VLC 1.1 Forced To Drop Shoutcast Due To AOL Anti-OSS Provision 315
The folks over at VideoLAN are in the process of releasing version 1.1.0 of VLC, and one of the major changes is the removal of SHOUTcast, a media-streaming module from AOL-owned Nullsoft. "During the last year, the VLC developers have received several injunctions by e-mail from employees at AOL, asking us to either comply to a license not compatible with free software or remove the SHOUTcast capability in VLC." Within the license is a clause prohibiting the distribution of SHOUTcast with any product whose own license requires that it be "disclosed or distributed in source code form," "licensed for the purpose of making derivative works," or "redistributable at no charge." The license would also force VideoLAN to bundle Nullsoft adware with VLC. Update: 06/22 00:52 GMT by H : The 1.1 release is ready from their site; you can also read up on the release information.
Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Insightful)
It's way too late for AOL. They could hand out free puppy dogs and ice cream for the next year and nobody would ever love them again.
All 3 remaining shareholders need to get someone to fire everyone in the top 30% of pay recipients there, break the company into smaller ones with independent leadership and f'ing BURY they name AOL forever. RIP.
Re: (Score:2)
you're way to optimistic for them. chapter 7 and GTFO.
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The problem with AOL giving away puppies and icecream is that they don't make very good coasters.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
In their defense, AOL is still an okay company. They aren't as big as they used to be in the 90s, but then neither is Sega and I still like them.
- I used AOL back in the 80s when they were called Quantum Link. It was the only service that provided full-color graphics, like a primitive website: http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gquantumlink.gif [toastytech.com]
- http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/files/Habitat%20scene.gif [pbs.org]
- I continued using them for my first ISP to serve web pages to my Commodore Amiga.
- I dropped them after the wh
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Funny)
What's wrong with AOL and ME?! I'm runnin' AOL 9.0 right now on my Windows ME eMachines desktop with Norton, McAfee, and XP Antivirus Pro 2010. I got my Yahoo!, Ask.com, Windows Live, Altavista, and Mapquest toolbars for browsing with IE 6.0. I download all the latest movies before they come out, using Limewire, and all the latest cracked video games as well. Whenever my computer slows down I just call my geek friend to fix it.
Sad (Score:2)
They can't keep subscribers, and of the few products they do have, they alienate the people who would use them??? I mean, does the term "assisted suicide" apply to a company?
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Funny)
And the way to do it? remove shoutcast, make it a module, put the module outside the usa, and make it auto install. call it "aol can go to hell-shuotcast plugin OSS version"
then say, "we cant control plugin makers, sorry, but our product does not have shoutcast compatability in it."
Do a video press release flipping the bird the entire time. ALA vietnam and korea war POW film reels.
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Informative)
Why is this even an issue? Isn't VLC based in France?
Were they using the source code from Nullsoft? Couldn't they rewrite the code themselves?
TFA says:
We want to emphasise the fact that features like SHOUTcast or icecast browsing are now doable using our new extension framework and you will find user-contributed extensions on http://addons.videolan.org/ [videolan.org]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Except that they aren't using so much as one line of Nullsoft code. The license agreement in question is a service license, not a software license. It just says that any software that uses the SHOUTcast service cannot be published as source code, or require that it's source code be published, or even allow for people to make copies for gratis.
In other words, it's saying that GPL'd software can't send commands to their server and get back data. No matter who wrote the damn code.
After all, the name of the spe
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Interesting)
The license agreement in question is a service license, not a software license.
As long as the VLC developers don't use the service, thy cannot be held to any service license.
As such, even though this is 100% free of Nullsoft code, it conforms to Nullsoft's specifications (as if it didn't, it would be unable to interact with the SHOUTcast Directory server), and is thus supposedly covered under the SHOUTcast Directory Service License, as the software uses the service.
This of course is a complete and utter overreach on the part of AOL. If such an interpretation of the law had a chance in hell of prevailing in court, Microsoft would have put an end to WINE years ago.
Just another case of a large corporation abusing copyright law to bully small developers.
Re: (Score:2)
ALA vietnam and korea war POW film reels.
What the heck does the American Library Association have to do with this?
Re:Or Make Your Own... since people think it is ea (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, the article and the C&D letters appear to be about the directory service provided by Shoutcast, called Shoutcast Radio. This is separate from Shoutcast, the protocol. The quoted sections posted over at the VLC web site specifically say "Shoutcast Radio" so it's reasonable to think they're talking about the directory service, not the streaming protocol. The protocol itself for streaming the audio is open, and AOL even tried to promote it under the name "Ultravox" and it never seemed to get anywhere. But all I see that the VLC site is talking about is Shoutcast Radio, the directory service.
It's also important to know that the protocol behind Shoutcast serves way more than half a million people. Most iPhone Apps that receive streaming audio are receiving them via the Shoutcast streaming protocol even if they're not using the Shoutcast Radio directory. In many cases the ICEcast open-source implementation of Shoutcast is what's being used. Let's see, CBS Radio (AOL and Yahoo Radio), AMFM's iheartradio, and so many others are using something very much like the Shoutcast protocol, once and no longer known as "Ultravox," for serving iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad clients. I don't know about Android but I would suspect they're using ICEcast since it's the one supported by the Ogg Vorbis crowd, too.
Shoutcast/ICEcast ICY protocol is in so many more places than people know. It might not be purely AOL's Shoutcast by Nullsoft, but it's someting mighty close to it, serving tens of millions of people.
We don't need the Shoutcast Radio directory. That's the technology in question from what I'm reading at VLC's web site.
Re: (Score:2)
"Fuck." was my response too. I listen to shoutcast almost nonstop, because I like their high-quality ACCplus (HE-AAC) streams. Only difference is I use WinAmp instead of VLC, but still it's pretty lousy to force the open-source programmers to downgrade their software.
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Interesting)
I hate to interrupt a good old-fashioned witch-hunt, but AOL was instrumental in the creation of a little group called the Mozilla Foundation, transferring hardware and intellectual property to them and donating $2 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#History [wikipedia.org]
So maybe they're not all bad.
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not the first and not the last (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree, yet by the time they bought them, Netscape was a sad shell of company that didn't know it was dead yet. Nobody was going to Netscape.com by that time, and AOL tried to integrate as much of the My Netscape product into the failed My AOL product and actually brought My AOL back from the dead on iPlanet server. Traffic kept dropping over at Netscape.com and they finally put it out of its misery and redirected people to a somewhat revitalized My AOL product with the "Netscape" brand "chrome" on it. After all this, My AOL features were blended with AOL.COM and it survived to some success over the years. Today you go to my.netscape.com and it is my.aol.com with a Netscape "skin" running on a combination of Apache and AOLserver servers, the latter being an open-source project since 1999. -another ex-AOL employee.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I wonder; the EU might make email address portability mandatory if we start shouting loud enough about this. Would you like that AOL? Do you really want to annoy us?
Is this really feasible?
Software and stuff uses the host part of the address to know where to send it, would there have to be a kind of secondary DNS system for email addresses or would it just be made mandatory that all existing servers are modified to do a kind of transparent forwarding.
Also if some server shut down then that would cause a lot of problems
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh no. Now look what you've done. You have me thinking that maybe I should install FreeBSD when I get this other Opteron assembled with all the rest of the stuff laying around. You proselytizer!
Re: (Score:2)
AO-who? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, how is AOL even marginally relevant? (Score:2, Insightful)
I ask out of genuine curiosity -- if anyone has a compelling reason why any attention should be paid to AOL, please explain.
Cheers,
Re:Seriously, how is AOL even marginally relevant? (Score:5, Funny)
Sure. Just type in the AOL Keyword, "AOL".
Re: (Score:2)
Well despite how irrelevant AOL may be, they can still haul your ass to court. Of course if VideoLAN doesn't have people in the US then perhaps that wouldn't really be that big of a deal...
SCO was pretty damned irrelevant by the time they decided to become a troll.
Re:AO-who? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe their just trying to take themselves out of their own misery.
Re:AO-who? (Score:5, Informative)
You have to admire their consistency. I don't recall hearing of them ever doing anything to benefit the users.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I don't recall hearing of them ever doing anything to benefit the users.
They used to send me free floppies in the mail, that was cool.
Then they started sending useless plastic discs, that wasn't cool.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
You're kidding right? You can either pay cents for a floppy... or FREE FRISBEE, Woohoo! Seriously though, we used to grab a stack of them, and play ultimate death frisbee in an empty parking lot
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, they did release AOLserver. From wikipedia:
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
AOL are the folks behind Engadget, Joystiq, wow.com, autoblog, games.com etc. They are, for better or for worse still quite relevant (if much smaller), and apparently very good good at making people ignore their involvement in things. Probably a good thing.
Re: (Score:2)
This explains a lot.
Re: (Score:2)
At least it's not gizmodo.
Re: (Score:2)
And I thought AOL already died!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Boxee from XBMC which was first. XBMC has supported ShoutCast forever and Boxee is a fork of XBMC. Just a nit, Boxee being more commercial doesn't win it any points in my book.
Sayonara SHOUTcast! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
no one will miss AOL when it fades off into the fires of hell.
FTFY.
Re:Sayonara SHOUTcast! (Score:5, Informative)
However, we are providing a way to integrate the "icecast directory" that provides an open source equivalent to SHOUTcast. If you know and like a radio station currently listed on the SHOUTcast directory, please make sure this radio is also available on the icecast directory and let the radio owner know about how AOL treats their content.
There's a replacement, it's free and user editable. Sounds like the death of SHOUTcast to me.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't see Shoutcast fading anywhere any time soon. There are 30,000 Shoutcast servers, serving half a million listeners during peak hours.
I mostly use Shoutcast to listen to public radio. I don't see these guys going to a lot of trouble to move away from Shoutcast just so people can use VLC. Even if they did, the main alternatives for them seem to be protocols from RealMedia and Microsoft, both of which have business models just as obnoxious as AOL's.
There are open source alternatives, of course. But the
Wait... (Score:3, Interesting)
Doesn't VLC already come with DeCSS inside to decode DVD video? Isn't DeCSS "illegal software" ? ... so why does that make this module any different? Can't they just ignore the injunction and keep going?
Promise I'm not trolling, just confused, or perhaps not understanding the situation.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
What code is being provided here? They were rather vague, but it sounded to me like this "license" supposedly covers some sort of web API (the ShoutCAST Radio online directory), not the code used to access it, which was presumably written specifically for VLC under an OSS license.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed! Just to clarify things for the AC above...
This is an issue of the authors of some code demanding "adhere to our license or get rid of our code". Which I think everyone can understand the need to honor, if just as a matter of "do unto others, or else".
DeCSS is a completely different case. The code was written by a Norwegian named Jon Johansen, who not only did the cryptographic research to invent the algorithm in the first place, but wrote the code and then released it to the world. Copyright-wise, the code is legally open-source. And for all countries except the US, the code is legal for use. So for anyone outside the US, there aren't any legal problems with the code. And VLC isn't a US-developed piece of software (though to help Americans, DeCSS is distributed as a separate library under many linux distributions).
The only thing which taints the algorithm in the US is the "DCMA" law, which outlawed the use of any algorithms which circumvent a "copy protection scheme". The law is so broad that almost *anything* which alters the encoding of data (ROT13, etc) is a copy protection scheme; despite the fact that encrypting a DVD in no way prevents you from making copies of it (copies of encrypted bits play just like the original). So the DVD "CSS" encryption scheme doesn't even stop copying, yet it's able to wrap itself in the legal mantle the DCMA provides. What CSS *does* do is prevent you from playing a DVD unless the software author has paid a license fee to the people who created CSS (NOTE: not the people who creating the video codec it uses, that's just MPEG2). So all it does is stop you from making use of your fair use rights under US copyright law. It's your DVD, you have a right to play it, sell it, etc.
Now, you might argue that the DCMA, while unjust, is still the law, and Americans should abide by it. And that's a whole can of worms to which Slashdot has devoted many pages of discussion over the last decade. But initially, the effects of the DMCA were broader: worldwide, there were *no* open source DVD players. Period. Because the CSS algorithm wasn't even available in source form anywhere. DVD player authors worldwide had to pay a license just to link in a binary-only library. That is, until Jon Johansen (and cohorts) successfully reverse engineered the algorithm in a completely-legal-for-Norway manner (he was tried in court and found innocent of any wrongdoing). Thus allowing the rest of the world to watch dvds without having to pay money under a racket created by a US-only law.
And *thats* where DeCSS came from, and why it's nothing like this situation, which (while foot-and-bullet stupid) is perfectly within all internationally recognized rights of the authors.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would be very careful with such broad assertions. Actually, some countries (like Germany and many others) worsened their Copyright laws significantly in the last couple of years, mimicking the US-DMCA w.r.t. anti-circumvention measures. DeCSS could very well be illegal there... but fortunately, they don't seem to care enforcing those anti-circumvention measures all that much (though they still could, if the US government puts enough pressure
Re: (Score:2)
A slight correction. It's the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
Re: (Score:2)
This is an issue of the authors of some code demanding "adhere to our license or get rid of our code". Which I think everyone can understand the need to honor, if just as a matter of "do unto others, or else".
If this was an issue of getting rid of AOLs code, the VLC team could just reimplement it. This sounds more like a case of AOL asserting that they own copyright over the shoutcast API, and so any non-licensed implementation is infringing. This is a dubious interpretation of the law at best, but it wou
Re: (Score:2)
Open source software needs to set an example by respecting the licenses under which code is provided. Otherwise, we have no moral authority
You assume that those licenses have moral authority in the first place. It's not clear here that AOL wrote any of the code incorporated in VideoLan, so any moral authority they may assert is questionable.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
AOL makes software? (Score:4, Funny)
Speaking of which I really miss getting the free sample Frisbees from them every month. Did they go bankrupt or something?
Re: (Score:2)
No they didn't. Nullsoft (Which also made Winamp and other software) made shoutcast. AOL bought Nullsoft.
Re: (Score:2)
I once met a guy who made sculptures out of those things. I don't know what he uses for materials now.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Drug company pens. They give those things out so freely that even people who don't even go to the doctor seem to have huge stashes of Levitra and Nexium pens.
My mom works in a doctor's office and she's literally got a drug rep keyboard, mouse, and mouse pad on her computer, along with lord knows how much other stuff (pens, pads, coffee mugs, hats, etc). I swear it's gotten to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if she brought home a 46" LCD TV with a giant Lunesta logo in the corner.
Re:AOL makes software? (Score:4, Insightful)
And I'm sure that their overpriced drugs and the people who are being gouged for them are paying for all of that crapola. I'd rather they turn around and subsidize the cost for some of their lower income customers, but we all know *that* isn't about to happen.
I grew up with industry schwag as well, but that industry was far better off when it couldn't direct market to patients. Turns doctors into mere "prescribers".
Pharma is out of control in the US -- and they're more bloated and less "innovative" than ever.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Magnusson-Moss (Score:5, Insightful)
Reverse engineering and design for interoperability is legal in the US. Unless there is an active patent or AOL's code is incorporated into VLC they don't have a leg to stand on and are just engaging in bully tactics. Considering that this is AOL I'm not surprised that they're likely to shift to the SCO business model and squeeze all they can from the fumes of their diminished empire.
Re: (Score:2)
> You are aware that patents on software methods are the law of the land atm,
> yes?
The license quoted is clearly a copyright license.
> Without buy a license one does not legally play a DVD for example.
This is not true.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Actually I think he messed up, 'becoming' isn't a gerund [wikipedia.org] in that sentence, it's a participle [wikipedia.org].
Then again, maybe I missed the point.
Cheers.
OSS not the real reason (Score:5, Informative)
"When sold or distributed to End Users, the Integrated Product shall not [...] (c) incorporate any Publically Available Software, in whole or in part, in a manner that may subject SHOUTcast Radio or the SHOUTcast Radio Materials, in whole or in part, to all or part of the license obligations of any Publically Available Software. As used herein, the term "Publicly Available Software" means any software that contains, or is derived in any manner (in whole or in part) from, any software that is distributed as free software, open source software or similar licensing or distribution models; and that requires as a condition of use, modification or distribution that such software or other software incorporated into, derived from or distributed with such software: (1) be disclosed or distributed in source code form; (2) be licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (3) be redistributable at no charge." (Emphasis mine)
This is a standard provision that is part of any license agreement for commercial software, and all it says is that you can't distribute the software in a way that makes it subject to the GFDL or some other Free license.
I'm not sure what the real reason is, but the OSS provision isn't it.
And nothing whatsoever (Score:2)
SHOUTcast? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: iPhone (Score:5, Interesting)
As an iPhone developer, I can tell you the majority of streaming radio apps on mobile phones are listening to Shoutcast servers. That's where most of the money lies for AOL/Nullsoft in Shoutcast. The protocol is very simple and similar to HTTP so the iPhone OS supports it (sort of) out of the box, and some of the more advanced features (like in-stream song names) can be taken advantage of by manipulating the HTTP headers.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes Shoutcast and icecast stations are all over. Lots of awesome radio is on shoutcast and icecast stations.
Most have moved to icecast, but some are running on really out of date shoutcast servers.
What is the suckiest is the WNA and RM streams... only real idiots use those for streaming radio.
XBMC? (Score:3, Funny)
How does XBMC get away with SHOUTcast support then? Or should I be asking this question?
Re: (Score:2)
XBMC as it started out was a project that for the vast majority of it's users was illegal to possess a compiled copy of it. With the release (and shifting of main focus to) of the non-Xbox versions that's changed, but somehow I really doubt that XBMC cares too much what AOL thinks. They're liable to just declare the project closed source and keep having unexplained "leaks" of the code.
That (Score:5, Funny)
So what? Stay using Icecast (Score:3, Informative)
SHOUTcast is just a bad copy of icecast [icecast.org]. Keep using icecast [icecast.org] for your audio and video streaming and do not accept lesser, closed source imitations.
I do hope that the specific VLC developers involved with the shoutcast fiasco get the drubbing they deserve, if for no other reason than as an example for others and as payment for the trouble they've caused the rest of the project. It's 2010, closed source does not belong on the net and FOSS developers have no business undercutting FOSS projects.
Re:So what? Stay using Icecast (Score:4, Informative)
Shoutcast predates icecast. And, in any case, this appears to have been a Shoutcast directory client, not a media server.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not talking about icecast as a directory client. I'm talking about the module that was removed from VLC. Read the press release from VideoLAN [videolan.org]:
Listening to Shoutcast or icecast streams is
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's 2010, closed source does not belong on the net
Well then you better get off the train because plenty of the net will never stop using closed source software.
Re: (Score:2)
You also wouldn't like the internet without open-source software, plenty of it runs various parts of the internet, including DNS.
Re: (Score:2)
"...received injunctions from employees at AOL..." (Score:2)
No they didn't. AOL employees do not have the power to issue injunctions. They may have received some sort of "cease and desist" letters, but those have no force of law. The VLC developers need to consult an attorney. Are they using AOL-copyrighted code? If so, why?
Don't use terms you don't understand (Score:2, Interesting)
You didn't get 'several email injunctions from AOL employees'. A judge puts an injunction into place. AOL asked you to stop. It may have lead to an injunction at some point had you told them to piss off, but you complied, and thats where it ended.
The 'license issue' you quoted also basically says 'if your software license imposes restrictions that are anti-closed source software, then we don't want to play with you.' This is pretty much identical to the point of GPL but in the other direction. Same stu
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The letters all refer to something called the "Shoutcast Radio." This is the free, yet proprietary, directory of people using Shoutcast servers to serve audio data. I don't see anything that talks about the protocol itself, which is open and is used to serve audio to tens of millions of iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch users via apps like iheartradio, CBS Radio, and many others.
This isn't such a big deal but I sure hope the VLC people don't think it means they should remove the Shoutcast streaming protocol, which i
So don't distribute it with VLC (Score:3, Insightful)
Who's AOL? (Score:2, Funny)
AOL is irrelavant, shoutcast is irrelavant (Score:2)
And, in other news... (Score:2)
AOwhatthehell? (Score:2)
It seems that AOL has laid out a brilliant path for every internet company: To be successful, just do the opposite of every single thing AOL does.
Burn in hell (Score:5, Interesting)
I've operated a media distribution system (mostly video ppv) for about a decade. About 7 years ago, I ended up blocking the AOL browser completely. It was a worthless piece of shit that caused 50% of our customer service issues. Coupled with their idiotic "no refresh for 30 days" DNS servers (which means any time you moved a website to a new IP, it "vanished" for a month for all AOLosers) and their proxy servers that made tracking large-scale credit card fraud extremely difficult, it literally cost us money to even have AOLosers in the customer base. I was in the process of compiling a list of AOL IP ranges and had plans to block them completely when they finally rolled over and died in the dial-up market. Almost overnight, they became 99% irrelevant and my life got so much easier, I was able to start taking regular vacations.
In summation, GO TO HELL, AOL! You're nothing but a festering boil on the ass of the internet and your rotting corpse needs to be dumped into an active volcano.
That's hysterical (Score:2, Insightful)
Amarok (Score:5, Informative)
Was VLC Incorporating Code Supplied by AOL? (Score:2)
AOL Doing Its Best to Become Irrelevant (Score:4, Insightful)
Hello from SHOUTcast (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Hello from SHOUTcast (Score:4, Insightful)
VLC's comment that the SHOUTcast Toolbar is spyware is not accurate. The SHOUTcast Toolbar is not spyware. The SHOUTcast toolbar may only be downloaded by a user upon their prior consent.
Where consent is identified by a checkbox buried on next-to-final page in the installer of "partner software" that is ticked by default?
C'mon, this is 2010. Any bundled browser toolbar is malware (whether it's spyware is debatable) pretty much by definition.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I foresee an Internet where in order to be legally allowed to browse a website you must comply with their terms and install software at the sites choosing.
This has been around since ActiveX.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't even have to look the the future: I am the author of an alternative browser for the iPhone that formats pages for easy reading on the small screen.
I was recently contacted by a website owner informing me that my browser would be blocked from accessing their website because it does not display web pages in exactly the way they had intended.
What is the point in using a format (HTML) that is designed to be interpreted in many different ways, depending on who is reading it, if you need exact control o
Re: (Score:2)
Like... Flash?