eBay's Plan to Force PayPal Rejected Down Under 181
Jm_aus writes "eBay's plan to force all users to use PayPal only has been rejected by Australia's competition regulator, the ACCC. This followed 650 submissions from eBay users as well as from Australian banks, other payment services, the Australian Reserve Bank, and (anonymously) Google, which aired a lot of dirty laundry about PayPal's unresponsiveness and failure to sign up to the local banking code of conduct. Apparently the public benefits from eBay's 'Bad Buyer Experience' elimination program are likely to be 'minimal.' There is a period for appeals."
Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Interesting)
As a buyer, I really want to use my credit card directly. PayPal, last time I used it, only covered a $200 return or so. I went straight through to my credit card company (which is linked to my PayPal account) and did a chargeback through them. PayPal sent me a nastigram saying if you keep that up, we'll cut you off.
Yeah, thanks but no thanks EBay.
You're in luck mate! (Score:5, Funny)
Just fill out the form at gday.ebay.mate/safecredit.asp and we'll get you started faster than a kangaroo can steal your vegemite sandwich.
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Informative)
I started a petition to get the law changed: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/3partyccs/ [pm.gov.uk]
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Interesting)
I did my homework, and that's why they have my credit card on the back end (which, thankfully, can tell them to get stuffed). You're right about linking to any account that keeps cash on hand in it. PayPal also has a long history of locking cash in its customer accounts. Really, they're just terrible to everybody involved. I don't believe I've bought anything with my account since that time.
From a seller's point of view: The EBay style of charging the seller commission, then charging the seller a percentage of PayPal too kinda gets me. Sure, they're treating them like the separate company they used to be, but come on. I suppose you get what you get for having something less than a true credit card merchant account (which costs).
As an aside rant, I'm sad that nobody does a cash discount anymore. I'd happily pay you on a 2% reduction to save you the 3% or whatever my CC company charges. Well, really to save myself 2%, but you'd profit as a vendor!
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Informative)
It's even disallowed to require the transaction to be over a certain value to accept payment via credit cards.
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit.
What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card.
It's a very subtle thing - it implies a cash discount (buy item for $1 via cash, or $3 via credit card), but it also isn't (if you buy 3 $1 items, it's $3).
What I want to know is if merchant accounts don't allow cash discounts, why don't they go after the tons of people who advertise prices, then say "price is after 3% cash discount"?
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That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit.
I know. But up here at least, it still happens.
What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card.
That would also be against the rules of the CC companies. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm quite literally talking about a hand-lettered sign on the register saying "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here, sorry for the inconvenience."
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I'm not sure how that changes things but it never is called a cash discount, perhaps that's just how the agreements (or state laws perhaps, in this case, since I see it in south carolina but not north carolina) are written.
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It looks like that's still the rule. Page 10 of the Visa Merchant Card Acceptance Guide [visa.com]
Always treat Visa transactions like any other transaction; that is, you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction. You may, however, offer a discount for cash transactions, provided that the offer is clearly disclosed to customers and the cash price is presented as a discount from the standard price charged for all other forms of payment.
And Page 9:
Always honor valid Visa cards in your acceptance category, regardless of the dollar amount of the purchase. Imposing minimum or maximum purchase amounts in order to accept a Visa card transaction is a violation of the Visa rules.
Mastercard regulations [mastercard.com] are similar:
5.9.3 Minimum/Maximum Transaction Amount Prohibited
A Merchant must not require, or indicate that it requires, a minimum or maximum Transaction amount to accept a valid and properly presented Card.
5.9.1 Discrimination
A Merchant must not engage in any acceptance practice that discriminates against or discourages the use of a Card in favor of any other acceptance brand.
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:4, Interesting)
In response to the Anonymous Coward, they are allowed to give cash discounts, but it has to be clearly stated to the customer before hand. A couple of the local computer stores here do this, but they have labels all over the store saying "All prices are 2% cash or debit discounted"
Source:
For the US (I'm in Canada, but I can't find the doc on visa.ca). See Page 9/10:
http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card_acceptance_guide.pdf [visa.com]
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I was once told I couldn't use my credit card for a small transaction (there was no posted minimum either). I wasn't sure at the time about these things so I didn't put up a fuss and paid cash. I checked into it, once I learned that they were violating the merchant rules I filed a complaint with my bank (the card issuer).
I received a reply a few days later that Visa was looking into it. Strangely enough, I have
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It's a bad rule that shouldn't exist, IMO, and serves only to force business owners to make a tradeoff: take a loss or have a sign there that gets a customer to buy a pack of gum?
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If they feel they can't profit on taking a CC transaction below a certain amount, they should either: Find a processing provider with better rates, not take CCs at all, or raise their prices such that larger purchases offset some of the cost.
Their profit margins aren't my concern, and it's silly to be expected to carry cash to make small purchases.
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The merchant was not entitled to charge you extra for the ability to pay by credit card - this is between the merchant and the merchant provider. YOU accepted the charge, knowing that it could lead to you being able to dispute the transaction with the card provider, which you did. Your liability was from the merchant in the tune of $50, not $1,050.
You do realize that nothing in the merchant agreement that disallowed them from doing suc
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Should stores lose money selling beer since per ounce there are more taxes on it than on milk, and that's also "just the cost of doing business" (or charge the same for milk and beer?)
What you've said makes no sense.
How CC and Merchant accounts really work.... (Score:2, Informative)
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Interesting. What do they think of the many gas stations that now have separate "credit" and "cash" prices for a gallon of gas?
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The main reason for doing this was to make the costs of buying by credit card transparent. Under the old system, credit card providers charged a fee to the merchant, but the fee was hidden from the consumer. The merchants had to absorb this cost by raising prices slightly across the board. That meant that the banks were effectively appl
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Vendors can (and often do) pass on the direct amount charged. This happens always at small markets and fairs (specifically the computer markets) but JB-HIFI (think the best buy of aus) charges an extra 1-2% for amex.
In the US they still stand, though.
Re:Right, because PayPal's better... (Score:5, Insightful)
To give an example of their total fee structure: after selling a small item for $30, you're only going to see around $24.50 for it after fees, and then you still have to pay to ship it.
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eBay is all about making the seller unable to get around eBay's exorbitant fees in any way possible. That is their entire basis for forcing PayPal.
eBay takes a fee on items sold. This fee is based on what the item sells for, not what it costs to ship it (buyer pays that).
Ofcourse if you pay through PayPal, PayPal will also take a fee, this time depending on the total amount (item price + shipping).
With eBay & PayPal being 2 hands on one belly, making PayPal compulsory is something I read as an attempt to double the standard eBay fees, and grab a bit of the shipping costs as well.
Not that I care much. Read carefully what you sign up for i
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Unhelpfully, Australia doesn't have Google Checkout yet.
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The ACCC does great work over here.
They have more common sense than every other government department in the world combined.
Can somebody explain? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can somebody explain? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Can somebody explain? (Score:5, Informative)
2. The french have actually charged eBay with both on a number of occasions.
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I'm just hoping that all countries everywhere enact similar rulings. Paypal gets on my damn nerves.
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eBay has done its homework on PayPal and knows it cannot turn nearly as huge of a profit as it does if PayPal has to comply with all of the banking regulations.
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FYI: You can start your own payment processing service like any business. Where you are going to get screwed, is when you need to connect to banks for electronic funds transfers. ACH rates are low, but getting into the network is not cheap or easy.
Payment processing is one of the monopolies absolutely no one cares about despite the broad harm to consumers. F*i*r*s*t D,a,t,a and V^i^s^a.
Re:Can somebody explain? (Score:5, Informative)
Because PayPal is not a bank. It doesn't offer loans, it doesn't pay interest, it doesn't have a required holdings (no loans = 100% cash on hand), etc, etc.
PayPal is as much of a bank as Chuck E. Cheese is a bank for handing out those game tokens and tickets. It's just a convenient way for you to give money to eBay before you spend it on an actual good (the appeal of which I have yet to understand.)
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Interesting - I wasn't aware that they do offer interest on deposits, which puts them more towards bank status.
However, storing money in an account is just delayed payment processing. And, they're not FDIC insured. They also don't offer any "bank" services, other than giving the money to another PayPal account.
If you could withdraw money again, I'm guessing it would also be a different situation. And, they still have to comply with Regulation E whether they're a bank or not.
So, to further obfuscate
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They also offer a Mastercard debit card that you can use to draw upon your PayPal balance when buying at brick-and-mortar stores and that you can even use at ATMs. Sounds like a "bank service" to me, and a way to withdraw your money without transferring it to a real bank.
I really have no earthly idea why they aren't class
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When did I sign this contract? When I was born? Am I agreeing to this contract every second (since birth) that I do not quit my job, take all of my property on a plane, and spend my life savings moving to another country? Is that how the contract works in a "democratic society"? If so, where is this explanation written down, and how does it justify the violation of everyone's natural rights a
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Am I agreeing to this contract every second (since birth) that I do not quit my job, take all of my property on a plane, and spend my life savings moving to another country?
Basically, yes. The purpose of a social contract (in a grossly over-simplified way) is that every member of the society agrees to it, which greatly lessens the threat of arbitrary violence. If you don't wish to agree to a social contract, you're free to leave the society; if you break the contract, society can remove you by force (e.g. put you in prison).
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Also, my purpose here is not to simply say "I don't like it" and leave, but to get discussion going that can eventually lead to candidates being elected who would rather uphold rights than violate them, eventually overturning the laws that do violate our rights.
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And you did not answer the two conditional questions I posed immediately after that sentence you quoted.
Assuming the two questions you mean are:
1) Where is it written down? Wikipedia's article [wikipedia.org] has decent information about the general concept, and you can probably find some books from the original philosophers in your local library.
2) How does it justify everyone's natural rights being violated? Well, like I said, the purpose of a social contract is that you give up certain natural rights (e.g. the natural right to kill someone and take their stuff) in exchange for protection from other people exercisin
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There is no such right. Read up on Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] as well, if you'd like.
I'm perfectly happy giving up my right to take someone's stuff"
You don't have such a right. See above.
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According to Thomas Hobbes and canonical theory, the essence is as follows: Without society, we would live in a state of nature, where we each have unlimited natural freedoms. The downside of this general autonomy is that it includes the "right to all things" and thus the freedom to harm all who threaten one's own self-preservation; there are no positive rights, only laws of nature and an endless "war of all against all" (Bellum omnium contra omnes, Hobbes 1651). In other words, anyone in the state of nature can do anything he likes; but this also means that anyone can do anything he likes to anyone else.
You're using a different definition of "natural right" than I am. I'm talking about natural rights being the same behavioral freedom that animals in nature have, while you're talking more about what I would usually call human rights (which I completely support, of course). Since there is no single definition, though, neither one of us is really wrong.
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I always wonder how come the government's motives always seem to be questioned when corporations never are, despite infringing on people's rights and liberties just as much. You can't even say corporations don't have their own army - many of them do. Some of them are the army.
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If you don't like Paypal's terms, don't agree to them. It's that simple.
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What is the reasoning behind this claim?
"Immunization from diseases killing you at age 1, a decent education, roads / electricity / clean water.
These things can all be provided by private industry without rights violations, and competition would work to lower costs while giving customers more of what they want.
"You are basically taking your ball and going home while keeping every benefit that society has given you for your own su
And furthermore... (Score:5, Funny)
*ahem*
"Like fuck you will"
That was an extract from the actual brief, word for word, honest
Paypal sucks blah blah (Score:3, Interesting)
And the only way to be able to do that is to sign up for an account where they take a percentage of all of my transactions.
How does that commercial go? "It's my money and I want it now!"
But seriously, I'm tired of paypal, I just wish it would go the way of the dinosaurs because it's such a frustrating site to use to transfer funds.
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Merchant Visa/MC accounts with your bank will charge fees too. How do you think they make their money?
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It's very frustrating to cancel a transaction, send an email to the person telling them I can't accept it and to send me the money through their checking account instead. It's a process that shouldn't have to happen. If I don't have the business premier account or whatever it's called, then people shouldn't be able to initiate a credit card transaction.
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Inbound yeah, but not outbound... (Score:2, Interesting)
OTOH, the down side is that they extract fees that would make a bank or credit union blush for every transaction. Also, someone governmental needs to take a serious look at forcing them to be regulated and to follow the same rules as a real bank.
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Don't bother (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, I love PayPal (Score:3, Interesting)
Amazon accepts CC (Score:2)
Other items can also be added. There is currently two Commodore 64 systems for sale for $235. Need a PalmOne m100 Handheld 9 Used & new from $11.89.
What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON (Score:5, Informative)
They still sided with him. However, I knew this was a possibility and I moved the money out of paypal, and blocked them from charging me back through my bank who happily sided with me.
About 6 months later I joined the lawsuit, and provided all of the evidence to them for exhibits. If you didn't know we won... and won big. Not happy with the default settlement offering I filed for the full settlement and received my check a few months later. I framed it... and I will NEVER do business with Paypal again.
I don't care if Ebay bought them. They do not follow banking guidelines, they consistently have proven themselves untrustworthy and generally don't abide by the law OR their own policies.
If Ebay goes to Paypal only, I think they'll soon realize the size of the mistake they will make when other auction sites blow past them at 90mph!
Birds of a feather.... (Score:3, Informative)
I refuse to EVER give any more money to PayPal or EBay again.
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The part I like the best about a site like that is that you can view the item before buying it. Most of the time you meet up and pick up so can see the item and run away if you want. Cuts down on counterfits and scams. Typically you can't use credit cards but seriously it's where
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And since eBay owns 33% of CL, that ain't ever going to happen.
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CL does not get involved nor does it try to authenticate who you are buying from, hence it stays local. Its a different niche, Craig Newmark has no intention of taking on ebay or becomming a megacorp.
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Ebay is Dead to Me, Paypal is Evil (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, I never liked Paypal. As far as I could tell its sole purpose was to make it easier for sellers to scam buyers, since the only protection given to buyers is something on the order of $100. I know some people who bought Apple laptops on eBay, never received them, but were unable to get all of their ~$2000 back. If it happened to me, I'd do what another poster said today and stop the payment to Paypal from my credit card, but if it were me I wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place.
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1: ebay is massive, this means that the chance of someone on the system having the item is pretty damn high.
2: ebay/paypal is pretty friendly to international transactions. I can use my british ebay/paypal account to bid on auctions anywhere in the world with no hassle (sometimes I do have to contact the seller to ask for postage rates but a lot of the time sellers post a list that co
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is to buy/sell used computer parts, which I can do elsewhere without the risk or hassle.
You wouldn't happen to know of a site where I can do that from the UK?
In the last two months I have bought almost $200 worth of used computer parts off Ebay, none of them have worked as described and getting refunds and returns are proving such a massive headache that I'm thinking of giving up and swallowing the losses.
Needless to say, I have come to hate doing any business on Ebay/Paypal, and would love to have an alternative.
I'm lucky, I guess, in that I'm used to living in Silicon Valley, where Craigslist is larely populated with tech stuff.
Verfied Accounts (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Verfied Accounts (Score:4, Interesting)
Once you add bank to an existing account, it opts to directly withdraw from the bank rather than credit card, you CAN'T make the credit card default.
In Australia, this means I get charged bank fees for using my regular bank account, (maximum 5 transactions a month free, than small but annoying fees)
The credit card obviously has no fees - they are happy with the interest you pay as a dipshit consumer in debt (which I'm not)
Paypal have done this so that people can't do ccard chargebacks as easily.
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I wonder how often they let you re-verify an account. Seeing as how they deposit several cents into your account totally free as part of the verification process... I smell an untapped profit opportunity! :)
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Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife (Score:5, Informative)
The previous time I posted this on
In fairness to Paypal, our experience was shortly after it was purchased by EBay, so probably EBay cleaned it up some since then.
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Is this issue PayPal or Ebay? (Score:2, Informative)
What actually needs to happen is the ability to have a "one click" report item as dodgy. Ebay gains too much from providing a lax vetting process to ever get serious about it.
When governments actually get serious about this
Never been burnt, yet *knock on Woody Allen* (Score:4, Interesting)
I moved back in 2003. That prompted me to move to a new bank as well. I was fortunate enough to have put my old bank account into Paypal when I verified my account. When I moved I sure as hell didn't update the info. It remained that way until this Spring when I accidentally forgot to change the payment method from PayPal's default of a bank account to a CC. They realized that my account was closed at that time and unverified my PP account. I had to give them my new bank account info. I hated to do it but I had to complete the purchase. I'm seriously considering signing up for a new account somewhere, using it for 6 months and then closing it just so I can get back to the way it was.
It's amazing that I've never actually gotten burnt considering how much I've used PP. The vast majority of the equipment I buy is networking gear. I'm pretty careful who I buy from. If I have any feeling that it's not a good seller I move on. I won't buy from anyone on the West coast (too much counterfeit Cisco hardware comes from China into the West coast). I'll even read all the seller's reviews and go back through their past auctions and the buyers to see if it looks legit. I guess being careful pays off. I'm definitely not a PP or eBay shill. I lost a fair bit of money in eBay stock and I think the wannabe bank PayPal should rot in litigation hell, but I never have been burnt.
Already too late for me (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to use eBay and Paypal quite a bit and for the most part I've had good experiences. For quite a while I kept a significant amount of money (nearly $10,000) in my Paypal money market account, earning a fairly decent interest rate (one of the higher rates I could find at the time). I was aware that Paypal was not FDIC insured but I was fairly confident that Paypal wouldn't collapse. I had one eBay purchase where Paypal backed me up and I got a refund (except for shipping). I really didn't have any serious complaints.
After hearing the news about eBay trying to force the use of Paypal, I had to rethink my position. I was concerned that such a decision would negatively impact their business and made me less secure in keeping my money there. More importantly, I felt I could no longer "invest" in the Paypal business model. Their interest rates had also been dropping so I started looking around at bank accounts. Surprisingly (or maybe not so, in hindsight) I found one that had a better interest rate and transferred my money. Paypal was more convenient and I'm sorry to miss out on that, but Paypal has lost my business (over $10,000 worth) and I'm not going back now.
So, what is the alternative? (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe an alternative to eBay is needed. Amazon is okay for books and music, but what about other stuff? eBay actually seems like quite a good way to sell some stuff, if it just wasn't for PayPal.
Extortionate fee system (Score:3, Informative)
So basically they can charge a lot of money just to make one person's account balance go down and another go up - that's never happened when I've done a bank transfer within the UK.
Daylight fucking robbery.
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Re:elimination program? (Score:5, Interesting)
If my personal experience is any indication, it's the process whereby upon reporting being victimised by an eBay "power seller" eBay threatens to find you guilty of being a "bad buyer" and threatens to place sanctions on your eBay and Paypal accounts unless you pay up. The workaround I found was to change all my eBay user info to the crooked seller's email address and a fictitious physical address and I canceled my paypal account.
It probably helped that I did this within an hour of eBay finding in favor of the dishonest seller (item was a Chinese counterfeit and did not function properly, also they attempted to charge for two items when I only bought one item). This was about three months ago, I've not heard anything about the matter since. Obviously, eBay lost me as a customer.