Can For-Profit Tech Colleges Be Trusted? 557
snydeq found a story questioning "the quality of education on offer at institutions such as University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, and Kaplan in the wake of increasing scrutiny for alleged deceptive practices [PDF] that leave students in high debt for jobs that pay little. 'For-profit schools carry a stigma in some eyes because of their reputation for hard sales pitches, aggressive marketing tactics, and saddling students with big loans for dubious degrees or certificates,' Robert Scheier writes. 'Should IT pros looking to increase their skills, or people seeking to enter the IT profession, consider such for-profit schools? And should employers trust their graduates' skills?'"
as always depends on the person (Score:3)
i know someone who went from zero to a good java dev after going to a similar college with a tech program. otherwise we'll be like europe where if you don't do well on the high school tests they give you will never go to college and never have a chance to change your life in the future
yeah, I don't care about the school (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
I'm doing hiring for my team. I don't care too much about the education: if the candidate can do a decent job on the coding quiz, they could be a Spanish major for all I care.
Dam right. Formal qualifications are not so relevant since books and other sources of knowledge became affordable for all. People who want to learn will and those that don't are not going to be changed by expensive schooling.
Re:yeah, I don't care about the school (Score:5, Funny)
>> Dam right....People who want to learn will and those that don't are not going to be changed by expensive schooling.
I think you meant to spell it as "Damn".
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Mod Parent UP!
That's the real problem. UoP and DeVry turned themselves into diploma mills. They accepted everyone and gave everyone a degree if you paid $80,000+.
Of course every student is different, but the ones that end up at UofP or DeVry are usually the less desirable type.
Before you decide on any college call (or email) the places you want to work and see if they
Re: (Score:3)
Having attended DeVry (I stopped because I ran out of money 3/4 through) and seeing what passed as senior level students, I wouldn't hire a DeVry graduate unless they had other credentials. I gained some knowledge there, but only because I actively sought additional information from professors and helped with several extra-curricular activities revolving around more advanced topics.
For example: one of my classmates was stumped that she couldn't get her Java project to compile. Instead of a .java text file,
Re: (Score:3)
Re:as always depends on the person (Score:5, Interesting)
His degree allowed HR to "check the box" for college education and thus his manager was allowed to interview him and find out that he could be trained as well as tie his own shoes. The customers love him and he often finds very creative solutions to difficult problems. Had he not attended DeVry then he never would have made it past HR or, if he had gotten a job here, it would have been on the production floor.
Re:as always depends on the person (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:as always depends on the person (Score:4, Interesting)
What has traditionally been the case is beyond this. ITT has been in trouble for at least 15 years because it appeared that they aggressively recruited students, encouraged the students to maximize student loans, without any regard to the ability of the student to enjoy any level of success in the program. It seems that University of Phoenix merely expanded this model of student loan harvesting from the technical school to the University. I am sure that ITT and U of Phoenix both provide a valuable educational experience. What I am not so sure of is if they should be allowed to use federal student loans to provide such services.
Here is the thing that I am sure is never told the incoming student at ITT or U of Phoenix or any of the private diploma mills. A federal student loan never goes away. The student has to pay it back. No bankruptcy, no forgiveness. And the loans are relatively high interests rates, which accrues always, even if one has a delay in payment. The 50K many of these instituions charge can easily become 100K. It is easy to argue that such institution exist solely to transfer money from the federal tax payers purse to the coffers of private corporations. I would not do so. I would only say that in a free market in which these private for-profit institutions are competing, why would we need a federal loan program if they were in fact providing value. Sure, for non profit school such things can keep things fair and allow all qualified students to get an education. But if we are not talking qualified student, and any student, I think the private market would make much more reliable decisions. At least the student would be able to declare bankruptcy, and institutions with a high rate of bankruptcies would not longer receive loans. The free market, in this case, would work.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:as always depends on the person (Score:4, Interesting)
"otherwise we'll be like europe where if you don't do well on the high school tests they give you will never go to college and never have a chance to change your life in the future"
When I first moved to France, it was the season when test results were just coming out.
A major paper ran a story about 'What do do if your kid doesn't get into a Top 10 school?'
The answer: enroll them in an IT program, or ship them to America.
Kinda took the wind outta my sails a bit to read that what I'd considered a good career choice (Ok, I went to a Canadian school but still) was the second rate choice here. After spending two more years here, I've realized that it was only partly a jab. While it's true that IT careers are not typically highly regarded over here, it's also true that in both North America, and IT worldwide, your test scores are not considered a primary qualifier for success.
Re: (Score:2)
Add this stat: The fact that 10% of the U.S. Population makes almost 90% of the wealth and the other 90% makes only 10% at an average wage of 31,000 dollars a year; and you now see what maybe the next huge political crisis in the next two decades. Plus no real social safety nets of any kind and no jobs but only given to those that have "connections." You end up with a nightmare scenario for anyone born after the year 1980.
Re: (Score:3)
It's hard to gain credibility... (Score:3)
... when the creators of Robot Chicken make fun of you in their latest series, Titan Maximum:
Willie: I can help! I have a diploma in mechanical engineering!
Palmer: *sarcastically* From DeVry.
Re: (Score:2)
It's also hard to gain credibility when you quote robot chicken.
Good thing I was quoting Titan Maximum, eh?
Non-Profit? (Score:2, Insightful)
All other colleges are non-profit? Harvard is non-profit? Really?
Re:Non-Profit? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly
There's nothing wrong with being for-profit.
But they probably won't charge you 10 years of debt for that, as opposed to the 'big-name' non-profits.
I think the point here... (Score:3)
... is that for-profit colleges have a particularly bad track record of ripping off their students. Some of the horror stories include continuing to auto-register students for classes after they've announced their intent to withdraw, and charging them for it - even though they've long since stopped attending the school. Then the student gets hit with a gigantic bill for an education they haven't even received.
Can non-profit schools rip off students? Sure. But it seems that many for-profit institutions are p
Re:Non-Profit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Non-Profit? (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/04/for-profits-data/ [thinkprogress.org]
* CEOs of for-profit colleges receive up to 26 times the amount of pay that the heads of traditional universities do.
* Many of the schools make up to ninety percent of their revenue from U.S. taxpayers, through the Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, and other federal assistance used by their students. 91.5 percent of Kaplan's revenue comes from the government, along with 88 percent revenue at the University of Phoenix.
* Just 11 percent of higher education students in the country attend for-profit schools, yet they account for 26 percent of federal student loans and 44 percent of student loan defaults.
Re:Non-Profit? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the problem is not flatly "government guaranteed loans", but the predatory for-profit schools who have mastered the acquisition of government-basked student aid (grants and loans). They will accept anyone and inflate their expectations just so they can enroll them in classes (without care for the quality of the classes or the education actually received) so that they can receive government funds through the student.
Re: (Score:3)
If I had mod points, I'd mod up. I came to this conclusion a couple years ago (a couple years after I graduated from a public university) when I noticed more and more 'hobby-like' liberal arts programs, along with much fancier classrooms and hotel-like dorms. Colleges realized that they can sell students on a promise and a dream, and leverage their payment with federally endorsed loans co-signed by the parents. The coming realization for US High Schoolers is going to be that college isn't for everyone, a
Re:Non-Profit? (Score:4, Interesting)
THIS. Where are my mod points? The entire point of a college is to make money; even for state schools. This has become particularly bad in recent years where college has become less about higher learning and more about getting that piece of paper that shows that you payed and are now eligible to do anything beyond grunt work.
I, for one, welcome these "for profit" schools: They are like a parody of the existing system, showing how a diploma is really just about paying the money and playing the game. I am cautiously optimistic that the weakness of their 'shovelware' degrees will wake people up to the fact that every other institution is fundamentally the same.
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of this has to do with the legal definition of what makes profit and non-profit. You won't find Harvard being publicly traded on the NYSE for instance, but you can trade in DeVry stocks (NYSE: DV).
Nonprofits don't share their surplus profits with share holders.
For profit schools are not the only ones (Score:5, Insightful)
that leave students in high debt for jobs that pay little
The majority of liberal arts programs would fall into that category.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
It doesn't matter whether you go to the Ohio State University, Harvard, DeVry, ITT Tech or ANY higher education institution. They ALL want your dollars.....they ALL try and get you in there no matter what including getting you to accept student loans. They ALL do this.....whether they are for profit or not. Anyone who doesn't think so is kidding themselves.
Re: (Score:2)
Well it's your choice
Like it's your choice to buy a hundred thousand dollar gaz-guzzler giant SUV
At least the SUV is cheaper and you can torch it and pretend it was stolen (not that I'm advocating insurance fraud)
Re:For profit schools are not the only ones (Score:5, Insightful)
Liberal Arts programs aren't there to help people make money. In fact, most university degrees weren't (and shouldn't be) designed to create workforce-ready individuals. They exist to create intelligent, educated people who are capable of learning even more after they graduate and putting that knowledge to use in improving life on Earth. (Mileage varies.). The modern Liberal Arts (History, Language, Literature, Political Science, Sociology, Anthropology, Philosophy, etc.) are there to explore humanity for what it was, what it is, and in an effort to prevent past mistakes from repeating themselves.
Ya, that sounds "high fa-lootin'", but that's why universities exist and that's why the curriculum is as it is. It's idealist in that its purpose is to make a better (interpretable) world just by giving people information and teaching them how to analyze and act on it.
Vocational training is completely different. DeVry and ITT Tech (for-profit, vocational colleges) may genuinely offer more reliable, quicker means to getting a well-paying position than a State University liberal arts degree, but they, again, do to different things. DeVry can teach you how to become an electrician's apprentice after which you learn a bunch of skills and make money in the future. Cool. The liberal arts degree can help you understand the world around you. It all depends who you are and what you want from life.
It's also worth noting that there are some very close overlaps between vocational schooling and university training. For example, nursing schools train their students along very similar lines of master's degrees in biology, but just with less expectation of in-depth knowledge and a greater focus on responsibility and accountability. A program in electrical engineering will have very similar concepts taught to a vocational series on becoming an electrician, but the two final products (the more-educated individual) are competent in two very different fields.
There are even certain fields where subjects outright overlap in their academic and vocational training: Teacher training vs. academic studies in Education, Business, Accounting vs. Economics, etc.
No you cant (Score:3)
But you also can't trust public colleges, and for the same reason.
Public colleges in general cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than these tech schools, and the job prospects for 4 year grads are dismal. Go to grad school (especially in something like English, Art, and the Humanities), and your only job prospects are probably working for the same school that gave you the degree.
Even formally "instant upper class" things like law school are not a good payout anymore.
Re:No you cant (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No you cant (Score:5, Informative)
I don't agree with your statements, and neither does this chart. [bls.gov]
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
You just made my overall point - people are making stupid decisions. But they are doing it in public, private, and for profit schools. And the for profits shouldnt be singled out when the problem is endemic to the entire system/industry.
Re:No you cant (Score:4, Interesting)
~$3.6k/year was a decent trade.
Heck, my state's primary college would have only cost me $2k/semester, and they're so well known for genetics/law/CS/Computer-engineering that large portions of my in-state tuition was paid for by bio-engineering patents and second-semester freshmen computer engineers get contacted by Intel/AMD/IBM. Actually, my state uni has listed many years in top 10 world wide in several research and engineering fields.
Aren't all colleges 'for-profit'? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not following this (Score:2)
There are problems in how they recruited students, so the skills of the students who finish are in question? How does one lead to the other?
Re: (Score:2)
Ripoff (Score:2)
DeVry is very expensive (Score:5, Insightful)
DeVry is STEEP for an ABET-T accredited program. One could go to a State school and obtain an ABET-E Engineering degree for a LOT less than the cost of DeVry.
What these colleges have over the State schools; however, is the complete lack of selectivity. They will let just about anyone in, and it'll be up to them to sink or swim. Most of them sink, and some of them swim, and I have no doubt that a very small percentage of bright people, who are otherwise inadmissible to a State School due to circumstances not related to their academic performance, do very well for themselves. That's a tiny tiny percentage though.
It's not all bad, but the lack of selectivity means most students will fail, and do so owing a lot of money. It's not entirely the school's fault. They should, however, raise the admission standards at least a little bit.
Inaction is very expensive (Score:5, Interesting)
...and just showing up isn't good enough.
Most discussions about failure in education fails to note the student's own failure to DO THE WORK.
About 1/3rd of my students fail, not because I'm tough or the material is hard or whatever the usual excuses are - they fail because they just don't do the work! Online quizzes not even opened/started, online discussions not participated in, homework assignments not submitted (not even a "I'm confused" text file as I recommend)...I am very sensitive and responsive to even slight attempts at effort, but if they don't do anywhere close to enough work - and I mean if I gave a 100% on every assignment they did do it still wouldn't hit 60% for the course - then there is nothing anyone else can do for them.
If you are willing to do the work, you can get a fine education at any school at any price.
If you are not willing to do the work, you will fail and lose a lot of money in the process.
And yes, for-profit tech colleges can be trusted. If their product (education) sucked as bad as is implied by the question, they would soon fail because (hey, get this) they didn't do the work.
Re:DeVry is very expensive (Score:5, Insightful)
I got out of teaching because unqualified students who didn't (and never could have) understand what I was talking about expected me to somehow pour knowledge into their heads without any effort on their parts - because, after all, they were PAYING for it, by god. Meanwhile, they were forcing me to present a dumber course to the people who really DID "get it". And the better students were frustrated by the dumber (and slower) level of instruction. Truly a lose/lose situation for all.
Re: (Score:3)
Allowing unqualified students into a classroom simply because they can pay for it has the reverse effect of "a rising tide raises all ships" - 2 or 3 (or 8 or 10) students in a classroom of 25 who don't have the prerequisite knowledge to be there causes NO END of distractions and problems for both the teacher AND the qualified students in the room.
I'm at an age and a point in my career where I could go back to school to study something that interests me for its own sake, and this is exactly why I won't even consider doing it. There's no reason for me to spend an entire semester on material I could teach myself in six weeks just so a bunch of undermotivated assholes can have some slow-motion hand-holding while constantly questioning whether each new item is going to be on the test and whether it has any "real world" utility. The gratification of seein
Re: (Score:3)
Amen to that. I remember taking Java and Autocad (different classes obviously) and in both cases the instructor had to spend a lot of time teaching basic computer skills. I ended up nearly failing Autocad in large part because the instructor spent so much time teaching basic computing skills that there wasn't time to actually cover the course material. Or get clarification about the expectations for various projects.
I wonder what sort of a person thinks they can program or use a complicated computer program
Short answer: No (Score:5, Informative)
Long answer: In the United States at least, if you have no college degree but are interested in putting in the time, money, and effort needed to get one, you will get the biggest bang for your buck at your local community college, possibly followed by some time spent at a nearby branch of your state university system. It's not MIT, RIT, Caltech, Stanford, etc, but it's going to be a pretty solid college education at a very reasonable price, and cost considerably less than the clowns at ITT or DeVry or University of Phoenix will charge you.
The only real exception to this rule is if you qualify for significant financial aid that allows you to attend a fantastic technical school at the same or lower cost than your government-run schools.
Re: (Score:2)
RIT is a tier down from the others listed, both in terms of prestige and price. It is probably a much better bang for your buck.
Re: (Score:2)
Is it anymore? Since they went to semesters the retention rate shot way up, not a good sign.
I wonder if I can get some of my money back now that they are trying to devalue its name.
Re:Short answer: No (Score:5, Informative)
At least with even a community college, there's a good chance that many or most of your earned credits, especially at the 100 or 200 level, will transfer.
In Virginia... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
There's some knowledge based jobs out there that don't fall in that category, but there was a story today about those going away to computers and outsourcing...
School isn't as easy as everything thinks. People always point to guys that work two jobs and go through school, ignoring the fact those guys are
Re: (Score:3)
But don't underestimate the value of being in a really smart peer-group at a high-quality university. I might have covered the same material if I'd gone to a community college, but man, finally being with people who were both really smart and really motivated academically was an awesome change and an awesome challenge.
Not just for-profits (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Are the Ivies and top10 any different? (Score:3)
The most refined form of socialism practiced in USA in the admission/financial aid policies of the Ivies. It is all, "If you have the money pay the full price even if you are the top student being admitted. If you don't have money you a get a full free ride, even if you are at the bottom of the admitted students".
The really rich dont care. The poor dont care they get benefited. It is the frugal middle who did all the right things, who took sensible size mortgage, squirreled away the money, took less expensive vacations and cheaper cars and did everything your grandma told you to do, are being punished for good behavior. With incentive system so warped, is there any surprise America is on the decline?
Re:Are the Ivies and top10 any different? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
...
The really rich dont care. The poor dont care they get benefited. It is the frugal middle who did all the right things, who took sensible size mortgage, squirreled away the money, took less expensive vacations and cheaper cars and did everything your grandma told you to do, are being punished for good behavior. With incentive system so warped, is there any surprise America is on the decline?
This is one of the best descriptions of this problem I've seen lately. The middle class in America is getting laid off and losing their houses in exchange for studying hard and getting a degree then working hard once they got a job. The rich are still rich, and the lower-class, aside from immigrants, is largely made up of people who are content to accept the quality of life that a trailer and a welfare check brings. ... This is depressing.
Re: (Score:2)
That is a pretty uninformed rant. Ever heard of early admissions or legacy? We've had 2 recent Presidents who lucked up into Ivy enrollments and gentleman-C'd their ways to big fat Golden Ticket that is an Ivy league degree. The Ivy League schools are still powered by privilege. I'm also assuming that never had to worry about paying for college if you think that people without the money for tuition magically get a free ride.
College aid for poor students is so that kids with parents either unblessed with
Well, yes, they are different (Score:2)
Sure, elite colleges are quite expensive, and the cost-benefit relationship in a lot of cases is way out of whack. But at least with an elite college you can 1) be reasonably sure you're at least going to get a top-quality education out of the deal, and 2) not worry too much that the university is actively trying to steal from you. The quality of education you get out of, say, ITT Tech or Kaplan is sometimes dubious, and such institutions have been known to use shady tactics like continuing to auto-register
Re: (Score:2)
But meanwhile you don't pay rent. Also, paying rent wont give you something to resell.
Heard from a graduate of both (Score:2)
My father has attended both "public" colleges and for-profit colleges and says that both seem to offer very similar educations and difficulty of completion. He's gotten degrees from each (a bit of an over-achiever at times) and hasn't had any problems regarding the pedigree of his degrees when it comes to finding jobs or contracts.
Maybe for-profit colleges do lead to a higher loan default rate, but that could be because a lot of the people defaulting on the loans are people who just weren't ready or able t
Never trust nobody (Score:2)
The quality of the many recent graduates I interview from traditional colleges and universities is atrocious. They have no analytical skills what so ever and expect to come in making big bucks and leading projects. The ones that I did hire sit around all day worrying about how they could have used super duper new programming paradigm X and take forever to complete what should be simple development tasks. They shut down if a design spec given by a customer is not perfect rather than working with the custo
At least they posted the corrected version (Score:2)
The original report was overly harsh and quickly got picked apart for purposefully twisted wording. Regardless, the report is highly flawed because it attempts to attribute a problem to all for profits while the investigators targeted four specific for profits. In other words, they cherry picked.
Worse, after they used the original report to generate a lot of negative press once the updated report was put out very little was mentioned of the change. Basically it was a tool of some agenda driven politician
No different than most schools (Score:2)
On the other hand, my cousin is an optometrist. Her school loans topped $100k, she has to work 2-3 part time jobs just to fill her time, and non
I went to ITT... (Score:2)
Employers and Trust (Score:2)
I used to work at an internationally renowned medical facility who regularly treats world leaders. They actively encouraged employees to enroll in online campuses such as the University of Phoenix and Kaplan, to continue their educational development and help further their careers. I know several IT professionals there who started off answering phones at the help desk for $12/14 and hour and now through online education and hard work are now managers earning $90-100K+ after only 10 years. It comes down to t
White Collar Votech Schools (Score:4, Interesting)
Many years ago Vocational Technical schools churned out welders, plumbers, electricians, and all sorts of other skilled trades by the boatload. Not everyone was cut out to be a white collar employee, and so if you didn't go to college you could choose these schools to learn a trade and get the skills necessary to get a good job.
These programs have fallen by the wayside along with America's manufacturing. We don't need as many of those workers, so we don't train them.
There is a new economy though, an information economy. Yesterdays Professional Engineers are today's MCSE's and CCIE's designing information systems. These high end jobs still require a college education, as much for the non-technical (e.g. communications) skills as for their technical parts.
For each one of the architects of the information age there are hundreds of technicians. Just like a P.E. may have designed building built by a crew of 1,000 skilled workers in the past, today an information architect designs a data center built by hundreds. These "for profit colleges" specialize in associates (2 year) degrees with the tech skills necessary to fill these jobs. They tech the technical bits, but go really light on the reading, writing, and math skills that would actually give people the fundamentals; just like VoTech schools of old. The welder of old didn't need to know at a 14" beam was required for the weight load and how to calculate it, just how to lay down a perfect bead. The information tech of today doesn't need to know why there's a three layer switching fabric, just how to run Cat5 cables and test them.
Where the "for profit colleges" mislead people is they want them to think they are getting the same education as a 4 year traditional college. They are not. Look at the curriculum online or talk to people who have attended one. These institutions teach you how to do, not how to think.
Somehow it became stigmatized to have not attended college. Never mind that I've seen plenty of 6 figure skilled tradesmen, and seen plenty of 4 year college graduates struggle to get a $40k job. If these schools marketed themselves as VoTech they would be more honest, but no one would go. They are forced into marketing themselves as something they are not, and then folks are surprised, and disappointed with the output.
I've done both (Score:2)
I wasn't saddled with heavy
Just educate them (Score:2)
I know a lot of educators, and some of them said they are routinely shocked by college administration because they've heard some form of the phrase, "We don't train them for work; we just want to educate them," too many times.
Here is the point: You go to college, you get educated.
You are not useful.
You are educated.
I know a lot about meditation, and about Go, and about philosophy. That... would be useful if all of society knew about that kind of thing, because society is a mess. As a job skill, thou
Worthless Degrees (Score:2)
While I'm sure the folks at these colleges are learning *something*, I never found that they were really learning much that was useful to me as an employer. Their "computer science" courses are generally about the sorts of things one can learn on the web. I need people who will use the web to learn stuff on the job. I need the school to teach them the stuff they're not likely to learn by just googling it. They're also often taught by other equally uneducated people in the industry. I never hired someone
Computer Learning Center (Score:2)
Ok, so this is a few years ago and anecdotal but there you go.
I got out of the Army in 82, spent a year doing odd jobs before landing a part time programming position in BASIC. In 1985 I went to Computer Learning Center to get better. Better training than the hobby and part time stuff I'd been doing and a chance at a better paying, full time job. The FORTRAN instructor was very good in teaching programming. The COBOL instructor was a screw-up who threw up on the grade book after a night of partying (the sta
I know someone who teaches at one of these... (Score:2)
They say it is a very sad state of affairs because the practice of taking advantage of poor and undereducated people is all too common. This particular person teaches English and states that they are blown away by the lack of fundamental grammar and even spelling skills. That being said, if you don't have a command over language, how will you ever understand that these schools are in fact, *for* profit (for someone at least) and they do not have people's best interests in mind?
The b
Herzing grad... (Score:2)
I went to Herzing. It was on par with UW:Madison tuition. After ~$25,000 in debt I had an associate degree and two bachelor degrees, although I maxed out my transfers/test outs.
At the time, their associates CS program was, IMO, one of the BEST systems to produce entry level programmers/consultants I've seen. I've gone to a number of other universities and public schools (while in the military, including military CS training), and I would have had no qualms hiring any of the recent grads from their assoc CS
Colleges are businesses. (Score:5, Insightful)
I graduated from a good private university, went off to get a tech job in the finance sector and make very good money. Having been down that road now, I realize what all colleges do -- "for profit" or not. They are businesses out to make money.
First, they steer you towards bad loans. For example in New Jersey, the financial aid office steers you towards "NJClass" loans that have a 7% interest rate. You can do better if you go down to your local bank, or even shop around online. But the college gets a cut from this, so they offer you the NJClass loan. The prices you pay, especially for private schools, don't come NEAR what you will be worth in any amount of time. If you assume no scholarships (and I had a half scholarship -- more on that later), a good school can run you anywhere from $15k to $40k a year -- the former for a public state school, and the latter for a private school. Things are variable of course, whether you commute or dorm, but the minimum you can look at nowadays is about $15k, even commuting.
I commuted to a private university with a half scholarship, and 5 years and a major change later, I graduated 65k in debt from school. I however, am one of the luckier ones as I have a real skill and work in an industry that while full of bad ethics, pays really well. I still pay about $450 a month on my loans, and that's after consolidating and everything else. If you figure that a college graduate that comes out of school will make less than a six figure salary, that $450 is going to be debilitating to pay back. And odds are, it will be even higher just because financial firms have gotten more twisted and turned over the years. Remember how the sub prime mortgages got bundled up and sold off as good loans to other people? It happens with school loans TOO. The bank has no reason to keep the loans, and in the 10 years I've been paying back my loans, I have had six different lenders.
The only thing we can do as parents (if you are one, as I am), is to steer your kids to making good choices and spend less money on their education. The return simply doesn't work out well in their favor, especially with the debt load they will likely have to carry. Community college for two years, then a decent school for another two, and graduate with as little debt as possible. I am one of the lucky ones as I said; I have a six figure salary, I have a really good resume, I am good at what I do and I enjoy it to boot. Not everybody is that lucky, and the really unfortunate part is that it will affect their lives in a profound way, while Wall Street (and the industry I work for) will profit handsomely as they help shrink the middle class even more than they already are.
If you want to take a real stand, write your senator and get the allowance for federal student loans raised to a higher level. It's easier to repay a 1.5 or 2% loan than a 7% with variable interest and lots of legalese you can't follow.
Yes and No: As an Instructor (Score:4, Interesting)
While teaching at a nationwide chain of tech schools, I personally found the certificate programs to be of dubious value based on their high-cost, almost $14,000, and the mandated grading structure in which students that completed software guided "labs" and had daily attendance were mathematically incapable of receiving a failing grade. I also felt like admissions/recruitment staff overstated the value of the program, but that most students had more sober expectations than our marketing hype suggested.
(Note: I've found the actual degree track AS/AA or BA/BS or Masters programs to be of significantly higher quality. Granted, having gone to a large Midwestern university, I find the for-profit "college" experience to lack some of the extra-curricular qualities that I think heavily contribute to quality college education. Particularly at the AS/AA level, I find the career-ed (tech) coursework to be similar to accelerated CC offerings.)
While I felt the program was not in the interest of the student (and eventually resigned), I will admit that it did serve a population that would have been likely to fail in the community college environment. Additionally, it did give them minimal exposure to the industry that they would have otherwise had a difficult time getting. The most valuable service was career placement, in which most of them got jobs at very rudimentary scripted help desks, which could get them enough "experience" to get past the HR goons and maybe get some attention with vendor certs or good interviewing toward more hands-on tech gigs.
Granted, as I've sat on hiring boards, I would find the certificate alone to be of minimal value, and would identify more strongly with an untrained applicant who showed similar skills through self-education (e.g. repairing family computers, experimented with Linux, authored simple web pages) on the basis that self-education can be extremely valuable with a good on-the-job training program.
I try to make it a point to discourage college certifications (and to set realistic vendor certification expectations) and push the AS as being far more valuable to employers that also opens the door to 4 year schools should they decide to go. Most of the counselors at the for-profit or non-profit community colleges generally tend to encourage students to simply do whatever they've already chosen to do, which is usually certification as a low-hanging fruit, as most simply want to avoid the general education courses.
Unfortunately, the for-profit schools are doing a far better job of providing instruction of any quality that is often more ideal for working individuals. Working two jobs (FT programmer, PT instructor) and living fairly far from any university, has made me use University of Phoenix for my MBA program. As a student, compared to other peers taking programs in low-middle quality state-schools, I find UOP's offering to be comparable on content. That said, I do think that the accelerated nature does cause some topics to be handled superficially, and without proper self-motivation, promptly forgotten.
All Schools are for some kind of profit (Score:2)
Why would you say something as stupid as that? Did you not pay for your schooling, or do you have no schooling?
End of story, let us ALL ignore your accomplishments. Sound good?
Re: (Score:2)
Why would you say something as stupid as that? Did you not pay for your schooling, or do you have no schooling?
End of story, let us ALL ignore your accomplishments. Sound good?
Lots of people pay nothing for their schooling. For example, many Europeans (e.g. those in countries where education is completely free) and students whose education is paid for by charities, scholarships etc.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Education is never free and those who receive a "free" education seldom appreciate it as much as the one who had to earn (and pay for) that education. That said educational institutions are far too costly in the US IMO.
Re:All Schools are for some kind of profit (Score:5, Insightful)
those who receive a "free" education seldom appreciate it as much as the one who had to earn (and pay for) that education.
Please support your ideological thesis with a statement of fact.
I believe there to be millions of Doctors and Engineers with publicly-funded educations, in nations all over the world, that appreciate this very much. As do the societies in which they live.
Of course, they are not so unfortunate, as to live in the United States.
Re: (Score:3)
Facts. Do you know what they are? Jeremiah asked you to support your ideological thesis with a statement of fact, and you reply with more opinion. You think that people who received a free education seldom appreciate it as much as one who had to earn and pay for that education. Okay. I think that is an utterly stupid statement, with no basis in fact, even with the qualifiers. I will state my opinion: people appreciate their education for what it brings them, not for what it cost, because everyone has to wor
Re: (Score:3)
Since nearly everyone is going to get some college, one would think the tuition rates would hold the line with inflation however many schools are raising tuition costs almost as much as the 400% health insurance has gone up in the last decade.
The college I went to in 1997 was $15,000 a year tuition it is now $40,000 a year.
Can not for profit schools afford to keep up that kind of inflation?
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All Schools are for some kind of profit (Score:4, Insightful)
Ahahaha, oh my. Did you just mention Adam Smith? Have you read "Wealth of Nations?" No, don't answer that. I know you haven't. Let me quote some Adfam Smith to you, my friend, and we will see how long it takes for you to start calling him a commie. I guarantee after I am done here, you will never attempt to drop that name again.
"Laws and government may be considered in this and indeed in every case as a combination of the rich to oppress the poor, and to preserve to themselves the inequality of the goods which would otherwise be soon destroyed by the attacks of the poor, who if not hindered by the government would soon reduce the others to an equality with themselves by open violence. The government and laws hinder the poor from ever acquiring the wealth by violence which they would otherwise exert on the rich; they tell them they must either continue poor or acquire wealth in the same manner as they did."
You like that one? I'm just getting started. This next one is a bit of a long passage, but oh so worth the read:
"His employers constitute the third order, that of those who live by profit. It is the stock that is employed for the sake of profit, which puts into motion the greater part of the useful labour of every society. The plans and projects of the employers of stock regulate and direct all the most important operations of labour, and profit is the end proposed by all those plans and projects. But the rate of profit does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension of the society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin.
His employers constitute the third order, that of those who live by profit. It is the stock that is employed for the sake of profit, which puts into motion the greater part of the useful labour of every society. The plans and projects of the employers of stock regulate and direct all the most important operations of labour, and profit is the end proposed by all those plans and projects. But the rate of profit does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension of the society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin.
Their superiority over the country gentleman is, not so much in their knowledge of the public interest, as in their having a better knowledge of their own interest than he has of his. It is by this superior knowledge of their own interest that they have frequently imposed upon his generosity, and persuaded him to give up both his own interest and that of the public, from a very simple but honest conviction, that their interest, and not his, was the interest of the public. The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public.
To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers. To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the interest of the public; but to narrow the competition must always be against it, and can serve only to enable the dealers, by raising their profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own benefit, an absurd tax upon the rest of their fellow-citizens.
To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers. To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the interest of the public; but to narrow the competition must always be against it, and can serve only to enable the dealers, by raising their profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own benefit, an absurd tax upon the rest of their fellow-citizens."
Good stuff, huh? He is saying that his "invisible hand" only applies to land owners and laborers (the first two of his three class
Re:All Schools are for some kind of profit (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow. He did not believe that the free market knows best, as demonstrated from the quotes! He thought of a free market differently than you do, he recognized that a market needs regulations in order to stay free. His work must be understood in the context of mercantilism, which he disagreed with, but he did not disagree with government regulation in general.
However, I will concede the point that education costs money, and while an education may be free to the individual, society still pays the cost. And when education is free, it is free regardless of whether the outcome involves the recipient of the education getting a better job. Finally, as I mentioned, education is a positive externality, and a free market will not allocate enough resources towards education.
What I will not concede, however, is that there exists any rational adult who is confused on what the term "free education" means. I highly doubt anyone believes teacher's pay and the cost of schools and books just materialize out of thin air, so your entire diatribe against free education is meaningless. Anyone who is capable of understanding that already does. You just wasted everyone's time in order to attempt to denigrate the role of government in education. At least you walked it back into the realm of sanity by the end, so I guess my work here is done. See you next time!
Re: (Score:3)
Most colleges/universities in the US are run as non-profit organizations. Their mission is to educate.
The Devry/Kaplan/Phoenix schools are for-profit companies. Their mission is to increase shareholder value.
So, while all schools charge tuition, and both types of schools seek to educate and not lose money, their aims are significantly different.
Re: (Score:3)
Epic fail. All school are not for profit. Thanks for playing.
Epic fail epic fail. Everything - almost literally save for some genuine hippie communes where free love is still the rule - has money associated with it. Whether "for profit," "not for profit," or "non-profit" someone is making money, taking a salary, or otherwise benefiting from it, and therefore "monetary gain = untrustworthy" applies.
Furthermore, I know three Yale PhDs - two of which you could have either seen on Discovery Channel or read in Nat Geo or Smithsonian magazines - who are having a hard time
Re: (Score:2)
"Never trust salesmen" is good advice (especially in the used market like amazon or ebay).
I would just add:
- Penn State, Maryland State, Virginia Tech, etc are ALSO salesmen
Re: (Score:2)
Well, you can trust them to try to get as much money for as little product as possible. (Though I do have to disagree that this is universally applicable. There are still some remnants of "honest business" out there that have not been eaten by the beast yet.)
So how long until Congress cuts away the GAO? It seems to be getting in the way of fleecing the undesirables back into indentured servitude here...
Re:well (Score:4, Insightful)
People don't understand what 'non-profit' means. All it means, is that it meets certain requirements as declared by the IRS that affects how it pays taxes.
There are employees who make MILLIONS OF DOLLARS while working for a non-profit organization. There are non-profit organizations that use hard-sale tactics. There are certainly public universities that do this. That employee people whose sole job is to market the school and/or the degree they are selling to CHILDREN.
My public university actually decided to bull-doze parking lots because someone did some math and declared that, 'If we had less parking, more students would park illegally, and we'd net $x million of dollars over y years.' So they tore it out. I'm also 100% convinced the average starting salaries for my major were grossly inflated. I even worked at our 'telefund' while I was a student. That was the Universities calling center that would call up former students and try to get them to give us money. We were even instructed on how to 'Get them talking about the old 'ol days' so they'd be less likely to say No. And, if you have a transcript mailed to any address (that isn't another university) - even if it's not yours - they will send junk mail to that address trying to get donations and sell homecoming tickets and alumni vacation packages. You can't stop the mailings. Even when you say, 'Look, I don't live there, the people that do were just friends who let me crash there for a few weeks while I was trying to get a job. They don't want the junk mail. Stop sending it. Please. Here is my new address, send it here'.
It's all about $$$. For-profit colleges and universities just haven't jumped through enough hoops (ahem, $$$) to get recognized as a 'real' school yet. The accreditation bodies are even worse than the universities. And thanks to Federal Student Loans, anyone can get as much money as they want. 'You want to major in Art History? And you want 70k in loans each year? Sure!'.
Re: (Score:3)
Around here we call them puppy mills. You wouldn't believe how many Devry graduates I have interviewed over the years that thought their MCSE and Devry Certificate was their prerequisite to writing their own ticket. I had one get really angry with me when he came back after not being hired, I explained I was really looking for experience over paper and suggested he intern somewhere or try to hook on with a larger firm that had "entry level" positions. When hiring I usually come up with a short "quiz" mai
Re: (Score:2)
It can be a stepping point....if you know WHAT the heck your doing. Certs from ANY vendor mean diddly if you can't do the job. Degrees CAN help....EVEN from DeVry but you must STILL be able to do the job. Nothing is automatic.
With that said, I think ALL colleges....public and private...charge WAY too much. I am going to rack up 30,000+ of debt and then only make 40-50K per year? You kidding me?? Going to Med or Law School is even worse. In those you will rack up close to 500K in debt....before you ha
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
These paper mill "schools", ITT, DeVry, etc., they're not a very good value for your money. So, they have a few choices here:
A) Bust their butts and make their schools better.
B) Eventually go out of business.
Charter schools are the same. They either do well or they are shut down and replaced with something else. If school vouchers were provided and parents were allowed to choose where their kids went to school then I don't think that people would willingly send their kids to a dump. Good schools would thriv
Re: (Score:3)
bureaucracy is the primary focus of public schools.
In a word....BULLCRAP!
Nobody goes into teaching because they enjoy bureaucracy. Stupid comments like that are nothing more than Republican talking points meant to demonize public schools so that for-profit schools look good in comparison.
Nice try Glenn Beck.
Re: (Score:3)
"Every time you have a computer science/engineering major take a mandatory art/etc. class, you harm them. They could have used that time to graduate earlier and be less in debt. They could have used that time to take another class in their field. There's supposedly been an outcry of "Engineering students can't write!", or "We need more well-rounded graduates!". I say "supposedly" because I've only ever heard academia refer to it, never an employer,"
I couldn't agree more. I have been saying for ages (since h