Online Courses and the $100 Graduate Degree 339
First time accepted submitter GCA10 writes "Forbes reports on the latest project of Google Fellow Sebastian Thrun (the proponent of self-driving cars.) He's moved on to education now, believing that conventional university teaching is way too costly, inefficient and ineffective to survive for long. So he started Udacity, which aims to deliver an online version of a master's degree for $100 per student. From the article: 'Udacity’s earliest course offerings have been free, and although Thrun eventually plans to charge something, he wants his tuition schedule to be shockingly low. Getting a master’s degree might cost just $100. After teaching his own artificial intelligence class at Stanford last year—and attracting 160,000 online signups—Thrun believes online formats can be far more effective than traditional classroom lectures. “So many people can be helped right now,” Thrun declares. “I see this as a mission.”'"
I took his AI class (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I took his AI class (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I took his AI class (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think the issue is whether people can be taught for low amounts money. Clearly they can. Just have a HUGE number listening online, and you can make a living easilly by spreading the cost among them. Per student, it will be very low.
The real problem is the cost of evaluating what students know. You can't give someone a master's degree unless you can evaluate that they know their stuff, or else the degree becomes worthless. And evaluations require tests. True, you *could* make all the tests multiple choice, but what about times when a hands on test in a lab environment is needed? What about times when creativity is required in the answer, or designs have to be drawn, etc, and it can't be fit into a multiple choice test? A computer can't grade that. Humans have to. Hiring TAs for 160,000 people is going to raise the cost far above $100. Unless he plans to just do multiple choice, in which case, his students will likely be good at memorization and not hands on application. And cheating may also be easier with 160,000 people taking anonymous multiple choice tests.
And I would also argue a lot of good educations require hands on lab training too, which is something else that becomes costly when you think of test lab infrastructures for so many people.
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and why should I have to pay $$$ for humanities cl (Score:3)
and why should I have to pay $$$ for humanities classes for a IT or engineering job?? at least some of that stuff can be offered at a much lower cost.
It's all the filler (that are some schools you don't have that much choice over) at some schools a over load of GEN edu classes (does a IT / desktop job really need tig and other higher Math classes?) some required classes are just there to fill up classes and to make people pay more (some schools still have the swim test)
Why do have pay fees at the college pr
Re:and why should I have to pay $$$ for humanities (Score:5, Insightful)
As a scientific programmer, I find it amazing that any significant portion of people in serious IT place no value on math higher than and including trigonometry. Is this actually the case?
And as a citizen in a democracy, I find it amazing and frightening that a significant portion of people who actually vote see no value in general education courses. When I was a kid in the 90's, we used to call someone a "tool" as an insult.
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It seems that the only value of general education courses is in making you fit in with other people who think the same. I'm yet to find anything to show otherwise. I'm serious. I'm not saying that nothing else but science should be of any interest. Quite to the contrary, I find it pleasurable to explore areas of theatre and literature that interest me. I'm not going to pretend it's of any use other than giving me the pleasure of learning it. It may perhaps improve my writing a bit, but that's not very impor
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I don't think that a common cultural background is needed to live well together. I find it way more interesting to live with people who share little cultural background. Perhaps it's just me.
Re:and why should I have to pay $$$ for humanities (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Perhaps you missed the point. (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem I find with this crazy old fashion idea is that there's no way tell if it actually amounts to much, if anything. All I always hear is from people who believe in the idea pronouncing that the world will end because people are not up to snuff on their [insert subject name here]. All I can see in real life is people who get suckered because they fail at fairly basic applied natural sciences, math, psychology, sociology, finance, etc. None of the arts and other humanities seem to matter at all. Even history is exaggerated, because on its own it's just a big body of experimental results, so to speak, with no theories as to how one would apply them to anything. Similar to a lot of psychology and sociology, of course. People point to stuff happening in the past and say: see, had people known this, they'd have averted problem X. And it keeps getting repeated and taken in on faith, with not a single decent study to show that it's actually so. Sad.
Split the teaching from the testing. (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now we have testing centers for vendor-specific certifications.
Run the classes on-line for whatever price.
Those who just want to learn can stop there.
Those who want a degree can pay to take the tests at the testing centers.
For more complex tests either offer them in central locations or have traveling test sites. These would be more expensive than the other tests, but probably a LOT cheaper than the current model.
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Great idea. Wish I had mod points for you.
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Too Late! (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't give someone a master's degree unless you can evaluate that they know their stuff, or else the degree becomes worthless.
Between grade inflation and cheating it seems like that is awfully close to true for the vast majority of degrees today.
Re:I took his AI class (Score:4, Interesting)
160,000 students @ $100 each is $16M.
$16M at $32k buys 500 TAs / year.
160K students / 500 TAs is 320 students / TA.
One TA could give each student one dedicated hour every other month and maintain a regular 40 hr per week year round schedule.
That's not that far off from being reasonable.
If you pay the TAs only $15K-20K you would have budget for overhead and profit, or more TAs for more FTF time.
Re:I took his AI class (Score:4, Informative)
160,000 students @ $100 each is $16M.
$16M at $32k buys 500 TAs / year.
160K students / 500 TAs is 320 students / TA.
One TA could give each student one dedicated hour every other month and maintain a regular 40 hr per week year round schedule.
That's not that far off from being reasonable.
If you pay the TAs only $15K-20K you would have budget for overhead and profit, or more TAs for more FTF time.
A full-load TA generally can work only 20 hours/week at the job, so the numbers are off by a factor of two. One hour per month is a little low to begin with, and 30 minutes per month is not workable unless the assignments are trivial to grade. 30 min/month is something like 7.5 minutes per week.
There are some efficiencies to be had by moving elements of education online. For example, discussion boards are a great way to answer a question once for the entire class to see. Sometimes students will even answer questions other students have posted. But there is no economy of scale on grading and providing useful feedback. Some things are inherently labor intensive.
Evaluation through internships. (Score:2)
The real problem is the cost of evaluating what students know.
That's what internships are for.
That may be the future: DIY college education plus unpaid competitive internships.
Robotic Car and AI Class tests are NOT multiple ch (Score:2)
Robotic Car and AI Class tests are NOT multiple choice. You actually write code, or compute answers by hand. And that code gets evaluated by how far it diverges from the ideal.
whimsical attitude? (Score:2)
You mean the zero effort and no preparation? It was total embarrassment.
Hope he'll put more effort into his new venture.
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Hopefully this succeeds (Score:3, Insightful)
I want to see free education thru the PhD level as some countries offer. There is no reason it should cost a fortune to become educated. It's a legal racket, much like for-profit healthcare and pharmaceuticals.
What stops me from going back to college now in my mid-forties is ROI. I cannot afford to be in massive debt what with a wife and kid. My wife has massive school debt from her degree and it would be grossly unfair to add to that already burdensome bill.
Great idea... praying it succeeds.
Re:Hopefully this succeeds (Score:4, Informative)
I want to see free education thru the PhD level as some countries offer.
A PhD is free in the United States. I just completed my Doctorate and I was paid $20,000 per year to do it. In the sciences and engineering fields, at a research university, you're paid off of grant money. Tuition usually either waved or paid for you off the grant.
Now if you go into a non reacher field like the humanities or the pure mathematics, you will have to pay your own way.
That's UnAmerican! (Score:4, Funny)
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I wish Sebastian Thrun all the best.
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While the end result of your complaint is true, the reason it is true is not likely the one you put forward (private education). With the exception of a fairly new breed of commercial diploma mills (which target those who make poor economic decisions, much like any other predatory industry), private universities in the USA are responding to the same pressure sources public universities are. Public universities have had funding cut, while private universities lost major chunks of their endowments to the late
Re:That's UnAmerican! (Score:5, Insightful)
A) College is about knowledge. This used to be the case when a good chunk of information could only be found in academic libraries, but today a simple Google search can find you the information for all but the most specialized of areas.
B) College is about qualifications. This is the main viewpoint today since we've dumbed high school down to the point where everyone can pass, people need another qualification for most professions that qualification is college.
C) College is about the experience. This is true and the viewpoint I tend to take, but at the same time, there are a lot of cheaper ways to get even better experiences than college, especially if you know what you want to do.
the old idea of a degree is a poor fit for today (Score:3)
"The idea of a degree is that you spend a fixed time right after high school to educate yourself"
Some stuff seems to be padded out to fit a 2 or 4 year plan when offering it NON degree / as badges system is better.
http://chronicle.com/article/Badges-Earned-Online-Pose/130241/ [chronicle.com]
We need more Tech schools / apprenticeships (Score:4, Interesting)
We need more Tech schools / apprenticeships as yes you do need some training but CS is not IT and 2-4 years is a long time to sit in class room with at times learning very few skills needed to do the job.
well rounded person is part but CS is not IT (Score:2)
well rounded person is part but CS is not IT. Now communication or writing skills with a shaky knowledge of culture and history managing can be done at a community college and have the jobs skills be in there own schools.
CS is more a high level thing
Do you want a some with a Engineering BA working on your car or some who learned on there own / apprenticeships / tech school?
Other trades have apprenticeships and you learn REAL skills doing them. But It's been said that people with CS do not have needed skills
...however, (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, there are many important things that simply can't be taught via computer. I am an evolutionary biologist (specifically human evolution), so that is what I know: you can't learn anatomy at the graduate level without cadavers, period. You can't learn biological variation without dissecting and studying many cadavers. You can't learn comparative anatomy without dissecting animals. You can't learn the fossil record without handling the fossils (or high quality casts). You can't learn population genetics without spending time in a sequencing lab. You can't learn field biology without going to the field. You can't learn paleontology without going to the field. There are many things that I learned in my graduate training that simply can't be taught on a computer.
Personal tutelage by a master is similarly an irreplaceable experience. I've learned an enormous amount of information from watching online lectures and taking online courses in subjects outside of my specialties - but I would absolutely not consider myself on par with people who have traditional graduate training in these fields. I loved the AI class - but Professor Thrun never discussed my ideas with me, criticized my writings on the topic, and certainly never helped me design a project and then execute it. I can't call, Skype, or email authorities in AI to chat about the newest papers in the field - because I simply never met them through the online course.
As enthusiastic as I am about the exciting possibilities of newfangled gadgetry, computers and the internet are still tools with limitations. Powerful tools, but not totipotent tools. Sometimes newer isn't better. Sometimes newer is worse.
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when higher edu wants Physical Education (Score:2, Insightful)
when higher edu wants Physical Education as a required class it shows that it is a cash grab and some ways a rip off.
Re:when higher edu wants Physical Education (Score:5, Insightful)
and if we don't change the system master / MBA (Score:3)
and if we don't change the system master / MBA will take over Bachelor's. So then you will have people loaded with loans. Be in school for 6+ years post HS with few real job skills to show for it.
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Because why would an employer want employees that are more likely to keep fit and keep their health insurance costs down?
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Basically the school doesn't want all their grads to be fat fucks or scrawny nerds with no physical health.
Likely won't help unless they want to change themselves.
Can you really consider yourself educated if you have no idea about healthy exercise habits?
That's not something you need to take a class for. All that information is easily available.
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Some classes are enhanced by interaction with the professor, other students, and invaluable hands-on lab time. Other classes can be completed online without losing any of the value. Take for example the common core classes of mathematics, liberal arts, history, etc. Does the student gain anything by physically sitting in a classroom? If these classes can be taken care of online for little cost then the student's scarce time and treasure can be leveraged to attend only the courses which benefit from inte
Labs are not tied to a university... (Score:2)
There is no reason labs have to be done in university settings.
You could have totally independent, for profit companies running labs for every kind of science that people could take part in. I can also see universities opening up labs only to outside students for a reasonable fee.
As you say, so much learning can be done online... in the end all that will be left for universities is truly the world of higher education, not of freshman level stuff.
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I imagine core courses split between lecture and problem sessions will have the lecture portion replaced by digital distribution in the next 20 years or so. The benefits of physically attending a huge lecture are too low for cost-conscious schools to stomach indefinitely, especially if really high-quality lectures by gifted educators can be used.
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If the current trend of stupidity continues in America, you won't have to worry about whether or not online education is not as good as hands on. You'll have long given up teaching from frustration when a law passes stating you must give equal time to creationist theories.
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In the same way and for the same reasons that McDonald's has replaced a home cooked meal, it's cheap, easy, and convenient.
not college material is on both sides as well (Score:3)
there are people going to college who are not cut out off it and there are lot's of classes that should be in college any ways.
MOD PARENT UP AS... (Score:4, Funny)
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It isn't about the knowledge. Let's face it, on-the-job training tells you 99% of what you n
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Despite the fact that it has become a de-facto job credential. . .
Of course it is possible... (Score:5, Insightful)
A) Get a worthless piece of paper to distinguish yourself. Sure, it isn't good, it isn't a positive trend, but in many fields unless you have a bachelor's or master's degree your application won't even be looked at.
B) Provides opportunities for networking with like minded students and employers. In high school most people couldn't meet with very many like minded students, especially if they were into computer science. There is a reason many start-ups happen in college, you can get all the "right" type of people, you get the people with vision, you get the code monkeys skilled with every programming language under the sun, you get the hardware people and you have thousands of potential customers right at your university.
C) It provides a chance to go out and see the world. Being a student you usually don't have much of anything tying you down to a single country. I mean, sure, you've got family, but spending a year in France, six months in Singapore, a few weeks in Andorra isn't anything major.
D) It provides a lot of "hobby time" to work on pet projects and research, especially at graduate level. When you are employed for a company, everything needs to be justified in terms of profit. In college you can just do things for the heck of it.
Every "book knowledge" thing you can learn in college can be learned for free online. In the rare case it can't be found online, it can be found in the textbook which you can buy without registering for the class. Yes, you do have a handful of really good professors, but the best thing they provide isn't book knowledge, it is guidance.
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Of course it is possible to get a world class education for $100 or less, but education isn't why people go to college.
Not anymore, though that used to be the primary purpose of higher education. Back when it only cost $150/year ($3,000 in today's currency) to go to one of the top private universities in the US, that's what college was for. Of course, there was always a networking component, but that's actually also been true of just about every practical post-secondary endeavor in existence. I'm not sure w
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Certain things may change over time. We may not all go to work and physically collaborate. We may no longer need to pay huge amounts for journals, or need to pay huge amount t
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Only if you get tenure.
should we move most gen edu to community colleges? (Score:2)
should we move most gen edu to community colleges? With that ending up being a new base level Degree. And from there on the idea of Degrees is rework to them being more about what you are learning and are filled to the skills and not the fixed time tables of the old degree system.
Then after that you can stay at the community college and take vol classes, go to a tech school, take a apprenticeship, go on to a pre med school (reworked with any need higher level gen edu)
College movies of the future (Score:4, Funny)
This more look like the description of a future.. (Score:2)
LAN party.
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No serorities, frat parties, or jocks. Just a guy sitting in front of his computer in his underwear filling out quizzes. The plot will center around the reliability of his Internet connection and the pesky neighbours who keep knocking at his door.
Dude, you have totally got to log onto our frat's site and get pledged. You want to be a bro at I Tappa Key, man!
Please make free online (Score:4, Insightful)
text books. Html 5 interactive text books. Start with K-5, then move on up.
Please.
Long way to go (Score:2)
It will be DOA (Score:3)
US vs Europe (Score:5, Insightful)
I paid a total of 10000$ to get a BSc, an MSc and a PhD in Computer Science in Italy. I now work happily as a researcher in the Netherlands.
Higher education should not be treated as an enterprise. Higher knowledge is a very scarce commodity (an online recording system/whatever is not the same thing, otherwise the easily available books would be more than sufficient to get any degree); this means that schools are effectively a monopoly without much competition.
Who can solve this? The state. Look all over Europe for the simple solution: higher education benefits everyone and is paid (because paid it must be) by the state mostly and the end user a little bit. The little bit in some cases is increased if the student is not passing enough exams. There are also *lots* of scholarships that both look at ability and low income, and these often end up supporting poorer students who do not necessarily have excellent results but just ok results.
Why does the state need to step in? Because Communism is great and Mother Russia is close-by? No: the state needs to step in because the gain with more educated citizens is of the collective, not just the subject of the education.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
You get what you pay for
And yet some of the best things in life are free. It would be nice to add a world class education to that list.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Informative)
Look at it this way ... (Score:4)
Speak with experience here.
I do employ people, and I've been doing so for the past 2 decades.
I find that the quality of newer crops of university graduates are much lower than their counterparts that I had hired 10 or 20 years ago.
With the panflation syndrome ( http://www.economist.com/node/21552214 [economist.com] ) already permeated many of the traditional brick and mortar universities, it wouldn't do me too much harm for me to try hiring some who graduated from the $100-per-degree online universities
Re:Look at it this way ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Panflation is an interesting theory - one that there is more truth to than I would like to think about. I also employ people, or rather used to, before I got my soul back.
What I find most interesting about panflation, though, is that it is directly related to the baby-boomer lesson of 'you're special, there's never been anyone like you' that we've been force fed for the last 50 years or so. It starts with participation trophies in youth sports. It is highlighted by inflated grades, and the relative inability to hold a student back in today's educational system. I say relative inability, because this is how it goes: The school says, 'this child isn't learning anything - s/he needs to be held back,' which causes the parents to squawk 'NOPE,' while flailing their arms. Why? Because all of the research states that holding students back isn't effective (in minority and students in poverty), is over applied (in minority and students in poverty), and has alternatives that are as simple as increased parent participation (for minority and students in poverty) and even as simple as better classroom management practices! You hear that? It's not your fault!!! It never was!!! What's the issue here? -----The people who are reading this research are generally White, Suburban, Middle- to Upper-Middle Class folks. NOT the folks living in poverty, or minority groups that it is intended for.
What we are seeing with grade inflation at brick and mortar universities is the end result of two facts: (a) no one wants to be the bad guy anymore, so no one fails, and (b) we have been fed, for 50 years or so, that if we don't agree with a decision, we can FIGHT THE POWER, and DESERVE to get our way; and if we can't get our way, just call Mommy and Daddy, so they can threaten the school with lawsuits or some other bullshit.
I'm not sure where that came from, but there it is. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm just saying that when articles point out whole-life inflation, but refuse to call attention to the underlying problem, I get a bit steamed.
I wish there was an online option for when I went through graduate school. At least then I wouldn't have needed to play monkey-boy for a Faculty Member to pay for it (yes, those words are capitalized; he made that abundantly clear to me).
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$100 is probably not enough to pay the people who will mark the exams. Most universities allow external students: those who are not taught by the university but simply show up and take the exams, and you'd be hard pressed to find any that do so for $100. A masters course typically involves a dissertation that is at least 100 pages. Just reading it is going to take several hours. If you can do it in five hours (which is pretty good going for a thorough read of a masters dissertation) then you're talking
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The bigger issue is the honor code. But Udacity just entered into an agreement [blogspot.com] with Pearson testing centers to allow students to test in a recognized environment.
I admit, I'm a bit biased after taking the Robotic Car class, but I think it's time for a change in our educational st
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Interesting)
But many other costs of education, grading, feedback, etc., are proportional to the number of students. The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
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But many other costs of education, grading, feedback, etc., are proportional to the number of students. The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
With checks and balances, marking the lower level students could be an assignment for the higher grade ones. Some exercises can be computer marked. Of course there are still going to have to be some professional markers, and providing exam conditions isn't free (for most certification exams its about £50 or $75 to the centre).
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Interesting)
The amount of personal time you get from instructors for $100 is at most a few hours. For some students, that's enough. For most, it isn't.
I'd strongly disagree with "most". 200 students and one hour of office hours and the guy doesn't speak english anyway is not an unusual situation.
There is nothing wrong with people who have learning problems going to special schools that cost $50K/yr and everyone else goes to the $50/yr school.
The purpose of higher ed is not to hold your hand like a kindergartner anyway, its to teach you how to teach yourself. Look at the environment you'll be in when you graduate.
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The purpose of higher ed is not to hold your hand like a kindergartner anyway, its to teach you how to teach yourself. Look at the environment you'll be in when you graduate.
And yet, in my brick and mortar school, when we encourage individual learning, peer mentoring and peer leadership, we are accused by students/parents of not doing our jobs. People want to be handheld today. They've been taught that someone will be there to help them, and they've been taught it for the last 50 years. Oh, and in today's society, when you don't get your way, do you know what the first course of action is? Threaten a lawsuit - granted, I only have my own experience and it is anecdotal evidence
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The issue isn't necessarily developing content. The issue is creating a degree out of it. Anyone can sit down and pound out some content.
How do you turn that into a degree? Well in order for it to be accredited I believe you'd have to create some standards. Tests, assessments, things like that.
Someone is going to have to manage those, mark them, etc.
No on is really going to respect a multiple choice masters degree, and no one is going to mark papers for a penny each. There are also issues in dealing with th
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at it this way; in the future an employer needs to select a new hire. 2 people apply, both with master's degress. One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
Indeed, you get what you paid for, not.
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Out of curiosity (Score:2)
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I'm in america too. civil engineering master's degree at one of the UCs. a research stipend covered tuition and raman money. I'm lucky - the program had enough grants that all 20 masters students had funding.
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Look at it this way; in the future an employer needs to select a new hire. 2 people apply, both with master's degress. One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
So one went to Harvard and the other watched some Youtube videos and maybe emailed in a couple of tests and a thesis of some sort to an advisor of such demand that they charged nothing for their services.
In the grand scheme of things, yeah, the second one might be "smarter", but as a real employer I will have to go with the first person.
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I suppose that's true, until people who have completed the less expensive one prove more capable and useful, in significant numbers, over time.
Then you take the better one. Who actually cares what you paid for your degree? The point of having one (nowadays) is to determine how useful you'll be before you have a real work history.
Employers can spot a diploma mill a mile away... (Score:2)
If you're a native in your country and not being hired with the understanding that you're going to be abused, a $100 Master's degree is literally worse than worthless. The folks with dime store diploma's that applied at my old place were specifical
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If you're a native in your country and not being hired with the understanding that you're going to be abused, a $100 Master's degree is literally worse than worthless. The folks with dime store diploma's that applied at my old place were specifically weeded out because the assumption was if you're dumb enough to pay for one of those you're not worth hiring.
If you're dumb enough to equate a qualification from people such as Thrun and Peter frigging Norvig with the degree mills, you're the one who's not worth hiring.
Although having said that, they seem to be having a hard time attracting any other real academics and instead fall back on a mix of .com types, and in the long term, reputation's going to be the make-or-break for Udacity....
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
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As part of that $40k you're also getting contacts and connections.
You hit upon the true value of college, the social network. College offers everyone an opportunity to leave their socioeconomic environment behind and move into a new and, hopefully, better one. That is one reason fraternities and sororities continue to thrive as they process these people into their alumni systems. The college social system is far from perfect, but it is probably more efficient than its education system. Ask Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerberg, three famous dropouts.
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Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Informative)
The opposite of "a social network makes finding a job easier" is not "no social network makes finding a job impossible".
Besides, immigrants tend to have very good social networks, composed of other immigrants from the same country of origin.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you say, it's a meritocracy where ass licking skills are what matters instead of academics. Yeah, I've been to a U.S. school too, and while the quality of education was way better than what I had in Europe, the social side of it was a disaster. I tried to stay on campus only for the classes and library time.
He alluded to this being their business model, act (Score:2)
He alluded to this being their business model, actually, in an interview a while ago. Prospective employers would definitely not mind paying for detailed score statistics and access to the top few hundred students in the class.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Interesting)
Which one is going to stick to the job because he sold his first born child to cover the debts?
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Insightful)
One paid $40,000 a year for it, one paid $100 a year. Which is the smarter one?
That's a good question.
One hundred dollars buys two or three hours of time from a professional tutor or teaching assistant.
Assuming no laboratory or administrative costs, how valuable is an education that you got for the cost of two or three hours of one-on-one attention (including teaching and evaulation) per year?
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Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
It's very sad that those connections matter. School should be about what you know and what you can do, not about your ass licking skills :(
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:4, Insightful)
It usually is, unfortunately -- in the U.S., that is. It's a big social club, like a mutual adoration society, closed to outsiders. That's not very healthy for the long term progress, you know.
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Welcome to Feudalism 2.0, Millenium Edition.
Re:You get what you pay for (Score:5, Insightful)
An awful lot of Americans are paying a lot and getting very little out of college right now... especially at for-profit universities [salon.com]. Every taxpayer has an interest in this subject because of federal student loans.
Major reform is going to be necessary because the college debt bubble is going to pop sooner rather than later. I applaud this man's effort to bring some fiscal sanity to the world of higher education.
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The reason Americans get less out of university and get into greater debt isn't a problem with universities. Americans complete university at twice the rate (30%) of Germany or France (15%). You can't expect 30% of your population to go to college and do as well as when only the top 15% of your students go to college. The high demand for college education has caused prices to skyrocket, fueled by the fact that due to cheap student loans, students can actually pay. And a huge number of those degrees are
Time is money (Score:2, Insightful)
You get what you pay for
Time is money.
The time you put into your studies is also a payment. Its merely a payment that does not go into the school's bank account.
Some rare individuals are perfectly capable of a university level education through their own independent studies. That said, most people who believe they are capable of doing so are incorrect. One of many reasons is that they will cherry pick topics to study and pass on some topic that they have no interest in, this is often a mistake. Most people need the structure
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Why pay?
Thunderwood is FREE: http://thunderwoodcollege.com/ [thunderwoodcollege.com]
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