Using Classical Music As a Form of Social Control 721
cyberfringe writes "Classical music is being used increasingly in Great Britain as a tool for social control and a deterrent to bad behavior. One school district subjects badly behaving children to hours of Mozart in special detention. Unsurprisingly, some of these youth now find classical music unbearable. Recorded classical music is blared through speakers at bus stops, outside stores, train stations and elsewhere to drive away loitering youth. Apparently it works. Detentions are down, graffiti is reduced, and naughty youth flee because they find classical music repugnant."
A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Funny)
You are aware that A Clockwork Orange [imdb.com] was fiction, aren't you? It was a movie and not a documentary.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Informative)
They're probably repelling people by playing it really loudly and with horrible quality. Classical music has a lot of high notes and when played poorly it's a lot like listening to nails on a chalkboard.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Informative)
Rather indicated by use of the term "blared". It's probably only a question of time before before such speakers start attracting the same kind of destruction as speed cameras.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
My experience has not been that the music has been incredibly loud, it's been quite pleasant in fact.
I found it quite funny when I first heard they were doing this at my local bus stop, I didn't think it would be a deterrent as it wouldn't have dettered me (I was a teen when they started doing this). Was surprised it worked though.
Britains main problem isthe criminalising of its youth. They steadily reduced the amount of money going to youth programs and centres, thereby reducing the amount of places and free activities that children could go to and do. So as a result more and more of them started hanging around streets and at malls as they had no where else to go. This scared people seeing large "gangs of youth and about, assuming they must be upto no good.
They are asked to move on by police or people because they are scaring people just by being there, made to feel like criminals and then we expect them to act better.
Britain has seen a drop in most criminal activity despite Labours addition of several thousand new criminal laws since they came to power in 1997. Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
You've just described every "older" generation in every country in the world all throughout human history.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Interesting)
I just read a study (sorry, don't remember source) that studied people's impression of crime vs the actual crime rate. People in the 70s, when crime rates were high, actually felt that crime was LESS of a problem vs today when crime rates are lower. People seem to exaggerate problems more the smaller they get, like having a grain of sand in your eye.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
Or the crime rates actually drop when people think crime is a problem, and they raise as soon as people don't care as much anymore.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
People have always thought things were getting worse as the country modernised. That phrase "going to the dogs" was coined in the 16th century.
Unfortunately people like having someone to blame and the media creates fear where there need not be any. It's ironic that anti-social behaviour is now being "tackled" with more anti-social behaviour. I wonder what would happen if I set up an ultra-sonic siren to scare off dog walkers who foul the pavement near my house? What about "stinger" spike strips to roll out in front of cyclists and invalid carriage drivers who use the pavement? I should start playing recorded lectures on atheism out my window the next time the church/mosque next door starts that annoying worshipping and to discourage their followers from hanging around in groups near where I live?
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Interesting)
We've had socialised health care since 1948. State funded youth programs came much later. So we managed to pay for socialised health care without any impact at all on state-funded youth programs because they didn't exist at the time.
Actually, most youth clubs and activities were organised by the private and charity sector -- Scogui, Boy's Brigade, random clubs in church halls, and so on. Those organisations are all feeling the economic pinch in the current recession, and a lot of them had religious connections and have been hit by declining religious involvement. I'd be interested to hear your theories as to how the worldwide recession and decline in religion are caused by UK socialised healthcare.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Funny)
i hope your not from the united states of water boarding
I dunno where that is, but I'm picturing clear skies, warm beaches, palm trees, and some bitchin' waves. Got a travel brochure?
They should be so lucky (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Funny)
Your wrong.. both Canada and the US have been doing this for years. Was actually kind of sad in one case since they had a nice classical piece playing outside of a shop but inside it was Brittany Spears. I actually preferred being outside the store.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I did not mean to imply that just because they've both exhibited some really poor behavior in the past it should put them on an even playing field. I do, however, mean to imply that no one should feel morally superior here due to the action of the military or intelligence agencies.
Any moral superiority should be limited strictly to civilian law enforcement.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
"Any moral superiority should be limited strictly to civilian law enforcement."
ROFL
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Funny)
Sounds like a personal problem. When I listen to smooth jazz in public, I'm so cool that people nearby decide that smooth jazz is cool. Maybe you should work on that.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Informative)
You are aware that A Clockwork Orange [imdb.com] was fiction, aren't you? It was a movie and not a documentary.
Don't forget that Alex DeLarge actually liked Ludwig Von. He was appalled by what was done in order to let people dislike his music.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Informative)
He was appalled only by what was done to him. The aversion therapy twisted his love of the music into revulsion, even though he still wanted to love it.
Otherwise, Alex enjoyed the pain and suffering of any other human for any reason whatsoever.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It is a human melody played on the flesh of the incompetent. Those too feeble to know good from evil, right from wrong. Graphitist and rapists alongside murderers and thieves. I shall enjoy you trogs being ground to dust. Defilers of space and wisdom that you are.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You are aware that A Clockwork Orange [imdb.com] was fiction, aren't you? It was a movie and not a documentary.
Yes, but it was based on the real life documentry Transistorized Carrot [myspace.com]
A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Interesting)
Alex: No. No! NO! Stop it! Stop it, please! I beg you! This is sin! This is sin! This is sin! It's a sin, it's a sin, it's a sin!
Dr. Brodsky: Sin? What's all this about sin?
Alex: That! Using Ludwig van like that! He did no harm to anyone. Beethoven just wrote music!
Dr. Branom: Are you referring to the background score?
Alex: Yes.
Dr. Branom: You've heard Beethoven before?
Alex: Yes!
Dr. Brodsky: So, you're keen on music?
Alex: YES!
Dr. Brodsky: Can't be helped. Here's the punishment element perhaps.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Chavs yes, the rest of the youth not so much.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
I suggest Rage Against The Machine.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Funny)
Yes!
But with the voice redubbed in as Donald Duck.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music..."
Case study: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,672177,00.html [spiegel.de]
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"They seem to loathe [the music]," said the proud railway guy. "It's pretty uncool to be seen hanging around somewhere when Mozart is playing."
. It is a shame of course but there are some other things officialdom in UK (and I would believe not only there) does to people: blasting with high energy light or using high pitched noise apparently to drive all under 20 (this including toddlers) away. I am not sure if I should believe this article but nothing is impossible these days and technology offers 'solutions' to problems that only twisted mind of a public servant or perverted sadist would consider acceptable.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree. It took me also a bit of maturing to enjoy classical music, the complexity in it and what it moves in a person. To me it's really like human excellence...
Making it into a "weapon", creating a generation of yought seeing it as a weapon, load it with alot of negative association, it'll destroy your classical appreciation, or value attributed to it, in your next generation and hence you'll eventually whipe out the record of it, don't you think?
There's alot of art, history and knowledge lost in history because of lack of appreciation or value attributed to it.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
They would, but they can't afford to pay the perpetual copyright.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
ALEX's voice over at the end of the movie - "And what do you know, my brothers and only friends, it was the 9th, the glorious 9th of Ludwig van. Oh, it was gorgeosity and yummy yum yum. I was cured. As the music came to its climax, I could viddy myself very clear, running and running on like very light and mysterious feet, carving the whole face of the creeching world with my cut throat britva. I was cured all right."
Next problem... (Score:5, Funny)
Groups of retired people, hanging around busstops.
Pestering innocent by-passers...
Re:Next problem... (Score:5, Funny)
Or vicious gangs of Keep Left signs
Calculus Gang (Score:5, Funny)
But it's attracting the Calculus Gang and the Bach Gang. They wrote 30,000 digits of pi all over the bus stop last week. Cost the city 20 grand to remove it all.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Next week they're gonna start playing "Bye bye, Miss American pi" to counter that.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Calculus Gang (Score:4, Funny)
Singin' this'll be the day that I... (rolls 2d6 to save...) die...
Re:Calculus Gang (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, XKCD is supposed to be funny?
Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Horrible! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
You either like music or you don't, I REALLY REALLY doubt playing classical music is going to change the opinions of ANYONE. Did elevator music turn anyone off of being a musician? Come on man.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
"How many of these kids who may have grown up to enjoy classical music are turned off by it forever?"
Zero.
Actually not a single one of the chavs generally entertained by loitering, vandalism, and graffiti would ever have become your postulated classical aficionado, so we're good there.
Re:Horrible! (Score:4, Interesting)
Kids in general hate classical music.
As they don't have the listening skills yet to enjoy it.
Non-Orchestral music which is popular today is rather light in texture. Vocal, Guitar(s), Bass, Drums vs. a full orchestra Violins, Violas, Cellos, Contrabass (for a string orchestra popular during the classical period) expenanded to Trumpits, Tubas, French Hones, Trombones, Flues, Oboes, Clarinetist, Timpani, and a variety of percussion having a much layered and complex set of works.
The "Rock Band" Layout was based on the Minimalistic Movement of having just enough to do what you need. In many ways making music easier to listen to as there isn't much going on and you can focus on the lyrics, orchestral layout focuses on the music and you can have really stupid lyrics and the song will still be good.
Re:Horrible! (Score:4, Funny)
[R]ecorded music is just a BAD thing to listen to ... /me posting this listening to Beethoven's Grosse Fuge op.133
You're posting during a live performance? Have some respect dude. ;)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Horrible! (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a study done by the german computer magazine c't [heise.de] some years ago.
Result: While all participants were music semiprofessionals, their rate of correct attribution to the right source was only slightly above random chance, with the best one being someone with impaired hearing and thus a different reception than a normal person, who was pretty good in spotting the MP3. With higher bitrates for MP3, they even got worse than random chance.
romanes eunt domus (Score:5, Funny)
They'll grow to like it and... (Score:4, Funny)
A new renaissance will be born!
Ask the Artists (Score:5, Interesting)
One might ask what the artists would think of this usage?
Fortunately, we have a pretty similar situation with more current music being used a torture device against Guantanamo detainess, and the rock musicians who protested against that usage:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,672177,00.html [spiegel.de]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, yes, thank God we are torturing other people so that we might learn how people feel about their music being used to torture.
Now, if we could only create a robotic toenail remover that was controlled entirely by emacs extensions, so we could get Richard Stallman's opinion on software freedom vs physical liberties and human rights.
Of course (Score:3, Funny)
Children perform the bad behaviors because of file sharing and disrespect of copyright. Playing music in the public for free only gets things worse.
Will someone please think of the children?
Re:Of course (Score:4, Insightful)
"Playing music in the public for free only gets things worse."
Why do you think they tried classical music in the first place?
Playing contemporary music costs more than removing the graffiti.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Strange. We're thinking of the children when we strip away the freedoms of the adults, and appearantly we're thinking of the adults when we're stripping away the freedoms of our kids. In other words, when we're taking away from everyone, we make everyone happy... or something like that must be the logic.
It'll stop in a few years (Score:5, Insightful)
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Teenagers don't have legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops?
I can't figure out why kids would prefer to hang out at some bus stop or a train station when they could be hanging out somewhere cooler.
Maybe they'll grow up as well as old (Score:5, Insightful)
Classical music is quite enjoyable. You can point to plenty of musical/acoustic reasons why this is the case, as in the songs feature things that people find pleasing to hear. It is not the sort of thing that you require intense training to appreciate because it is all intellectual or something, and the actual sound is awful, it is simply nice to listen to.
The primary reason that youth seems not to like it is a cool factor thing, not because the music itself is in some way offensive. When you grow up, you hopefully realize that is pretty stupid, and can enjoy it.
No, the problem is the limitation of speakers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:classical music is defective (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, and when Tchaikovsky wrote 1812 he intended the canons to be about as loud as the triangle.
Anyway, if you do not like wide dynamic range in a recording, you can get a player that has integrated compressor or get an external compressor. It is much easier to compress than to expand, meaning that while I have an expander (dbx 3BX-DS) I cannot restore the dynamic range back to original if I have a crappy compressed CD.
While we will never know how Mozart intended his compositions to sound (unless someone invents a time machine, goes back in time and asks him) I prefer higher dynamic range over lower. Yes, when you are listening to music as a background while doing something else it may be better to compress the dynamic range and play a a consistent, but low level, but if you are listening to music not as a background, wide dynamic range is much better.
Tricking me into cranking up the volume with quiet parts just so that you can hurt my ears with other parts is childish.
See, the quiet parts are supposed to be quiet. You have to set the volume so that the quiet parts can be heard, but not be loud, then your ears won't hurt when the loud part comes. The dynamic range of human hearing is 120dB, the theoretical CD dynamic range is 96dB, tape and records have lower dynamic range and CDs usually are recorded with lower dynamic range too, so it shouldn't hurt your ears.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
You are basically saying today's youths are so much different than youths a century ago. Possibly, taking into consideration that intelligence increases over generations, their intellect is more advanced and their reasoning for disliking classical music is taken with a great deal of consideration.
I'll give you that I represent your words very freely indeed. But consider that Bach and Mozart are among the most skilled musicians that ever lived and that their works have stood against the tooth of time. I w
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It'll stop in a few years (Score:5, Funny)
Easy there, that makes sense and this is the government we are talking about
Oh, if we're talking about the UK government, that's even easier. Just mention to a local official that the music contains lots of "sharp" notes. They'll spring into nanny mode, and require that all the speakers be entombed in Nerf so that nobody cuts themselves.
So? (Score:4, Funny)
Most adults I know can't stand classical music either, so I doubt this will have a long term effect on listening habits; who knows, being exposed to it might actually get more kids interested in it. And as someone in their late 30's who can still hear frequencies up to 20kHz I'd much rather this than those buzz generators, as long as the sound quality isn't too bad and they don't play too much Satie (I don't want to fall asleep and miss my bus).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Most adults I know can't stand classical music either.
I would hazard a guess and say that the people who dreamt up this scheme don't either. I do wonder why this is news though, this idea was tried out at least a decade ago.
This tactic is being used against adults also. (Score:5, Interesting)
Where I live there is a notorious corner for crack cocain, prostitution, bloody fights, and anything you can imagine.
Despite constant city owned surveillance equipment the activity continues.
The local Diner installed speakers and pipes out jazz, classical, etc. I find it to be kind of nice mood music, for an elevator.
It has cut down on the drug dealers, kids hanging out, street performers, and the homeless who are normally sitting on the sidewalk asking for change. Apparently the softly played music is enough of an annoyance that they go away.
Miles Davis - 1
Bach - 1
Panoptic sort - 0
Re:This tactic is being used against adults also. (Score:4, Insightful)
Video Games Live? (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder what they'll think of Video Games Live [videogameslive.com]. Will "repugnant" classical music + awesome video game tunes make their heads explode?
It's a sin! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
answer 2: 'cause we don't want to waste perfectly good bombs. they're gonna destroy themselves pretty soon as it is.
The Year 1812, Festival Overture in E flat major (Score:5, Funny)
Pyotr Ilych Tchaikovsky, Op. 49. I'd like to hear them play that on the 5th of November at the Houses of Parliament...
Revenge... (Score:5, Funny)
There's only one solution. Bring a boom-box to the bus stops, and start blasting Dr. Dre like it's 1992.
Take that, old farts!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
There's only one solution. Bring a boom-box to the bus stops, and start blasting Dr. Dre like it's 1992.
Take that, old farts!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
1992? Dude, you ARE one of the old farts!
What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
When did our kids becomes our enemies? It seems the UK do about everything in their power to alienate their youth. I really don't know about the UK, but is there really such a big problem with "unruly youths" that you have to bombard them with "deterrents" that seem to come from the privy closet of Marquis de Sade?
What sadist comes up with those things? And why do I have the gut feeling that the only reason this is targeted at kids is just that they can't vote and thus can't kick the bastard off his comfy chair?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
off his comfy chair?
well I have to say, the chair is rather nice. I wasn't expecting that...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
C'mon, could someone post the obvious Spanish Inquisition joke so we get it out of the way and can continue a sensible discussion? Please?
I'm usually the first to pick up a good punchline, but obvious jokes are boring.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Informative)
You may have such a stance because you do not know what horror is the young generation in the United Kingdom.
I do, as I lived there, in one of the worst places regarding this (Liverpool) for about 4 years. Kids there do not care about anything, and as they know they have immunity, they will get into gangs just to do all sorts of vandalism.
As an example, I know that if a kid commits a crime, the most that can happen to them is to get an "Asbo" (anti social behaviour order). I know some of them get a bracelet "asbo" for each crime. What is the result? the kids brag about who has more bracelets, because he is more "evil" or whatnot.
In the time I lived there, a colleague of mine was hit by a paintball pellet in the eye while riding his bike from his Univ. office to his home; my flatmate was attacked by a van with kids shooting paintball pellets; another friend was thrown a car at him; another friend was walking at the street when some guys approached, took their glasses from his face and threw them (breaking them of course) to the ground. All this "just because". Oh yeah, and a Spanish friend was attacked and got his leg broken in 2 places.
You see, the problem with this is that if any of these friends tried to defend themselves, according to English law, they would be attacking/harassing minors. And, because in addition we are foreigners (mainly PhD students) we would in addition be thrown out of the country.
So yeah, in effect kids in the UK are pretty evil. But I agree with some of your posts in that the problem is not youths themselves but the general system who has forged them like that.
What I saw while living there is that parents do not care about their children and their education. The government should make parents directly accountable for their kids actions: If your kid killed another kid then it is YOU who pays for the crime. If a kid robbed, then it is YOU who pay for the crime, as an adult. That way parents can continue to have the "freedom" of raising their kids as they want, but if the kids mess up, they will get the consequences.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Kids these days and their ASBOs. Back in your day the local constabulary just gave you a talking to, or maybe a quick swat upside the head. You didn't get any fancy bracelets, or an indefinitely recorded criminal record. Instead you had to create your own remembrances of youthful, disruptive behavior by painting stripes on the onions on your belt.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:4, Insightful)
You say it in jest, but I do actually think there's a grain of truth in that.
Imagine you're young, poor and you happen to hang out with people your age because they're seen as cool, but they're actually criminals-to-be. Why? Because you're a kid and don't know better. You only know that they have the fancy stuff (well, 5-finger discount makes it possible...) and they're "tough" and nobody messes with them, actually, they mess with you when they feel like. Attractive? You bet.
By the time you're 16, you have accumulated enough ASBOs and a file big enough to make you look like you're 20 when you step on it. That's also about the time when you rationalize: Fuck it, I'm fucked. With a record like this, I won't get a sensible job. So... why bother trying?
And you start to impress the younger kids, who look up to you, how cool you are, because you have all the fancy stuff and are tough...
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
When did our kids becomes our enemies?
Not kids in general, a specific underclass of kids that cause >40% of crime (aka 'anti-social behaviour' in modern terms).
When they set fire to a car.
When they sit fire to bins and push them, burning, up against the communal entrance to your apartment.
When they break into your apartment complex's underground parking to have somewhere to drink, and smash everything on their way out.
The 11 year old putting a brick through the windscreen of an Audi TT so he can spit on the seats, caught because his DNA was already on police records from previous arrests.
Well, that's just this week. They were enemies before that.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The moment they threw stuff over everybody's cars. The moment they intruded into my garden and pissed all over it. The moment they ripped an ornament from its base and deposited it in a gutter fifty metres down the road.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Interesting)
really don't know about the UK, but is there really such a big problem with "unruly youths" that you have to bombard them with "deterrents" that seem to come from the privy closet of Marquis de Sade?
Yes.
(I say this as an American living over here who has to listen to these gangs of kids roaming the neighbourhood all night, smashing things and vandalising the place, and I happen to live in a very good neighbourhood not far from our erstwhile prime minister. It was even worse when I lived on the South Bank.)
I don't know what happened in UK society (it was obviuosly before I lived here)...hell, I don't understand what went wrong in American society to bring our fascist right-wing wackos out like postnuclear cockroaches, so I certainly cannot begin to divine what happened on this side of the pond. Certainly basic politeness, for which the UK was known for so long, has all but vanished, replaced by belligerance and in-your-face animosity as a default greeting that makes us Americans look downright polite by comparison (go figure). Whether it is down to this, or some more fundamental cultural misfiring I really don't know. What I do know, from personal experience, is that there are a bunch of kids over here (a small minority, but still more than enough) that are completely out of control and downright dangerous, and unlike the US, they don't stay tucked away in "the bad part of town", they roam everywhere and wreak havoc all over the place. If you're extremely unlucky, you own a house worth less than your mortgage in an area they like to roam, in which case you're pretty much finished (thank [deity] I didn't buy during the boom years).
Playing classical music is hardly out of the Marquis de Sade playbook, and if it pushes the yobs on down the road, then I'm all for it. Beats having the police around to crack heads...which was Chicago's solution to a similar problem.
Moral doesn't mean what you think it means (Score:5, Insightful)
General social mores in the United States may give you 'fascist right-wing wackos', but they also give you kids who aren't feral.
Hardly. Vast swathes of the south side of Chicago, Eastern LA, Salt Lake City, Baltimore, Washington D.C., Miami, New York, Philadelphia, etc. etc. have "ferel youth" running rampent. The middle class doesn't acknowledge this as they are safely tucked away in their gated communities, but anyone who has lived downtown knows this, even without seeing newscasts of this or that drive-by shooting.
And that doesn't even begin to touch the spate of school and university killings in the middle and upper class campuses that have blighted the US, usually in the heart of these so-called "moral" communities you talk about (and the so-called "gun rights" they support).
I do prefer the government in the UK over that of the US (the country is, by and large, more governable, and better governed, than the US) ... but the country here is by no means perfect, and out-of-control youth are a big problem. Too many of them watching the wire and trying to mimic American kids they think are cool, perhaps. What is telling is that they have found an effective, non-violent solution to the problem (playing classical music), and folks are comparing it to the Marquis de Sade for crying out loud -- probably some of the same folks who would favour calling in the police to crack heads if it were happening on their side of the pond, or in their neighbourhood. And then go to church on Sunday and expound on America's "moral superiority" while decrying any kind of sane healthcare system and lamenting the current administration's reversal on the use of torture against "foreign combatants."
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
The inner city kids have nothing to do because:
- There is a lack of adequate nature spaces and sports fields in the inner cities. Probably because land is at a premium and city councils would rather waste money in monthly glossy magazines promoting themselfs than in creating a well-balanced environment to live in.
- There are not enough community activities for young people in large part due to overboard Healt & Safety nuttyness blocking each an every inititiative that might involve any kind of risk (real or perceived).
Also:
- There are lots of self contained areas of high unemployment and poverty (aka Housing Estates).
- A media driven culture that values wealth and individualistic selfishness above all means that people around here are raised to not give a damn about other people, including their families.
So you end up with groups of hormone filled, immature youths with no money, no job and nothing to do, immersed in a culture that does not include the notion of respect for anybody else (not elders, not your parents, not teachers, nobody).
It's thus not suprising that England has the problems it has with youth violence ...
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Informative)
Hmmm
You appear to be placing the blame for the problem on the current Labour Government, this IMHO is generalising things. We have spent more time in the last 30 years under a right wing government (the Conservative Party) than we have under the Labour Party. It is should also be noted that these problems existed under the Conservative Government.
The Anti-Social Behaviour Order legislation (commonly referred to as an ASBO) was first put before parliament by the Labour Government in December 1997 (approx 7 months after coming to power), it became law in July 1998 (approx 14 months after coming to power). One of the reasons for the legislation was to tackle such unruly behaviour by children, behaviour that whilst annoying, was previously not deemed as serious enough to warrant a police investigation / prosecution.
There are many reason why certain areas of the country experience these problems, from poverty to lack of parental control, but I believe that the lack of urban recreation areas has certainly contributed to the problem. Under the Conservative Government recreational land was sold off for housing, this policy continued under the current Labour Government.
I was brought up on a large council estate (for you Americans, read public housing) on the outskirts of a large northern england city. Whilst both my estate, and the city in general were poor, we at least had decent recreational land, 3 football pitches, 2 rugby pitches, 2 sand pits, running tracks and a cricket pitch. I recently revisited the area. Now there is only 1 remaining football pitch, the rest has been turned into housing (and housing that is far more densely concentrated than the old council estate ever was).
TLDR / Executive Summary
Both sides of the political spectrum in the UK have contributed to the problem, so it is unfair to place the blame on only one side.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Unruly youths" is journalism code in Europe for "gangs of young Muslim men."
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Look at Venezuela (Score:3, Informative)
Compare this to what they do in Venezuela... teaching classical music to poor kids from the ghettos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Sistema [wikipedia.org]
Unintended consequences (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder if, to counter that, they would have the same consequence be a punishment to one kid and a reward to another.
Does not work. (Score:5, Interesting)
One day the town officials decided that it would be a *great* idea to shun away the bums with classic music, so they played Beethoven's Für Elise in an infinite loop. Worst. Idea. Ever. The drunks didn't care at all, nothing in their numbers changed, they even seemed to like it. On a lot of occasions one could hear them loudly bawling the piano refrain melody of the song, but even more of the time you would just see them standing there, eyes all empty and being heavily drugged. They just did not care. I, on the other hand, got pretty annoyed after a few weeks. Even today I can't stand the Für Elise melody, pretty bad, considering it's one of his most popular works. I assume the only people annoyed by that were the sober people who had to pass there every day to go to work, shop, et cetera.
Kids know classical music (Score:3, Funny)
I heard one youth on a London bus recently, encouraging his friend to play out loud some trip-hop piece with violins and a drumbeat. "They can't tell you to turn it off, because it's Classic, innit?"
But I don't think this is much to worry about. How many of us have instantly hated the music of our fathers when teenagers, only to discover its charms later in life?
It doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly new (Score:3, Informative)
New Labour scummus scummorum (Score:4, Interesting)
Understand, it's Britain (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Great... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't worry. If this method is continued then, by natural selection, more and more young people will stop hating classical music and may even start liking it. The cool guys will be those who can finish the graffiti or whatever before running away.
Re:Great... (Score:4, Insightful)
The operators of a shopping centre near my home have started doing this in an area where teenagers tend to hang around outside. The thing is the spot the kids are using is ideal for the purpose. Its out of the way and a bit dirty. Nobody else goes there and its not really a place people walk through. So I don't really see a point beyond a vague "we don't like them" sentiment.
Re:Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
The current UK trend is to deny youth any use of public space (we've just locked a churchyard because of the occasional bit of trouble), remove benches and exert social control on all gathering youth. Where are these guys and gals supposed to go? Oh, I know, to McDonalds or some place where they spend money, that's OK.
We badly need to get back to a mixture of tolerance, being less fearful and, on the other side making kids aware of how to use and co-exist in public space (we managed, with on/off brushes with the police) with the 'olds'. All this repression is idiotic, ineffective and counterproductive (because it alienates rather than teaches).
Re:Great... (Score:5, Funny)
Public Space?! Public Space?!? The young ones doan't know nought aboot the 'ardships of life these days. In my day, in my day, we; we 'ad to make do with the radio and telly and videyo games. We stayed indoors we did, playin' Super Mario and Sonic the we 'edgehog. Proper pastimes those! Taught us 'ow t'entertain ourselves they did.
'angin'g about in Public Space?! What kind've a pastime d'you call that?! Now'days with d'Internet and mobile phones, there's plenty 'nuff t'do indoars for the day without clatterin' about outside loitrin' on street coarners. Ger'roff of it ye layabouts!! Get a game handle!
Re:Great... (Score:4, Funny)
Whoops, didn't mean to post that as an anonymous coward...
As if that was YOU! You're just trying to take credit for my insightful comment. :)
Re:Just wait... (Score:4, Funny)
blasting death metal
You mean shrapnel, right? Or perhaps that would be "blasting metal death"...