CA Sues Over DB2 Migration Tool 104
aesoteric writes "Software giant CA has filed suit against an Australian software developer over a program that allegedly enabled companies to migrate off CA database platforms onto IBM DB2. It claimed the software 'reproduced' portions of confidential source and object codes without permission and deprived CA of license fees. CA also disputed claims that its database platform was 'dying.'"
Getting desperate, are we? (Score:1)
Is CA still alive??? (Score:2)
There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff.
CA's disreputable (acc'ting scandal) (Score:5, Interesting)
"There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff." - by AliasMarlowe (1042386) on Friday November 26, @09:47AM (#34349872)
CA's disreputable - See their "ethics" in accounting practices which they got busted for:
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Customers know Computer Associates - and, these days, for all the wrong reasons. Just as the company was beginning to shed its reputation as a home for legacy software products that carried an inflated price tag, it was rocked by a series of accounting scandals. An on-going FBI fraud inquiry and investigations by the US Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission have left it reeling, with a power vacuum at the top as over a dozen senior executives have left or been sacked. The allegations centre on internal accounting and sales activities in the years around the turn of the century, and involve the movement of revenues between quarters and product areas, and consequently, the mis-statement of financial results."
FROM -> http://www.information-age.com/articles/290656/the-information-age-interview.thtml [information-age.com]
APK
P.S.=> CA also listed a freeware of mine as a "malware" which was written to help out a fellow forums person I knew at NTCompatible years ago, because he had an OLD version of Apache server on Windows which would not run as a tooltray icon while minimized & it was not implemented as a service he told me (that was so it was not visible onscreen and ran "in the background transparently" which most webservers now, do).
So, in good faith/being a "good neighbor", I wrote it up for he (it's NOT commandline argv/argc parameterizeable either, so it's NOT scriptable) in GUI form (only 2-3 lines of code & works via C/C++ type invisible "spawn" type parameterizations).
Next thing I know? It's out online being classed as a "malware" (1 of around 40 freeware apps I've done over time that did VERY well & were featured in respected publications in good reviews in reputable & respected publications like "Windows IT Pro" Magazine (it was Windows NT Mag back then in the 1990's - early 21st century) & others of like ilk).
Apps that can be used "both ways" get 'victimized' this way (which is like PING via "ping of death", or tools from NIRSOFT (good stuff) &/or SysInternals even (yes, even Dr. Mark Russinovich has had this happen to he (e.g. pstools) as it has myself & Nir Sofer of NIRSOFT) have tools that can be used "for the good" or "the bad", depending on WHO is using them & what they're up to (like a gun, guns don't murder people - other people do).
So, then I took CA's 21 point removal test & passed EVERY SINGLE QUESTION without fail no less, & they would not remove it (but, they had to put it down to "Zero Threat Levels")... I did that on the advice of an attorney (John Lowe of Hiscock & Barclay).
Afterwards when I told the attorney these results, he told me "Yes, you have a WINNING CASE for libel/defamation of character" etc. "and it's worth approx. $150,000 U.S. Dollars", so I said "Well, let's do it then on a 33.3% of the take for you as payment" (keeps attorneys 'motivated' doing it that way, plus, it's no init. money down for retainers etc./et al).
Then, he replied "I can't do this case!" I was like "WHY?!?" & he said "Because larger companies have fleets of attorneys that will 'drag it out' for over a decade and by the time you collect, which you would? The overall COST of doing this would exceed your reward!"...
This is how the REAL world works, if you're not a "Financial Goliath" in other words - there is NO "justice", only money (and if you've got enough to take on the likes of these companies, then, & ONLY THEN, do you get real justice)... makes me ill, because the likes of CA know this, & abuse it! apk
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Yep. Congrats on posting your cool story a half dozen times. I hope CA continues raping your corpse.
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hrock" is who did that submittal to they I strongly suspect, because I found posts of his on CA's malware forums, AND, I also wrote he and he kept addressing me by my MIDDLE name + last name, rather than my first name - which IS how CA listed it (this is actually online too, in a blog of his).
I asked Thor SCHMUCK why isn't Spybot "Search & Destroy" also listed? It alters a HOSTS file, which violates CA's malware removal list test (albeit Spybot S&D alters HOSTS in a GOOD way vs. known malware laden
Re: (Score:2)
des without permission and deprived CA of license fees. CA also disputed claims that its database platform was 'dying.'"
business court database lawsuit news story /
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Submission: CA Sues Over DB2 Migration Tool by aesoteric (1344297)
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Getting desperate, are we? (Score:1)
by furbyhater (969847
Re: (Score:2)
Reply to This Parent
CA's db is dying? (Score:2)
by LaminatorX (410794)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 9:16 (#34350124) Homepage
Quick, somebody get confirmation from Netcraft.
--
"The most merciful quality of the human mind is its inability to correlate its contents" --HPL
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Runs only on big hardware (Score:2, Informative)
by sbates (1832606)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 9:18 (#34350132)
From the ca site (http://www.ca.com/us/products/overview.aspx?id={40FB2A1D-9B09-429E-9D52-12347
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Public: Bring out yer dead.
[Company releases migration software]
ISI Software: Here's one.
Public: That'll be ninepence.
CA: I'm not dead.
Public: What?
ISI Software: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
CA: I'm not dead.
Public: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
ISI Software: Yes he is.
CA: I'm not.
Public: He isn't.
ISI Software: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
CA: I'm getting better.
ISI Software: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
Public: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
CA: I don
Uh... (Score:4, Informative)
So the article itself is /.'ed, but using Google, I can't seem to figure out what database CA has that everyone is theoretically migrating off of. I knew CA had a lot of products, mostly related to the mainframe, but an actual honest-to-goodness "select * from table" database? News to me.
Re:Uh... (Score:5, Informative)
Datacom [wikipedia.org], apparently.
Never heard of it myself though judging from the size of the Wikipedia article, neither has anyone else.
Re:Uh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow...from the Wikipedia article I went to the product's homepage, and most of it is filled up with a big blue box that has a two sentence blurb that invites you to click more to get ... a few more sentences, emphasizing its ODBC and JDBC connections. The rest of the page seems to be general support and contact stuff. Pretty sad product homepage.
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"...emphasizing its ODBC and JDBC connections."
Wow, way to be last century CA. They're obviously trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of a drying product through the courts.
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If the damned thing uses SQL, ODBC and JDBC, then why would anyone need to use anything proprietary to export data? Sounds like something anyone with half a brain and an hour's worth of Java experience could do in their sleep, maybe a bit more of the SQL implementation is a little strange (I had to do that with some Pervasive tables once, and just kept throwing join variants via an ODBC connection until it finally delivered the goods).
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
It is possible that they did use CA's JDBC driver and that doing so is precisely the problem. CA may perhaps be claiming that the JDBC driver (or ODBC driver) for their database was used contrary to the licensing agreement.
I hope that this is not the case, for if it is, and if they prevail, then the ramifications are considerable.
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That would indeed be pretty ugly and frightening, considering I've used both ODBC and JDBC to move data between different RDBMS systems for the purposes of migration to new platforms.
I guess one could do a two-step process, dumping to a generic SQL text file, for "backup" purposes, to get around it, but man oh man, that's pretty scary.
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I guess one could do a two-step process, dumping to a generic SQL text file, for "backup" purposes, to get around it, but man oh man, that's pretty scary.
Oh, I dunno; one of my recent big projects was essentially doing that sort of thing. The client wanted to migrate from a small flock of incompatible mainframe DBs (mostly because they'd recently bought a lot of small competitors and wanted to merge them), onto a big flock of networked systems. I liked to tell people that my job was as an official "databa
WTF? I am DBA (okay once upon a time) (Score:2)
WTF really? I am into Database knitting business for long long time (17 years). Never heard of Computer Associates Database product. Okay, I've not RTFA.
Re: (Score:2)
You've never heard of Ingres? They owned it for a while until selling it on.
You'd be surprised at the software which is acquired by large multi-national corps, Oracle being a prime example of "oh what the fuck, they own that?" syndrome.
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Friends of mine were working for Ingres when CA bought them in the mid 90s. If you didn't get laid off or quit, you could only keep your job by signing some ridiculously pro-CA hiring agreement. Lots of bitterness and classic software-industry war stories ensued, like the 15 people on the "really try to keep these critical engineers" list all walking in to HR together to quit, and the general opinion was "Friends don't let CA buy their friends."
Re:Uh... (Score:4, Informative)
it is shit
we are currently migrating away from it
Re:Uh... (Score:5, Funny)
I've heard of this great tool, 2BDB2, which may be able to assist.
You should check into it...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The catch from what I see is that it does convert your database to DB2, but it acts like a DC server to redirect all functions of your current software to the DB2 database. It becomes the interface from your old applications to the DB2 servers. So, you need to run the 2BDB2 software indefinitely. That software mimics the DC product, so that is where the infringement suit comes in. CA may have a case and those clients using it may indeed need to pay CA for licenses. It is not just a pure onetime conversion.
I
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That software mimics the DC product, so that is where the infringement suit comes in. CA may have a case
Unless the software in question used CA source code (which I seriously doubt given that it's not published), no, they almost certainly don't have a case. It's not a crime to reverse engineer or otherwise mimic another software.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not a crime to reverse engineer or otherwise mimic another software.
Maybe not, but that doesn't stop them from suing you. One of the legal principles in American law is that if you have enough financial clout, you can file suit against anyone for any reason, and the worst that will happen to you is that some judge will throw the case out. But that can be delayed for years, and by then the legal costs may bankrupt your victim.
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Maybe, but that also means that even mimicking CAs products is irrelevant to this case. These people could be selling gasoline and never had had anything to do with computers in their lives, and CA could
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That software mimics the DC product, so that is where the infringement suit comes in. [...] If you really wish to migrate off, you need to design new software to interface with the DB2, so once your data is safe on DB2, you will not need 2BDB2 afterward.
And this is different from Wine/libwine... how?
You need to keep running Wine "indefinitely" to run Windows apps under Linux, or "indefinitely" include libwine in your app to recompile an unmodified Windows app to run natively on Linux. If you want a true port, you need to actually extensively modify the original application to use native Linux APIs. And when you use Wine, you don't need to pay for a Windows license.
Why hasn't Microsoft sued the Wine project's asses off, based on the same rhetoric? They've h
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
No it's not. It is California, somewhere near Ontario.
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(I was also momentarily confused as to why California was suing.)
Lock in (Score:5, Insightful)
So now we have lock-in as a respected business practice? What is next? Making it illegal for your users to even look at products of your competitors?
Barrier to Exit strategy (Score:3, Insightful)
This has been a cornerstone of CA strategy for decades, nothing new here. Makes for a predictable renewal revenue stream.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Still being used today, Apple are the masters at it now, look how phenomenally well it's worked for them over the last 6 years or so.
Re: (Score:1)
Please elaborate.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What is next? Making it illegal for your users to even look at products of your competitors?
No, they're going to target advertising next. You're not allowed to advertise to any of their customers with a competing product. Use of terminology relating to the product, such as "database" will be considered infringement on their IP.
Re: (Score:2)
Is that what they are calling hostage and ransom now a days?
Clearly CA is a terrorist criminal if they themselves don't provide such a tool to their users.
What this continues to tell us... (Score:3, Insightful)
If the weight of these patents were different (as in, if the patent system wasn't out of touch with modern applications of software and technology), they wouldn't have so much leverage over each other, and maybe we could get back to innovating instead of litigating.
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Boo hoo CA, I have no sympathy what so ever (Score:2)
Boo hoo CA, I have no sympathy what so ever. Perhaps develop a modern replacement and stop punishing your customers because your db products are comparable with a 1970s bus.
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Main exception being games which wouldn't really make any sense to export.
CA have a database platform? (Score:2)
Databases aren't exactly my thing, but if I was looking in to a database solution, I don't think CA is someone who would come to mind.
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CHeck the article agina and check the timeframe.
transition off CA's Datacom database between 1996 and 1998.
What do you know about databases in 1997? The market at that time was completely different. And even then CA already was buying companies they could maximize profits of by maximizing licencing costs and minimizing support.
CA? The DBase III Guys? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not that it was really ever all that difficult to write a DBase III program to dump the entire database comma separated.
It wasn't [sourceforge.net].
Assume it's in the mainframe world (Score:2)
I assume CA's database is some mainframe beast. Since DB2 also runs on the mainframe and is almost certainly a more modern database, I can see why customers would switch - especially given CA's "think of a number, add the salesman's telephone number and double it" approach to license costs.
Mainframe "databases" can be funny beasts. I worked on an app that used one about 15 years ago, and the database was effectively flat files, index files and an engine on top to hang it all together and make it look like a
Re: (Score:2)
Step 1: Migrate to DB2
Step 2: Migrate DB2 to non-mainframe hardware
Step 3: Scale back or eliminate mainframe expense due to lower usage requirements
Step 4: Maybe not profit, but at least you're spending less.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Step 5: Say goodbye to business continuity
You do have a point - DR and recovery processes tend to be better tested in big mainframe environments, and the environment is often more contained; restore the mainframe and you have all you need.
Moving off to midrange or smaller systems and it's a lot easier to end up with a mess of peripheral systems without the same level of simplicity or control (like discovering that some idiot is storing data on the Citrix server...)
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That depends. The biggest legitimate need for mainframes is when you've got gobs of I/O happening, which could easily be the case for the Main Corporate Database.
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Mainframe "databases" can be funny beasts. I worked on an app that used one about 15 years ago, and the database was effectively flat files, index files and an engine on top to hang it all together and make it look like a RDBMS.
Sounds like SAP, not just on mainframe but how it uses Oracle on x86 hardware too.
OpenIngres (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Heard of it but I didn't think it was even still around.
CA's db is dying? (Score:2)
Quick, somebody get confirmation from Netcraft.
Runs only on big hardware (Score:2, Informative)
From the ca site (http://www.ca.com/us/products/overview.aspx?id={40FB2A1D-9B09-429E-9D52-123477B87E97}):
It is a high-performance, multi-user relational database management system based on z/OS and VSE host platforms.
Unfortunately, although clients can access it from any platform, it's not available for anything else.
Second most popular CA search (Score:3, Insightful)
CA has a database platform?!?!?? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Ummm ... since when??? If you need to process data in industrial quantities, DB2 on the mainframe is an excellent solution. The big advantage of the mainframe version of DB2 has been data sharing (think Oracle RAC on steroids). This technology has recently been extended to Wintel, Linux and Power environments. DB2 is being actively developed, with new features which redefine the cutting edge.
MySQL is a great database which can be used to solve some amazi
CA-Datacom/DB vs 2BDB2 (Score:4, Informative)
The two products are CA-Datacom/DB [wikipedia.org] from Computer Associates and 2BDB2 [2bdb2.com] from ISI.
CA-Datacom was originally developed ADR (Applied Data Research) in the 1980's. It's an inverted-index style database, a design approach which was popular before the SQL model came to dominate DBMS design. CA may claim that Datacom is not dying, but they will be unable to point to a new customer signed in the last 15 years. Pretty much every site which has Datacom installed also has DB2. Having critical data spread across multiple DBMS's is a significant problem, so they want to consolidate to a single DBMS (and it isn't going to be Datacom). CA has been milking Datacom for it's flow of license fees for years. They provide support and keep Datacom working with new releases of z/OS, but otherwise feature growth has been minimal. For instance, CA has failed to develop similar functionality to 2BDB2.
2BDB2 is a transparency layer which simulates Datacom/DB on top of DB2. This allows applications which have been developed for Datacom/DB to actually access DB2, with 2BDB2 translating program calls to Datacom/DB into SQL requests to DB2 and passing the results back. The Datacom/DB app does not have to changed or recompiled (a major advantage as retesting mainframe code is very expensive). 2BDB2 also provides a similar transparency layer for VSAM files.
The litigation between CA and ISI has be running for some years. It started after ISI sold 2BDB2 to some large sites, in particular US Customs (which was the largest Datacom/DB user, and I presume, paid the largest license fees). This dispute is all about screwing the customer so as to continue to receive the cash flow.
Proof is everything (Score:1)
They have to prove the code was made from their code, how can they do this, unless they have access to this code, most others reverse engineer the stuff, why this case only where they think it impossible to do this???
CA Software Hospice (Score:5, Informative)
The business model is:
1) Buy products that are circling the drain
2) Flog said products to the clueless
3) Promise a big party at CA World
4) PROFIT!!!
We have assloads of CA shiteware, our clueless managers just love going to CA World every year. Last year's keynote was that Avatar guy, w00t!
Re: (Score:2)
but is it a metric assload?
CA has a Database product!?!?!? (Score:2)