French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP 663
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
I for one... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm surprised it's so much (Score:3, Interesting)
That will force them to give options (Score:5, Interesting)
This will force the PC vendors (in France anyway) to provide better Linux options.
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Insightful)
What it will do is encourage the companies to not force bundled software. Either they'll make a point of selling bare-bones PC's, or they'll start honoring refund requests. If their licensing with Microsoft prevents that, then maybe they'll consider another operating system (which Microsoft would never allow to happen, Microsoft will just lower the price of licensing to make sure sales continue).
Nothing says it'd have to be Linux, it could be joe schmoes Perl-based OS if that's what Asus thought was a good deal for customers.
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:4, Interesting)
The bare-bones PC is for the enthusiast or the IT pro.
It does not sell as a mass market retail product in sufficient numbers to keep you in business.
If their licensing with Microsoft prevents that, then maybe they'll consider another operating system
Not bloody likely.
Not when Windows has 93% of the world market and the bundle of hardware and software which is the Mac has 6% of what remains.
ASUS is not in the business of shooting itself in the foot.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If they're not charging the customer for it in the first place, then the customer cannot expect a refund.
MadCow.
Re:That will force them to give options (Score:4, Interesting)
Making free offers that are contingent on a purchase is illegal in most European countries, both because it's considered false advertising (if the offer is contingent on a purchase, then it's not "free" - you are paying, no matter how much the vendor tries to convince you the price is all for the other part of the product), and because it's tying (bundling without an offer to offer the two products separately at their respective prices). False advertising is considered serious in itself.
False advertising and illegal tying combined is not a way to make people happy - that you can't make offers like that is something people tend to learn very quickly here...
Of course they could do this if they were prepared to offer people free Windows licenses without buying a computer, but somehow I doubt that would work out very well for the.
No EULA on (most) Linux (Score:4, Informative)
Windows wants you to agree to an EULA. Said EULA says that if you refuse you can get a refund.
We want the damn refund.
That is all.
I see that the French term for OS is... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I see that the French term for OS is... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I see that the French term for OS is... (Score:5, Funny)
Wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
ASUS (or wherever distributor) probably has the option of having a barebones components only option for purchasing, so do that, or at least ask if you can get one if its not advertised.
If it says "Comes With Windows XP Pre-Installed"... and he bought it, and then said "hey wait I dont want this"... too damn bad... keep the machine, or send the entire PC back... its not like it failed (jokes aside) as if it was a dud NIC or something...
"ASUS tried to apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer that they will give back..."
Tried? it seemed to have worked.
Anyone have a more informative non-french link to exactly what he bought, and what was advertised, etc?
Stop with the stupidity (Score:5, Funny)
2. It's the fucking law.
3. The EULA says that if you don't agree, you are entitled to
4. IT'S THE FUCKING LAW.
Re:Stop with the stupidity (Score:4, Interesting)
For someone that is the extremely naive libertarian in the sense of "the least number of laws possible" I can see opposing this, but anyone that want a market that is as free as possible really should think twice before coming out against laws like this - history is full of tying arrangements that have created real market barriers. Microsoft's practice of blanket licenses for OEM's being a perfect example. But Microsoft only got slapped down over it because of their extreme dominance - a smaller but still large player could still do a lot of damage with similar tactics.
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Interesting)
Completely irrelevant. French law, as in most of Europe, does not allow tying (bundling two or more products and refusing to sell them independently). If someone wants to buy a product by itself and the reseller refuses, then the approach of buying the product and requesting a refund for part of the bundle and suing if they refuse is perfectly reasonable - it's a way of ensuring that there's a real reason to comply with the law, lest they have to deal with a spate of lawsuits.
These laws have been on the book for decades, and they've proven time and time again to be good for consumers and good for competition.
Don't like it? Then don't do business here. Just as you have to comply with a buttload of other laws to do business anywhere, we expect people to adhere to laws to protect consumers and competition.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE."
Since the guy couldn't read the EULA before purchasing, and since tying the OS to the computer is ille
'Tied Selling' is illegal in many states. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is dumb (Score:4, Insightful)
This agreement states that if you do not agree to the terms you may turn off the computer and request a refund for Windows.
Anyone and Everyone who buys a new computer with windows pre-installed has the right to get a refund for Windows.
The reason this went to court was because ASUS was charging the customer more for shipping than they were refunding for Windows.
Anyone who says this shouldn't have gone to court is shooting themselves in the foot.. Even us in the USA have the right to return windows if we disagree with the EULA. I don't want OEM's making it cost me money to do so!
Microsoft should rejoyce (Score:3, Funny)
It's not about IF but HOW (Score:3, Insightful)
What the court has said was that it was not fair to charge you $200 for the software but only refund you $25 if you didn't choose to accept it.
And doesn't matter where you are from or how you buy your software/systems/pc - charging you $200 for something and refunding you $25 for it in an unused state is simply not fair.
Will this be applicable in the US, UK or AU? (Score:3, Interesting)
They are pulling this scam too by making the linux version with 50% less RAM, 50% less battery and taking away bluetooth!
Needless to say, many are miffed that they would have an unwanted software charge attached to the price just to get the more capable hardware!
Independent of this article I was bloody well going to ask for a refund on the unused XP as the precedent is already several years old IIRC. This news just makes my surety to demand it off them go from 50% to 95%.
Times are truly changing (Score:5, Insightful)
Either the people here are different now or it is french bashing time. Maybe both.
Three cheers for the french judge (Score:4, Interesting)
A heck of a lot of us live in countries where the native language isn't English. I'm English from the UK, but living 20 years over here in Greece (Europe).
Most of the laptop vendors ship *only* the local native language version of (mostly) Windows Vista. If you're really lucky then you might see the English version. I spend a lot of time "cleaning" bloody Greek Vista *off* new Acers, HP notebooks and replacing it with English XP. You see - here in Athens (Greece if you forgot) we have lots and lots of people from all over the world (who don't want a Greek system but got stuck with it when they bought their nice new shiny whatever).
I have the pleasure of babysitting a friends internet cafe (on sundays it's more like Manilla than Athens because that's the day the girls from the Phillipines get their day off - eat yer heart out basement dwellers (grins)).
Some of this nonsense wouldn't be needed if Vista shipped MUI out of the tin . (Curiously though the MUI version of XP seems to be the norm amongst my friends from the arab world).
If a machine ships with what is essentially a "useless" system, then you should be able to refuse the EULA and get a refund. What i'd really like to see is some EU wide ruling as to the *size* of that refund so that consumers would be aware of their rights . Fitness for use etc. is an issue.
Andy.
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:5, Informative)
If you or Asus don't like it, why don't you fucking go to Russia or something?
Re:No it's not, and quit the stupid analogies (Score:5, Informative)
No, you are wrong. It is a sensible law which has been based upon sound principles to ensure fair trading in France. You may not like it - but that doesn't make it stupid. (However, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, unless you live in France. The French like this law, or at least the majority do, and it is up to them which laws they have in their own country.) The law is intended to prevent tie-ins to any specific manufacturer which are not in the public interest. Your 'earlier explanation' can be easily countered. Those who are content to be tied to Microsoft's offering are free to buy the computer with the OS pre-installed. But those who do not agree to this have legal recourse to have the OS removed and fair costs refunded. This point has been argued for many times here on /. and I am surprised that when it is actually applied then someone thinks it is 'stupid'. What is stupid about giving users a choice, or people having the freedom to spend their money how they wish?
Your claim about the EULA is also wrong. Of course the purchaser might expect to be presented with a EULA but the EULA that you are supporting is not readable until it has been opened which in itself constitutes acceptance of it. That is not legal in France - or the rest of Europe for that matter. Secondly, the wrapping states quite clearly that, if you do not wish to accept the conditions of the EULA then you may return it unopened for a full refund. The customer was doing exactly this but was having unreasonable barriers placed before him to prevent him from benefiting from the refund. The judge viewed that as unfair and ordered ASUS to refund fair costs. Both Microsoft and ASUS are well aware of the statement on the EULA wrapping but both, in their own way, were attempting to make it uneconomical for the purchaser to exercise his rights.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The operating system is a component of the computer, just like the processor, video card, sound card, network card, monitor, keyboard, mouse, ... Just because it's not hardware doesn't make it less necessary for using the end product.
But it's NOT necessary for using the end product. LiveCD's are proof of that. And you can generally find models with or without the various add-in components.
To add to it, there is a market for operating systems independent of computers, which further solidified the arguments that they are independent products.
That does not forbid selling them together, but it also under the laws of MOST European countries make it legally questionable to require a customer to buy them together.
It's there for a reas
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's there for a reason: We actually care about the consumers rights, and companies better accept if they want access to our markets. Experience shows that not only is this good for consumers, but it's also good for the market as it encourages unhindered competition.
Does this mean that Apple sells bare-bones Macs in France? Is thei
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm asking seriously, how is th
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The only reason we view engines and air conditioning as irreplaceable parts of the car is the historical way we got here.
It would be fairly easy to force car makers to use standard connections and mounts and form factors for air conditioners and alternators instead of allowing the auto companies to customize them so they can be bundled.
I can't see that there is a need for more than a few kinds of alternators or A/C units.
Even for engines, the mountings cou
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I wanted an ASUS Computer, I should be able to buy JUST THAT. Most manufacturers still dont have a "No OS" option for their configured systems, and I'm damn sure that there isn't a single computer sold in a retail store that has "No OS" as an optional package(at least in the US).
Look, if the guy doesn't want to pay the Microsoft Tax, then he shouldn't have to. Last time I checked, they were 2 completely seperate companies, ASUS and Microsoft. Imagine that if every manufacturer pre-installed a $1000 copy of Adobe CS3 and you couldn't opt out of it, wouldn't you be a little pissed off? Wouldn't you feel that you'd have the right to get your money back for something you didn't want in the first place? This isn't the slightest bit different. Not to mention the whole EULA problem. If you can't see the EULA before you purchase something, you can't just say "Oh, well, I won't buy this then". If he didn't agree with the EULA upon starting his computer (which it may not have even appeared, if ASUS preinstalled XP, which would create a whole new problem in itself) then he has every right to tell ASUS to kiss his ass and give him his money back.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:5, Informative)
The computer was sold with XP pre-installed & a "shrink-wrapped" EULA. She wanted a computer but not XP, but was unable to buy a computer without XP pre-installed. This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
She didn't want to pay this "tax" so asked to be refunded the cost of XP.
Re:How does this make sense? Easily (Score:5, Insightful)
But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX? Apple doesn't give you the option to buy a Mac pro w/o an OS. Of course that's a moot point, since most people would buy a Mac because of the OS rather than them simply getting a PC and taking whatever OS they're given.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Funny)
Nah, that's a bullshit analogy. That's like your saying that a car needs power windows or AC to be usable - it's as if you're saying that an OS is an optional extra.
To be really useful cars, whether or not they have AC, need roads. Even off-road cars don't last long without them. Roads are the things that facilitate the application of the tool (car) to the task (transport), much like computer operating systems are to computers.
For a better analogy, try this:
See the difference?
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How does this make sense? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Insightful)
But if i'm not mistaken the EULA does say "Click Disagree" and then take it back for a refund?
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:4, Insightful)
How can I agree to something I haven't read yet?
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't like the law, stay out of France. The majority of the population here like it very much as it keeps the competition alive and healthy.
Re:I'm torn about this subject (Score:5, Informative)
Facilitating a monopoly (Score:5, Interesting)
Unlike USA - where the DOJ's anti-trust ruling has no real impact on MS's business - the Eurpoeans take this more seriously. They feel that there should be options other than the monopolistic one.
Forcing vendors to give back more than the XP cost sends a clear message: give non-MS options or feel the pain.
"You knew what the EULA was" (Score:3, Informative)
No you don't. The EULA is INSIDE the package, genius.
Re:If you don't like the bundle (Score:4, Informative)
Actually you're wrong, in France this is a right covered by law: two products sold together must be available alone too. You may agree or not with it, but in the end it's law and computer seller have to do it, so when an user go to court he wins.
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like they'd put up a fight...
You mean, like they did when they defeated the British Army and won the American War of Independence?
Re:French (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been living in Japan for 12 years now, and it's really amazing how perseveringly most English native speakers manage not to learn the local language beyond the level of a 4-year-old. It's amazing.
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
The truth of history is completely at odds with this, Americas success came from being geographically isolated from it all and more than a bit of international help when needed. This and the same double crossing ruthlessness that they accuse the rest of the world of has led to the USA of now, not some magical concoction of pixie dust available only to Americans. Just population and a smooth run for over 100 years. My country's the same, but we just call ourselves lucky.
It's nicer to believe myths than the truth, especially a truth that painfully goes against everything you 'know'.
Even the truth of what the French endured last century is quite painful to understand to a reasonable person. How many tens of millions dead and wounded, how viciously they fought in WW1, under conditions that make Iraq and Vietnam look like a stay at the Hilton in comparison. Where chemical weapons were used by both sides like regular munitions, fields were metres thick with the dead tens of thousands of men, who died to gain inches of land. Then 20 years later they have to do it all over again.
Then fifty years later three thousand out of two hundred million yanks die in the first attack on her home soil...well ever, and the biggest tantrum in the last fifty years is thrown and we're told over and over and over again how we should all feel so sorry and damn it, it's just the worst thing ever to happen to anyone! We listen for nearly a decade about how awful it all was, patting them on the head, saying "there there it's ok". All the while quietly waiting for them to grow a pair and grow the fuck up. How they have the audacity to put shit on the frogs who each and everyone lived through, experienced *personally* not just on the TV or paper, and fought valiantly in the most awful warfare in the history of this world...twice, when they carry on like such a bunch of drama queens about such a tiny incident in the history of the world is quite frankly embarrassing.
It's ok to have a bit of a dig and friendly rivalry, but the yanks seem to have started believing their bullshit. The comparison of an immature bratty teenager really is apt.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you'll find that it's part of the American culture to assume that they got where they are on their own, under their own steam by the sweat of their own brow, and that the rest of the world is a bunch of useless incompetent fools who blunder along blindly. Kind of the same attitude that teenagers have about their parents and grandparents. Not having the slightest clue what it was like for them and that they haven't actually gone through *anything* without someone holding their hand yet.
so when some american(i dont remember who, berfore iraq war) said "old europe" it was a expression of that "attitude". the problem is that this teenager has all those weapons and is in need of real good old fashion beating.
And like all teenagers they think they can fix all the worlds problems, almost cute
Re:French (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What is with all this France bashing from the US?
Americans (I am one) had no problem with the French I think until it came time to drop bombs on Lybia. The French denied fly-over rights. Now we are in a war with Iraq and the French haven't sent troops. I think both decisions by France were wise and justifiable. Now Americans blame the French for a big costly war when instead they should blame themselves for their own gullibility. Americans have a "with us or for terrorism" ideology, which is a silly ideology. You'll see some idiots quote stats about the
Re:English grass (Score:5, Insightful)
The *real* second wrong here is that the person had to go to court to get what they should have been able to buy in the first place.
Re:English grass (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't be obtuse. You surely know that consumer PCs without preinstalled Windows are about as common as new cars sold without engines. And please don't tell me that I'm wrong just because your notions of what the free market should provide don't match the reality of what the free market does provide.
I imagine that it is no easier to find a Windowless PC in France than in the US. In fact, it is damn near impossible for a consumer in the
Re:French (Score:4, Funny)
I believe you mean imperious, you colonial peon.
Re:French (Score:5, Funny)
Re:French (Score:5, Interesting)
Btw France fought tooth and nail in the first world war, so its not from that (and it certainly wasn't taken over, you might want to brush up on history a bit
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually Norway never surrendered. They moved their administration to London.
Yes and no. The royal family, the government, what little remained of the fleet and air force fled to England and never surrendered. All forces still in Norway surrendered in the capitulation agreement of June 10th, 1940. While there was obviously some resistance actions both from within Norway and from England, there was never any serious effort to liberate Norway by force since it was heavily occupied and remained so until the end of the war in 1945. Morally it made a big difference, but from a military
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
not to mention the Italians which switched sides in both world wars to avoid being the losing side.
Yea yeah yeah, blame us Italians again and again for being on the winning side. All is fair in war and love. And at playing football.
Besides, how the hell are we supposed to produce Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Maseratis? By playing a righteous and possibly loosing game? The world isn't waiting for "Italian character" or needing it for that matter. It just wants the insane and magnificent works of art. And yes, I count the cars produced by aforementioned companies as works of art.
"But how 'bout the sh
Re:French (Score:5, Funny)
I think Ferraris are commonly considered overcompensation...
Re:French (Score:4, Funny)
It
Again
Tomorrow
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
They might have been "gutless" but they didn't surrender. And while certain elements were certainly nazi-friendly (notably the king), a lot of Swedes were actively helping the Norwegian resistance in bringing people who needed to escape over the border. A lot of Norwegian resistance fighters who got close to being captured can thank them for getting a safe haven when the nazis started closing in on them in Norway.
Re:French (Score:5, Interesting)
A similar thing happened in the first few days American stwith the Netherlands. While the Dutch army was being ripped apart by the Germans, newspapers in the rest of the world were wildly speculating about fifth columns and the neutral Dutch's unwillingness to really put up a fight (in other words treason).
Even though everyone already knew that the Dutch would be no match for the Germans, public opinion was simply not prepared for a war in which a country could be overrun in a matter of days. Even a lackluster performance should have been able to hold off the enemy for "just a month" in people's minds (with WWI as a frame of reference) to give the French time to deploy.
After the Germans finished off the Dutch, just a few days later the French-Belgian-British defence also started collapsing, and the newspapers shifted their attention to perceived French cowardice and incompetent leadership (treason being a lesser explanation here, since the French weren't neutral).
Since the Germans didn't KO any more formidable powers than France after that, this analysis of events got stuck in people's minds.
The events of 1940 of course clearly show the superiority of Germany over their neighbours, but comparing US performance in later years to the losers of 1940 is really apples and oranges: in the spring of 1940 the US standing army was no larger and hardly better prepared than the mobilized Dutch or Belgian one, and in 1940 all of Europe had just started producing newly designed aircraft and tanks that would have given them the edge over the Germans given a year. It is just distance and a large body of water that makes the difference.
Learn from history (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Learn from history (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. Perhaps there should be a meme according to which the Jews are ridiculed for surrendering and letting themselves be herded off to camps, instead of nobly fighting to the death on their doorsteps as they ought to have? No, I didn't think so.
More to the point, all this WWI and WWII talk is just a retrospective justification. The real reason we hear Americans (and only Americans) making these bigoted comments is because Jacques Chirac used the UN veto against an attack on Iraq, thus making the subsequent invasion a war crime under the Nuremberg Principles. The fact that Chirac has now been proven quite right, with WMDs and suchlike now known to be a pack of lies, does not seem to embarrass the bigots at all.Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Recent animosity may have made it popular - but it was well known and in common use last century.
Not that it invalidates the rest of your argument - but the meme predates its use for retrospective justification.
Re:Learn from history (Score:4, Informative)
Yes I am for real, I would expect any Australian (or American for that matter - but I hate them just as much as any other race) to fight to the last drop of blood for their country.
Ok leave Hollywood version of war for a second...here is how it works in real life: Would it include that you would happily sacrifice women, new born babies, children, eldery people? Look at your girlfriend, your mother, and your children and imagine them dead...Not a nice quick death mind you...Imagine them almost wounded by sharpnels and agonizing for hours, or burn to death for the sake of your nation honnor.
Because that's what happen when the fight actually happens in your country, street fights, bombing cities and all. Look at the Rotterdam bombing. The Dutch dared to resist and their main city was litteraly flatenned (citizens included). Or Belgians franc tireur dared to act as snipers and then Nazis shot randomly 20 citizens for each killed soldier. War isn't about being a hero or anything, war is hell. So please before taking such a pompeous position think twice (and I guess you have never experienced war...Let alone facing Nazis SS divisions).
Re:French (Score:5, Interesting)
In Texas, we make all kinds of jokes about "Aggies" implying they are exceptionally stupid.
And then there are blond and dead baby jokes.
Your average french citizen is similar to people from other cultures.
I'm sure the french soldiers on the Magenot [sp] line would have fought very hard to defend france but they got driven around. The folks behind the line were not ready to fight germans with tanks with virtually no warning. To have something like the impact of a blitzkrieg war today, imagine that an enemy country could teleport their entire army inside your country.
However, just like an "aggie" joke or a "blonde" joke or a "dead baby" joke wouldn't make any sense with some other subject, the "french surrender" jokes wouldn't be funny with someone else now. I laughed at the "French military rifles for sale, dropped once" joke myself.
Re:French (Score:5, Informative)
I'm an Australian and I haven't heard that joke before. Perhaps more indicative is the fact that in two world wars French freedom stood for something that Australians were willing to die for. The French had no useful allies in the second world war in their time of need: the Americans didn't care and the British hardly had an army, let alone an army on the Continent. The disaster that befell France happened due to inaction of the democracies from 1935 onwards; the French army in 1940 can't take much of the blame, the situation was completely hopeless by then.
Re:French (Score:4, Insightful)
That said (going with Europe since Europe seems to be the chosen "enemy" in this little discussion), our country is darned near as big as the entire continent of Europe. Our individual states are the size of many countries there. International travel isn't going to be as common - we can travel all over and see all sorts of different cultures, ideals, and geographic features within our own country. As far as variations and ideas, and regional politics, your average American has a lot more to keep track of to follow only "their own country" compared to most citizens of European nations.
Trust me, for all the animosity you might think we harbor towards you guys, most Americans don't really care one way or another, and we pick on ourselves much more. Heck just watch and wait until a story about a Southern US state pops up. You'll see countless (just as stereotyped and unwarranted) jokes about incest or the IQ of people in that state.
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
And Germany (then Prussia) saved the world from France once. At the battle of Waterloo.
Not only did Blücher's troops play a huge part in it, Wellington's troops also had a big share of German troops.
So I guess if you dig around long enough then most of the major nations have once saved other nation's asses and at other times kicked other nation's asses. So what.
Re:French (Score:5, Insightful)
France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Informative)
The "French surrender a lot" meme is different - whatever its origin, and the Onion article that helped propagate it in the ~2000 timeframe, the US right wing started pushing it heavily during the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, because the French weren't jumping onto Bush's bandwagon, and it was a convenient way to get the rubes to attack anyone who wasn't cooperating, further drawing them in to the neo-con's frame of reference.
But it was especially important for Bush, because the obvious name to call the Iraqis who fought back against the US-led invasion would have been The "Iraqi Resistance", in parallel to the French Resistance of WWII, who everybody remembers at least vaguely as having been brave fighters against an overwhelming attacker, which was really really not the meme that Rove et al wanted to have around.
Re:France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, the French did not wanted to see their city destroyed by German tanks in the WW2. So the French goverment left the city and declared Paris an "Open City".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#New_German_offensive_and_the_fall_of_Paris [wikipedia.org]
Re:France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:France-Bashing and Overlord Memes (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yay.
Disclaimer: I have no association with them other than being a satisfied customer
Re:Just a thought. (Score:4, Informative)
Point 1) As offered by the VENDOR, the customer simply exercised their LEGAL right to not agree with the EULA supplied with laptop as they didn't want the OS but wanted the laptop.
Point 2) Well, thats just silly. Again, please read Point 1.
But I suppose having people exercise their rights to not be ripped off by what amounts to not much more than collusion is somehow against the constitution?
Bear in mind, quite often in principle the groups supporting people like this, are also the groups supporting things like, not being discriminated against with DNA testing, health insurance, etc, etc. But I guess you would see things like that as bad for business too?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, people exercising their rights is fine. No one should be ripped off. What I'm saying however, is if the vendor did not sell her the product the way she wanted it, why would she buy it just to sue? I'm more than certain that she had alternative choices.
Because she didn't have any alternative choices. Unless you're a techno-geek who knows how to build your own system from parts, or you're looking for a subnotebook like the XO or the EEE, it's incredibly difficult to find anything that doesn't come with
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So no, I'm reas
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On top of that, most sane courts in the EU laughs at contracts like the EULA.
Also you totally missed the point about the rights of the consumer in France, seeing your sig you are obviously from the US which is probably why you never heard of consumer rights.
And the last thing - most of us wouldn't mind if MS packed their backs and got the fudge out of EU.
Authoritarians (Score:3, Interesting)
US Marine > I suspect you must be an authoritarians, hence your tendency to side with authority (in this case, Microsoft), no matter how wrong, against the little guy, no matter how right.
That's the same mindset that make some people blame the victim in case of rape (look at what she was wearing!), prisoner abuse (if he was in prison he probably deserved it!), war crimes, and so on.
It's not your fault, just follow the link in my sig and educate yourself.
The EULA claims so (Score:3, Informative)
Big fucking surprise.
This thread is so full of fail, it's painful.