Legal Troubles Continue To Mount For Diebold 115
dstates writes "The State of Maryland has filed a $8.5M claim against Premier Election Systems (previously known as Diebold), joining Ohio in seeking damages from the company. The claim alleges that election officials were forced to spend millions of dollars to address multiple security flaws in the machines. Previously, Diebold paid millions to settle a California lawsuit over security issues in their machines. The dispute comes as Maryland and Virginia prepare to scrap the touch screen electronic voting systems they bought after the 2000 presidential election. California, Florida, New Mexico, and Iowa have already switched to optical scanners, and voters in Pennsylvania are suing to prevent the use of paperless electronic voting systems in their state. Meanwhile, Artifex Software is suing Diebold for violations of the GPL covering the Ghostscript software technology used in the proprietary voting machines."
Ho! Ho! Ho! (Score:5, Funny)
Man, it must really be xmas! LOL!
<insert "Insensitive clod!" comment> (Score:2, Funny)
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You mean XF86-mas, or X.org-mas?
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All wonderful jokes, but Xmas (in my mind at least) is the consumerism day, while Christmas represents the true, original spirit of the holiday, before corporations got their grubby little paws on everything.
The X stands for chi, the Greek letter and first letter in the Greek word Christ. Xmas is simply an abbreviation for Christmas.
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Re: corporations (Score:1)
Funny or insightful?
too bad I don't have any mod points today.
Re: what's in a name? (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand, xmas might sound more consumerist precisely because the filthy corporations tried to distance themselves from Christ, both to persuade Christians to think more about shopping and to include, er, heathens in the consumerist orgy.
Of course, Christ never had anything to do with Christmas anyway. He was probably born in August-ish if he existed at all, and Christmas was just the Catholics' attempt to usurp yet another pagan holiday that had been around ever since people knew what a solstice was. So perhaps "Xmas" is a (slightly) better thing anyway.
Happy Newtonmas, everyone!
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Of course Jesus existed! His existence is as much a matter of historical record as, say, Pontus Pilate's. It's whether he supernaturally rose from the dead (etc.) that's under dispute.
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Actually, his existence is also under dispute, which must be quite amusing to Him if the Christians are right after all. Your favourite search engine will direct you to quite a few people disputing it, with varying degrees of eloquency and scholarliness.
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Do the same people also deny the existence of Julius Caesar?
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while Christmas represents the true, original spirit of the holiday
You mean this? [wikipedia.org]
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Oops. You truly are clueless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3_xFb1sWKU [youtube.com]
Did I mention Mike Connell, Rove's computer guru, subpoenaed in election, is now dead?
No we do not need those dog crap machines by the crappy company Diebold (who changed their name in an effort to obfuscate) rolled out to the rest of the nation.
What we DO NEED is to OUTLAW all electronics in our elections. PERIOD!!!
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You've got it backwards.
Christmas is when you're stuck with that big aunt that won't stop pinching your cheeks, while Xmas is the part where you get to start thrashing down hills on your new sports equipment.
(Alternatively, Xmas is when Santa starts rappelling down the chimney, chugging Mountain Dew as he delivers presents)
Re: i was thinking Ho Ho Ho (Score:1)
Merry X-ed-Mas. Maybe, staring at the weight of Mounting OlympBUST, diebold might GET OUT OF THE VOTE and just DIE BOLD...
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We could celebrate with a new newsgroup, alt.die.bold.die
Hopefully, when it comes time to nail them to the wall, they'll use Wilson's Nails [nobeliefs.com].
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Live Free and Die Bolder?
whats the point anymore? (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek [youtube.com]
Re:whats the point anymore? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, that's the point exactly. People expect the opportunity to select their corrupt politician of choice. Anything that interferes and might allow the wrong corrupt politician to get into power is unacceptable.
Re:whats the point anymore? (Score:4, Funny)
It's the illusion of democracy that keeps me going at night.
I believe it was said best here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF5Kdm4Eu6w [youtube.com]
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Quite. That's the whole point of democracy - to replace one corrupt politician with another. Basically the system limits the amount of damage any one person can do, and the damage that is done heals itself when the next corrupt shithead is in power.
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Yeah, but as long as people fight over whether the process of choosing the crook is done correctly, they don't fight over whether it might be a better idea to kick all the crooks in the nuts.
!Paperless (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:!Paperless (Score:5, Insightful)
The truth is that while paperless may sound sexy it is not really practical.
The truth is that Diebold's problems have nothing to do with the paper or paperless issue, and everything to do with incompetent design and execution. Which is all the more galling considering the relative straight-forwardness of the programming task. A corrupt or inaccurate paper audit trail would be just as useful as no audit trail at all, and arguably more harmful.
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I'm sorry, but if you think this is a straightforward task, you are making the same mistake Diebold did. Programming is just one minor part of the whole system they need to implement.
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I'm sorry, but if you think this is a straightforward task, you are making the same mistake Diebold did. Programming is just one minor part of the whole system they need to implement.
Yes, and it's this "one minor part" that Diebold fucked up. My original comment stands.
Re:!Paperless (Score:4, Insightful)
Well not exactly. Diebold managed to screw up several parts of the system.
The software
The lousy hardware locks
The poor update process
Just to name three off the top of my head before my second cup of coffee. Makes one wonder about Hanlon's razor. I guess you gotta be good at something.
Re:!Paperless (Score:5, Informative)
The programming itself is quite straight-forward but the system design is subtle due to the need for verifiability at every step, not just for experts, but so that interested laymen can at least grasp the verifiability in overview.
The Diebold systems fail on all counts INCLUDING the straight-forward programming.
They also managed to fail at version control, source audit and binary certification by loading unapproved patches onto unknown binary versions the night before an election while refusing to reveal the source even to government auditors.
The fact that they have anti-virus software on them (which has caused at least one problem) shows that they REALLY didn't design it right. A device like a voting machine should only accept new executable code through a JTAG or similar port locked safely inside the case. That means that Windows was a poor choice for an underlying OS. Windows just does far too many things without explicit commands and apparently can't be configured not to. It's source is also a problem to audit by anyone.
More proper options would have been programming on the bare metal or a seriously stripped down Linux or *BSD. Not so much for size but to simplify auditing and testing.
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Here in LA County, the reader/verifiers used in the InkaVote system run Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Unfortunately the Sequoia units used to do the count that matters are all closed-source pieces of shit. At least we have one thing to be happy about: according to LA County election law, the paper ballot is the vote of record. Any recounts are done by humans looking at a key, looking at a ballot, and then determining voter intent for each paper ballot.
Someone needs to build an OCR reader capable of reading Inka
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That is good that the paper ballot is the vote of record. It's auditable and most people (especially anyone who has been in school in the last 30 or 40 years) understand the principle of optical scan.
Given the high cost of the proprietary systems, I t might be cheaper for a few local governments to go in on a project together to produce a free implementation. Perhaps a hybrid approach where the software is openly developed and then a particular cut is audited fully.
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Yet another "insightfull" slashdotter that doesn't get it. The issue is TRUST and you can not simply code your way around it.
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So a broken system thats trusted is useful?
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Yes. You know it's broken, you know how it's broken, and you probably know who broke it. With an auditless election you cannot logically know any of these things beyond a reasonable doubt.
Do you understand the normal paper counting process and why it is logicaly possible to trust it? Do you understand why it is logicaly impossible to trust a computer that the opposition cannot audit? Paper is not perfect, neither is democracy come to think of it but both ar
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Ah... trust is being used in two different ways here. I was thinking more like the American people trust Diebold machines.
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Hah. Yes, but I would call that kind of trust "blind faith". The kind of trust I am on about can be granted using a rational argument.
The simplistic version of paper counting is that all candidates get to supply X unpaid counters, the box is emptied on a table and the counters start counting. When they have all been counted each counter hands his pile to the guy next to him and so on around the table. Each counter then checks the co
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You may be under the impression that is common today that technology can improve everything and make life generally better. Mmmm... technology... what was I saying again?
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The truth is, you can't have secret ballots and still have an election that isn't subverted.
Here's my take on how to do a proper paperless democracy:
Everyone gets a personal digital recorder that acts as a "testament", and when they cast their votes, the device preserves a copy as evidence.
Votes are public information, not secret.
We establish two networks for the casting of votes. One secure wired network that carries votes to a centralized point for counting, and one citizens mesh network that logs votes
Re:!Paperless (Score:4, Insightful)
Won't work. Once the vote is public information, people can be bought/pressured to change their vote.
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I was sort of thinking that a properly working democracy could REPLACE money. Which is likely to be rather important, considering the rate at which it's being devalued. As for being pressured, there's nothing wrong with that, that's how politics are supposed to work. Intimidation, that's a problem, but it's a problem that can be dealt with just like any other physical violence, it's not like the nature of physical crime changes when you bring politics into the equation.
The Roman empire was built on the f
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people can be bought/pressured to change their vote.
we currently allow absentee/mail in ballots which have the same feature. I think a few minor tweaks like having independently programed/run servers. And having just 1-2% of the total voters who are selected be trusted voters (randomly changed each election) some from each pole who get to know their voter ID (everyone else can't verify their vote)
Basically by having a general insignificant number able to be pressured, but still a significant enough amount to verify the system, We could have everyones votes
It's not about technology (Score:3, Insightful)
Paperless shouldn't even be attempted.
This is the system used to elect leaders. Trillions of dollars and millions lives are affected by election results.
Whatever system you choose must have full audit capabilities ... and that means paper.
The only reason for using electronics is to get faster results to those with short attention spans.
Doesn't matter. (Score:4, Funny)
They'll probably get a bailout for their efforts too.
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Referendum (Score:2, Funny)
Weird... (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a name for this (Score:2)
It's called tying up loose ends [slashdot.org].
--MarkusQ
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Write "Told you so." on a letter. Include a copy of your previous correspondence. Send it in. Might make you feel good for a minute or two.
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Then take a picture of it, put it on a blog, post it to a high traffic site like slashdot, include digg and fark, and wait for a reply and post that too.
Remind me... (Score:1)
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Much like most government programs...it's a place to throw other peoples' money so that certain interests can keep some of it for themselves. All the while, the elected "representative" that was responsible scores points with said interest so that they'll have a fallback when they're finally voted out of office.
only 8.5 mil (Score:2)
8.5 million is a small price to pay for that level of control.
The rich got what they want! (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, the crap that kept the Bush administration in office has paid off.
Does anyone believe that the 2000 election was a legitimate Bush win? Does anyone believe that Diebold DIDN'T tamper with the machines? Now that bush is leaving office, we find that the machines are insecure and aren't going to be used?
Now, *all* of the wealthy Bush supporters made HUGE amounts of money under Bush. The bailout was basically a theft of $700B (and more to come) from the U.S. treasury for the very people that have been getting rich 8 years. Never in the history of man-kind has so much relative wealth been given to so few. How did this happen?
I can't think of a single policy of this administration that was designed NOT to remove money from the middle class and transfer it into the hands of the more wealthy. Immigration, trade, health care, intellectual property, and even the department of the interior and the CPB have all been centered around either allowing corporations to make money at the expense of the people, or out-right giving money to large corporations directly.
Now, we, the regular people, call us middle class, working poor, unemployed engineers, have to somehow rebuild the economy after its departure.
I'm 45 years old. I am ill at what I've seen happen to my country. It is a rush to the bottom. If we are not a third world nation already, we will be. Its disgusting.
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Actually I saw a report on Florida's ballot irregularities. There is a case to be made that the paper ballots were manipulated - different grade paper was used which was not approved for use in the machines. There was more, but given the whole hanging chad debacle, it seems that people intentionally wanted to have problems in FL. Then all you have to do is make sure that counties with a small democratic bias get the bad ballots.
If you want to commit fraud, you don't need a computer. Given that FL is a huge
then don't rant - act (Score:1, Insightful)
As a lone rant it won't make a difference, but as a group you can change what's happening in Washington. Get rid of the aspects of the US that clearly go against your espoused morals, including but not limited to Guantanamo Bay (the weakest excuse ever to perpetrate atrocities), move towards the principles of the Constitution once more and go after ANYONE who tries to get away with anything dodgy. INSIST on transparency, also from all the agencies. You may have to bury a bad past, but that's no excuse fo
Re:then don't rant - act (Score:5, Insightful)
then don't rant - act
Think I haven't? Short of taking up arms against my country, I've done all the legal things I can. The tide is turning, I think, but it takes a long time to wake up the U.S.A.
I honestly believe that the vast majority of Americans are motivated less by money and more by "doing the right thing." The problems is that "the right thing to do" has been purposefully obfuscated by the bastards in power. By using christiantity and the talking heads of talk radio, propaganda minister of the Bush administration, Karl Rove, has successfully turned America in against itself. Dividing families and groups against each other over simplistic moral debates, while completely drowning the substantive discussions about what is truly best for the country.
All this so that they can rob the country of its wealth and make themselves rich at the same time.
I'll say here and now, Bush and Cheney and everyone in their administration have been traitors to the U.S.A.
Signed, patriotic American!!
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"Does anyone believe that the 2000 election was a legitimate Bush win?"
As I recall, that was all about the poor layout and handling of paper ballots ("butterfly ballots"). Diebold's machines were a reaction to that (over-reaction, IMO).
"...long anti-bush rant..."
Who cares? I know that it's fun to bash Bush, but geez, let's stick to bashing diebold.
Anyways, I disagree entirely that this has anything to do with Bush. In MD, the republicans are mostly a non-factor, and we got our stupid machines just like ot
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Who cares? I know that it's fun to bash Bush, but geez, let's stick to bashing diebold.
It is Diebold in Ohio that enabled the shrub to get re-elected.
For the record, I have no problem with computerized entry machines, but the final output that I turn-in needs to be easily readable paper that is counted by human eyes at some point in the process, IMO.
One of my first jobs, right out of high school, was as a bank teller. Right around the time of the introduction of the ATM in the late 70s/early 80s.
More or les
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It's funny, but you know, its people like you that have let the people like Bush get away with what they have.
Enjoy what you've been arguing for, because we'll be a long time digging out.
Christmas (Score:1)
Santa knows who's been naughty....
interpretation of the GPL? (Score:2)
Re the supposed GPL violation, the mailing list [ghostscript.com] post linked to from the article doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
This seems nutty to me. As far as I understand, there's never been any prohibition on simply loading GPL software onto a machine that has a proprietary OS and other proprietary apps.
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What I'm saying is that their "integrated component" idea doesn't make any sense. The GPL doesn't anything about "integrated components." This [gnu.org] FAQ entry may be relevant. What's clearly not allowed is linking non-GPL code to GPL'd code. All Diebold did was to put both GPL'd and non-GPL'd software on a special-purpose Windows machine, and sell the Windows machine.
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one post? (Score:2)
You expect to make sense out of this from just one post in the middle of the conversation?
I can make sense of that post, I suppose, because I've gone through the GPL and related stuff for myself, to determine whether I wanted to use a free software or open software license, whether I wanted to use an existing one or roll my own, etc. (I end up using different licenses for different projects.)
So I suggest you do more research of the licenses themselves, and read more of the threads there, for starters.
In the
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While we are on the subject of licences, do you have any idea why so many programming library writers choose GPL instead of LGPL for there library ?
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That's the point where people start taking offense at RMS. He encourages that -- pressure politics.
I am not particularly offended. The author did not have to choose to publish his or her code, and society benefits more from the publishing, even if direct use requires reciprocation.
Moreover, the GPL has a lot in common with the original purpose of patents and copyrights. Lots of people think software needs something separate from either copyright or patent, and there it is: copyleft. Share, but retain an imp
Playing Politics (Score:2)
Diebold was doomed as soon as their management started openly playing politics. That is just bad policy for a company that is supposed to deliver the pretense of accurate electoral results.
(the president of Diebold publicly said he'd do everything in his power to get George Bush elected president)
I suspect the world will move towards open source voting systems as the only way to use modern technologies in the voting process and still have a shot at accurate results.
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Well, he said that at a private fund-raiser for George W. Bush. Just as bad though.
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Duh, not really. I thoguht he said that at the hearing in front of the bipartisan committee that decided whether or not to accept the machines...
If you're in the business of selling ANYTHING to the government that MIGHT possibly affect the outcome of elections, even if you're just selling the damn pencils, you have no official political view. Period. At least if you're smart. The moment you even so much as mention that you might have a political view, you offer the other side ammo against your machines.
(not
You could tell by the name... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:You could tell by the name... (Score:4, Funny)
You mean like in Live Free or Diebold? I see what you mean.
kinda like rts008 said... (Score:2)
as (s)he said over here [slashdot.org], this made my holiday a very happy one indeed.
Merry War on Christmas, everybody!
OT: mod's, please ignore! (Score:2)
Just for the record, I'm a he. (despite the /. basement dweller's manboobs)
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no men on internet.
Stephen Heller (Score:4, Interesting)
I feel sorry for Stephen Heller, the whistleblower who was charged with three felonies for revealing Diebold's legal problems, in Feb 2004.
Re:Stephen Heller (Score:5, Interesting)
Mr. Heller pled guilty to a felony, per his legal fund website. If ever a case SCREAMED OUT for a pardon. This is it!! Mr. Heller committed a crime and was properly convicted for it, but the mitigating circumstance are outstanding. Cases like this are why State and Federal Constitutions provide the pardoning power. I sure hope for the best for this guy.
Bleed 'em dry! (Score:2)
I'm usually not someone who sides with people trying to drain a company through legal means, but in this case I'm willing to make an exception. Bleed them. Make them go bankrupt. If they go under, that's the last we'll see of EVoting, because nobody would willingly touch it again with a ten foot pole.
Make them die.
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I'm usually not someone who sides with people trying to drain a company through legal means, but in this case I'm willing to make an exception. Bleed them. Make them go bankrupt. If they go under, that's the last we'll see of EVoting, because nobody would willingly touch it again with a ten foot pole.
Bah, if there's any proof that they tampered with election results, surely that should be grounds for a criminal case, not a civil one?
Heck, as far as I'm concerned screwing with the democratic process amounts