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Sam Ramji, Microsoft's Open Source Guru, Is Moving On 155

Posted by Soulskill from the onward-and-upward dept.
barking_at_airplanes writes "Some called him crazy a few years ago when he joined Microsoft to run the Open Source Software Lab, but Sam Ramji endured and made real differences to how Microsoft treats open source and how open source people view Microsoft. Ramji is now heading back to Silicon Valley to join a cloud computing startup. Sam comments in his announcement: '46 months later, I am amazed at the changes that have occurred for the company, for the team I belonged to, and the sentiments of the industry.' It's a statement which, 46 months ago, few Slashdotters would have thought could come true! With Sam leaving, can Microsoft's positive momentum into open source continue successfully? Bill Hilf says they're 'actively seeking someone to fill Sam's shoes.'"
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Sam Ramji, Microsoft's Open Source Guru, Is Moving On More

Sam Ramji, Microsoft's Open Source Guru, Is Moving On

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  • I know! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lord Byron II ( 671689 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:19AM (#29397937)

    Hire Stallman!

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by NoYob ( 1630681 )
      I just had this image of Stallman and Ballmer in a room together.

      Then, I had this thought of them becoming the best of buds and ruling the World.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by FunPika ( 1551249 )
        Even scarier would be Stallman, Ballmer, Gates, Jobs, and Torvalds all together in the same room planning to take over the world...

        We would all be screwed.

        • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

          by Norsefire ( 1494323 ) * on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:52AM (#29398195) Journal
          Stallman: We must only use free-software, by my definition
          Ballmer/Gates: We must use only Microsoft products
          Jobs: I don't care what we use but it has to look cool and have shiny logos on it
          Torvalds: I don't care as long as it does one thing and does it well.

          Yeah ... I wouldn't be too worried.

          • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

            by aetherworld ( 970863 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @11:36AM (#29398519) Homepage
            Wait... so we would get free Microsoft products that look cool and only do one thing, but they do it well? Can we please lock those guys up in a room already until they come up with that idea?

            • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

              by K. S. Kyosuke ( 729550 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @01:32PM (#29399471)

              Wait... so we would get free Microsoft products that look cool and only do one thing, but they do it well? Can we please lock those guys up in a room already until they come up with that idea?

              They have already written FDISK decades ago...

            • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

              by jonadab ( 583620 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @06:18PM (#29401305) Homepage Journal
              You don't want to put Jobs and Stallman in a room together, trust me. Gates and Stallman would probably just give eachother the cold shoulder (what would they have to say to one another, after all?), but Jobs would probably do something to get Stallman riled. Could get messy.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by CAIMLAS ( 41445 )

              I don't think that'd work. They'd run out of food and we'd come back a week later to find broken chairs laying around the room, Jobs dead in a corner from blunt impact, Balmer self-hung in the middle of the room, with Torvalds and Stallman arguing about who gets the last morsels of Balmer's legs.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by i.of.the.storm ( 907783 )
            Can you really attribute the Unix philosophy to Torvalds? I mean, the fact that Linux started as a Unix clone kind of goes against attributing that to Linus.

            • He certianly did not create it, but he does understand it (see git).

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by harlows_monkeys ( 106428 )

          Even scarier would be Stallman, Ballmer, Gates, Jobs, and Torvalds all together in the same room planning to take over the world...

          I'd rather see them in a room playing D&D. That would be interesting.

        • Even scarier would be Stallman, Ballmer, Gates, Jobs, and Torvalds all together in the same room planning to take over the world... We would all be screwed.

          Ballmer: "Gee Bill, what do you want to do tonight?"
          Gates: "The same thing we do every night, Balmy - try to take over the world!"

      • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

        by Timosch ( 1212482 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @11:05AM (#29398291)

        I just had this image of Stallman and Ballmer in a room together.

        Uhm, the chairs would propably get caught in Stallman's beard.

        • I swear there's a Chuck Norris joke in there somewhere...

          • I swear there's a Chuck Norris joke in there somewhere...

            You mean something like.. "Underneath Chuck Norris's beard is another fist, but underneath RMS's beard is the source code for Hurd?"

      • That's funny, because as soon as you mentioned Stallman and Ballmer in a room together the only thing I could envision happening is some kind of antimatter detonation.

        At least the world will be rid of both their odious presences. ;)

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by erebus24 ( 632942 )
        I smell a sitcom!

    • Re:I know! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Errtu76 ( 776778 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:40AM (#29398087) Journal

      Better yet, have Microsoft 'ask Slashdot'. I'm sure there'll be lots of people with ideas on how to continue/improve things.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by moon3 ( 1530265 )
      And RMS just helicoptered from his grave.

    • Bull, meet china shop!

  • Really? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kubrick ( 27291 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:23AM (#29397973)

    Sam Ramji... made real differences to how Microsoft treats open source and how open source people view Microsoft.

    [Citation needed]

    • Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by minsk ( 805035 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:46AM (#29398141)

      I believe it.

      A few years ago, Microsoft was ignoring Free Software and Open Source. Now Microsoft has moved onto misleading branding, false marketing, patent threats, and courting developers with what traditionally turned out to be empty promises.

      So, the same way they treat other competition.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Skim123 ( 3322 )

      To be fair, Microsoft has made a big push into opening their source code and helping spearhead community-led projects. Two examples:

      Granted, the first one isn't a true open source project in that they don't accept patches from the community, but I think that if you compare today's Microsoft and their culture toward sharing source code with the community is q

      • Don't forget their involvement with JQuery.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by fyrewulff ( 702920 )

        Granted, the first one isn't a true open source project in that they don't accept patches from the community

        There's nothing about open source that says that the original maintainers have to accept patches from outside the initial group.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Skim123 ( 3322 )

          Granted, the first one isn't a true open source project in that they don't accept patches from the community

          There's nothing about open source that says that the original maintainers have to accept patches from outside the initial group.

          True. Although I prefer Jeff Atwood's definition of open source [codinghorror.com]:

          • The project must use an OSI approved license
          • The project must use a commonly available method of public source control
          • The project must provide public evidence that it accepts and encourages code contributions from the outside world.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by unity ( 1740 )
        Agreed, the fact that the .net framework source is available nowadays is a HUGE change, a positive change.

    • That was nearly my exact thought. (Of course a citation — just as on Wikipedia — actually means nothing and is just a obfuscation of the fact, that there still is no proof. [Argumentum ad populum [wikipedia.org]])

      I don't see some real differences. I just see some people believing that there are differences, because of some people saying that there are differences, because of either some other people saying that there are differences [circular reasoning [wikipedia.org]] or because they made it up (including favorable interpreta

    • Well, he did direct three Spider-Man movies, that has to count for something!

  • What are you smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Grokmoo ( 1180039 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:25AM (#29397983)
    The article claims Ramji has improved relations between Microsoft and open source people? Since when have relations between Microsoft and open source been anything but negative? We read stories on here almost every day about some new point of conflict.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The article claims Ramji has improved relations between Microsoft and open source people? Since when have relations between Microsoft and open source been anything but negative? We read stories on here almost every day about some new point of conflict.

      Hang around Groklaw much?

      "OMG! Microsoft is teh EVIL! Did you see Psystar is suing Apple! They're REALLY trying to destroy the GPL! Somebody (hint... hint...) really wants to destroy the GPL!!!!"

      Think I'm kidding? Yeah, I know the Groklaw legions will mod this down. But seriously, read Groklaw with the same skepticism PJ aims at, say, SCO, and you'll see what I mean. For someone who basis her entire site on respect for due process, she sure doesn't need due process or even any evidence to put on the

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by rattaroaz ( 1491445 )

      The article claims Ramji has improved relations between Microsoft and open source people? Since when have relations between Microsoft and open source been anything but negative? We read stories on here almost every day about some new point of conflict.

      In all fairness, Microsoft has been spreading misinformation the whole time Sam Ramji has been working there. Why would they stop now that he's leaving?

    • It sort of feels like Microsoft's relations with OSS are "less negative" now, so I guess that's an improvement. It is, of course, possible that they've merely moved from denial to trying "embrace and extend". But due to the way OSS works I doubt that tactic will even work - in the end - if they try it.

    • Re:What are you smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Locutus ( 9039 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @01:20PM (#29399361)
      that Microsoft Linux Lab is just a training facility for Microsoft upper management so they can be exposed to what open source is and so they can then be moved into other positions within Microsoft and use what was learned to advance Microsoft Windows or at the very least, protect its position. It's not about making money of open source, it's about understanding it and the people behind it. They go to open source conventions, not to sell Microsoft open source products but to see what others are doing and talk to them to learn their strengths and their weaknesses. They join open standards bodies not to move open standards forward but to move them in directions which leave holes open for Microsoft to leverage and to slow down or distract the committees while Microsoft embeds similar technologies into Windows or their other desktop or server apps.

      Do pay any attention to the man behind the curtain. Microsoft's Linux Lab is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham. And then some. IMO

      LoB

    • Well, any improvement would be a huge one when your relationship is at the very bottom.

      So I guess Microsoft is causing fewer points of conflict since he started working there.

      Oh wait.

  • Microsoft's Open Source Strategy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sk999 ( 846068 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:33AM (#29398039)

    Here is how Bill Hilf explains Microsoft's Open Source Strategy:

    http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=203100965&pgno=3 [informationweek.com]
    ".. our PREFERRED plan is to LICENSE ... versus LITIGATE."

    Gee, where have we heard that before? Oh yes. Darl McBride, CEO of The SCO Group:
    http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/07/59701 [wired.com]

    "We would PREFER LICENSING to LITIGATION,"

    Such a nice bunch of guys.

    • Re:Microsoft's Open Source Strategy (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Enderandrew ( 866215 ) <enderandrew AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday September 12, 2009 @11:47AM (#29398597) Homepage Journal

      In all fairness, Bill Gates used to brag how Microsoft never sued anyone (before the TomTom fiasco). They use FUD, but they didn't follow through on threats. I'm curious if the TomTom suit was an isolated incident, or the future direction of Microsoft.

      One of the major failings of the United States is that money can trump justice in civil suits. Simply bankrupting another company in a lawsuit can guarantee you victory, which is why TomTom rolled over, rather than fight a battle they likely could have won in court.

  • Microsoft has announced Microsoft CodePlex [today.com], its new Open Source foundation.

    "We want to be more responsive to your needs," said Sam Ramji of Microsoft during a Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit panel this week as he wiped rotten tomatoes off his suit.

    "We want all open source innovation to happen on Windows. In practice, Windows is too slow, and just putting Linux underneath the same software stack triples performance. So we're running the Windows versions of the software on Linux using Wine. We'll also be funding the Wine on Windows initiative."

    The new Microsoft Amazingly Open And Genuine Public License allows you complete freedom to use, modify and redistribute the software provided that every copy comes with a DVD of Windows Vista Ultimate, you acknowledge that Microsoft's FAT patent protects a remarkable and valuable innovation in computer science and all accompanying documentation is in OOXML. Also, all your data belongs to Microsoft.

    The overwhelming dominance of Microsoft was assured, he said, pointing to their success in paying netbook manufacturers to use Windows XP and paying US retailers not to stock the Linux versions of the computers. "We're also enforcing our patent on right-clicking. And on the number seven." Ramji reassured journalists of his absolute faith in the power of Microsoft's vision, just before quitting to work somewhere -- anywhere -- else.

  • This is the first I've heard of him. (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    This is the first I've heard of him. If I had heard of him before now, I sure as hell didn't remember him.

    "Success", "open source" and "Microsoft" can only come together in one way: the release of ALL of Microsoft's source code under the BSD or MIT licenses. We're talking .NET, Windows, Internet Explorer, Office, SQL Server, and all of their lesser-known business software.

    That clearly hasn't happened, so there hasn't been any success here.

  • !change (Score:5, Insightful)

    by should_be_linear ( 779431 ) on Saturday September 12, 2009 @10:42AM (#29398103)
    they still do all these "little things" like screwing Grub after Windows installation, something they can fix in one person/day. Not to mention "big" things, like document formats etc. I don't know what this guy is really talking about...

  • Not ever Microsoft employee is evil (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Enderandrew ( 866215 ) <enderandrew AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday September 12, 2009 @11:41AM (#29398555) Homepage Journal

    The overall direction of the company is evil. They have done plenty of evil things. Balmer is still a patent troll. But Microsoft is a giant company win tons of divisions. And many of their employees are real, decent human beings. Not all Microsoft divisions agree with patent trolling, FUD, extinguishing open standards, etc. In fact I talked to a Microsoft employee who once said you have to realize this is a company that doesn't have the management or foresight to have the Exchange team directly tied to the Outlook team, because Exchange is a separate server product, where as Outlook is merely part of the Office team.

    I think a lot of people fail to notice that Microsoft is LESS EVIL than they were before. No doubt, guys like Sam Ramji played a part in that. For that, I am grateful.

    Kudos to you, sir.

    That being said, does his non-compete kick into effect since Ray Ozzie said Microsoft's future 100% lies with cloud computing, and Ramji is going to a competing cloud computing company? And do you want to run a start-up trying to compete with a multi-billion dollar behemoth that likes to crush competition?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Darkness404 ( 1287218 )

      I think a lot of people fail to notice that Microsoft is LESS EVIL than they were before. No doubt, guys like Sam Ramji played a part in that. For that, I am grateful.

      How are they less evil? All they have done is simply went from ignoring OSS to attempting to embrace and extend it. All they have done is realize that OSS is in actual competition to their software and if they don't at least make improvements to their software, people will chose OSS over MS software.

      And do you want to run a start-up trying to compete with a multi-billion dollar behemoth that likes to crush competition?

      One way MS likes to crush competition is by buying them. When you get millions for your company for doing very little, I'd say its a success. Yeah, if your an employee things might not be as good, but if you

      • It is like I stepped into a time warp or something. The exact location on the hard disk holding the timestamp field for your comment must have been hit by some neutrino or something and fiddled the bits so instead of "Sept. 12, 1997" it read "Sept 12, 2009".

        I mean seriously, comment is *ancient*. It is like those hippies on Height and Ashbury who are still all dressed up for the 1960's--same signs, same slogans, same everything. Like they are trapped in time.

        All they have done is simply went from ignorin

      • How are they less evil? All they have done is simply went from ignoring OSS to attempting to embrace and extend it.

        They've made patent pledges not to sue, allowing others to use their patented technologies for free. Old Microsoft would never have done that.

        The IE team has worked to better respect web standards. The IE team even sends open encouragement to Firefox, saying they welcome innovation and competition. I read an interview with an IE developer who said his daughter accused him of breaking the internet. Since IE 6, the IE devs have made several positive strides for far more compliant rendering.

        Microsoft is assisting the Mono developers, but again Mono owns all copyright on all the code, and the code is GPL. Microsoft is also assisting the same developers with Moonlight.

        When you load IE, it prompts you to choose a search engine. Firefox and other browsers simply give you a default with no choice.

        Microsoft has released a boat-load of technical documentation, enabling the Samba devs to reach 100% feature parity for better interoperability.

        Microsoft just released GPL code directly for the first time. It was Hyper-V drivers for Linux, which is self-serving, but it does benefit interoperability. It is possible in joint ventures like these to have a win-win. I'm fine with that.

        There are plenty of examples like this. It is entirely possible that Microsoft is only playing nice because the EU is demanding it. Or it could be that they honestly want to start playing nice. Either way, the result is that Microsoft is less evil than before.

        Is Ballmer still a patent troll? Yes. Is Microsoft brainwashing Best Buy employees with FUD? Yes. Was the OOXML fiasco illegal? Yes. (It is against US federal laws to bribe foreign officials). Was it illegal when Microsoft used bribes to block foreign Mandriva deals? Yes.

        But Microsoft is more open than they were before. They used to be 99% evil, and now they're more like 90% evil.

    • a multi-billion dollar behemoth that likes to crush competition

      To be more exact, they tend to half-kill things and then eat them.

      I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to comprehending licensing and related issues, but as far as I can tell Microsoft's biggest contribution to the Open Source / Free Software Movement has been the continued tendency to obscenely restrict and retard peoples' ability to use their computers and software as they see fit (I'm thinking primarily of 'premium content protection' in Vista onward), thus waking more and more people up to the alternatives

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by steelfood ( 895457 )

      Microsoft management, starting with Bill Gates, has always been evil. Gates is an evil genius, if there ever was one. And part of his genius is looking good to the public eye despite all the crap he's pulled.

      Sure, he's done a lot of good things, like consolidate the IBM PC industry into one platform, resulting in the rise of the computing age. And he's not nearly as evil as Jobs. But that's like saying, without WWII, the American industrial complex would've never developed, and Stalin is worse than Hitler (

      • If you think the core evil of Microsoft is Gates, then Microsoft should be less evil since Gates isn't in charge of day-to-day operations anymore.

    • Microsoft is basically an engineering company headed by marketing and sales types (i.e. Ballmer). I think it's pretty much to be expected that they've turned out the way they did.

      I'm sure most of the actual MS engineers aren't too happy with the business decisions that the higher-ups make.

  • Declare victory and get out.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bsDaemon ( 87307 )
      Would you prefer it to be like the US in Germany or Japan -- declare victory then stay forever at the behest of a puppet government? ... wait, what are we talking about again?

      • LOL... So true.

        But here, who is leaving whom? AFAIK, Ramji left Microsoft. But I would think that Microsoft fits the mold of the US much more so than Linux - Microsoft being a very well funded, top-down, conventional type force and FOSS being an underfunded but extremely resourceful, often ideologically motivated and relentless opponent with whom fighting resembles playing a game of whack a mole. And if we cast the role of FOSS as Viet Nam, also receiving some funding from other large conventional powers (e

    • Strangely, Donald Trump made that exact same quote word for word when interviewed about solutions for Iraq.

  • Might I suggest (Score:2, Interesting)

    by symbolset ( 646467 )

    In recognition for his outstanding achievements in bridging the gap between FOSS and Microsoft, let me suggest Miguel de Icaza [tirania.org]. I doubt there's another human who's done more to embrace Microsoft patented technologies and extend them into popular Linux distributions. With his advocacy on OOXML, his dedicated efforts on Mono and Moonlight he's proven himself a capable mimic who can transform Free and Open Source Software from the type of innovative cauldron that gave us our current rich selection into a uni

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Blice ( 1208832 )

      Head of Gnome, right? Lead developer in bringing Microsoft .NET to Gnome, worked in Novell as vice president of development (which is partnered by Microsoft) and now is a director for Codeplex, Microsoft's new opensource foundation.

      If that isn't unsettling enough, he's a /b/tard. Look at this post from his twitter:

      "That last picture from @abock is photoshopped. I can tell because of the pixels and having seen a lot of shops' myself."

      holy shit

      I just think this guy is a massive troll. I can just picture

    • Miguel has enough money and lots more power ru[i|n]ning GNOME than he would as Microsoft's poster child.

  • I am amazed at the changes that have occurred for the company, for the team I belonged to, and the sentiments of the industry.'. It's a statement which, 46 months ago, few Slashdotters would have thought could come true!

    So, the point is that nothing changed?

    With Sam leaving, can Microsoft's positive momentum into open source continue successfully?

    What are you smoking?

  • Seriously ;-) still a great read: The Microsoft Memo [wired.com]

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