Microsoft Mice Made in Chinese Youth Sweatshops? 481
An anonymous reader writes "The National Labor Committee offers an in-depth look into working conditions in Chinese sweatshops producing hardware (mice, etc.) for Microsoft, complete with pictures. Apparently, so called 'work study students,' 16 and 17 years of age, work 15-hour shifts, six and seven days a week, for around 65 cents per hour. Microsoft said it is taking the claims seriously and has 'commenced an investigation.'"
More companies too (Score:5, Informative)
MS is probably the most catchy one, but the factory produces and packages hardware for a lot more USA companies too:
KYE factory in China, which manufactures computer mice and webcams for Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Samsung, Best Buy, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, ASUS and other US companies.
Earlier also Apple products were done by child labor [slashdot.org] at many factories.
These companies should move their factories to US or EU. But it's cheaper there and this is one of the reasons why. As long as it's cheaper, they don't care about ethics.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course that stuff is made in China; corporations care nothing about human rights, only profits. And a well paid (i.e., a living wage) workforce can't compete with sweatshop labor.
If our politicians were more beholden to voters and workers and less beholden to multinational corporations, we'd have tarriffs protecting American workers from competing with sweatshops.
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
The opposite is also true, our consumerist society cares most about cost which is what drives these companies to move to places like China.
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
No, son. Our corporations care more about profits which is what drives these companies to move to places like China.
Surprisingly, you can find companies succeeding at all sorts of industries that we have been told have "moved out of the US" such as textiles, clothing, shoes, even electronics. For the transnationals that are owned by people who have nothing to do with the business itself, succeeding and making a profit is not enough. Employing people is not enough. Getting rich is not enough. Your not "winning" unless your constantly growing, and then growing faster. The drive to show quarterly increases in profit have driven this "dive to the bottom" that is resulting in kids in China working 12-hour shifts to make your WalMart trash.
Honestly, every Walmart could close tomorrow and people's lives would go on as before. Stores would open and sell stuff. People would make stuff. Life would go on. But predatory capitalism, where Capital precedes Labor instead of the other way around, is going to make things a lot worse for a lot of people. The best part, is they can sell it as "making life better".
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It is hard to consider the work environment when the average person does not have access to that information. That is one of the major problems with exploitation and outsourcing. Companies can pretend they are doing the world some good while having people in near slavery type conditions.
Until information about how products is created, this sort of environment will continue and the consumer will not be able to adjust their purchasing habits.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When we buy something (electronics, car, clothes, vegetables, fruits ... anything!), do we stop and ask ourselves in what type on conditions that good was produced ?
We have no way of knowing under what conditions it was produced. No point in asking an unanswerable question.
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As long as it's cheaper, they don't care about ethics.
Agreed. If they really gave a rat's ass about the conditions in their mouse factory, they'd audit this and other suppliers regularly. But a PR guy issuing soothing statements once or twice a year from his office is a lot cheaper than a dozen investigators flying around the world, to say nothing of the actual unit price rising when workers get breaks, weekends, and overtime pay.
That list of companies tells the real story: this is simply the way global trade is done. And if this is the way your trusted big
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MS wants to pay as little as possible for their mice, by squeezing the margins of their suppliers as hard as possible. If their suppliers are saying "Nope, can't do it for less than $X, labor laws require us to pay the workers $Y/hour." but they are actually only paying $y-1/hour, then the suppliers are fattening their margins by lying during pricing negotia
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Yes, aka the Invisible hand of the market.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It should be pointed out that the National Labor Committee's standard MO is exposing the use of foreign sweatshop labor, so that there's a significant PR cost to continuing to use this sort of labor. Sometimes they're successful in embarrassing companies into doing the right thing. Sometimes they're not. Often they're more successful in embarrassing companies into appearing to do the right thing but continuing their sleazy practices behind the scenes. Or often the company that the American firm they're emba
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
Ethical is paying a fair wage to your employees, and budgeting so that your suppliers can do the same.
Re:More companies too (Score:4, Insightful)
And this 'fair wage' is rooted where it matters. It's not fair here, no. It _might_ be fair over there (I don't know) - but comparisons using our standard and cost of living is invalid either way.
I'm not saying the current situation is right. I'm saying that the idea of a 'fair wage' is fluid, and our viewpoint is only valid here.
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Interesting)
"We are like prisoners," one worker told the NLC. "It seems like we live only to work. We do not work to live. We do not live a life, only work."
I can relate to that from time to time, but when it's gotten really bad, I've been able to spruce up my resume & find a new (often better-paying) job with the skills that I've learned while 'imprisoned.' That's not the case here:
The workers - mostly women aged 18 to 25 - work from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m. They eat horrid meals from the factory cafeterias. They have no bathroom breaks during their shifts, and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC. They sleep in factory dormitories, 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28-inch-wide plywood boards. They "shower" with a sponge and a bucket. And many of the workers, because they're young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC alleges.
Add in a rich industrialist who adopts one of the spunky factory workers, sprinkle in a few production numbers, and we have Annie. Seriously though, I've worked as many hours for a week or two on end, but hey, I'm salaried, and sometimes I have to suck it up.
If they were paid whatever a reasonable wage is, then the rest of this crap wouldn't be going on. If it was a reasonable wage, then they could save up, send themselves to college & make a better life for themselves, and the factory would eventually run itself out of labor. Sweatshops don't retain employees with morale-boosting team activities or high wages. Instead employee loyalty is had by paying them just enough to maintain their state of poverty.
Re:More companies too (Score:4, Insightful)
As a consumer of Chinese (and other developing nations') labor, it is on my conscience whether I support these practices by spending my fair wages on stuff assembled by people who get treated like livestock. I had no idea that it was cheaper to employ a person to stick the feet on a mouse than to have a machine do it. If the overall treatment (including wages) of employees was fair, would an automated assembly line be more cost effective?
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
A 15 hour day is evidence of a non-fair wage.
We are essentially using them as slaves or batteries.
They have no time to live as humans.
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
note that these people are in the age range where in most of the western world you have some but not all of the rights and responsibilities of an adult.
According to http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/childlbr.htm [dol.gov] "Minors age 16 and 17 may perform any job not declared hazardous by the Secretary, and are not subject to restrictions on hours ". So these people are old enough that if they were US citizens they could work in the US. In the UK things are similar but slightly more complex (mainly that things are defined in terms of school years rather than actual age).
I'm not saying there aren't problems here but it's not exactly "child labour" in the conventional sense of the term.
Re:Work hours (Score:5, Informative)
Bad examples still.
Milk is not a commonly used foodstuff here, and bread as you're thinking of it is purchased only by foreigners living here.
I can buy all I can eat in a restaurant for six yuan, and can eat for a week for 30.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Expensive (by local standards) and low quality by western standards.
Which is why most low paying jobs include basic accommodation.
I'm paying 1500 yuan monthly for a small two room city-center apartment of high quality (by local standards). That's about $200 a month. It's a lot more than most Chinese people earn in a month, but as I said, it is city center, just off the main commercial district so my neighbors are a mix of moderately successful business owners and mistresses of even more successful rich type
Re: (Score:2)
This is where you fail to understand the basics of international trade. What is a "fair wage" here in the USA would make people feel wealthy in China and other countries. Forcing people to work long hours may not be considered acceptable, but what if the workers WANT to work more hours for more money? If money is tight, you work the extra hours for the money, it is that simple. The cost of living and the acceptable wage for an area is also a key factor in what is acceptable. A mouse can be s
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I speak as a lazy man. I WANT to work about 32 to 40 hours per week, and get a good paycheck. I've seldom done that, though. Those jobs that were paid by the hour, and limited to a "normal" (in the U.S.) workweek generally suck ass on payday. I've worked many jobs that required me to be "on the job" between 60 and 70 hours per week. Nice paydays, but LIFE SUCKS. A half hour commute, 12 hours on the job, another half hour commute, shower, fall into bed, get up, rinse and repeat. No life at all, dude.
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Well, Apple gets away with charging an absurd markup for basically no reason, you would think they could get away with ensuring good wages for all their suppliers employees.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:More companies too (Score:4, Interesting)
The hard part is looking past the indoctrination you received in grade school. Capitalism is not always right.
not always (Score:5, Insightful)
That wasn't true two generations ago, and I remember it clearly, as do a lot of other folks on this board who are early boomers or older. The USA made just about everything people here bought, and they bought everything that was made, and the currency shifted around internally a lot more than it does now, acting as an economic force multiplier inside our own 50 state/nation "free trade common market", and not near as much went to imports from outside of those 50 states. And we had a robust middle class that actually owned things, instead of being in debt for everything beyond the ability to pay, and you only needed one normal blue collar level income to support a family, etc. We had ten year house notes, 12 month car loans, and medical insurance was way cheap.
Now what has changed is Cxx salaries went from around 10-40 times what a line worker made, to now..who knows, thousands? What does Balmer or any of these other transnational CEOs-and all their legions of sub bosses- make compared to the wage of these Chinese factory line workers? I'm not going to bother to look it up, but I bet it is more than 40 times, a LOT more. We also didn't have near as much wall street mass wealth skimming going on, and the propaganda shilling to engage in global wage arbitrage or "globalism" hadn't started yet (much).
As to people here not wanting to do the work, any time a factory announces hiring they have thousands of applications for hundreds of jobs generally speaking. As to ag work and construction etc "no one wants to do it so they have to import workers", another fairy tale. And I know I have read here *many* times that in white collar IT work they game the system to get insourced cheaper labor as well, come up with background credentials needed that are physically impossible for anyone to have achieved, then use that as "proof" they need more H1Bs and so on. Musta read hundreds of those anecdotals here over the years now.
These fatcats goal is to break the back of the middle class, to steal their wealth, full stop, so they can have their global two class society, especially in the US where the middle class got so big and strong. They are feudalists at heart. Between outsourcing and insourcing, they are succeeding. If their schemes worked for the nation as a whole, like those liars claim, then we wouldn't have an economic "crisis" like is going on. That proves their lies completely.
Last year, because of their corruption and takeover of government, they granted over a million green cards (that's just the legal insourcing, who knows how many million more off the books insourced people showed up to keep driving wages down), right in the middle of a mass unemployment situation with a lowballed 10% unemployment rate, and if you add in real part time workers and people finally off unemployment insurance, it is 17%, which is in the middle of "great depression" era numbers.
Outsourcing and insourcing, the double whammy plan to marginalize and destroy the middle class here so they can have their globalist master/serf society, with one percent owning everything eventually. That's what is going on.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You, sir, want shadowstats.com
The real unemployment rates exceed 20%. Low figure would be ~22%, while my own figures would be closer to 30%.
nyet (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not tinfoil hat, it is observing human nature. Once you have fatcats that are already mutil millionaires/billionaires, and they can easily buy anything they want, multiples, there's only one lust left, and that is dominance over other humans, a feudalistic outlook. That's what they want, that's how they live now, their policies support it, and it isn't accidental at all.
And it shows in the article, only evil people who want that sort of power treat employees that way, and the same mindset goes upstream
Re:How do you define a 'fair wage'? (Score:4, Insightful)
Labor costs are about 15%.
So for your $10 mouse, giving them decent 10 hour days would cost you about an extra 50 cents.
Hmmm. 50 cents extra for a mouse, or work children like slaves.
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More companies too (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that the factory in question is in blatant violation of existing Chinese labor laws
Is it? I'm sure the well-bribed, local officials would say otherwise. And their word is really how it is determined whether law is broken or not. That's how it goes in a nation of men not of laws.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:More companies too (Score:4, Insightful)
That doesn't mean I am comfortable with supporting those practices.
When people go off about 'what the market will bear' they seem to only factor in the financial cost of producing an individual widget and not the cost of Goodwill, Public Perception etc. that also factors in.
Look at the apartheid boycott's. Damage to companies based on their labor practices was very real and help bring about social change within a country. Even though the practice was the norm in the region.
Re: (Score:2)
Then i would assume you are no longer purchasing any product made i china as you have no good way to verify such products were NOT made under similar situations, and will of course only be purchasing products made in nice clean first world country manufacturing plants.
Better be ready to drop your standard of living by about 1/3.
Because that's how much less money you will have available to spend after you pay the higher prices.
You should also purge your life of any of the products you already own that might
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"Ethics? What is more ethical, moving your operation to the US/EU or taking away hundreds of thousands of jobs from those Chinese people"
Yes.
So my mouse may cost $15 instead of $12 and the profit margin is only 40% instead of 50%.
China is keeping their currency artificially low so there exports and labor are cheaper than our exports and labor.
People aka customers can choose what they see value in. Some people see value in a brand name. Or nice design. It is just as reasonable for a person to see value in p
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They are paid what the market will bear in that region, these people choose to work there for a reason, they aren't forced to.
Don't kid yourself, most people have no such choices but take what is available. Not just China, but everywhere. If the Chinese sweatshop laborer had a choice, they'be be living somewhere that they could have a better life.
They should probably get paid a little more, but then again you have the whole tech/geek culture which scrutinizes any product that costs more then the competitio
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Having studied more than a little history, I've encoun
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Which is why there is nothing imo wrong with sending work to China.
Not really, the other choice would most likely be work in farms in the countryside in the heat.
What is your alternative? Like I said, changes in labor laws have to come from within the country. When labor conditions were rough in the USA, it wasn't Britain who ca
What? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I see pictures. I see many pictures. All contain images of smiling, happy workers, joyously engaging in their labor. What is problem?
The problem is that just out of shot is a manager who has just told them that if they don't look happy for the photos they, and anyone from their family/friends, will be sacked and never again employed by that factory or any other that the owner has connections to the owners of.
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"YOU! Smile and look happy or you're fired!"
Fact of life... (Score:5, Insightful)
While it sucks that working conditions like these exist, how else can we buy mice for $20?
Re:Fact of life... (Score:5, Interesting)
Robots?
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How about, maybe--and I know this is going to sound heretical around here, but hear me out--not having your products built in abusive sweatshops just so you can get your toys a bit cheaper without any regard for the consequences? Making life shit for other people for your own petty benefit in this manner is not an unavoidable "fact of life" by any means, though I suppose that there are people like you horrible enough to think that it's a reasonable and acceptable thing sadly is.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree, but I don't think that his point was "screw them, I want cheap stuff". I read it as "It's obvious they get nothing, if it costs us $20".
And it is. You don't have to do "research" to understand that any $20 mouse is due to workers getting a lousy wage.
Any person that is surprised by this report is either lying or naive.
The problem is, paying $50 instead of $20 doesn't guarantee the company pays they're workers more. For all we know, those $30 can be going to their profits anyway.
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Sorry, I would rather pay 5 times more and know that they are made by workers not slaves. Same goes for anything else regardless of your shrug-it-off indifference.
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Yeah, you should buy a $40 mouse, with the difference of $20 going to the companies' profits.
It is simply not profitable for them to care. (Score:4, Insightful)
"The National Labor Committee offers an in-depth look into working conditions in Chinese sweatshops producing hardware (mice, etc.) for Microsoft, complete with pictures. Apparently, so called 'work study students,' 16 and 17 years of age, work 15-hour shifts, six and seven days a week
It's simply not profitable to have people who aren't afraid of their job and/or their life. Third World countries deliver both fears handily.
Microsoft said it is taking the claims seriously and has 'commenced an investigation.'"
Said investigation will be focused on how they can prevent such things from coming to light in the future. People will be bribed, families will go in/out of favor, etc. No real change will be made outside of moving it to another equally bad of a country/location.
66 cent compared to what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
How much can you buy with 66 cent in China?
For 33 cents you can hire someone to do your work for you.
33 cents profit for you . . . per hour!
. . . and the 33 cent guy hires someone for 16.5 cents . . .
You can see now why China's economy is booming!
Re:66 cent compared to what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I was thinking already "then they are making a really good salary". And that I mean serious. Really. When it comes to money, if that amount is true, they have nothing to complain about.
You should not just look at "what can you buy in China for this amount" (in China your money lasts maybe 3-5 times longer than in western Europe when it comes to basic expenses such as food, public transport, clothing, etc - I find it really hard to guess). You also have to look at what the typical salaries are in a country.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
To make a comparison, you might make $30k a year, which is respectable in most areas of the US. But trying coming on holiday to Norway, your money is worth very little. You will shell out $16 for a
Re:66 cent compared to what? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:66 cent compared to what? (Score:5, Informative)
In China you can eat a good meal for $0.50
In America you can barely afford a Candy Bar for $0.50
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Really?
Last time I was in Beijing I could get a good multi course meal for about $15 to $20 per person. Cheap but much more than the 50 cents you allege.
there is almost always a 2 for a dollar candy bar deal at my local supermarket...
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?!??? Are you serious? WTF? (Score:3, Informative)
You do a currency conversion when you travel, too. Ever been to South America? Eastern Europe? The average American can live like a king. In some places on the globe you can get a hotel room and three meals a day for less than $5. Seriously, what are you smoking? Even within the U.S. prices vary wildly. I rent in New York for $1,250. My sister pays $400 for a place of similar size in Utah. Are you suggesting that if I just do the appropriate "currency conversion," i can save $850 a month?
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That doesn't work since a Big Mac isn't considered the "normal" food over there. Then again, the price over here has gone up by so much that there isn't much point to going to McDonalds when you can get better food for less.
at the age of 16... (Score:2)
...I'd love to have earnt 65 cents an hour, scaled up to what the CoL is in my country, in an intense job to earn me quick money when I'm not studying. For me, working 15 hours a day is pretty standard, and I'll do it often providing (i) I enjoy the work; or (ii) it's for a limited amount of time.
It's a way of life, not a temporary arrangement (Score:2)
It's not what they're being paid, it's how it's being done. They have laws that mandate paid overtime, but it'd be suicidal to ask for it. At least in the US, you'll survive long enough to make it to court and make your case to an impartial judge.
Unlike the US, China (and many other Third World countries) make it a point to instill a certain fear in the worker's life. That's how they make the hardware so cheaply. That's also why it's not a temporary arrangement, but a permanent way of life.
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Yes, the lack of worker movement leading to unions/tribunals/etc in China (irony...) is a problem. As is the fact that a teen worries about the cost of marriage and supporting his parents' farm. Although there are many jobs which youths have to do in the West which come with poor live-in conditions, and tower blocks of state housing in Europe resemble such dormitories in their liveability.
Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
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Contrary to what most people believe the worldwide total of exploited people you can categorize under the label 'slave' is more than before the abolition of slavery... Slavery and human trade is booming business and an order or magnitude more widespread than in 'slavery times'.
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Internship is not quite slave work, but comes very close in many cases.
Not a surprise (Score:3, Insightful)
In summary: "I'm SHOCKED to find gambling going on in this casino!!"
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I think that as well, those companies are not stupid they do everything they can get away with, once things like that become public they play the shocked ones...
Nothing new here, worked since the outsourcing of manufacturing has started.
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Problem is for certain commodity items you cannot even avoid such things, show me one mouse manufacturer who does not outsource production or does not go to the cheapest bidder. Hell Logitech for instance was one of the last to outsource from Europe to Asia, but in the end they were forced to do so as well. :-(
The same goes for almost all computer parts
With food you at least can buy organic or fair trade, with computer parts there is almost no chance.
what are you going to do to change it? (Score:2)
Sweatshop? Only by your standard (Score:5, Informative)
65 cents x 15 hours x 24 days (people work 6 days a week there) = US$234 ~= RMB1,614.00
The wage is much more than the average of the workers there. The starting salary of a factory worker is no more than US$100/mth, an experienced worker (>2 yrs exp) might not be able to ask for more than US$200/mth.
Also, from what I've seen in the article, the working environment is MUCH better than any other factories I've ever seen in China.
Still, I agree that the working hours are too long, but I'm sure the workers there are more than willing to work more than you'd ask for, given high-paid.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In China (and everywhere else I believe), it is not illegal on its own to arrange 15-hour shifts. However, this can be carried out only in the presence of the employees' consent, and the "extra hours" (ones beyond the usual 8 hr) must be paid with extra wages (at least 2x on weekdays and 3x on holidays).
I can tell you that those girls and boys are more than willing to work the extra hours, but they're usually poorly educated and don't know their rights.
Also, in China it's not illegal to employ a 16- or 17-y
Seriously, this is a bunch of sensationalist (Score:2)
nonsense. The working hours are long, but it's hardly a "sweatshop." It's a decent living wage in China under (judging by the photos) very reasonable conditions in comparison to alternatives.
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I just read TFA, before commented already on the salaries, and now I realise the numbers given do not add up.
The wage yes it looks very good. But according to TFA there is a base wage of RMB 770, plus overtime for longer working. TFA also talks about 12 hour shifts (sounds more reasonable) several times. There may be people that push on to 15 hours but that is rare. Quality falls rapidly with those hours and factory managers are not that stupid either.
By the way you are talking about migrant workers here,
God damn it Slashdot, I *like* MS hardware (Score:3, Funny)
Can we just please let this one slide and go pick on Apple?
I like my Microsoft mice and keyboards. They're actually pretty decent, don't make me hate them too.
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Can we just please let this one slide and go pick on Apple?
No, but Apple is also evil [pcworld.com].
I like my Microsoft mice and keyboards. They're actually pretty decent, don't make me hate them too.
I find that they suck fucking ass. The wireless ones have inferior range to the Logitech products, and they do not have the MTBF, either. Microsoft's gamepads are the quickest to get sloppy; the analog sticks get twitchy and drifty LONG before Sony's, for example. Microsoft knows jack about hardware design. The shape of the mice is probably the most inexplicable thing. Make it fit my hand like a glove, so I have to move my whole arm to use it? This is stupid.
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Nothing we haven't seen before - it's not that bad (Score:2)
Occasionally stories like this come out, and most of the "sweatshops" look very similar to this. The conditions don't look that bad. They're not working in dirty factories with dangerous equipment. They get paid what is probably a low, but livable, salary. Most of them probably come from the countryside and have no other option for work, unless they want to stay on the farm. Remember the photos from an iPhone that came with some pictures the cute factory girls took of themselves? The factory was maybe a lit
and...? (Score:2)
With the cost of living and such over there, that may very well be like getting paid $100/day here. For someone 16-17 years old without any work experience, that isn't all that bad. Of course, I don't know the true cost of living there, but people need to stop using the exchange rates in the wrong way. If the average daily pay for an adult is $1/day but that lets someone live an average standard of living for that country, that isn't really horrible. On the flip side, if the standard of living
Robotics... (Score:2)
It is still cheaper to use manual labor then robotics to manufacture products like this. I thought robotics were supposed to make products cheaper to manufacture. Ah, it may be the cost of replacement parts. ;)
Oh, joy! (Score:2)
No wonder mice are the only useful thing with a Microsoft branding!
And? (Score:4, Insightful)
How is this different from pretty much everything else manufactured in Southeast Asia? Everything you buy that is made in China is made by people who are treated a little better than slaves. The companies provide rooms at the factories for their employees, with 6 people per room, communal bathroom, and no kitchen facilities. The employees are charged rent for the rooms, even if they don't stay in the rooms.
Remember this the next time you are at Walmart, buying crap that has been made in China. It is cheap because the people who made it are being exploited.
Re:umm... (Score:4, Insightful)
Companies such as Hewlett-Packard, Samsung, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech and Asus also outsource production to KYE Systems.
And it looks like that's just a sample list, not the complete set. The focus on Microsoft is because the article was in a Seattle newspaper, not due to sole complicity by Microsoft.
Re:Relevance? (Score:4, Insightful)
Consume less. Buy second hand, upgrade only when you need to, don't buy iToys, enjoy the fresh air, etc.
The American govt doesn't have to do anything. You, OTOH, can.
Re:Relevance? (Score:5, Insightful)
And in the meantime enjoy a shittier quality of life while making no appreciable difference in the situation.
There are a few inconvenient truths in the world:
1. Nothing you do yourself is going to affect the world large scale. You can convince others of your ideals and act as a group, but in that case your words' affect on others, not your own actions, made any change.
2. People typically act in their own self interest, and they benefit for it.
3. A large group of individuals acting in their own interests will often not enact a course of actions which are in the best interests in the group as a whole. Prime example here can be seen with a large crowd in a theater. If someone yells fire (and there actually is one), then it's in my own best interest the book it. The faster I get out of that situation the better. When every individual acts in this manner though, people can be trampled to death. The overall death toll will be higher, but the odds on survival rest on those who run, not those who calmly exit. Indeed those who walk out (the best for the group if everyone did it) are the most likely to be trampled. You can TRY to take the high road and walk, but the reality is once the crowd is running you're not stopping them, and you're only hurting yourself by not running along with them.
Re:Relevance? (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing you do yourself is going to affect the world large scale.
Shouldn't this be followed with, "So you might as well kill yourself now"?
Recall the story of the boy who threw stranded animals from the sand into the sea. "You'll never save them all!" shouts the old cynic. "No, but I saved this one," he replies.
Also, people are better in the long run at following by example than following the words of hypocrites. This works starting with the most basic family unit, the family.
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The whole point is that for the most part, one should accept this and move on. Accept that and by happy living your life the best way YOU can. That's a far cry from "just kill yourself now".
"Shut up and accept how the world is, just forget about caring and enjoy yourself," is to me pretty much equivalent to, "You might as well kill yourself now". That sort of soulless existence, making me nothing more than a trained monkey, is at odds with my desire to be all the things a human has the ability to be.
Also, if you get out of the nihilistic subculture of geeky 18-30 males, the world is full of idealistic and helpful humans working to help others' lot on a familial, urban or global scale. Your tri
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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/4454969320_a34f2800c8.jpg [flickr.com]
Photo caption
"Exhausted workers taking a break by The National Labor Committee.
These teenagers work for the KYE factory in China, which manufactures computer mice and webcams for Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Samsung, Best Buy, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, and other US companies. The factory violates every labor law in China, with grueling, long hours at an exhausting work pace. KYE recruits hundreds of "work study students" 16 and 17 years of age, who
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A picture doesn't tell me how many hours they've worked, or how old are them. Also, we don't know if the sleeping pics were staged. Investigation? Yes. Jumping to conclusions? No.
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true dat (Score:2)
Seth
Re:Well natch MS is looking into it (Score:5, Interesting)
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Wow... I don't know where to start here. I know, I'll make a list!
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Factory workers here (UK) are paid 'just enough to live on' too.
Note that in the UK, minimum wage for people aged 16-18 is only £3.57, as opposed to £5.80 for people aged 22 or over. A lot more than $0.65, but not necessarily when you factor in the cost of living difference.
Re:Child labour by western standards, perhaps (Score:5, Informative)
Reading the article, the main thrust of it doesn't seem to be the fact that they're using 16-year-olds, though there is a part about 14-15 year-olds as well. The problem is mostly the way the factory is being run.
The workers – mostly women aged 18 to 25 – work from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m. They eat horrid meals from the factory cafeterias. They have no bathroom breaks during their shifts, and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
They sleep in factory dormitories, 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28-inch-wide plywood boards. They "shower" with a sponge and a bucket. And many of the workers, because they're young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC alleges.