused light sources altogether. Better outlaw water while they're at it. I mean, look how many people drown every year.

Oblig.

[tick-tock-atona]

Homer: A high powered laser is not a weapon, Marge, it's a tool. Like a butcher's knife or a harpoon, or... or an alligator.

Will they ban DVD writers, too?

[petes_PoV]

Hand held lasers are one thing

but the laser inside a DVD writer is just as powerful (pop balloons, light matches) although less accessible.

If people were genuinely trying to disable pilots (a feat of aiming that's so close to impossible as to make downing an aircraft by throwing stones at it look credible) they could easily extract these and use them in the same way.

Laserpointers are weapons?

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

Cool! That means I'm armed and dangerous.
Finaly I can start robbing banks. The not-having-enough-money-to-buy-a-gun is no longer a show stopper.

What about Class 3a?

[gweihir]

I carry around a class 3A ( 5mW) laser pointer, which is perfectly legal in Europe. From Class 3B onwards, you need to be a ctrained in laser safety. Would the 3a make me a weapons carrier in Australia?

They just need a warning label

[jamesh]

They just need a warning label, like 'Warning: Do not point laser at remaining pilot'.

Is this news?

[dajak]

Lasers class 3 and up are already prohibited in many countries, at least the Netherlands, Belgium, and France.

A message from firearms enthusiasts everywhere...

[HomerNet]

Welcome to the club! I would offer you a welcome gift basket, but it's being held up in legal pending approval of the government that all products in it are certified non-lethal.

  We've prepared for you a chair. You'll need something comfortable to sit in while you wait for years and years of court cases, as standing that whole time is just uncomfortable.

I see you've found our complimentary golf-towels. Oh, no, we don't have a golf course. See, the government doesn't trust us with any small object that travels at anything resembling a high speed. The golf-towel is to dry the nervous sweat from your brow as you sit on the edge of that comfortable chair as the courts decide on cases that could either classify you as the law-abiding citizen simply for doing the things you've always done or declare you a criminal simply for doing the things you've always done.

Oh, and we have over there our Screech-o-mat(tm), a device that you can pull the lever on to remind you of the pointlessness of arguing your case that you're not a bad guy for simply owning a useful tool, because all you'll get if you DO defend yourself is the screeching and wailing of fear-mongers and politicians who are slowly stripping away your rights and liberties "for the children." Oh, there it goes. Yes, it's normally that loud, and yes, the "arguments" it spouts are all direct quotes from the people who think you're a danger to life, the universe, and everything simply for being Not Them. I guess Bob needed his daily reminder.

Uh-oh, Phil over there forgot to use the Screech-o-mat again! Don't mind him, he'll wind down in about 10 minutes or so. That's what happens when you don't use the Screech-o-mat, you start to wonder why the world doesn't make sense and wonder if you're living in a madhouse. Yeah, that's why he's shouting that at the top of his lungs...oh, hey, he ran down quicker than usual. He must not have had his morning coffee...oh, no, wait...there it is. His soul just got crushed under the realization that the inmates are running the asylum and there's really not much that can be done about it anymore, as everybody in power seems to have checked their common sense at the door and lost their claim ticket.

Don't worry, you get used to it after a while. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go use the Screech-o-mat.

one of your possible futures - or an exaggeration?

[moxley]

Wow..they sure have mangled the freedoms and rights of Australians in the past 8 years. Gun rights? Gone. Now laser pointers?

It's happening everywhere. Well, let's just cut to the chase (or the future):

The US, UK, and Austrailia are combined into one giant country, locked down like a prison. Everyone is chipped, everything is monitored and tracked. You cannot own a gun or laser pointer, hell - you cannot even own a flashlight without registering it as only cops and burglers need them, and you're not a cop.

Matter of fact, you can't really own anything.

So you have applied for ownership of a car, which is a class c restricted motorized device?

Nope, don't think so Application denied - only criminals and party members use cars, they are quite potent weapons and very dangerous and since we care about keeping YOU safe above all else let me just point out some of the many uses of a 'car" -

You could run someone over-especially children.

You could use the car as a bomb and run it into government buildings, and we can't have that.

You could use it in your garage to gas yourself (that is, if we don't make it there in time to stop you once we've noticed you're spending an inordinate amount of time sitting in the garage in one place with an illegal motorized device running).

You could use it to try to leave the country; that would be unsafe, you could get in an accident or end up trying to live somewhere where there is no government to protect you, or one that won't protect you enough.

  - So you can see, that we really do care - and we are, above all else: FAIR. DNA does not lie. We genotyped you AND your children and your wife and you all show a high propensity for independent thought, distrust of authority and suseptibility to disease. You children show possible criminal tendencies with a 20% liklihood of un-societal behavior. This is why you have been given a repetitive manufacturing job in the D-5 neighborhood and why your children will be educated at the government happy child camp.

Remember, safety and security above all else; without it, and without us - you have nothing!

Re:Lawful reason

[scum-e-bag]

This is a little excessive, and I challenge the govenrment in NSW to define a lawful reason.

I can think of a logical reason (if you can call it logical).

This whole exercise is not much more than a political diversion. Sydney has some major water/traffic/infrastructure/social/political problems. Rather than deal with them and have everyone talking about how bad the public transport is to the outer suburbs (for example), get everyone talking about laser pointers!!! The lower classes lap it up. It's exactly the same tactic as the Tasmanian governments tactic to push for a state bogan-ball team in the national competition, while avoiding the more pressing issue of two deputy leaders being sacked for corruption within a very short space of time.

It's got very little to do with safety and much more to do with politics and power.

Re:Lawful reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the commentary Mr. Armchair Aviation Security Expert.
I am an Australia Flight Instructor rated for night flying. The fuckwits target us at least once a week around Melbourne especially on approach (Usually Essendon and Moorabbin too).
How the fuck am I suppose to fucking land when I have some asshole trying blind me? As another pilot here said (Is that you Rob?) "If I'm flying VFR and I can't fucking see then I am going I'm going to have an accident".
And what possible political purpose in your dimwit mind of yours could there be to ban high powered laser pointers? A distraction for more serious issues? Are you saying that the possibility of an aircraft crashing into built areas is not serious?

Re:Lawful reason

[ta bu shi da yu]

Flamebait? which genius modded that comment to this? I can definitely imagine that a pilot might say this, given that the United States Congressional Research Service [fas.org] found that:

These higher powered laser devices can incapacitate pilots and inflict eye injuries when viewed at closer ranges. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) documented two such cases in which pilots sustained eye injuries and were incapacitated
during critical phases of flight. In one of these events, the pilot experienced a burning sensation and tearing. A subsequent eye examination revealed "multiple flash burns" in the pilot's cornea. In a few other documented incidents, pilots provided safety reports indicating that injuries were sustained from exposure to laser lights. In one case, a copilot received burns on the outer coating of the eye and broken blood vessels.6 In another incident, a pilot was struck several times by a laser beam and was diagnosed as having a "burned retina." In about a dozen other cases, pilots reported short term visual impairment that did not require further medical attention.

FAA researchers have compiled a database of more than 400 incidents since 1990 in which pilots have been startled, distracted, temporarily blinded, or disoriented by laser exposure. To date no aviation accidents have been attributed to laser lights, although there have been crashes caused by similarly debilitating glare and flashblinding from natural sunlight. Flight simulator studies conducted by the FAA found that exposure to bright lasers can result in unacceptable levels of visual and operational problems, but concluded that enforcing already established limits to protect pilots from laser exposure when operating near airports provides an adequate margin of safety.

Flamebait? Sounds like he's being positively reasonable to me!

Re:Lawful reason

[Kartoffel]

Well, since it's acceptable for you to ban laser pointers on behalf of the 0.001% of users who use them inappropriately, let's also ban airplanes. Here in the US, we've had a problem with a very small portion of airplanes crashing into large buildings.

You're probably the type of driver who stares directly into oncoming headlamps at night, then bitches that it's hard to see the road. Don't stare. It's a miracle you haven't blinded yourself looking at the sun already.

Re:Lawful reason

[Muad'Dave]

As an Amateur Radio operator, I use (admittedly low power) laser pointers as point-to-point communications links. I am mindful of the exposure limits, and pre-spread the beam if necessary to comply. By using higher power, I could increase not only the distance over which the link were useful, but also the data rate for existing links.

Is that legitimate and lawful enough for you?

Re:Lawful reason

[Fizzog]

"Tell me one legitimate and lawful purpose that an ordinary person needs these types of high powered lasers?"

Green lasers (which are the ones at issue here) are used by astronomers and astronomy teachers/students to point out constellations and stars at night. The green beam is visible in air while red beams are not.

Are you telling us that astronomy should be illegal?

Needs a technological solution

[maillemaker]

Sounds to me like we need a technological solution.

If laser pointers are this dangerous simply banning them is not going to be much of a deterrent against someone who wants to use one to /really/ crash an airplane.

I wonder if some kind of coating can be applied to the windows of airliners that can reduce the intensity of laser beams without compromising pilot visibility?

Re:Lawful reason

[Technician]

How the explitive deleted am I suppose to explicitive deleted land when I have some asshole trying blind me?

Most issues is with green pointers. Have you considered picking up a pair of laser safety goggles for green lasers? Many narrow band goggles will almost completely block the wavelength so you don't even see it. Demo here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gagEdCVgRhY [youtube.com]

They work well.

Re:

[BazilBBrush]

This whole exercise is not much more than a political diversion. Sydney has some major water/traffic/infrastructure/social/political problems. Rather than deal with them and have everyone talking about how bad the public transport is...

Crapola to you and the previous post.

Have you seen the view out of a cockpit when a laser pointer is trained on it? A. There is none...

Pilots don't like losing their view by these things. They do have a bit of responsibility to land the big paraffin budgie with all on

Re:Lawful reason

[Hal_Porter]

I really hate idiots who play with laser pointers. The ones being banned in Australia are Class III and Class IV ones which can easily blind someone.

personally, popping balloons with the things is a lawful reason to carry :)

It seems like if it can pop balloons, it's not the sort of thing you want drunken kids playing with. My right not to be blinded trumps your right to burst balloons when drunk.

Here's what a 5mW laser looks like to a pilot.

http://www.pangolin.com/faa/laser-aircraft-animation-and-explanation.htm [pangolin.com]

Re:Lawful reason

[Spasemunki]

If we're going to ban everything that isn't safe for use by drunken children, we're not going to be left with much that's legal.

Re:

[kestasjk]

That's right! First they'll take laser pointers from stupid vandals, then they'll take away our right to free speech, then they'll enslave us and treat us like beasts of burden!

Re:

[gweihir]

If we're going to ban everything that isn't safe for use by drunken children, we're not going to be left with much that's legal.

Sad, but rue. What about saws? I hear they can be used to cut rails. Or cars? You can drive them through a crowded mall after all. Or matches, since you can light up buildings (committing mass murder) with them.

The sensible approach is to try to get these idiots pointing these things at airplanes and to hit them hard. Anubody whio has ever used a class 2 pointer with a bright beame

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

I'm a bit unsure where you're going with this. Firstly, I thought that you didn't like the new law. Then you said that they should catch those shining the laser into the pilot's eyes. But what are they going to "hit them hard" with? Isn't that the point of the legislation?

Re:

[gweihir]

There is a difference between owning a potentially dangerous object and using such an object as a weapon.

In Europe, shining a laser at an airplane is a criminal offense, just because endangering airplanes is a crimninal offense. Similarly, owning a large kitchen knife is perfectly legal. Trying to stab someone is not at all. It is intent that makes all the difference.

So, yes, I think this law is completely stupid. A law against intentionally endangering the lifes of others (with a side note by the courts th

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

That's where you and I differ. If the device is dangerous and not really useful for no other reason than to cause mischief or a crime, it should be illegal. Why would you need to carry around a class IV laser again?

Re:Lawful reason

[Hal_Porter]

"They" won't "ban" everything that is misused by drunken children. What they will do to some extent is license things where the risk of people carrying them outweighs the benefit.

Ultra high power laser pointers are a special category - they can blind someone permanently from a distance but there is no legitimate reason to carry one in your pocket. Thus carrying them without a license should be illegal and people that break the law should be punished. The rationale for that is the otherwise kids will shine them in people's eyes either deliberately or accidentally (maybe they were aiming at balloons) permanently blind them.

From what I've read, there are people that need these things for their jobs, and they will get a license to have one and training on how to use it.

In the UK there is similar legislation recommended
http://www.liv.ac.uk/radiation/pdf/laserpointers.pdf [liv.ac.uk]
The HPA considers the professional use of a Class 1 or Class 2 laser pointer as a training aid in the workplace to be justified, and regards these Classes of laser product as being generally adequate for such use. The use of Class 3R laser pointers up to 5 mW may be justified for some applications in the workplace where the user has received adequate training.

The HPA advises that the sale of laser products to the general public for use as laser pointers should be restricted to Class 1 or Class 2 devices which should be classified in accordance with the requirements of the current British Standard and should be sold with sufficient accompanying information to enable the user to operate the product in a safe manner. Toys should be Class 1 or of such low output that they do not need to be classified.

After seeking advice from NRPB (now the Radiation Protection Division of the HPA) the Department of Trade and Industry urged Trading Standards Authorities to use their existing powers under the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 5 to remove laser pointers of a Class higher than Class 2 (as defined in the British Standard) from the general market. Such devices are too powerful for general use as laser pointers and present an unacceptable risk in the hands of the consumer because they may cause eye injury in normal reasonably foreseeable use.

Now lots of other things are potentially lethal but are mostly used legitimately. Cars for example. And at least in America guns are protected by the Second Amendment.

High power laser pointers seem to be popular with idiots who use them for tricks in an unsafe way - other posters have talked about kids zapping drivers at stop lights and TFA talks about people shining them at pilots in planes. I once went to a computer user group meeting at a pub where someone had a HeNe laser and was shining out at people on the street. Later on he actually said it would cause blindness if you looked into it. Unbelievable.

I think for that reason they should be controlled by a license. If you need one for your job, apply for a license. If not, expect a prison term if you carry one around in most countries.

Re:Lawful reason

[Eth1csGrad1ent]

I really hate idiots who play with laser pointers.

I'm with you. I'm an Aussie and I'm fine with the law.

Recent personal experience: I was the first to pull up to a stop light on a 4-lane road, with my wife beside me and my two year old daughter in the back seat. As I put my foot on the brake approaching the intersection I suddenly suffered a complete loss of vision (As IN - WHAT THE F..K??? I CANT SEE. MY EYES? WTF IS WRONG WITH MY EYES!?!?). In the confusion I somehow managed to come to my senses enough to lock the brakes before going through the intersection.

As my eyesight returned and I sat there trying to work out what just happened, I turned to see a 15-16 year old sitting in a car beside me with his mates, laughing their arses off.

I nearly wiped out my whole family - and they thought it was the funniest thing in the world.

The problem was - at the time I had NO IDEA what was happening to me - I didnt know it was a laser pointer until afterwards. At a critical moment I blinked and my eyes didnt work - it FREAKED me out, and this wasnt even one of the lasers that they're banning.

BTW - Yes I got out of the car..and YES, I still have the laser pointer the kid used.

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

Awesome... I would have thrashed the kid. Or called the cops.

Re:

[gweihir]

The problem here is the kids, not the laser pointer.

Recently a young mother was kuilled in germany because somebody threw a large block of wood form a bridge. Ban wooden blocks or bridges as response? No. But try to get the people that did this as the (potential) murderers that they are.

Laser pointers are not toys and they do not belong into the hands of the under-age. Now that limitation I could well understand.

Re:

[loraksus]

The majority of - and I mean virtually all, except the perhaps the ones sold at the dollar store (end even then) - laser pointers fall into class 3a - for these lasers "eye protection is afforded by the "blink aversion response" to class 3a lasers, except when the laser is viewed using optical aids (telescopes, binoculars)" (http://www.bccdc.org/content.php?item=54)

Clearly, some people - people who actually have, you know, some actual knowledge of the subject - contradict your statement that these lasers ca

Re:

[loraksus]

And to continue on this for a bit...
150 knots (more or less average approach speed for larger aircraft) translates to about 250 feet per second.
On the 4th pic, they "show" you what a 1/6th of a second exposure would look like at 350 feet.

I'm not going to do the math, but I'd wager money that;

1. It it possible for a human to physically move the pointer fast enough to follow the cockpit as it passes overhead at that speed (you're talking about a fairly significant arc)
2. It is possible for someone on the grou

Re:

[Technician]

I really hate idiots who play with laser pointers. The ones being banned in Australia are Class III and Class IV ones which can easily blind someone.

I just checked my stock of laser pointers. I don't have any of the super power stuff, just common red classroom pointers. They are all class IIIa devices. Can you even buy a class II pointer? The only class II laser I could find nearby is a bar code scanner. I could see a ban on class 4 lasers and maybe IIIb, but banning IIIa, would eliminate almost all la

Re:Lawful reason

[Hal_Porter]

My right not to be blinded trumps your right to burst balloons when drunk.

No it doesn't. Your right to not be blinded can only trump someone's right to point a fucking laser pointer at your eyes.

What you are saying is equivalent to "nobody should be allowed to carry a knife because they *might* stab me with it". Pure idiocy.

If we all lived in a nice libertarian utopia full of moderately intelligent people that would work well. They could be trusted to carry a weapon but not use it unless they were under mortal danger since they wouldn't want to harm anyone or go to prison. But we don't. In Australia and the UK there are packs of chavs that dazzle drivers with lasers as they pull up to stop signs to amuse their friends. Sometimes those drivers get out of the car. Then if they're lucky they beat the shit out of the chavs, and if they're unlucky the chavs beat the shit out of them. Basically the chavs want to pick a fight with people to kill time.

When you're dealing with people like that, it's unfortunately necessary to take away people's right to carry lasers that could actually cause eye damage. And come to think of it, pretty much any weapon. The problem is that the chav scum basically have nothing to do other than pick fights with random passers by. They have absolutely no ability to see that in the long run this will land them in prison. If you let them have low power lasers they will dazzle people to try to start some drama. If you give them high power lasers they will blind someone and if you let them have knives or guns they will kill someone. In both cases they will be very surprised that they get sent to prison for life for doing this since they are too stupid to see the inevitable progression from picking fights with strangers to killing or maiming someone to serious jail time. This makes them very unlike the moderately intelligent citizens of a hypothetical libertarian utopia and that is why libertarian rules are not applied to them.

In the UK if you want to carry a knife, expect the police to ask for a good reason if they search you and find it. Which if you're a chav they will do if you hang around causing trouble. If you don't provide one, you'll get done for carrying an offensive weapon. So carrying kitchen knives is out unless you're a chef on your way to work for example. Actually, if you're chav vermin, then expect to get done for carrying anything at all that could possibly harm someone, regardless of whether you're a chef or not.

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

Withot knowing where you've lived, it's hard not to call "bullshit" on this statement.

Re:Lawful reason

[MrNaz]

Will my tank full of sharks count as a "lawful reason"?

Re:While we're at it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of people were quick to jump on the "let's ban X and Y every-day items as well" bandwagon. But seriously, for what legitimate reason might someone carry around a class 3 or 4 laser? If they have a reason to have that equipment (researchers, etc), then it's considered lawful use, and the authorities won't hassle you. Why is it important that the rest of us have access to powerful lasers?

Cars are an essential tool in most peoples' lives. We realize they kill more people than lasers, but we couldn't exactly give them up. Powerful lasers serve no useful purpose in the hands of someone who doesn't depend on them for work-related reasons, and so it seems like a smart move to take them away.

Of course, I don't think this will stop anyone from trying to bring down planes. It's just like banning guns in Australia - the people who want them to cause mischief aren't inconvenienced in the slightest by the lack of legal avenues through which they can obtain one. If you want to cause trouble, the black market will ALWAYS be there.

Re:While we're at it...

[Sobrique]

When I found out that it was legal to own and buy a 300mW laser pointer, I was actually quite suprised. Those are really quite hazardous without 'sensitive' handling. No one really cares about burning through paper or popping balloons, but the 'and might blind bystanders, even with just beam scatter' is IMO a good enough reason to restrict their usage.

Unlike arcwelders, or cars, I can't think of a lot of good reasons for a high intensity laser.

Having them available to 'everyone' in my opinion vastly increases the probabilty of a random fool doing something foolish.

But then, I think the same about firearms too, except even there there's 'real' self defense possibilities.

Re:

[Whiteox]

These kind of lasers are used for a lot of things almost everywhere and you don't realise its power or let alone how common they are.
Lasers are used in almost all woodworking power tools like drills, jigsaws, circular saws, cut off saws or anything that needs a pencil mark to cut or drill.
Then there are laser levels - the cheap ones (around $30) and the more expensive ones that can cast a line around 3 sides of a room. These are used in the building trades.
Then there are lasers used in surveying, rangefindi

Re:

[RuBLed]

Heck, we don't have to go through all of that. Just ban dying without lawful reason.

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

Ummm... not sure how to break it to you, but euthenasia is illegal and so is suicide.

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

I stand corrected.

The U.S. does already

[SuperKendall]

It's illegal to have headlights above a certain brightness level, or perhaps it's above a certain number of lights - but there are light configurations you can put on a car that will get you pulled over if you have them on for street driving.

Now it's not illegal to have said lights mounted, so that's the point where the car analogy breaks (as they always do). But it does show your point is not as ridiculous as you had thought, because having really bright beams pointed at traffic is in fact a valid safety issue.

Re:

[dandenoth]

It might very from state to state, but in my state both can get you pulled over or ticketed, and I should know since I've been pulled over for excessively bright lights(mine were 100w bulbs, max is 65) as well as an excessive number, which in my state is apparently more that four forward beams(I had six, although four of them were foglights). Also, certain colors of lights are also prohibited, such as black lights, blue lights, or pretty much anything that isn't white or amber in color. On topic now! Reali

Re:

[Yvanhoe]

Here we're not talking "blinded as I cannot see the road for 5 seconds", we are talking "blinded as my retina is gone"

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

If I'm driving at 110km/h down the Pacific Hwy and I lose eyesight for 5 seconds, I'm probably good as dead.

Re:

[jandersen]

While we're at it, let's ban bright beams so drivers can't be blinded either!

Most countries have clear restrictions on how bright your headlights can be, as a matter of fact. But quite apart from that, a laser pen can inflict permanent damage on a person's eyes, making them blind, which is why there is good reason to put restrictions on them. Seeing how you Americans are paranoid about terrorist getting into the country, you shouldn't have any qualms about this one - a laserpen is small enough to pose as a normal pen and can potentially cause trafic accidents, plane crashes etc.

So

Re:

[cheater512]

The summary doesnt make it clear but laser pointers have become a real problem.
Many idiots think its funny to shine them at pilots and its started to occur frighteningly often.
There have been a number of close calls when pilots have been blinded.

They arent banning your regular laser pointers.
Just the stupidly powerful ones which most people do not need.
Cool for popping a balloon, not so cool when its in a pilot's face with hundreds of people's lives in the balance.

Re:While we're at it..

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

Oh please, big government, save us from ourselves by outlawing more things! We don't need to be personally accountable for our own actions!

Re:While we're at it..

[BlackSabbath]

It's not about saving us from ourselves. Its specifically about saving a couple of hundred other people (mainly in flying metal cylinders) from idiots who think doing this is clever. Remember, your right to flail your arms around like a madman end where my face begins.

I don't know the prevalence of this "point laser at pilot" behaviour, but assuming that its not ludicrously small (there sure have been a lot of incidents hit the news down here recently, any pilots reading /. ?), and also assuming that its well nigh impossible to find the little fuckers who are doing it, then banning laser pointers powerful enough (or with a beam coherent enough over long distances), is possibly a valid thing.

Personally, I say "meh". I can't recall the last presentation where someone actually used one as anything other than a fidget-widget.

Re:While we're at it..

[electrictroy]

But is it necessary to BAN the pointers? Punish 99.99% of the population, because of the misbehavior of a few? That seems out-of-bounds.

The more logical course would be to locate the criminal with a pointer in his hand, and then shoot him dead. Punish that ONE person, not everybody.

Re:While we're at it..

[BigDogCH]

Maybe take some of the useless "luggage screeners" and send them out to grab the laser felons.

We sealed the cockpit doors, so now they come through the windows.

Maybe we should put bigger lasers on the planes, and fire back. It shouldn't be hard to hit the person....they are giving us a beacon.

Re:

[TapeCutter]

I really have no idea what they want to find out about me, they know I don't like them and that I like their recent predecesors even less (mainly because I'd rather be re-Neducated than incarcerated).

We had an "ideas summit" here on the weekend that "drew together the county's best and brightest". There was a sound bite from one of these people who looked remarkably like a 30 something bonghead, "We are here to imagine a better life for everyone.". A shudder went down my spine as the words fell out of hi

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

Do you have a list of ideas from the 2020 Summit that the rest of is not aware of? If so, could you point me to it? Thanks.

Re:While we're at it..

[GigaplexNZ]

Fuck that shit. America in its entirety is a free speech zone. Anyone who doesn't believe that, with no exceptions or reservations, can line up so I, and the rest of us who believe in the Constitution exactly as written, can piss in your mouth.

Trying to silence the people who disagree? Sounds like a typical supporter of free speech to me.

I'd just like to point out that this article is about Australia, don't bring America into this. Not everything is about America.

Re:

[ta bu shi da yu]

It is about America if said American debater either feels defensive of/morally superior to the other person's point of view.

My Mouse has a Laser Pointer in it!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

It seems so much... cooler, now that it is a weapon!

Too bad it can't obliterate assholes who want to lock us all up. :-(

I preferred the "risky" world we lived in in the 90's. Life was worth the hazard.

More people STILL die on freeways than any "terrorist" action, but cars are still legal, and I can't bring shampoo on the plane.

Re:

[Ross D Anderson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones [wikipedia.org]
Do some basic research before you act like a prick in future

Re:

[electrictroy]

Ironically, that is the tactic the Southern "slave power" used to silence Abolitionists in the 1840s-60s. They even passed a resolution in the U.S. Congress forbidding the introduction of anti-slavery laws, much to the chagrin of John Quincy Adams who insisted he has a right to free speech. Mr. Adams kept trying to introduce new laws, but the Southern Congressmen would shout him down, and accuse him of violating Congressional rules.

What better way to maintain slavery than to silence the critics.

The issue

Re:

[electrictroy]

>>>"Also sounds pointless, since the President isn't bound by Congressional Resolutions."

You know that saying about "assuming" things? Yeah, well you're guilty of it. (wink). John Quincy Adams was a Congressman at the time (not president), and therefore forbidden from introducing legislation to curb or lesson slavery. The Southern "slave power" had effectively taken control of Congress and forbidden free speech.

>>>"They had Free Speech too, and could use it to shout down people they di

Re:

[Technician]

I don't think it's applicable to hand-held pointers or laser/pen combos (ie, most of what you can actually buy anyway).

Check your pocket. I have a couple $3 pen pointer sets collecting dust. They are all IIIa devices. I don't have a single class II pointer.. Do they really have a class II laser pointer? I don't have any.