You Are Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School 438
theodp writes "Over at TechCrunch, Vivek Wadhwa offers some don't-be-a-fool-stay-in-school advice to students that sounds a bit like an old-school Mr. T PSA. TechCrunch CEO Michael Arrington's questioning of whether students need to get any degree or go to college at all may sound appealing — dropouts Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates did do alright for themselves — but Wadhwa gives some good reasons why you should probably take the school-is-for-chumps argument with a grain of salt. 'The harsh reality,' warns Wadhwa, is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop out of college and fail,' and many big companies won't even consider hiring you for that fallback job without a degree. And, believe it or not, you can still become a tech billionaire later in life even if you're cursed with a PhD." Tech entrepreneur Michael Robertson approaches this question slightly differently; here's an analysis he made a few years ago, with the conclusion that the college investment pays off only about half the time.
It's true (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's true (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's true (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, are you talking about Gates or Zuckerberg?
Yes.
Re:It's true (Score:5, Insightful)
So no, auditing a class isn't stealing - you won't get the credit unless you pay for it.
Also, auditing a class at the same time as you're taking one of the stupid prerequisites is a good way to cut down on wasted time - just skip the prereuqisite except for the tests and coursework requirements.
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I've seen many auditing/unofficially visiting students who contribute more to the class discussion than the "paying" students. After all, they are a pretty damned self-selecting group. Of course maybe this only applies to the more academic/fundamental courses. Not many people crash a quantum computation class looking for a quick buck. Intro to Java may be different.
I still think that any interloper who actually steals time in such a manner as you describe, would be asked to leave in short order.
Woe betide a
Re:It's true (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, the teacher IS giving permission. The paying students have no say in the matter, since the teacher is the one who determines the teaching environment. Auditing classes is a normal part of education.
Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
When I get into discussions about this topic with (young) people and they think they can play the "Bill Gates" trump card (For some odd reason, they think I should admire the man since I'm "into computers"), this is exactly what I tell them. It's just plain common sense.
If you can't or won't get a college degree, go into plumbing, carpenting or another trade. They are highly undervalued "socially", but I know many of those who make much more money than I do with my computer science degree and cushy admin job. Of course, you won't get "rich" in the "rockstar rich" sense, but if the goal is to make a good living, those jobs are very good choices.
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As an electrician, one can make (under ideal circumstances) around $40/hr. As long ago as 1999 (not sure how true this is 10 years on) I heard that a *nix admin could make as much as $80/hr (under ideal circumstances).
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, as either, you -can- make hundreds of dollars per hour. Most don't, though. Discussing what you can make is pointless. Find some statistics about how much the average person makes and that's a lot more meaningful.
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Meh, that's just splitting hairs. How many IT people are getting outsourced to India? Vs. how many plumbers? Perhaps job security is less important these days than career security.
The big issue here is entrepreneurship - having an idea and turning it into a successful business. People seriously underestimate the value of entrepreneurship. Formal education is, well, too formal to foster a can-do sense of entrepreneurship. It's too much about connecting the dots, painting by numbers, checking off the boxes, following a previously existing program structure. It's the difference between doing what someone else is telling you to do versus forging your own path.
Starting and running a business, especially in a new field, requires an unusual amount of initiative and savvy. I can't think of any PhD program that's designed to foster entrepreneurship and initiative. You don't even need to be an innovator - it's about DRIVE. Gates never really innovated, at best he just used existing ideas, but he saw how things could be molded into a successful business.
Smart people are more likely than stupid people to earn a degree, land a job, start a business, recognize an opportunity. But regardless of intelligence, if you just sit there waiting for opportunity to fall into your lap you're going to be waiting a long time.
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Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
But you are missing the most important ingredient....being a ruthless bastard.
I'm pretty sure that's not the most important ingredient. If that were the most important ingredient, I know a lot of people who would be rich right now. It only seems common in famous rich people because it's common in everybody. A lot of homeless people will steal a dollar from their mate, too.
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It only seems common in famous rich people because it's common in everybody. A lot of homeless people will steal a dollar from their mate, too.
But statistically, higher IQ (we're talking better than Mensa level, not dime-a-dozen IQs of 120 or so) tends to correlate with higher ethical standards, more sense of "fair play". To become a Gates you need to be an anomaly that has both a high IQ and low ethical standards.
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Meh, that's just splitting hairs. How many IT people are getting outsourced to India? Vs. how many plumbers? Perhaps job security is less important these days than career security.
That is such utter crap. I've been hearing the same crap about how IT people are getting outsourced to India for the last 15 years. People who care or worry about being outsourced should ask themselves whether they have the skills (or inclination to get the skills) that make them irreplaceable or nearly irreplaceable. "Cookie cutter" programmers and tech support are replaceable. High-tech specialists are not. Your career security is your skills and in your ability and drive to stay ahead.
I for one I'm ha
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Correlation does not equal causation. It takes determination to find a high paying job. Virtually all college graduates are determined people. That does not mean that all determined people are college graduates.
The numbers you submitted are skewed because they account for everyone, no matter what their personality type. If you eliminate the people who are not passionate about what they do, I think you will find that the degree has no real bearing on income.
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Unlike IT jobs, that will invariably be outsourced overseas, skilled traders will always be in demand where ever you are. Locally, both plumbers and electricians want around $100/hour for smaller jobs. In twenty years time, there'll be less tradies and more demand. Guess which way their rates will be going? In 20 years, how many of today's programmers will still be considered employable for the few jobs not being done in China, India and Pakistan?
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Interesting)
Plumbers and electricians struggle to find 40 hours of work per week where I live. I was curious about how their incomes compared to mine, and the last couple guys I worked with said they typically had about 25 billable hours of work in 50 hours on the job. The rest was driving from place to place and other forms of non-billable time. So $100/hr for actual work doesn't translate into the same salary as someone who is paid that rate for a 40/hr job.
I used to get paid 65/hr as a software contractor. But I billed 60 hours a week. Care to guess who made more that year, me or the $100/hr plumber?
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
The electrician has a portable skill that CAN'T BE OUTSOURCED, is convertible to similar skills with minimum training, and complements other trade skills.
You can barter skills with other tradeshumans to enhance your living space, shop, or trade for vehicle work/parts. Plenty of opportunity to human network for side money.
You can be self-contained, with all your gear fitting in a truck or trailer.
Electricians are like auto mechanics. They may not get rich, but I've not seen one starve.
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Actually, the electrician can be outsourced, just not offshored.
This is happening in more and more fields, as a worker you and a whole bunch of others are employed by Company A which only pays you for the hours you work, the customer uses Company B which in turn has a contract with Company A for n man-hours of work available per week. The customer pays less, Company B doesn't pay as much per hour worked and Company A has a reason to exist. Of course, you as a worker for Company A are living without any job
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If you really wanna make stuff then learning welding is actually an immensely useful skill. It's one of the things I kick my own ass for not picking up sooner, I'm still very bad at it and it comes up all the damn time. If I've received one consistent piece of advice it's to just jump into TIG and skip everything else.
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As an electrician, one can make (under ideal circumstances) around $40/hr. As long ago as 1999 (not sure how true this is 10 years on) I heard that a *nix admin could make as much as $80/hr (under ideal circumstances).
You can thank the Internet for that change. Before the net came, IT was a highly profitable field, where all that specialized knowledge could make you a lot of money. But now you can find some guy in India or the Philipines with similar knowledge, and since all IT runs on the Internet now, he'll do that work for you at a fraction of a cost. All of that helpful remote management software that SysAdmins thought was so great because it let them work from home? It also lets "Peggy" work from Bangalore or Manila
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't have to be a beat-the-odds tech celebrity to do well without a college education. When I interview people, their academic degrees play little to no role in my hiring decision. My primary considerations are their portfolio of work (professional or otherwise), how well they can demonstrate their skills during the interview, and how well I believe they would integrate with the team.
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You don't have to be a beat-the-odds tech celebrity to do well without a college education. When I interview people, their academic degrees play little to no role in my hiring decision. My primary considerations are their portfolio of work (professional or otherwise), how well they can demonstrate their skills during the interview, and how well I believe they would integrate with the team.
Problem is, they'd have to be lucky stumbling upon someone as you in an interview situation. Most companies require degrees when recruiting. Which also narrows down their opportunities to create a professional resume/portfolio of work, and proven team play ability, that would impress the people that are willing to look past missing degrees, a bit of a catch 22.
Re:Common sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, I have run into that attitude in job interviews, and it sucks.
But, I am one of those people who was a boy geek 4 decades before the name was invented. I have an 8th grade and a couple pieces of freshman in high school education, and at the time a rather severe food allergy that made attending and absorbing anything from school difficult at best. So at 14, I went out to fix tv's for a living. Then I found the food allergy and stopped drinking milk products for several years.
School had taught me how to read phonetically, and I was pretty good at it and enjoyed it, gobbling up everything I could find on the electronics and physical subjects.
Getting tired of consumer electronics, I switched to broadcasting in 1962 shortly after obtaining an FCC 1st Phone. Never slowing my reading, in 1972 I passed the C.E.T. exams, again without cracking a book specifically to study for it. The sign on my usually vacant (because I'm someplace else actually working) office door has usually said Chief Engineer since 1977.
I retired in 2002 in my 67th year, or tried to, I still get odd jobs, from 18 years as the CE at a medium market station in West Virginia, I am blessed with having enough money to afford some hobbies and keep myself in things to do, although that is becoming limited because of type 2 diabetes, so the cold weather hunting and fishing sports are less enjoyable now, but I'm happy and I figure I've had a good ride as I look at my 76th birthday in about 10 days.
Am I a millionaire?, hell no, but I do have money in the bank and I didn't have to screw a lot of people over to get here either, I simply gave them a job well done, keeping them making the money they willingly paid me some of.
There is I believe, something to be said for honesty. I don't have any ulcers and I sleep as well as can be expected at my age.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Man's unique agony as a species consists in his perpetual conflict between
the desire to stand out and the need to blend in.
-- Sydney J. Harris
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I ask because I know now that I've worked for a major international oil company for several years no one is ever going to be interested in what uni I went to or what my marks were, but they sure as hell were when I
Re:Common sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Because that person understands compound interest and what it means for student loan debt to be non-dischargable in bankruptcy.
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Yes, but you seem to be someone who has a clue, and in my experience, your kind of people are in minority among those who have the power to make hiring decisions.
In many many cases, in both tiny and large corporations, hiring is done first by a HR department, outsourced to a headhunter, or by some boss who knows accounting very, but where neither type of person has any clue about what person they are supposed to hire except for the directions that were given to them.
In my experience, it is not uncommon for
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You don't have to have professional experience or go to school to build a portfolio of work. Many applicants have portfolios of projects they cooked up themselves, contributions to open source projects, and other sorts of volunteer work.
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When I get into discussions about this topic with (young) people and they think they can play the "Bill Gates" trump card (For some odd reason, they think I should admire the man since I'm "into computers"), this is exactly what I tell them.
With you spreading that kind of thinking around how will 'the chosen one' ever drop out of college and create SkyNet? Have you thought of that, huh??
Rich parents helped Bill Gates more than college. (Score:2, Insightful)
Rich parents helped Bill Gates more than college. Colour me unsurprised. If someone wants to be like Bill Gates and drop out and be successful, then they should first arrange to have billionaire parents.
This can be somewhat difficult to do, since adoption is rather a buyers' market at that level...
Re:Common sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Know how to make money without a degree? Go do it. Sitting on your arse thinking a degree isn't vital to success so by not going to University you'll be a success? Bad logic.
No college degree here (Score:3, Interesting)
Since then, I've risen to the highest ranks of IT (including CTO of a mid-sized publicly traded company).
In my experience, smarts coupled with people skills and a strong work ethic will open just about any door for you regardless of degree or lack thereof. One of the biggest problems I see though are people g
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Well, I would hardly compare myself to gates but I was on the 5 year plan in high school, didn't go to collage and I've been making 6 figures in this industry since my late 20s. Of course, I did some of the course material on my own, so not going to college wasn't in terms of "can't" but because I didn't want to - I took a few courses and the culture in collage is little better than that in high school, and in some cases worse and I just don't want to deal with it.
The bottom line is that if you want to ma
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Cause and Effect (Score:5, Insightful)
These dropouts dropped out because they were wildly successful. They didn't become wildly successful by dropping out.
Re:Cause and Effect (Score:5, Insightful)
This is probably the best summary.
If you've gone and already set up a company and are already quite profitable dropping out *at that point* to put more time and effort into making the business more successful can be fine.
You learn most of the useful stuff in the first year or 2 of any CS degree anyway.
Dropping out of college because "sure bill gates did ok" when you don't have any business or anything to build on isn't such a good idea.
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You learn most of the useful stuff in the first year or 2 of any CS degree anyway.
Interesting. For me. when I was at University I found the most useful stuff was in the last couple of years of my degree. The first year seemed to be easy stuff geared toward getting everybody up to the same position. Great for people who start a degree without a good foundation, but not so for those of us who spend the first year not having to think. Final year projects were where I really got some valuable experience and got to show off and work with a tutor on something a bit more challenging.
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"For me. when I was at University I found the most useful stuff was in the last couple of years of my degree."
It probably depends on your definition of "useful". Useful to know your trade and become a knowledgeful techie? Yeah, sure, your latter years are more valuable. Knowing enough about that "techie" stuff to become a bussinessman that hires techies? Probably you can save yourself the "petty details" from the advanced courses.
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The mods dropped out.
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I had to write a parser once, because a regular expression would not have been enough for what I was doing. I dealt with cryptography all the time, and was expected to understand block chaining and CCA security at a minimum
These were all topics that I covered in my first or second year of university, so they don't directly contradict the original poster's point. The parser stuff was all taught in a second-year compilers module. The cryptography stuff in the first year, as one of the filter modules that they use to make sure you can cope with the mathematics that you'll need for the rest of the course.
The stated aim of the second year was to cover everything that all computer scientists should know. After that, it was al
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Most of the people don't realize how useful is the theoretical background they receive. They think like "hey, why do we learn about XY, I will never use it in practice" but in reality we DO use lot of these stuff. Theoretical stuff changes your thinking and extends your abstraction capabilities. Your vocabulary grows as well. Just ask any outsider what do they understand when you start talking about technical matters. Maybe you will never use matroids or Galois fields or Laurent series in your life, but you
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These dropouts dropped out because they were wildly successful. They didn't become wildly successful by dropping out.
Right. When I talk to people who are going down the Computer Science route, I tell them to stick with it and use the acquired skills to develop that next big thing.
"If you graduate, then you have failed."
Failed at making the next big thing. But, in doing so, have a wonderful plan b.
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Re:Cause and Effect (Score:4, Interesting)
Amen. I dropped out of comp. sci. in 1989 because a side business I had modifying and making electronics for the handicapped started taking up enough of my time that I couldn't do both. Two years later, I was still barely scraping by, so I wound up the business and went back to university. 20 years later (ouch), I consider that two year stint running my own business to have been a crucial and valuable part of my education (even though I went on to get a PhD and now do completely unrelated research). If I'd burned my bridges in any way when I 'dropped out' of school, I would have been screwed. If you feel your business/idea are good enough, go for it, but always make a plan for what happens when the business doesn't pan out - statistically most first businesses don't.
Oversaturated degree market (Score:5, Insightful)
In the past when less people went on to college a degree was more valuable and basically meant a well paid job for life, but the market has changed and many more people are getting degrees. It pays more to carefully consider your options, getting work experience may be better than years of study in many cases.
Re:Oversaturated degree market (Score:5, Insightful)
Saturation has devalued the prospects of a degree, but not having a degree is in no way an advantage over having a degree. While a degree is further away from guaranteeing a job, not having a degree will guarantee that you cannot get certain jobs.
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Average student loan debt coming out of college is around $20,000. I went to a $45k per year institution, and with loans, grants, and work study I was able to graduate in 4 years with just under that much. College debt is excellent debt to have. There are tons of repayment options, deferment options, rate discounts for on-time payment, and low interest rates. Mine vary from 2-4%.To top it off, when you pay them off your credit goes sky high, so when you're ready to buy that house in 10 years you'll be savin
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It's worth bearing in mind that the market is very different now compared to ten years ago. One result of so many people having degrees is that companies are able to take for granted that they can hire someone with a degree, which can make their selection process easier and save on training. The result is that it is more difficult to find a skilled job without a degree than it has been in the past.
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Second, getting a college degree to get a specific job is not necessarily the best thing to do.
College investment (Score:5, Insightful)
Making it better than many other investments today.
College is not an investment (Score:4, Insightful)
The sooner the "college is an investment" crowd gets out of our universities, the better.
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Harsher Reality (Score:5, Insightful)
The harsher reality is that there is another thousand that finishes college and still fails.
Define "fail" (Score:5, Insightful)
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Harshest Reality (Score:4, Interesting)
The harshest reality is that the jobs are leaving.
The jobs of the CEO and his/her pals will be staying, of course.
A university degree won't make you less expendable to a corpocracy that wants the cheapest workers. Unless you are willing to cost the same to the employer at 35 as you did at 25 (and use your benefits as little), your days are numbered.
Code Poet, Rockstar Programmer, Unit-Test Guru, Meme Zealot, Jedi Knight of the Latest Methodology, or (what is likeliest) red-tunicked member of the Roddenberry Landing Crew or Storm Trooper cannon-fodder, the real masters of this game are the Bean Counters.
The corpocracy has docile subjects. It has seen that it can lay people off without having to report it (IBM -- for years), take huge local tax breaks (which your family and community paid for) and then ship jobs overseas, and claim to be "a good citizen" while loudly claiming there are "insufficient numbers of skilled workers".
Of course, you can take the Blue Pill and go back to your pasting your face into pictures of Gates and Zuckerberg. (o:
The better bet (Score:2, Redundant)
So according to the summary dropping out pays off 1 out of 1000 times (that sounds high to me) and staying in college pays off 1 in 2 times ? I think its clear which is the better bet.
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There is a link however... (Score:3, Insightful)
Between successful entrepreneurs and people who never went to university at all. For instance, I founded my own business when I was 19, now paying myself a decent wage off it 4 years later - and I would say most of the business owners I know didn't go to university. In fact, three of them, including my uncle (now a millionaire) are ex-cons...but maybe that indicates a different correlation...
I understand that this may well not be the norm - but I have seen many separate studies that indicate both of the following statements to be true:
a) University is a waste of money for most people who go
b) Not going to university will seriously limit your earning potential
I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...
Don't be fooled by the Education Lobby (Score:3, Funny)
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Thing is both you and the grandparent had some sort of plan, and the ability to get it done.
The vast majority of people pointing to Gates of Zuckenberg don't. Gates didn't get where he is by just pointing to "Einstein did badly at school" and then sitting on his butt. He did work, and lots of it. He got into Harvard and left it to found MS, not because he wasn't able to finish it. He also had a lot of luck in having rich lawyers for parents, which I'm sure helped with getting him access to hardware, and pro
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Then there was the sheer luck with DOS.
And here is the real kicker.
Most "self-made men" aren't nearly as self-made as people like to believe. Most of them got lucky more than once in their lives in order to get where they are. That's not to say luck in itself is all it's about, just that skill, perseverance and having an idea with potential isn't enough. Luck plays in, if you have an idea a little too soon the world may not be ready for it, and if you're a little too late then it might not be different enough from something else to grab everyone
Re:There is a link however... (Score:5, Insightful)
University is a waste of money for most people who go
I hate these sorts of claims because they are absolute nonsense. How can you know if my university degree was a waste of money for me? Do you know how much I value the things I learned (both in and out of the classroom) at the university? No, of course not, because you don't know me. It's like looking at someone you've never met and saying that they were stupid to go eat at some particular restaurant.
Usually, these sort of studies assume that the only reason anyone would go to college is to improve their lifetime earning potential and then compare the average change in earning to the cost of the university. While this is an important consideration, it shouldn't be the prevailing one, and more importantly it shouldn't be translated into the only potential thing of value that might come out of a university education. We are all not mindless money generating machines that simply wish to take the quickest route to a buck. Some of us want to enjoy the journey too.
I am a far better person for my university education. Even if it cost me money in the long run, I'm happy I went.
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Except of course, for the English courses.
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It's like looking at someone you've never met and saying that they were stupid to go eat at some particular restaurant.
Except, of course, if I know that you payed $100 for the same taco you knew full well you could get for $2 right down the street. Knowledge and personal development are not confined to universities, believe it or not they can be obtained elsewhere for a lot less money.
Plus parents (Score:5, Insightful)
Gates is not a success from the gutter, his family was already loaded and well educated. Likewise with a lot of these successful "college dropouts". The reality is by being raised by well educated and financially sound people, you already have a big advantage, let alone when it comes to making early deals using the extended family network. Family networks work so well, you can be a military deserter and still become the president of a large and power country.
Trust fund baby (Score:5, Interesting)
Therefore, he could take obscene amounts of risk and never have to worry about ending up in the gutter or having bill collectors after him. And if you add in that his Dad is a high powered attorney ...
Gates was a perfect storm of trust fund, brains, timing, and ambition.
Re:Trust fund baby (Score:5, Insightful)
And luck. Never forget luck.
I am sad for all those people who live in a determinist universe where all that happens to you can be explained by hard work and ambition, modulated by the amount of money you started with.
Fact, sometimes things happen to you, good and bad. Fact, these sometimes cannot be offset by any amount of brains and work.
Which is why a civilised society recognises that and helps out those people that ran into an unexpected and impossible to plan for problem. Which is why also, the richer and more advanced society is, the more taxed should be extracted, because a more complex society means also that many more things can go awry, and need to be planned for collectively -- and because more taxes do not affect your lifestyle after you are rich enough.
People saying "this is my money", "I refuse to pay for someone else lifestyle choice", "I provide for my family, why can't they?", are a problem, because they think that given the same circumstances another Bill Gates would happen. Therefore, they think that is they play their cards just right, they will become rich. And if they do become rich (this happens), they think it is purely due to them -- refusing even to acknowledge the importance of living in a society whose infrastructure allowed it. And if they become a significant minority, they will eventually destroy society.
No (Score:2, Interesting)
If by "stay in school" they mean "stay in public school," then I'm going to have to decline their offer. Public schools are absolute trash. Too many useless classes (as in, something that some people may use, but others won't, due to their career choices) are mandatory, and they put far too much emphasis on worthless grades. It wouldn't be so bad if public schools merely granted you the resources needed to memorize information that will be important to you, provided a good teacher to help you when needed, a
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The only useful things I learned in school were how to read, how to write, add, subtract, multiply, divide, and how to socialize (albiet poorly). Everything else was a complete waste of time and I could have learned it 100 times faster on my own if someone had just given me a bit of information on how to learn.
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"yet somehow you are not calling private schools "trash.""
When I said "public schools," I also meant private schools (even though they're not the same, sorry).
"I have met people who are "self taught," and I am sorry to say that in all but a few cases, they lacked certain insights or failed to understand concepts that seem elementary to someone with a more formal education."
Then obviously they didn't teach themselves what they needed to. This doesn't speak for everyone. The concept of self teaching is actual
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"Then obviously they didn't teach themselves what they needed to."
Like the point when they learn what they should learn? It seems quite a catch 22, doesn't it?
And quite at the "real scotsman fallacy" or the "tautology" too:
-Hey, teaching oneself is the way to go!
-My experience doesn't follow that. I know the selfteached often have big holes in his knowledge.
-That's because they weren't *properly* selfteached. I know that, because proper selfteached are always the way to go!
Maybe it's because your selftea
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"Sorry, but there are insights that are just not published in books. I used to think that I could teach myself certain subjects, but without the guidance of someone with years of experience, I missed things, even after reading every word of multiple textbooks. Getting by without a good teacher is not something I would expect anyone to be able to do, except for the absolute basics of a given topic."
This is why you need direction. No, this doesn't come from someone with "years of experience," it can come from
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This is why you need direction. No, this doesn't come from someone with "years of experience," it can come from just about any source. There's all kinds of curriculum and tutorials floating around that can be used. If you follow them in order and do as they say, nothing should be missed. Public schooling also has a curriculum, naturally. Without direction, you really will miss things. You simply can't say that someone that actually has the resources they need (something these people you're speaking of didn't have, obviously) can't learn efficiently.
When you make a mistake, who is going to explain what went wrong? Textbooks cannot publish every possible mistake that a student might make, along with an explanation of why it is a mistake. As the material gets more advanced, the number of possible mistakes grows very rapidly, to the point where you really need someone with a very deep and detailed understanding of the material to explain to you why your answer is wrong; this is part of the process of learning. Like I said, I am sure people can learn
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As for having mistakes explained, not all mistakes are the result of poor memorization. For example, I recently turned in a proof as a homework assignment for an introductory topology course. The conclusion of the proof was correct; the logic, however, was not correct. My mistake was subtle, and in another scen
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Are your parents expert enough in abstract math to teach that to you? How about world history? How about computer science? Again, when you go beyond the absolute basics, a teacher with experience in a given subject is indispensable.
In the computer science field, I was able to self-learn much earlier than what it was introduced in education. In fact, it's probably best to self-learn as much as you can, or at least build a personal reference that you can use later, since you will probably not encounter stuff otherwise. Basically, if you learn computers at the rate presented in public schools, you'd be there for quite some time (assuming they don't have some sort of asinine discipline system, in which case don't bother.)
For artwork, I
Emphasis on Majors (Score:2)
One factor I don't think is emphasized enough is the choice of major students select. With respect to Robertson's outlook, many liberal arts degrees are a waste of an investment. The odds of you landing a well-compensating job with one of those degrees is slim. On the other hand, if you pursue a technical degree the outlook is much brighter. Programmers, technicians, scientists, engineers, and other similar workers usually earn higher wages than what Robertson lists as his median.
One additional subject I wo
Thank God (Score:2, Insightful)
Ideals and reality (Score:5, Insightful)
Ideally, if you work hard, you will succeed. In reality, if you work hard, it will likely be for SOMEONE ELSE who will use your hard work for their success. This is why your boss drives a better car than you and has a bigger house while you do all the work.
This is a simplistic picture but generally accurate.
So what did we learn from this? If you want to "succeed" (whatever that means) then you have to be more like the people who are already succeeding. If you wish to study, then study those people and do what they have done. And if your conscience gets in your way, then you have two choices -- listen or don't listen. It's a decision you will have to live with either way.
The things Bill Gates has done to the whole world are impressive by any definition. Some people would have a hard time doing that due to issues of conscience while others would have no problems at all. These others are classically identified as sociopaths. Statistics have born out that the most powerful people on the planet are sociopaths as they are willing to do what most people are not, for reasons of conscience. But fear not! There may be some hope for you.
If you are one of those people who believe "if you are too stupid, ignorant or otherwise don't know what I know, then you deserve whatever happens to you" then you are already well on your way to being a sociopath. I know first hand, that there are a lot of people here on Slashdot who feel that way. (I'm sorry, but if you didn't know that truckload of explosives was heading your way while you were sleeping in your home, then you deserve whatever happens to you!)
Personally, I decided long ago, I don't have what it takes to do what "successful" people do... or, as I see it, I have what stops me from doing what it takes. (I can't knowingly make people miserable and call it "just business" as many others seem to be able to do.) I have accepted it and I will just keep working every day, try to save some money and hope I die before I retire.
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Okay then, let's make a short list of counter-examples. What modern-day success exists today did so without screwing over a bunch of people in the process?
What you are talking about in terms of running a small business is risky. It is risky because when Best Buy's Geek Squad, or any local large operator sees you as a threat, it won't be long before you are eliminated one way or another. Sometimes it's possible to operate "under the radar" but the fact that anyone would need to do so is clear indication t
Re:Ideals and reality (Score:5, Insightful)
"What modern-day success exists today did so without screwing over a bunch of people in the process?"
Most of the people I know?
Unless you have some bizarre definition of success that doesn't include making a living, doing quality work, contributing to a community, raising healty children, doing things you enjoy, learning about things that interest you....
Statistical anomalie? (Score:2, Interesting)
So from this limited sampling of two, we can conclude that dropouts do alright for themselves, but only by screwing everyone else over?
Community college is a much better deal (Score:3, Insightful)
The program I teach in usually has 100% of the graduates employed within six months of graduating. It takes three years. We're a community college so the tuition is quite low. Many of the students live at home with their parents, so they have cheap living expenses.
The bottom line is that, for some college programs, the investment is pretty safe and pays off.
Remember that the statistics for lifetime earnings take into account the History and English PhDs serving coffee at Starbucks. If you get a good job, your results are much better than average.
Maximize cost/benefit ratio. (Score:3, Interesting)
First, I want to see *some* sort of check and balance on college expenses. Every examination of college prices over the past 30 years has shown horribly high growth relative to earning. Most things I read agree the problem was good intentions, making loans for education extremely safe, but has lead to colleges taking the blank checks, running up expenses through the roof, and the payback protections to lenders turning graduates practically into indentured servants, unable to escape that creditor no matter how little they have and even bankruptcy not being a way out. The answer is not insanely easy loans, there has got to be a better way.
In terms of going with what's there, start with a community college. It's a total waste to piss away more money on the basics in the first two years of college. After a couple of years, go to a state college with a good co-op/intern program. Use the co-op program, do not simply take the classes and get out, get some professional experience on your resume and subsidize the extra cost of state college with your pay.
Do *not* get too hung up on the prestige of one school versus another. At least when I look at resumes, professional experience matters most, low GPA can give me concerns, and which school figures prominently in the don't care area. One exception being I laugh at people with 'bachelor's' degrees from ripoff places like devry, phoenix, etc. I'd personally rather have someone without a degree than a sucker who fell for those places. However, I'm not allowed to entertain people without 4 year degrees by company policy, so unfortunately your chances of dropping out and making it within the rules of established company is nearly zero. All the examples of rich dropouts are those who were never 'hired' by anyone, but sold product and services directly to people who only look at the quality of the product and promise, not at their resume.
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In terms of going with what's there, start with a community college. It's a total waste to piss away more money on the basics in the first two years of college. After a couple of years, go to a state college with a good co-op/intern program. Use the co-op program, do not simply take the classes and get out, get some professional experience on your resume and subsidize the extra cost of state college with your pay.
Exactly. College is so often a poor investment simply because kids pour too much money into it. It's like whining that you lose money on your real estate investments when you pay 10 times what the property is worth.
Going to an inexpensive school and working your way through school, paying the bills as you go in stead of racking up huge loans, will leave you not only with a degree and little or no debt, but it will also give you some valuable life experience and skills that your debt-ridden colleagues wi
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First, I want to see *some* sort of check and balance on college expenses.
I think this will be the next bubble to burst. A friend of mine is on the administrative staff at a local (smaller) college, and knows of the situation at others in the area, and she reports that they are out of money and they are living semester to semester on tuition checks. You don't usually see a college or university go bankrupt, but I think this will start happening more and more until tuition gets in line.
Do *not* get too hung up on the prestige of one school versus another.
There is something to be said for school brand. Some alumni are very clicky. I've met hiring man
College's role in my life... (Score:2)
Bill Gates is a poor example... (Score:2, Interesting)
Bill Gates is not a good example of the typical young person who drops out of college and strikes it rich. His family was upper middle class and had enough money to send him to a prestigious college prep school. You can bet that before he earned any money on his own, his computer interests were heavily subsidized by his family. He certainly got a head start in life that few of his generation never had. I'll bet that parental support was worth quite a few years of college.
Zoho Don't Need No Stinking Ph.D. Programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
Zoho also does not need any bachelor degree programmers. Zoho prefers to hire right out of high school.
I think college degrees are only worthwhile for jobs that actually require the degree: doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc.
I consider my own degrees (math, business, and comp. sci.) to be a complete waste of time, money, and effort.
Here's the Zoho stroy:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/01/208222/Zoho-Dont-Need-No-Stinking-PhD-Programmers?from=rss [slashdot.org]
Dropping out ... and getting back in. (Score:3, Interesting)
I dropped out of college. Then after a short job, I found it quite getting a job that I thought that I was qualified for. Then a few years later, I went back to college to finish my degree in Computer Science.
However, I did find that retaking courses at college was more difficult than the first time. Because the course schedule had changed, some courses I needed to take were at the same time as others, or changed to another semester. Therefore, I could not not complete my degree in the same amount of time than I would otherwise have done.
After college, I found that the time gap was a big mark on my resume. I was dismissed as many times in the first iteration as when before I had gone back to college.
There is also a lot of ageism. At least over here in Sweden, most recruiters want people who are ideally no older than 25, with a completed degree and exactly three years of experience, so that the company can put the guy to work directly, make work long hours, easily mold in the company's way of doing things ... and pay a lower wage.
If you are over 30 and do not have much commercial work experience in the field, then you are practically no longer wanted. Even people over 40 with 15 years of work experience in IT are having problems finding work.
Robertson: Or, You Might Work Less (Score:3, Insightful)
"Tech entrepreneur Michael Robertson approaches this question slightly differently; here's an analysis he made a few years ago, with the conclusion that the college investment pays off only about half the time."
Robertson compares income for high school versus college graduates, and concludes that a better payoff would come from taking college tuition and investing in stocks (historical ~7% payoff versus 4% public college and 2% private). However, this overlooks things like the amount of effort put in to make that income.
Take my case as an example: With my Master's degree I can teach college part time, make about the U.S. median income on 10 hours of work/week or so, live in New York, and devote most of my time to artistic pursuits. So my income doesn't look much higher, but it's because I've decided that I'm happy with a given level of income, and having satisfied that, don't need to work any more.
Some data to flesh this out: Robertson concludes, over 40 years, graduates of high school make $1.2M, public college $1.8M [http://michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=226]. U.S. Census bureau reports hours worked per day: graduate of high school 7.86, college 7.42 [http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0625.xls]. So median hourly salary is something like (assume 250 days worked per year) high school $15.30, college $24.11.
U.S. median income is approximately $21,587/year [http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html]. How much do you have to work per year to make that level of income (assume 8 hour days, 5 days/week)? High school graduates 1,411 hours = 176 days = 35 weeks. College graduates 875 hours = 112 days = 22 weeks. The difference would be more stark if I had data on actual days worked per year (i.e., vacation time, etc.)
I agree that income payoff is one factor that people should look at when considering college (along with things like self-fulfillment, reward of intellectual pursuits, networking potential, etc.) At some hyper-inflated level it definitely wouldn't be worth the risk, but I'm doubtful we're at that point yet. Perhaps more a important gauge is overall quality-of-life or satisfaction level (mine, for example, being exponentially higher than if I hadn't gone to college, even though my total income might actually be less).
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You don't need a college education, if you follow the 10,000 hour rule.
I assume you are referring to the idea that it takes 10,000 hours to become a true expert at something. The problem is that in many cases it is irrelevant whether you are an expert or not. What matters is whether there is evidence you are at least competent.
Most people do not end up being tech entrepreneurs, in the same way they don't become international spies for MI6 or top-flight football players. Most people will need to get a normal job somewhere and if you are looking for a reasonably good job, a degr
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a degree or professional qualification is necessary, either because it is required in the field (eg accountancy, engineering)
Right now accountants, especially new graduates, are also having a really hard time. A LOT of folks saw that as a safe way to make a decent living and jumped on the bandwagon - now there's a glut. It may not last because everything runs in cycles, but don't forget, accounting can be offshored just as easily as programming.
It's the same for engineering.
Nursing: with this economy, many folks are jumping in because it's a "safe" job now BUT there will be a glut and employment w
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"a degree or professional qualification is necessary, either because it is required in the field (eg accountancy, engineering)
Right now accountants, especially new graduates, are also having a really hard time."
And this has to do with the thread... how?
Are in any way ungraduated accountants making any better than the graduated ones?
Re:Don't bother with college (Score:5, Insightful)