'G20 Geek' Byron Sonne Cleared of Explosives Charges 278
New submitter davegravy writes "Byron Sonne, the Toronto-based security consultant, chemistry hobbyist, and geek who was arrested leading up to the Toronto G-20 for alleged plans to bomb the event, has been found not guilty of all charges. Sonne was held in prison for 11 months without receiving bail, and the ruling comes two years after his arrest. Sonne is considered by many in the Toronto security community as a champion of civil rights and a sharp critic of security theatre."
Unfair (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Unfair (Score:5, Interesting)
What I want to know is, where is /. user "Americano" now?
He was all over the original story of the arrest, stating that Sonne must have done something wrong, because the police don't arrest people for no reason.
Choice quotes include:
Think of the black eye to Canada (and especially their law enforcement), if this were shown to be trumped up charges over a guy with a cell phone, a can of gas in his garage, and a couple walkie talkies? They'd be laughed at as a bunch of Keystone Kops for years over this.
and
Your scenario, where it's just a bunch of crooked cops looking to railroad some guy for a crime he didn't commit, while no doubt appealing to the "IANAL, but I play one on Slashdot!" crowd, simply doesn't pass the test of logic. It would require dozens, perhaps hundreds, of law enforcement and judiciary personnel to be corrupt to the point of downright evil in order for that to happen. Is it *possible*? Sure, just about anything is. But it's not *likely* that that many people would wake up and, in the midst of Canada being in an international press spotlight, decide to ruin someone's life just for the fun of it.
I guess he's not here, because he doesn't want to be laughed at like a bunch of Keystone Kops......
Re:Unfair (Score:5, Insightful)
It would require dozens, perhaps hundreds, of law enforcement and judiciary personnel to be corrupt to the point of downright evil in order for that to happen.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.
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At a sufficient level of incompetence, you don't realize that you are being malicious. You are so incompetent you cannot even see your own malice.
Most people do not take others into consideration when going about their daily lives. The person that cut you off on the road today? They didn't PLAN to do that to you. They were just on their cell phone, drinking a cup of coffee, eating a burrito and checking their GPS. You, in that car behind and to the right of them, didn't even enter into their calculatio
Re:Unfair (Score:4, Interesting)
Awww, apparently I hurt somebody's feelings! I'd apologize, but then, I'm not sorry. I stand by my original statements: the police didn't arrest him for no reason, these were NOT trumped up charges, this man was NOT railroaded into jail because police wanted an arrest. This was a case of a man deliberately setting out to probe the efficacy of security for the G-20 summit by purchasing chemicals used in bomb making, again - *in an attempt to prove that the security for the G-20 summit was ineffective.* In essence, he was betting that security wouldn't take notice of his activities... and he lost his bet.
Mr. Sonne went out of his way to purchase specific chemicals that are integral components in bomb-making. He went out of his way to express his intentions to "test security" at the G-20 summit. Security took notice of those activities (which he apparently assumed they wouldn't), and they responded as if he posed a threat to bomb the G-20 summit (which was exactly what he tried to make it look like he was thinking of doing). Those chemicals were purchased in sufficient quantities that, if combined, could have created several kilos worth of explosive material (as testified by an explosives expert during the case [torontosun.com]).
And technically, I'm just one person - I wouldn't be laughed at "like a bunch of Keystone Kops" - I'd be laughed at "like a Keystone Kop." But I'm glad something I wrote here was memorable enough that you're this incensed about it 2 years later. You stay beautiful, and let's do this again in 2014, okay?
Re:Unfair (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Unfair (Score:5, Insightful)
Mr. Sonne went out of his way to purchase specific chemicals that are integral components in bomb-making.
So what? Not illegal to purchase those components if you aren't making a bomb. In fact, it isn't even illegal to buy those things even if you're "thinking about" making a bomb. Possessing these things isn't a crime unless he actually builds a bomb. He didn't build a bomb, never had any intention of building a bomb, and the cops KNEW full-well he had no intention of building a bomb.
So why the charges, if not to silence a critic?
He went out of his way to express his intentions to "test security" at the G-20 summit.
Not illegal. Ever heard of "Freedom of Speech?"
Security took notice of those activities (which he apparently assumed they wouldn't), and they responded as if he posed a threat to bomb the G-20 summit (which was exactly what he tried to make it look like he was thinking of doing).
More like they saw that a guy who'd been criticizing them publicly for ineffective security regimens and saw an opportunity to tarnish his reputation and chill his speech in the future by branding him a terrrorist. Even though he's been acquitted, the damage is done: In the narrow-minds of many this man is now a "terrorist" and damaged goods as a security analyst. ...All because he criticized the wrong person.
And really, how anybody can claim it is anything else than that is beyond me: Almost every advanced nation factors a defendants INTENT to commit a crime into the equation of whether they're guilty or not. In no scenario can anybody claim this guy had intent to blow anything up: He's said he never intended to, and no investigator when pressed has EVER presented evidence he intended to build a bomb. This is a "wink-and-nod" between the cops involved to strike-back at somebody who is critical of their security-theater gravy-train--nothing more.
Re:Unfair (Score:4, Insightful)
So what? Not illegal to purchase those components if you aren't making a bomb. In fact, it isn't even illegal to buy those things even if you're "thinking about" making a bomb. Possessing these things isn't a crime unless he actually builds a bomb. He didn't build a bomb, never had any intention of building a bomb, and the cops KNEW full-well he had no intention of building a bomb.
This is a slightly weaker version of the amusing libertarian argument often seen on slashdot about assassinating the President (or whovever). It's not illegal to own a gun, it's not illegal to make threats against someone, it's not illegal to transport your weapon to somewhere near where the President will be, it's not illegal to set up your weapon with the sights zeroed in on the balcony where he will be appearing...and so on.
The conclusion is that nothing is illegal except actually shooting the President, and therefore no on ecan do anything to stop it. Even if the Secret Service saw the weapon in place, they would be acting illegally and infringing on his rights to free speech, and to bear arms, if they prevented him from doing anything.
Meanwhile, in the real world, if you make comments about bombs, and buy bomb making materials, you're lucky not to end up in jail for twenty years charged with conspiracy to commit terrorist acts.
Although, again for the libertarians, there's no such crime as conspiracy anyway, as it's all just free speech until someone is actually killed.
Re:Unfair (Score:5, Insightful)
What sort of response would you have the police make?
You do realize it is possible to have an investigation and not file criminal charges, right? That there is no requirement to file criminal charges just because there has been an investigation, correct? That prosecutors aren't just "allowed" but are "expected" to not file charges in unwinnable cases because the defendant in question is somebody who has ridiculed them publicly for years. Don't you?
That prosecutors and cops pressing an un-winnable case to the hilt, and just happen to be doing so against somebody who has been criticizing them publicly for years is a pretty large coincidence. But you're right, I'm sure his years-long criticism of Canadian anti-terrorism "security" theater had nothing to do with the reason he was used (correctly) to "send a message" to anybody else that might say the "wrong" things and "reveal our weaknesses" to "terrorists."
You're right, nothing to see here: Big Brother always knows whats best, and ours is not to reason why.
Re:Unfair (Score:4, Insightful)
As for the 11 months in jail, a divorce, loss of future career, hmm penalties for criticising security theatre and attempting to short circuit the creation of a police state. The arrest was all about silencing a critic and nothing to do with justice. When out of control law enforcement had access to everything in his house, they knew, they 100% totally know they were in error, the only reason they kept going was they didn't want to admit fault and felt that regardless of the truth they could get away with a false prosecution under a poorly written law.
A new criminal trial should start, one targeted at the officers in question, they who purposefully abused the trust placed in them in order to pursue personal agendas that had nothing to do with law and justice.
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"Awww, apparently I hurt somebody's feelings! I'd apologize, but then, I'm a trolling jerk"
- There, fixed it for ya.
Two things spring to mind.
1) 2 years later, and you're still trolling the same topic.. how sad is that?
2) You wrote the GP post anyway.. your postings from 2 years ago are, lets face it, not memorable to anyone but yourself.
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I personally know someone who was involved in this case, and even the judge realized the crown was stretching a lot of information. The crown refused to give on even the most trivial matters. You can find more information here: http://freebyron.org [freebyron.org] and all the notes on the trial here: https://github.com/colah/ByronTrialNotes/blob/master/days.md [github.com]
A lot of things in your house are "bomb making materials." Just because his hobby dealt with (perfectly legal) rockets, doesn't mean he did anything wrong. Do you
Could have been worse... (Score:5, Interesting)
At least he got a trial.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
At least he got a trial.
Yeah. In Canada. Meanwhile, next door [theatlantic.com]...
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, don't worry - even the guys in Gitmo get trials. If they're found guilty, they're either executed or locked up forever. If they're found not guilty, they go back into prison until the prosecution finds something else to charge them with. It's completely fair!
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
Either they're civilians or they're POWs either way there are rules that we need to be following. This "they're enemy combatants" is basically a way of saying "they have no rights, not even the ones what we all got together and agreed that everyone has. We will do whatever we want with them; torture, endless imprisonment, sexual and religious humiliation, it doesn't matter because we have declared that the rules don't apply to them. It's bullshit. It's the kind of thing that America (home of the free) is supposed to be better than and it makes me personally ashamed of how my nation is treating human beings.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
“Unlawful combatants” is political speak, an attempt to create a new category that does not exist, so that the government can say that these people have no rights.
The Geneva Conventions have many different categories: enemy soldiers, enemy civilians, enemy civilians who have taken up weapons, enemy spies, criminals. The categories may not be mutually exclusive, but they are exhaustive. And all of them have rights. Their treatment will vary depending upon their category. But none of them are to be tortured. None of them are to be starved. None of them are to be treated unfairly. All are to receive appropriate medical care. And once the war is over (remember “Mission Accomplished”?), they are not to be detained indefinitely.
Your own Declaration of Independence affirms that these people have rights, because all people have rights:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ...
Emphasis mine. Your Declaration of Independence, and your Constitution, apply not just to US citizens, but to all people, everywhere. Go read your country’s founding documents. They are things of beauty. It is a shame that people like you do not understand the noble ideals that your country was founded upon, and that US citizens do not force their government to uphold those ideals.
Re: (Score:3)
It applies to all people not because of what it says, but because of who the constitution applies to.
It is only a list of powers granted to the government and a few critical (but incomplete) prohibitions/limitations.
In otherwords, if it isn't in the Constitution, the US government should NOT be doing it, regardless of the nationality of the person they are 'doing it to'.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:4, Informative)
The US Constitution does NOT apply to you, me or any 'one' person. The Constitution applies only to the government. It is the set of rules with the government must follow to be considered legitimate.
It's a mistake that is commonly made, and a dangerous one for people to believe since the document was NEVER intended to be some sort of protection of the people. There are a few affirmations, but the document itself is only a limited list of authorities granted to the government.
It grants us (the people) nothing. Everything we have, we have had regardless of the Constitution.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Informative)
No. In reality, lawful combatants who are captured become POWs and are entitled to one set of rights. Unlawful combatants (aka civilians with guns) who are captured are not entitled to the rights of a POW, but ARE entitled to the rights of a civilian. There is no category that is not entitled to any rights.
The fact that the U.S. government chooses to ignore those rights brings a mark of shame that will take quite a while to fade.
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Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone has human rights. That's why they are called human rights, all humans have them.
You can call them "unlawful combatants" but they are either civilian criminals or POWs. Not giving them any rights, torturing and treating them as sub human just shames yourselves.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:4, Interesting)
Because many of them were grabbed on the say-so of a warlord who they dared to stand up against.
We established bounties, then took the people accused with no evidence except for the say so of someone that is actually a problem for us, payed a bounty, and took them to gitmo.
Perhaps I am being bold when i say a satirical article offering 1,000,000 afghan dinars (is that what they use?) for the assassination of Clinton does not make one a terrorist, and yet, the writer of the article ended up in gitmo (it was in response to Clinton's bounty on Osama, and not really much money). This was a man who was trouble for those taking power in the absence of the taliban, and an ally to a democratic afghanistan.
Many if not most of the people in gitmo are farmers who dared to make an honest living and not submit to warlords, as we deported them indefinitely we paid the warlords for the tip.
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:4, Informative)
We now have two choices: Gitmo is NOT unconstitutional, or Barack Obama is a demagogue and lying sack of shit.
I can't believe I'm about to defend Barack Obama, but...
His hands are kind of tied. He's not emperor, you know. Whether he thinks it is constitutional or not has very little bearing on his ability to do anything about it. He's not allowed to move them to the US, and he can't send them to other countries. So what is he supposed to do?
Re:Could have been worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
So what is he supposed to do?
Transform gitmo into something worthy of human habitation and at least stop treating those who would be released as prisoners.
It's funny how the US set up gitmo, breaking go knows how many laws, international treaties and human rights, but when it comes to dismantling the place, all of a sudden they can't because of the rules. Actually it's not funny at all.
Re: (Score:2)
It's funny how the US set up gitmo, breaking go knows how many laws, international treaties and human rights, but when it comes to dismantling the place, all of a sudden they can't because of the rules.
You understand that the same people who set up Gitmo aren't the same people trying to close it, right?
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Transform gitmo into something worthy of human habitation
I wish he would start with Detroit, Baltimore, Birmingham, etc...
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Also, give them weapons.
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As commander and chief he could order the US troops guarding the facility to withdraw, and just leave the whole mess for Cuba to clean up. (This is basically the same loophole that lets the President bomb places without a formal declaration of war).
I think I'm missing something. How is that the same loophole? Are the bombers ordered to carry a bomb over enemy territory, then ordered to stop carrying the bomb and return? Oops, gravity took over. Sorry!
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Did he even apologize for not following up on this promise ?
A politician apologize??? LOL! It's not even a sex scandal.
But in all seriousness - he made a big deal about the fact that congress tied his hands when he signed the bill. Not an apology, just a big stink. Here is the text from the press conference:
Retaliation (Score:5, Informative)
An update to the story:
Sonne has already announced plans to sue the Crown and Toronto Police [macleans.ca]
Re:Retaliation -- slim (Score:5, Informative)
Good luck to him -- even if he waits longer to get a jury trial, the judge will still set damages and cannot assess anything resembling punative damages under Canadian law. At most he will get actual, proveable damages, two years salary (should try for overtime:). And might actually get costs awarded against him if he rejects a higher "paid-into-court" settlement offer.
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If someone keeps you working for them 24/7 for two years, that should be one hell of an overtime bonus.
I figured Canadians would have inherited a British sensibility for paying people who were unfairly imprisoned without fighting it. Of course, the news stories I've read like that from England may have given me an overly sunny impression of their approach. It just always made sense to me that if the government should fuck up your life for any significant period of time, that they compensate you for
Re:Retaliation -- slim (Score:5, Informative)
I'm afraid you do have an overly sunny impression of our approach here in England.
I was a witness in court a while back. It was a simple trial related to a motoring accident, which would take only a few hours. It had been aborted on one occasion a few months after the event in question, reasonably enough IMHO because there wasn't enough time left at the end of the day to be sure of hearing the case fully in one session. It was then tried on a different day, several months later still.
The defendant was found not guilty. In their summing up, the magistrates criticised the police report that was given as evidence, and noted that evidence by one of the prosecution's own witnesses was a major factor in the not guilty decision. In short, the magistrates did not seem to have a very high opinion at all of the case that had been made by the prosecution.
As a witness, I was entitled to some basic cost-of-living expenses for my trouble, and in practice my employer had paid me my normal wage despite missing the two days of work. However, I discovered later that the defendant (who, remember, was found not guilty, and had presumably already had about a year of stress since the accident with the case hanging over them) was entitled to nothing by way of compensation for either the lost time or the reduced quality of life.
It turns out that in England, you can have your day in court -- in fact, you might not get much choice about it, and it might be more than a day -- but only at your own expense. It's no wonder that so many people pay up the fixed penalty fines for traffic offences they cannot possibly have committed, if it would cost them more than the fine to take time off and travel to a faraway court near where the alleged incident took place in order to defend themselves.
It's a shame. I think rules that mean you can lose out even if you have done nothing wrong bring the entire justice system into disrepute. It's not as obvious as a couple of recent high profile cases when someone died after the police made a mistake, but in a way this sort of widespread, low-level abuse is just as insidious, and the kind of middle ground that we're talking about in TFA is the next logical step.
Re: (Score:2)
Or as we say over here in the colonies, "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."
Re:Retaliation -- slim (Score:5, Informative)
apparently while there's no law that would force unjust imprisonment to have a compensation by default in canada, the courts can find it appropriate and do it anyways.
story at http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/04/14/17995011.html [canoe.ca] has a list of some large compensations.
Re: (Score:2)
Nice, but these are only ~0.4 M$/y which looks like 2x overtime even while sleeping, totalling 10x salary.
Canada/UK/oz/... rely _very_ heavily on the Crown (civil servants) and even company officers in general doing the "Right Thing", and being very embarrassed otherwise. Unfortunately, this has been eroded by US movies/TV.
US/state/corp officials derive their power from election, and are otherwise devoid of civic duty. So they need hard slaps from courts.
Re: (Score:3)
Good, he needs to sue them for BILLIONS and give them reason to never repeat this mistake again.
Re:Retaliation (Score:5, Interesting)
Good, he needs to sue them for BILLIONS and give them reason to never repeat this mistake again.
We need something more creative for the malfeasance of public servants because any monetary awards will just nickle-and-dime the taxpayer who won't notice it and won't have the influence to fix the problems anyway.
I propose indentured servitude. Anyone with significant involvement in pursuing this ridiculous case owes Sonne just as many hours of unpaid labor as they forced him to waste defending himself. Lets see that vindictive prosecutor made to personally mow Sonne's lawn every week for the next decade.
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Sonne doesn't have a lawn. He lost his house.
I'm thinking "organs." All the vindictive screwups responsible for this abortion of justice have to give up one transplantable organ, liquidated on the open market, and the money goes to Sonne. Or the organ, if he needs it and is biocompatible. Or just wants to display it in formaldehyde on a shelf in his apartment.
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As a taxpayer who would eventually be footing the bill, I don't see how billions would be of any help.
He is definitely deserving of compensation, of course, but what I would much rather see is that asshat Bill Blair and all the other management toadies dangling from a tree by their gonads.
How could someone with a decades long policing career NOT have known that kettling a crowd of innocent people for hours in the middle of a downpour was a bad idea?
Or stuffing a makeshift 'jail' ridiculously beyond capacity
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Set up a donations. I'm more the willing to for over money to see the Canadian gov in a whole lot of hurt.
'D20 Geek' Byron Sonne Cleared... (Score:3, Funny)
I read this as "D20 Geek" - looks like he rolled his saving throw!
>> 'G20 Geek' Byron Sonne Cleared of Explosives Charges
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Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:5, Insightful)
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He's a warning to others of what they will do to you if you leave them in power.
Fiss.
Re:Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. If the state can't prove its case, it should be forced to make the victim whole again. That, and the thugs who put him in jail on false charges should be imprisoned themselves.
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I'd give victims of justice a credit. Imprisoned for 2 years? you get 2 years of credit, to commit any crime which has the median jail time of 2 or less years. Only limitation, the victims of such automatically condoned crime must be chosen among those who are directly involved with the trial. 2 years means you can beat em up, take their car to the manufacturer and see if it withstands a crash test, hijack their dog, stuff like this.
That should make people in charge more responsible.
Of course it will never
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Re:Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:4, Insightful)
And here's the unpopular-on-Slashdot, but common-everywhere-else view: Yes, he lost all that, but he provides us all an excellent object lesson in how not to be a stupid douchebag.
When you are not a security contractor with an official relationship to the people organizing and/or securing the G-20 summit, don't fucking go on the internet talking about how you're going to 'test the security' of the G-20 summit.
If they want your help, they'll ask for it. If you offer your help, and they refuse to accept it, then by all means, write to a politician to express your views. Write to the newspapers to talk about how the security of the summit is flawed, and needs to be tested in different ways than are being planned (a legitimate *journalist* would be interested in this sort of a story - find one). Even express your views that the government is using ineffective security precautions that amount to no more than theater, and explain why online, on a blog, etc. But do not - I repeat, do not - continue making plans to "test" the security and talk about your plans to "test" the security.
If they've refused your offer of assistance to "test security," and you go ahead and publicly continue to make plans to "test security," don't be surprised when they show up, kick in your door, and fucking cart you off because you're behaving like a threat.
Re:Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:4, Insightful)
He did nothing illegal. If being a douchebag landed you in jail all the police would have to do would be stake out half the stores in the local mall and wait for a popped collar to walk by.
Re:Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't over, he will sue for wrongful prosecution. He may even win, but even if he doesn't he did what he set out to do: draw lots of attention to the shoddy, expensive, ineffectual security practices in use. Oh, and also drew attention to the government's apparent imprisonment of innocent people for political reasons. I don't know if it was worth it to him or not, but he gets a nod and a thank you from people like me for what he's accomplished just in avoiding a conviction.
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Oh, and also drew attention to the government's apparent imprisonment of innocent people for political reasons.
Then he's doing the government's work for them. They wanted to make an example of him, and by drawing attention to his case, he's helping them to succeed.
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setting aside the meat of the story for a moment..
Perhaps he left the seat up. Perhaps he failed to inform her that he was purposefully taunting the authorities. She may have had crappy or good reasons to leave him for things he did or failed to do.
Or perhaps she just got tired of him being in jail, and found it too difficult to remain 'at his side'. In which case perhaps tha
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so wouldn't he be better off without her anyway?
Have you ever lost someone that you loved? It all depends on whether he actually loved her or not. If he did love her I don't think that realization will make him feel any better about it. Her actions have made it clear that she did not love him, but that doesn't mean that he did not love her. For his sake I at least hope she was ugly.
He needs a better girlfriend (Score:2)
obviously she wanted out and probably thought he was guilty and this was a good excuse. Way to support your significant other/spouse.
Re:Doesn't matter that he won. He lost. (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't both of them leave him?
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I will beat you within an inch of your life unless you best me in a game of bloody knuckles while I'm wearing metal studded leather gloves. You cannot decline this game. You win but your hand is broken in the process of the game and you may never be able to write again. Wouldn't you call it a "hollow victory" considering that I forced you to play an unfair game without good reason and you still received possibly irreversible damages?
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No. Freedom is precious. It's never a hollow victory when you choose to defend it and win. And anyone who stands up to the state and expects to suffer no repercussions for it are delusional. Serious people who engage in civil disobediance know that they could individually be "make an example of" at any time. But if having principles means anything, it means sometimes you might have to face the consequences of upholding them.
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A Pyrrhic victory, to a battle forced upon him?
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It's not a Pyrrhic victory since he sucessfully defended the most important thing he had to lose: his freedom. This means he's free to continue his chemisty and rocketry hobbies. He's free to search and get another job, or start his own business (which I think he already had since I believed the TFA mentioned consultancy work). He's free to date women. He's free to continue to be an activist for the issues he cares about. Not only that, but if he wins his civil case against the government, he'll have certa
Bomb Ingredients? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Crown alleged he had all the necessary ingredients to build a homemade bomb
I don't know anyone that DOESN'T.
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/04/exploding-hydrogen-balloons-at-armenian-political-rally-injure-many/ [rawstory.com]
you don't need even that. electricity, water, balloons and a balloon pump. or lighter propane and balloons. with a bit of macgyver anyone is a potential terrorist.
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There was a guy around here who they tried to charge with bomb-making. As a prank he had put vinegar and baking soda in a 2-liter jug and blew it up in front of someone's house. Now, tell me again, is the original poster being hyperbolic? Or is "the crown"?
Re:Bomb Ingredients? (Score:4, Interesting)
Do you have trash bags and natural gas service at your house?
Got any ammonia and bleach (chemical warfare!)
Bug spray?
Gas can for the lawn mower?
A can of WD40 and a lighter?
Congrats! Though some of them would be fairly wimpy, all could be made into a 'bomb' sufficient to warrent arrest if you set them off in a public place.
Of more to the point, all could be deliberately misconstrued to manufacture reasonable suspicion.
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Re:Bomb Ingredients? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Crown alleged he had all the necessary ingredients to build a homemade bomb
I don't know anyone that DOESN'T.
This, a million times over; there isn't a homeowner in North America who doesn't possess materials capable of being combined for explosive effect, most of which reside under our kitchen sinks (or wherever you stash your cleaning supplies).
Claiming this as a valid rationale for prosecution is like claiming that owning bullets is intent to commit murder. It's not valid, it's just fucking stupid.
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Gun powder: check
Primers: check
steel pipe: check (makes a great breaker bar)
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I do, but given that she's only a very bright 3-year-old I'm not considering her a big risk for making a bomb anyways.
did anyone else read it as... (Score:2)
I thought the guy foiled some kind of terrorist plot by disarming a bomb
I'm glad to see the police spokeman being upfront (Score:4, Insightful)
The mere fact of innocence doesn't reduce the civic lesson value of this entire episode: You can be imprisoned for nearly a year, held almost incommunicado, and lose your most important personal relationships, simply because you're loudly opposed to the mechanisms of state security. Your "acquittal" does nothing to ameliorate that. Even if you win, you will still have lost, and nothing will change.
Well, we can hope the police spokeman was wrong about the last part.
Yet the folks that charged him won. (Score:3)
Sonne, the judge said, felt “very strongly” about his wife.
“I do not believe he would have done anything to risk injury to her or worse,” Ms. Spies said.
The couple has since split up, something Mr. Sonne noted poignantly after the verdict.
“It would be nice to walk out of the courthouse into her arms, but that’s just not going to happen.”
Consider that they've already done enough destruction to the person's family - the law enforcement have done enough to not need to go for the coup de grace and "convict" him.
Lesson pointedly taught: Don't do this, or else. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why the 11 months, that's why the easily refuted charges, the pointless lying by the security forces. They aren't punishing him as much as they are demonstrating what they can do to YOU or YOU or YOU, if you get lippy.
It's working. People are shutting up. You can't meter what ain't there, but public disagreement with the established police state is muted by these endless arrests. People don't want to go into debt for the rest of their lives, lose their jobs and their families, just to say "I disagree."
Stay tuned for Rahm Emmanuel's series of lessons in Chicago later this week. It's Tuesday, and already the security forces are running helicopters overhead. We have LDAPs! Let the schoolin' begin.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Interesting)
Worse yet. They destroyed his life as he knew it. He lost his house, job, and wife on top of 2 years of unfounded persecution. Yes, persecution.
If you read the reports of the court proceedings (https://github.com/colah/ByronTrialNotes) it is very alarming how technologically inept the authorities were in this case and how they ignored Occam's Razor to nail this guy. And these are the people that judge and impose laws on us techies. EXTREMELY worrying.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Interesting)
The legal system is a street gang. They are allowed to run rampant, and when they "accidentally" do this to an innocent person they are not liable for anything at all.
The Legal system should be required to pay for 2X the actual damages caused for every innocent person railroaded. Sat in jail for 3 years and lost your job? If you made $50K a year, you get $100K for every year you would have had that job. so call it a cool $20 million that is tax free and call it fair.
On top of this, law enforcement found to have been overzealous lose their jobs and are personally liable. Cops need to be afraid of making a mistake.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Interesting)
I sort of agree and sort of disagree.
Should the police be afraid of making mistakes? Depends on the mistake.
If they cause grievous harm to someone - yes, that they should be afraid of. Arresting someone who is innocent or is later found not guilty - no.
The prosecutors, however, should be held to a much higher standard, as they are the ones who are ultimately responsible. I.e. if they don't feel a case is strong enough, they'll have to release the suspect.
And in cases like this, where someone is found not guilty after having spent 11 months in jail, I wouldn't mind seeing the prosecutor responsible spend, say half that time behind bars for contempt of court or something. No regular income etc. (i.e. they don't get to simply sit in a cell and collect an income from the state).
Not in every single case, but if it could be codified in a reasonable way, it would certainly make railroading a lot less interesting for the prosecution. I mean - it's one thing to lose a case, but losing a case AND having to spend time in jail? Very unlikely that prosecutors will be willing to risk that simply because of political pressure.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
it would certainly make railroading a lot less interesting for the prosecution
I think you would find just the opposite. If the prosecutor faced jail time for losing a case, he or she would probably go to more extreme lengths to insure a conviction.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Interesting)
The man had his reputation and property taken from him by the state. Presumably, the prosecutor has both property and a reputation. In Babylon they solved this by summarily executing the prosecutor and conferring their lands and titles to the falsely accused. As a society, we've evolved, and I think we could make do with just transferring the property and reputation and leaving the accuser in the gutter.
Re: (Score:3)
Should the police be afraid of making mistakes?
First of all we're not just talking about the police, but the entire justice system. In cases like this the police probably just did what the prosecutors and judges told them to do.
That being said, "Should the justice system be afraid of making mistakes?" is the wrong question to ask.
"Should the justice system be less afraid of making mistakes than civilians?" is a lot easier to answer since the justice system itself is not exempt from the law.
If those responsible within the justice system make deliberate o
Re: (Score:3)
Arresting someone who is innocent or is later found not guilty - no.
The problem is that in our system simply being arrested results in a huge grind that is effectively punishment regardless of the final outcome. People spend months to years in jail. Their reputations are tarnished immediately and regardless of outcome, in a society where that reputation follows you even internationally (you can't just move to the next town over and start a new life - arrests show up on background checks). People don't own their means of production like farmers of yore did - if you lose y
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
The prosecutors weren't inept. They knew exactly what they were doing and have managed to pull it off brilliantly.
They wanted to make an example of him and scare anyone else from even thinking about talking against the government.
They didn't need to win, they just needed to drag things out and hurt the guy as much as possible. The more inept the acted the better off they could do that.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Informative)
The first thing Sonna said after how happy he is to be free, is that he's going to keep doing the same sorts of things that got him in trouble. And he's also suing the government. It doesn't sound to me like the prosecutors were particularly brilliant in their making an example of him.
Re: (Score:3)
Your logic is weak. They don't care about him or what he'll do. Look what every single article about this says: the guys life was destroyed. That was the message, "You mess with us and we'll destroy your life, enjoy picking up the pieces."
That is the message they sent to all the other people who may have considered talking out against the government. "Do so at your own peril, this is not a free society, step out of line and we'll bash your knees in."
Maybe he'll win some money or maybe he won't but the fear
Re: (Score:2)
There's just as good of a chance that people will see this and think "The government is going too far, and I need to do help fight this."
That worked out well in 1933 in Germany. The decent German folk rose up and fought down the rising oppression of the Nazi party and restored the democratic government of the Wiemar Republic.
(Yes, I just Godwinned this discussion, and by God, it's applicable and on-topic. So there.)
Some people just don't want to believe the lessons taught by history, and summarized so wel
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
And if a woman goes out at night after 9pm in a sexy outfit, not even carrying a firearm, well she is practically asking to be raped and tortured. She wouldn't be a victim. She would be doing it to herself. People can be so self-destructive. If you give a cop the finger and he beats you to death or shoots you until has Glock is out of bullets it is something you have done to yourself. The angry cop cannot be held responsible. And if you publicly criticize the government...well you know what to expect. The government cannot be held responsible for what they are forced to do to you. They would rather not ruin the life of an innocent person, but they were left with no choice. Victims have no one to blame but themselves. I think I am starting to understand now.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:4, Interesting)
No, they did not succeed according to plan. They wanted to scare him into pleading guilty and going to prison, and they failed. It's pretty clear that the prosecution never expected this case to go to trial, and once it did they had no idea what to do with it. Even though he lost two years and much of his life, the prosecution lost too. The message that people will hear from this story is not "act up and you'll get crushed by the legal system"; rather it's "what this guy did was perfectly legal and OK."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
these are the people that judge and impose laws on us techies
You are not "supposed" to be a techie; you are "supposed" to do technical work at your job, then go home, drink beer, and watch whatever propaganda is on TV. Advanced technology is "supposed" to be the secret, non-disclosable lore of corporations, not something you just play with in your home.
What, did you not get the memo?
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Funny)
it is very alarming how technologically inept the authorities were in this case and how they ignored Occam's Razor to nail this guy.
Well, duh, Occam's Razor was banned along with nail clippers and shaving cream exceeding 100 ml.
And these are the people that judge and impose laws on us techies.
Hopefully those who impose laws and those who judge are two separate branches of government, even in Canada.
Re: (Score:2)
And these are the people that judge and impose laws on us techies.
Hopefully those who impose laws and those who judge are two separate branches of government, even in Canada.
The problem is that both law enforcement and judges are (a) technically incompetent and (b) tend to side with corporate interests when it comes to technology.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
He poked the cage, repeatedly [torontolife.com], and finally got bit. Is this surprising to anyone, let alone Sonne himself? It's what he wanted all along, to prove himself right.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Insightful)
Poking the cage is not illegal. Pissing off those in power should not land you in prison for 2 years. His behavior is not smart and the outcome might be predictable, but that does not make the outcome right.
Re:How does it work in this case? (Score:5, Funny)
The court found he was not trying to bomb the government. After 11 months in jail for no reason, he certainly has the motive to do it now.
Re: (Score:3)
Probably not as much as you are implying.
Our Canadian Friends to the North are more in common with the United States Culturally then you would like to believe. And it isn't as much from the U.S. Forcing them the Canadians take pride in their differences, as do the Americans.
Both of our Justice Systems are Modeled of the English system. So it isn't to far to expect that the way we handle justice isn't that different.
Re: (Score:3)
So how much influence did the USA have in this whole farce?
I suspect not very much. He insulted the police ("Bacon on wheels", for bicycle cops), belittled their efforts in security ("security theatre"), and tweeted about how a security fence could be climbed. Apparently, he also taunted a starving unchained dog, the unfeeling bastard! I'm still trying to read about that last one.
Obviously, he's a dangerous malcontented civil libertarian who refuses to follow orders of the authorities, and he knows stuff they never will understand. I'm surprised they couldn't h
Re: (Score:2)
we need the tools developed to help dissidents in China to protect people here in the "free world."
Haven't you already used just such a tool to tell me and millions of others about your opinion on this subject?
Hint: Twitbook is evil. Do not touch. Slashdot and thousands of other blogs are good - they allow you to remain anonymous.