Windows Phone Permanently Modifies MicroSD Cards, Warns Samsung 426
dotancohen writes "Don't put your MicroSD cards into Windows Phones. According to Samsung, doing so is a 'permanent modification' to the card, and it can no longer be used in other devices."
Permanently modified? (Score:5, Insightful)
Say what now?.... If this is even possible there is something really wrong with the SD card in question...
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Furthermore is there any warning on the phone that it alters SD cards as such?
This sounds like a major defect in both the phones and the SD cards.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
There is a yellow sticker completely covering the SD slot that says it will void your warranty if it is removed. I think that's' warning enough that it isn't a general purpose SD card slot. It also required an SD card that is certified as Windows Phone 7 complaint. Currently no such cards exist.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
Well that's the issue, it's NOT supposed to be removable storage. Even if it didn't "break" teh card it still wouldn't be general purpose removable storage. The phone reformats the card along with the internal storage to create a single Volume, kind of like a RAID mirror. Taking out the card would make you lose all your data, on both the card and the internal storage. The only reason it uses an SD card is because it's convenient to build, and it allows the different providers to use whatever size storage they want. In this phone, the SD card it not a user serviceable part.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Interesting)
The only reason it uses an SD card is because it's convenient to build, and it allows the different providers to use whatever size storage they want. In this phone, the SD card it not a user serviceable part.
That, and it doesn't even surprise me in the slightest that MS is going to require you to buy an SD card from THEM. At twice the price I'm sure, "for the added quality" of course. They're doing you a favor don't you see?
Who else in the world would consider making a proprietary format of SD card?
It's like those game consoles that can take a hard drive upgrade, but only if they get to dip their hand into your wallet during the upgrade, selling you an "upgrade kit" that gets you past their clandestine restrictions on swapping of hardware.
You can piss and moan all you want, but be sure to Vote with your wallet - it's the only vote they count.
Slipping a little bit more towards on topic though... the SD card format (sony iirc?) has a lot of cloak-and-dagger DRM features built into it, that up until now haven't gotten used much. There's a reason it's called a "secure digital" card. I expect this problem is coming up because when you stick in a new unlocked SD card, MS flips all the switches to turn on the DRM on the card, effectively bricking it for any device short of that specific phone you put it in. Preventing you from using it to move data between your phone and anything else. I'm sure they'll sell you an app to do that though.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:4, Insightful)
You can piss and moan all you want, but be sure to Vote with your wallet - it's the only vote they count.
.
I'd love to, but unfortunately I bought their product once and now I'm locked in to voting for them, because other votes are "incompatible".
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
Bah, that should be RAID stripe, not Raid Mirror
Meh, considering how much data I've lost and restored from an external source on Windows 7 miroring is a good idea. And lets not even get into the time Windows 7 arbitrarily uninstalled my network connection. Bastards.
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odd, as i have one in my hot sweaty palm as we speak. seems to work pretty good too.
regarding the SD thing, i've seen reports that the Samsung Focus (currently the only phone with SD storage, and the one i own) is very picky about the cards being used, it doesnt seem to matter which class of card you use or what size, though it can allocate up to 32GB. from what i understand, WP7 will append it on to the existing partition, and the fault occurs when the card is removed and reinserted, the device will only r
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How do you explain that, given the facts? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice one MS - bone everybody for your FAT32 "patents" for years, then ditch it entirely for a double-secret proprietary format.
You don't understand Microsoft, that's all. You think Microsoft is a software and hardware company, but it isn't. Microsoft is an evil company that uses "mistakes" in software and hardware to deliver evil. It's the evil that is important to Microsoft, the money is secondary. That may sound like an anti-Microsoft opinion, but what other idea could you have, given the facts? Certainly Microsoft knew about that issue. Certainly Microsoft knew it would lower the profits, especially since they didn't warn anyone.
Re:How do you explain that, given the facts? (Score:5, Insightful)
Blow it out your ass. The Nazis were evil. MS is just scum, there's a difference.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Interesting)
The S in SD means "Secure" which is an acronym for DRM ... and how that DRM exactly works is not public... Microsoft is probably using the DRM feature of the cards... where as most other companies to this point have not been that brave...
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Funny)
May I respectfully suggest that you acquire a dictionary and use it to find out what everyone else in the world means when they say "acronym"?
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Unfortunately, what most other people mean when they say 'acronym' seems to be incorrect as well, confusing it for 'abbreviation' in many cases. An acronym is a type of abbreviation, but not all abbreviations are acronyms.
Of course, what yup2000 did was even further from accuracy than that.
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Larry Boucher intended SCSI to be an acronym all along. Pronounced "sexy." That didn't quite happen. I still think you're sexy, Larry.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Funny)
Larry Boucher intended SCSI to be an acronym all along. Pronounced "sexy." That didn't quite happen. I still think you're sexy, Larry.
From sexy to scuzzy in one easy lesson.
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May I respectfully suggest that you acquire a dictionary and use it to find out what everyone else in the world means when they say "acronym"?
Common mistake. This depends if you're American or not.
The Oxford English Dictionary permits both Acronym or Initalism for this term.
I suggest reading this article for your full compliment of knowledge on this [randomcat.co.uk].
We can clearly agree that:
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I thought that within its province it's pronounced Beeb.
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May I respectfully suggest that you acquire a dictionary and use it to find out what everyone else in the world means when they say "acronym"?
I guess you're referring to the nicknames the Greeks used instead of their real names whenever they went to talk democracy on Acropolis.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Funny)
May I respectfully suggest that you acquire a dictionary and use it to find out what everyone else in the world means when they say "acronym"?
Acronym is just a homonym for euphemism.
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I think Shitty Euphemism Causing Unjustified Retarded Expenditures describes DRM pretty well.
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The S in SD means "Secure" which is an acronym for DRM ... and how that DRM exactly works is not public....
That is why SD cards are scary... Once I tried to do a low-level formatting on my SD card, but the program I used to do do it went crazy and I guess it sent random comands to my card and killed it. Using another SD-specific low-level formatter on my pda it was back, nothing else could fix it.
Scary.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
The SD Card can be locked to a specific device using a password.
example:
http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-linux-sdcard-security.php [embeddedarm.com]
An SD card can be locked using a password, or it can be set to permanent write protected mode.
Also the manufacturer of an SD card may not include the secure features in their cards (which would probably mean it wouldn't work on these phones)
From the linked article: ...
Technologic Systems has developed a Linux application named "sdlock" which can be used to manipulate SD card hardware-enforced password locks and set the card's permanent write-protect feature. Using a password protected SD card is a great way to ensure software security and/or to make sure your TS-7000 SBC based product cannot be used in an unintended matter once deployed. This utility is only available for the TS-7300 and TS-7400 products, which are configured with the TS-SDBOOT firmware.
Some of the possibilities include:
Password protecting SD Cards
Set the SBC to boot only locked SD Cards
Set the SD Card readable only on a specific SBC
Checksum verification of bootable SD Cards
Make an SD Card permanently write-protected
How To Use It
Usage and command line help for this command:
$ sdlock –help
Usage: sdlock [OPTION]
Controls SD card lock and permanent write-protect features.
General options:
-p, --password=PASS Use PASS as password
-c, --clear Remove password lock
-s, --set Set password lock
-u, --unlock Unlock temporarily
-e, --erase Erase entire device (clears password)
-w, --wprot Enable permanent write protect
-h, --help This help
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
A few of the technologies went on to be used on their own, without the unified framework - HDCP now forms the DRM component of HDMI, CSS remained in use on DVDs - while others fell into total disuse. CPRM is one of the latter. It's a dead technology, which continues to be present in SD cards like a vestigal organ because it's part of the SD specification. It's possible Windows Phone 7 is using a remnant of the old CPRM to encrypt SD cards - they arn't intended as removeable storage, but perminant upgrades to the phone.
If this is the case, then it is possible to reset the cards (Doing so would render their existing contents unreadable, of course), but it would require software that I doubt anyone has ever had reason to write. No-one ever bothered cracking CPRM or even making tools to reset it, because no device ever used it. *Predated the unified framework initiative, but intigrated into it.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
If this is even possible there is something really wrong with the SD card in question
You have to dig further into the links in the article to find out what is really happening [engadget.com]. Apparently the Windows Phone 7 devices are stressing the SD cards in a manner which is not in-spec for a normal SD card. This means that a SD card which is perfectly fine by the normal spec might be ruined by the way the Windows Phone 7 OS uses the card [microsoft.com].
This means that you will need a SD card which is certified under more stringent requirements in order to not be destroyed by the Windows Phone 7 OS.
On top of that the OS also completely reformats the card so that it is a "permanent" part of the device. It probably sets up special space for swap space and other OS-specific data structures so that they can be accessed quickly and easily by the OS but this results in the card not having a normal disk layout that other devices can read using default software.
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it would not surprise me if exfat is part of this process...
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Funny)
Windows Phone 7 requires a certified high-speed microSD card for optimal performance.
If "optimal performance" means for MS engineers "doesn't break things down", then it explains a lot of my experience. (Talk about lowering one's expectations!)
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If "optimal performance" means for MS engineers "doesn't break things down", then it explains a lot of my experience. (Talk about lowering one's expectations!)
I'm all for breaking compatibility if you are going to get huge reliability and performance gains and there are no decent open alternatives to be had but this is certainly something that needs to be avoided, if possible. However, it seems to me that Microsoft does a lot of needless "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" in these circumstances when they really should do their best to try to re-use a more open format.
Of course, I'm a bit cynical and I figure that this is just a ploy on their part to lock
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It probably sets up special space for swap space and other OS-specific data structures so that they can be accessed quickly and easily by the OS but this results in the card not having a normal disk layout that other devices can read using default software.
Specifically, it sets up a kind of RAID0, with the data being striped across the SD card and the internal flash. In theory this speeds up access to data in permanent storage, but I haven't really noticed a difference compared to Android phones. The downside is that if you remove it, both the internal and external SD card cannot be recovered, and all your data is lost (since the data is spread between both).
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Microsoft has really managed to create a device less compatible with microSD cards than the iPhone, which doesn't eve
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Informative)
So if we follow your link and find out what is "really happening," we find out that some blokes plugged a card into a phone and that it seemed to kill the card.
Of course if you read the second link [microsoft.com] I posted you'd see that Microsoft itself spells it out a bit more clearly:
When the operating system integrates the SD card with your phone:
From this point on, the phone's operating system uses all of the available memory as a single storage space for storing applications and data. The phone will stop working properly if you remove the SD card, and the SD card cannot be read by another phone, device, or PC.
It's not just one data point from some casual observer. The manufacturer of the operating system states quite clearly that this is the expected behavior.
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Of course if you'd read the first link you posted, you'd have seen this:
Coincidentally, we appear to have fried a card after moving it in and out of our own Focus today to the point that no PC, phone, or camera can read it anymore, so this is definitely a real problem that needs a real solution.
Which is rather a different problem than your second link describes.
HTH. HAND.
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not exactly; the second link states that it keys the card to the device, suggesting that it enables the "not so well known" security modes of the SD card.
Since the new device you are putting it in (camera, PC, etc.) doesn't know the code, the card does not respond (or does not respond in the correct manner.) result-- Foreign device thinks the card is broken.
This was probably implemented to engage in one-upsmanship with Apple, concerning who can make the most draconian content control system. Sure, you can put the apps you downloaded onto an SD card-- But, since we dont really want you keeping a removable library of apps or other tidbits, we will make it so that once you insert the card, you have to keep it there or risk fluxxoring your phone up, and further, we will make it so that you cant even read it outside of the phone anyway. But, HEY program developers! Your precious install base is SAFE with us! We patched that nasty sneakernet problem! Oh, and FBI/CIA/[insert agency], we made it so that those nasty information terrorists cant just hide their phone's SD card in their shoe or something-- Not if they still want their phones to work! See, we're doing our part to make the world SAFER!
Nevermind if you are a developer yourself, and want a fast and convenient way to put your home-grown application on the phone for testing, or if your application intends to use generic filesystem controls to make a cross compilable application for all 3 phone platforms.. no no. That's just a sad side effect of doing what's best for you, afterall-- "Seriously now Mr Developer, We were just doing WHAT YOU WANTED, Right? You said you wanted your apps not to get pirated-- We just did what we thought was best for you! Why aren't you happy!?"
Etc... Etc... Etc...
this is why hardware makers should not be expected to go out of their way to secure a platform other than what is necessary for ordinary functionality. DRM is and should be the sole discretion of the application creator, not of the platform's creator. EG, [purely hypothetical here] "iTunes for Android" (HAH, like that will ever happen..) can do whatever kinds of calisthenics apple seems necessary to secure their precious music files, and communicate "safely" with the itunes market on the "Untrusted" (AKA, "we don't own it") android platform, but EG, motorola or Google should not try to ham-fist a DRM mechanism on the platform. This is how the platform itself remains application agnostic, an thus more "open."
As-is, the special filesystem method used by the windows 7 phones would require lots of specialist code to support that platform, where nearly identical code could be used for iOS and android.
Additionally, this non-standard interface nonsense makes it impossible to use any kind of SD hardware upgrade, like found in some GPS packages. (this is a full size SD solution, but it is probable that such things will come to be in the smaller micro SD format eventually, since they are pretty much identical except for size.)
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/spectec-rolls-out-microsd-packin-sdio-gps-receiver/ [engadget.com]
By being a non-standard slot, with a non-standard interface type, this makes windows 7 phones fundamentally incompatible with such hardware. Putting one in might well damage both the card AND the phone.
Way to go microsoft!
Re:Permanently modified? (Score:5, Insightful)
That begs the question, why even have an SD card if you're going to make it permanent? Seems exceptionally stupid to me. Either solder it in, or make it a removable card. Doing both is just... neurotic.
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1. The "modification" mentioned is that Windows Phone uses the "LOCK" command of the SD card, which sets a password on the card. This is not commonly used, but it is part of the SD card standard. The S in "SD" stands for "Secure", and the "LOCK" command is one of the security features. It is possible to unlock the card via an UNLOCK command (requires the password) or via the ERASE command (does not require the password). Unfortunately, tools that support the LOCK, UNLOCK, and ERASE commands are essentially
Borg phone (Score:5, Funny)
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I'd love to see the borg try to assimilate a supercapacitor.
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And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:3, Interesting)
This information alone means that I'll avoid ever getting a Windows phone, even if it should have tremendous advantages otherwise.
Re:And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:5, Funny)
Extra! Extra! Slashdotter vows to avoid Microsoft product! Read all about it!
Oh, thank God for Microsoft (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Oh, thank God for Microsoft (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:5, Insightful)
This information alone means that I'll avoid ever getting a Windows phone, even if it should have tremendous advantages otherwise.
Why? Because of a hyperbole laden /. thread? That's a terrible reason to decide anything.
There is a warning on the phone. There is clear documentation that this will happen. The slot is not designed for convenient insertion/removal. It is not intended to be used as a portable storage.
It is intended to be a permanent expansion module for the phone, not removal SD storage.
Let me ask you this: Suppose they didn't use an SD card slot. Suppose they had instead developed a proprietary connector instead and sold the expansion as proprietary modules that had to be installed at a service center. Would that trigger the same sort of averse reaction from you?
I'm curious, because if you wanted to upgrade your 16GB iPhone to 32GB that's essentially the process assuming you could even get it done... do you avoid iPhones because of that?
MS is using the SD form factor for this because it meets their needs, and using an existing form factor reduces engineering and manufacturing costs. Don't think of it as 'SD removal storage' and think of it as an upgrade kit that just happens use the SD form factor. Honestly, most consumers will likely never even use the functionality at all. And for those few that do decide to expand their phone this way, it requires very specific SD cards, and its well documented that its a permanent upgrade using SD form factor and not plug/play removal storage.
Re:And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And they expect to sell those phones? (Score:5, Insightful)
To ignore any of these points regarding the consumer is just painting a big red failure sign on the barn.
Its physically located under the battery, and its covered by a sticker with a warning on it. The sticker on the one I saw you had to cut through to actually insert a card, there was a prominent warning on it, and it mentioned voiding your warranty.)
Its not like there its on the side of the phone wide open and ready to receive media.
You are right that there will be some JoeBlow out there with just enough tech-savvy to find and recognize the card slot, and enough recklessness to cut through the sticker and jam the first thing he can find that will fit into it...
That's NOT going to be your average user. That's going to that same class of idiot that randomly sticks ram modules into their motherboards without regard to whether the motherboard will accept that particular speed or configuration. The kind who tries sharing his printer by plugging it into the usb port on his PVR, the kind who has his entire living room plugged into a bar plugged into a power bar plugged into a power bar. The kind who have their cable modem plugged into a LAN port on their router, the kind who plug their TV into their PVR using an HDMI to DVI adapter and wonder why their is no sound only to then plug in a set of composite cables and watch everything on the composite input "in HD".
I know people like that. There's one at the office... he was excited to find an old motorola 9-pin serial to RJ-45 adapter used to program certain 2-way radios. Why was this a big deal? He also had a USB-serial device used for old blackberrys. He figured he'd be able to use his ipod as a network attached storage. The missing link... a male-male usb adapter. Luckily... he had a USB hub he wasn't using. Game-set-match! (True story.)
Since when do we at slashdot really concern ourselves about the fate of these people?
We had a good one like that (Score:5, Funny)
First keep in mind that I work for an Electrical and Computer Engineering department at a university. We aren't training artists here.
So a group of students from a particularly problematic lab come and ask a completely nonsensical question. We can't even understand what the fuck they want, and suspect they don't know what they want either (this happens more often than you'd think). They want a converter cable, we get that much. With some difficulty and showing them various cables we arrive at the fact that they want DB9 to HD15. WTF? We tell them there is no such thing and could they please let us know WHY they want such a thing.
Well see they are giving a presentation using a laptop that is hooked to a projector. They need to hook up a second protector, so they figured they'd use the DB9, aka serial, port. Yes, really. They could not understand why this would be a problem.
Some people just want to plug anything in to anything and figure it is just a simple cable that'll make that happen.
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Nice examples, but there's no reason that audio won't work over DVI equally well as over HDMI.
I don't claim to be an expert, but to my knowledge the DVI spec doesn't include audio.
However, yes, its becoming common for PC video cards to provide it anyway. I'm not aware of anything else that can do it "natively".
Normally you need something like this...
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/include/prod_html/closeup/dviaudhdmiclose.shtml [gefen.com]
Which takes separate dvi+spdif and outputs hdmi.
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Please get the facts straight (Score:5, Insightful)
Freudian slip? (Score:5, Funny)
I guess putting a MicroSD card into one of these phones probably would have to qualify it as "expendable"...
Also can only use nonexistent cards (Score:4, Insightful)
So as far as the consumer is concerned, you can't expand the storage on a Windows 7 phone either.
Do the editors even actually read the stories? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Do the editors even actually read the stories? (Score:5, Informative)
But what appears to have fried our card is the fact that any card inserted into a Windows Phone 7 device "will no longer be readable or writable on any other devices such as computers, cameras, printers, and so on" according to documentation on Samsung's site -- including, amazingly, the ability to format the card.
Sounds like the card is being "permanently modified" (and not for the better) to me.
Do you? (Score:2)
Samsung have documented the feature for the Focus, saying that inserting a MicroSD card into a Windows Phone can be considered a “pernament modification” adding ”it will no longer be readable or writable on any other devices such as computers, cameras, printers, and so on”.
The two sources quoted (Samsung and MS) aren't contradictory. Given these two (incomplete) statements, I would guess that Windows Phone is formatting the card using some sort of disk pooling scheme, similar to LVM, and thus the data on the card is only meaningful as part of the entire pool. This may not be truly permanent from the point of view that you might be able to reformat the card, but it is permanent in the sense that any data that was on there before has been lost for good.
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The two sources quoted (Samsung and MS) aren't contradictory. Given these two (incomplete) statements, I would guess that Windows Phone is formatting the card using some sort of disk pooling scheme, similar to LVM, and thus the data on the card is only meaningful as part of the entire pool. This may not be truly permanent from the point of view that you might be able to reformat the card, but it is permanent in the sense that any data that was on there before has been lost for good.
The article specifically mentions that you can't even reformat the card. So yeah - it's permanent in the usual sense of the word.
Permanently modifies? (Score:5, Funny)
SD limitations according to Microsoft KB2450831 (Score:5, Informative)
From Microsoft's KB2450831 [microsoft.com] support article:
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Question:
If the MicroSD card in your Windows Phone 7 device cannot be removed or replaced, what is the point of making it a MicroSD card rather than simply more onboard memory?
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It's probably done so the manufacturer can decide on the memory capacity of the phone after it has been produced outside of the factory and react quicker to market demands.
Plus, rebranders can put different amounts of memory into previously brandless phones.
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Good question!
I want to say that cost is the reason, but I can't: As highly-integrated as a modern smartphone is, it'd almost certainly be cheaper to put the extra flash memory on the same board as everything else than it would be to build a socket to house an SD card.
Perhaps marketing flexibility: They may want to be like Apple and advertis
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Re:SD limitations according to Microsoft KB2450831 (Score:5, Insightful)
Easy - you build phones with the "sweet spot" memory today, but in 6 months they look far behind in capacity. Instead of scrapping a containerload of $300 phones, you upgrade them with $10 of memory and sell them.
Sure you might save a little with onboard memory, but this leaves the market segmentation decision until later.
Sounds more like... (Score:2)
..The Microsoft Phones are going to use the SD card for some sort or Swapfile / Cache (Or something like that)
Since the "approved" card must have fast, random Read/Write access.
Expect to require a new SD card every few months if that's the case...
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What do you care? (Score:2)
you don't have a windows 7 phone anyway! (Neither do I.. due to stupid shortages in Canadialand) but that's besides the point.
Probably Just the media class being changed (Score:5, Interesting)
Its probably just the media class that is being changed. Within the first sectors of SD cards and flash drives there is a section which defines what kind of removable storage device it is. You can change this with certain tools to make things like flash drives that usually show up as removable storage show up like fixed drives so that you can boot from them. This simple change in the first chunk of the memory makes the system treat it entirely differently, allowing multiple partitions etc. So if the device is re-labeled as a different class in this memory segment it is quite possible that it would behave like this. The hp bootable USB utility can make this kind of change to a drive and so would probably be able to recover one of these 'modified' cards to a format usable by other devices.
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I had an Olympus Camedia C830L camera and it required a special "panorama" SM card (obviously more expensive than regular cards) to be able to take panorama images. Turns out that after using a modified format utility an ordinary SM card could be turned into "panorama" card.
The process was complicated, the first phase involved damaging contents of the first sectors. The card was no longer recognized by Windows or the camera. After that the modified restore utility restored the proper sectors, along with the
The SD slot isn't meant for the customer (Score:5, Interesting)
The SD slot is intended to be used by the carrier to upgrade device internal memory. That's why there's a big old sticker over it saying it will void your warranty of you install it. There's really nothing wrong with this, IMO. It's more flexible than baking in the flash memory and having to go back to Foxconn for new orders of 64GB models.
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Are you suggesting it shouldn't have such a warning for something that could easily damage the card and/or possibly the phone?
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What phone (or any digital electronic item) isn't it on? Practically every electronic device that can be tampered with has a "warranty void if removed" sticker on it. Those that don't usually have it implied, or in the warranty terms. If you alter or disassemble an electronic item, it's pretty unlikely that the warranty will be honored.
This SD card isn't a consumer-usable slot, it's the internal phone memory. They've just chosen (presumably for economic reasons) not to solder the chips to the board.
Not really seeing the issue. (Score:2)
Microsoft says that you're not even supposed to be using the card slot yourself with your own cards; that it's intended for the manufacturer of your phone, so I'm not really seeing the issue here.
Probably using SD's DRM Mechanism (Score:5, Informative)
I've been studying SD cards for the last few months and I've managed to dig up some heretofore "secret" leaked documents about SD Digital Rights Management mechanism and I think I know how such a permanent modification could be performed.
One of the things that all SD cards support is the ability to designate a certain portion (which can include ALL) of the card's block storage as "secure". Once designated as secure, the blocks in question cannot be read, written to, or the area resized without performing an authentication step with the card. This authentication step is known as "AKE".
I'm willing to bet that the phone is using this "secure" facility and marking the entire card, or some significant portion thereof, as a secure storage area.
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like the standard is broken (Score:3, Interesting)
If the SD standard allows for this then the standard is broken.
All devices - particularly media devices - should be able to be reset to a "clean" state, where the only changes are those put in by the firmware to track remapping, "odometers," and the like and this "firmware"-controlled data is unwritable by ANY consumer device.
You can make a DRM-enabled chip that meets these requirements and meet what I think are Microsoft's requirements fairly easily. You need to have an instruction to the firmware to "lock" the SD device to the host device so only "authorized" devices - or only this device - can read it, an "unlock/modify lock" instruction that can only be executed by devices authorized to change the lock settings, and a "reset card" instruction accessible to any device that will scrub the card of all usable information and THEN after the scrub finishes, remove all the locks and finally do a standard format operation.
It sounds like the latter or perhaps the last two operations are missing from the SD standard or missing from most implementations.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I skimmed the articles, and they were short on information regarding exactly what was done.
I don't know anyone with a Win7 phone, nor do I expect that any of my friends will get one, so I won't have a chance to test it. My suspicion is that they use yet another filesystem, which is unusable by other platforms. To the best of my knowledge, there's no way to permanently write to a card so it can only be used on a device. The only way to make a card unusable is to write to it t
Re:Maybe it is a problem with the Windows formatti (Score:4, Informative)
It would be nice to set up a card that can only be read on *MY* machine, so if someone snags it, they can't read the contents.</p><p>
</p></quote>
You could always try encryption - there are many programs which will encrypt any read/writes made to a particular drive
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for the slashdot crowd it should be nothing to hook it up to a mcu and zero it out in spi bitbang mode, so its only permanent for most people, but your right its flash, the only way to really fubar one is to burn out the gates
Logical Volume? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Windows Phone 7 operating system treats the SD card as an integrated part of the phone. This is in contrast to other devices, where you can use an SD card to increase the memory available to the device at any time or to transfer files to other devices,” the page reads.
To me this sounds like they are creating a disk pool that treats the internal memory and SD card as single logical volume, like LVM on Linux. In that case, even if other operating systems understood the formatting, it would be like yanking a single drive from a RAID array and expecting to get meaningful data off of it. It's possible in the forensic sense, but the data is incomplete and that's not how it is meant to be used.
I agree that you could probably reformat again, but they really should have been more upfront about the fact that sticking an SD card in a Windows Phone will result in permanent data loss.
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Considering there are comments from people on the Engaget article that say pretty much this exact thing, I believe you are quite correct. They allow a memory expansion but it is not treated as an external storage device but as additional memory that becomes part of the phone.
There are tradeoffs with this, but with some phones hiding the card under the battery (RIM Curve for one), it makes a lot of sense to have the card just be integrated and not treated in some special way. Obviously, this is going to pl
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What I do know is that you could always encrypt the whole card with TrueCrypt, making it readable only to YOU, provided you don't share the key.
Re:Pointless (Score:5, Informative)
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They are on Win7 phones - I think all the ones I've seen reviewed so far have placed the MicroSD card slot behind a "Warranty void if removed" sticker in one way or another.
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At least Nokia advertises for the N900 the SD card is hot-swappable.
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If you don't need a shovel to get to it, it's not buried.
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More correctly, it uses MTP [wikipedia.org], which has implementations on operating systems other than Windows.
In any case, you should have better researched your purchase.
Re:Probably ExFAT (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if that were possible, this would be too blatant a bug to have slipped through QA.
This is Microsoft QA we are talking about here..... Vista slipped through that QA.
Re:Probably ExFAT (Score:5, Informative)
Nope.
Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4015/htc-surround-review-pocket-boombox/8) say:
The other interesting thing is that cards initialized on WP7 are locked to a specific device, and moreover, stop being recognized on the desktop - perhaps permanently. I took the card out of the Surround and spent considerable time trying to make it format, first on Windows, then OSX, and finally linux by trying to write zeros and random data to the disk using dd. This failed, as I only managed to get 'medium not present' errors every step of the way - in fdisk, gparted, every trick I know for really nuking storage.
So, it actually does trash the card. There may be a way around that, but if there is so far some fairly smart people have failed to find it.
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The second, most common in PDAs and the like, and found on some laptops(if it supports SDIO it is definitely one of these) actually connects the host device directly to
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Secure Digital includes DRM. See this article [wikipedia.org] for more information.