Man Finds Roman Gold Coin Hoard Worth £100,000 With Metal Detector 249
An anonymous reader writes "A novice metal detector has found one of the largest roman gold coin hoards ever unearthed in the UK. From the article: 'National newspapers reported on Wednesday that the man, from Berkhamsted, had been sold a beginner’s metal detector from the town’s High Street-based Hidden History for £135. He is reported to have gone back with 40 of the “solidi” coins, dating to the last days of Roman rule in Britain, and asked: “What do I do with this?”'"
Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Funny)
What else are you supposed to do with money? Of course, they may not be selling spears, shields and trebuches any longer.....
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The second part may be a little tricky but look for a strangely dressed eccentric and you might have some joy.
Re:Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Learn Latin and Anglo Saxon. Find a time machine. Become extremely wealthy.
Don't forget to burry your treasures when you die in the past in order to close the loop.
Re:Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Shouldn't this be modded informative or insightful?
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Learn Latin and Anglo Saxon. Find a time machine. Become extremely wealthy. The second part may be a little tricky but look for a strangely dressed eccentric and you might have some joy.
Filthy rich or rather filthy and rich in that order...
Do anyone think it's worth it?
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Re:Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
The Anglo-Saxon language was a dialect of West Germanic that developed in southern Denmark and northeastern Germany (the Angle) in the first centuries AD and was already spoken by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes when they invaded Britain, and in fact those early dialects the three groups brought over were the source of several English dialects found in England and southern Scotland even 1,500 years later.
Just to be totally pedantic :)
Re:Spend 'Em!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Money not going as far as it did? Pay not stretching to the end of the month? Well why not send your Roman treasure to http://www.cashforyourgold.co.uk/ [cashforyourgold.co.uk] for a free valuation! Just pop all your treasure in the freepost envelope with our address written plainly on the outside so any light-fingered postman can pinch it and drop it in the bin*ahem*post box! It couldn't be simpler! Even if*ahem*when your gold arrives at our foundry, we'll only quote you 10% of it's scrap value, so don't forget to argue on the phone and we'll double it instantly! We'll still bel ripping you off, but hey, we've got a great advert with lots of exclamation marks in it!!!
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They are antiquities, so he will have to give them up.
He will get a percentage of their value, not close to the real value.
Confiscate them! (Score:3, Interesting)
I seem to recall, from reading about other similar situations, that the British government considers all finds of this nature to be the property of the government. Kind of like how in the U.S. the Feds now consider anything that falls from the sky and lands on Federal land to be federal property.
For some reason the Feds were pissed meteorite collectors were making money off of rocks from the sky and they weren't.
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I seem to recall, from reading about other similar situations, that the British government considers all finds of this nature to be the property of the government. Kind of like how in the U.S. the Feds now consider anything that falls from the sky and lands on Federal land to be federal property.
The difference is that Federal property is public property -- the government owns that property, so of course if something falls there, they own it. But if that meteorite falls in your back yard, YOU own it. If it f
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Actually.
http://www.swordsdirect.com/ [swordsdirect.com]
http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/siege_engines_main.html [redstoneprojects.com]
Illegal in Ireland (Score:5, Informative)
Using metal detectors without prior permission and a degree in archaeology is illegal here in Ireland, punishable by stiff fines and prison, as is wandering around the countryside with archaeological tools. Well technically the latter isn't illegal as such, but you'd better have a good reason for carrying them. Its understandable really given the quality and rarity of some of the treasures that have already been turned up I suppose, the government doesn't want looters making off with priceless artifacts to adorn their mantelpiece.
Re:Illegal in Ireland (Score:5, Insightful)
So basically, not finding items of historical value is better than finding them and destroying a bit of historically valuable surroundings?
Isn't the worth of historically relevant findings in the knowledge they provide rather than their existence? If that was the case, any dude coming up with this without totally destroying everything around the coins provides a net gain to our understanding of history. I can't help but think that would be better than never finding anything at all (which is very probable).
Also, NOW they know where to go look for another archaeological site, right?
Re:Illegal in Ireland (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. They will still be there for a proper archaeologist to discover at some future time. Given how many artifacts were damaged or ruined by bungling explorers in the 1800's and early 1900's, I'd say it is prudent to leave the task to experts.
Re:Illegal in Ireland (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. They will still be there for a proper archaeologist to discover at some future time. Given how many artifacts were damaged or ruined by bungling explorers in the 1800's and early 1900's, I'd say it is prudent to leave the task to experts.
Amusingly many of those bungling explorers were the "experts" of the time. Also in order for archeologists to know there's anything worth digging up, someone has to make a chance discovery. Proper archeology takes a lot of time and resources, and thus sites are only excavated if there's reason to suspect there's something to look for in the first place.
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Screw that. This 'it's history so you loose everything becasue of it' attitude is bullshit.
I'll let you in on a secret: Nothing we learn about the Romans will change a damn thing today. It's not really that important. We won't discover a new power source, we won't discover anything that changes out course in history, and we won't even learn everything new about the Romans beyond a piece of trivia.
Re:Illegal in Ireland (Score:5, Insightful)
So basically, not finding items of historical value is better than finding them and destroying a bit of historically valuable surroundings?
Yes, in most cases.
Isn't the worth of historically relevant findings in the knowledge they provide rather than their existence?
No, because in archaeology, the context of a find is everything. Of course, valuable and beautiful objects make for
great exhibitions, but context is really the main part of what is interesting. You'll see an archaologist become much
more excited over an unusual and unexpected piece of wood than over "another roman gold coin. meh."
We have tens of thousands of roman gold coins already, and I doubt any of the coins this guy found are of
an unkown kind.
However, an amateur will not know to care for some fibres around the gold coins that may have been a
uniquely crafted bag, thereby proving trade contacts with $faraway_place. Of will discard a couple of shovels
full of dirt with bone fragments or plant seeds in them which would make this a unique and invaluable find.
If you find something, don't touch it and report it, but don't dig around yourself - you'll do way more
harm than good, and may even commit a crime.
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Where it's clearly accidental I don't think there have ever been any prosecutions, turf cutters occasionally haul up bog mummies (although I'd say they've probably dismembered many more unknowingly). There was a story in the news a while back about a woman who pulled a bronze age brooch out of her fireplace after burning through a turf fire. http://celticmythpodshow.com/blog/turf-fire-reveals-celtic-treasure/ [celticmythpodshow.com]
What many people don't get about Ireland is its pretty much wall to wall historical sites, layered o
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" I ought to come over there and dig the fuck out of your little island."
The Brits beat you to that.
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Here in China they know where the Tomb of Qin Shi Huang is located, but they won't be actually excavating the site until such a time as they can figure out how to do so without destroying everything in there. Assuming that it's properly preserved.
It's the responsible thing to do. Once something is damaged or destroyed, that's it. You can sometimes repair it, but it's never the same as if it weren't damaged or destroyed in the first place.
As much as I'd love to see the tomb opened, it's more important that i
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Using metal detectors without ... a degree in archaeology is illegal here in Ireland
Seriously? I can sort of understand the rest of it, but there are other uses for metal detectors besides digging up treasure. Or did you just mean to imply "Using metal detectors to find loot"?
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I think you can go beachcombing on some beaches, but there's an exclusion zone around areas of interest, which in Ireland where you trip over someone's cairn every half mile basically means the whole island.
As I understand it you require an individual Detection Device License to be issued for each and every time you plan to go metal detecting with the intention of finding any kind of historical object - and the law assumes that that is what you are doing whenever you are using a metal detector. Archaeologis
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He wasn't quite accurate.
It is illegal to dig for archeological objects and to use metal detectors for such a purpose without a special licence.
You can use a metal detector to find bottle caps in your lawn or to locate pipes.
but too many amature treasure hunters have fucked up sites.
I'm glad I'm in America! (Score:2, Funny)
We don't have such silly laws! So, it will be a big help when I'm using a metal detector to find those ancient Roman and Gaylick treasures - especially in the South East US! And I'll have the means too. See, I took ALL engineering and math classes in college - none of that nonsense liberal arts stuff like history and art! Nope!
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the government doesn't want looters making off with priceless artifacts.
And that's the REAL reason Guinness was invented; to prevent unauthorized archaeological activity.Otherwise, the Irish would have categorized the the entire subterranean contents of the Emerald Isle by now...
Re:Illegal in Ireland (Score:5, Informative)
PDF warning:
http://www.archaeology.ie/media/archeologyie/PDFS/Irish%20Field%20Monuments.pdf [archaeology.ie]
Page 23 there, "The National Monuments Acts, makes it
unlawful to excavate for archaeological
purposes without a licence from the
Department of the Environment, Heritage &
Local Government. Their consent is also
required to use a metal detector for the
purpose of searching for archaeological
objects. Such consents are normally issued
to qualified and experience archaeologists"
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" Their consent is also
required to use a metal detector for the
purpose of searching for archaeological
objects."
That's why people never 'search' for archaeological objects, they just 'find' them while searching for rare bottlecaps.
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That's why the police and judiciary tend to just arrest and prosecute people wandering around with a metal detector and a shovel. Its a bit like having a boxcutter in your pocket in a nightclub, you may think you can come up with a good excuse for it but you can't where it matters. You can jig around with not carrying a shovel or having a photo of a missing watch or something, but its not fooling anyone, least of all a judge.
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You mean a government that actively protects the national heritage, associated treasures and history from nimrods foreign and domestic? Thats one use I'm quite happy to see my taxes being put towards.
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" for archaeological purposes"
No sir, I planned to destroy it using a bulldozer, clearly not an archaeological purposes
British local press at their best (not) (Score:2, Interesting)
"Are you the man who found the coins? Do you know who he is? Contact reporter David O’Neill on 01442 898451."
Duh! - one might have expected the journo to get the name, or even an interview!
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His job. It's a reporter's job to find out stuff. Some of them are better at their job than others.
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Because you know he didn't have any higher priorities than a stupid feel good "oh look I dug up some treasure!" story?
not the largest find (Score:5, Interesting)
TFA is way out. The was a more valuable Roman find of Roman Torcs [wikipedia.org] 3 miles to the west of Stirling in Scotland which netted around £4m which he had a share of £500k [thesun.co.uk]
What's interesting is that the Romans didn't last long in Scotland but there are still visible signs of our italian pals from 2000 years ago, such as the Fendoch fort in the Sma Glen [scran.ac.uk] north of Crieff and the fort at Braco some 5 miles south of Crieff.
We found some tunic broaches with a metal detector in my parents field a few miles away. Still looking for the pot of Roman gold. There are legends that Fendoch had a large stash of gold but there just legends and no one has ever found them plus metal detecting is illegal on recognised Roman forts which is a bit of a set back!
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"One of the" != "the".
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Since when where Torc's coins?
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Maybe learn English? Pay particular attention to the meanings of "one of" and "coin".
In the year 4012... (Score:5, Funny)
An anonymous reader writes
"A novice metal detector has found one of the largest bit coin servers ever unearthed in the UK. From the article: 'National newspapers reported on Wednesday that the man, from Berkhamsted, had been sold a beginner’s metal detector from the town’s High Street-based Hidden History for £135. He is reported to have gone back with 40 of the bit coins, dating to the last days of 'Cameron' rule in Britain, and asked: “What do I do with this?”'"
Read all comments.
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Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Expedted title (Score:3, Funny)
Sure he "found" them (Score:2, Interesting)
It sounds like he came across a fortune through illegal means, bought a beginner metal detector someplace (really who spends 135 quid on a beginner item, he must have been certain he would find something worth at least that value) and then played dumb when he says that he "found" it.
He reports it in, nobody will claim, and he will get to keep it legally. Easy way to "legalise" something you shouldn't have. Works for bags of money some people "dig up" in their backyard too (which is really their drug money t
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"He reports it in, nobody will claim, and he will get to keep it legally."
AFAIK that's not how it works in the UK, I believe it defaults to museum or council ownership or something unless they explicitly state they don't want it.
I smell a rat (Score:3, Interesting)
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Mostly because roman gold coins were almost as thin as paper. There is no real weight in Gold in a Roman coin.
Re:I smell a rat (Score:5, Informative)
Mostly because roman gold coins were almost as thin as paper. There is no real weight in Gold in a Roman coin.
Yes, only 4.5 grams in a solidus, or only about £150 worth of gold in each... paper thin, indeed. For some value of paper thin.
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Yeah these ones would only be worth $40,000. Worthless I say!
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If he was a fool and melted them all down? yes. but the point was they are worth more as roman coins than as gold. Which is 100% correct.
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Because silver can't be bought and mixed in.
Next Hoard (Score:3)
Leave it in the ground... (Score:5, Informative)
The sad thing is that by digging it up he's destroyed the archaeological context which might have shown why it was buried, when, and, to some extent, who by. The end of the Roman period in Britain is a very interesting period of history, but one about which we have far too little information. Yes, it's great that these things get found, but when you've found something, for heaven's sake leave it in the ground and alert the county archaeologists (or, technically, the coroner who will in turn alert the archaeologists, but...). You'll still get the 'treasure trove' value as the finder, and the context will get recorded.
What odd phrasing (Score:2)
That reads like he had no choice in the transaction. I half-expected the sentence to end with 'at gunpoint'.
40 Roman Coins? (Score:2)
Judas, that you?
wrong number and wrong coins (Score:4, Informative)
Judas was paid 30 denarians (which are SILVER). of course if you read The Dresden Files it becomes a plot point that all 30 became "cursed".
Not £100,000 (Score:5, Informative)
I seriously doubt it's worth £100,000, these stories always go over the top on the value quoting the price for mint coins in perfect condition in the existing market trading volumes. There was a recent very large hoard valued in the press at tens of millions of pounds, but the coins were so degraded they were worth only a fraction of their individual mint value, and there were so many coins in the hoard it would have depressed the market value if they had been sold.
The real worry here is the guy apparently didn't know what to do once he had found the coins, there are legal requirements to be met, and archaeological best practice to be followed. No-one should be sold a detector without first having to take a one-hour training course in their legal and moral obligations. That said, I work with responsible detectorists all the time, many are very good, but there are also many like this guy who do terrible damage.
So, how long until... (Score:2)
So, how long until metal detector sales increase?
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Informative)
as long as he has the landowners permission he can dig ,
he cannot sell them though
if it goes as treasure trove then him and the landowner get to share the value
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Informative)
as long as he has the landowners permission he can dig
With the obvious exception of land which covers scheduled monuments or Archaeological Priority Areas, where permission form English Heritage is needed (and rarely granted to individuals with metal detectors)
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Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba114/feat2.shtml [archaeologyuk.org]
The Property Act 1925, and subsequent judicial rulings, state that a person owns everything which is in their land. This has been understood to mean, as Lord Renfrew put it when writing about an iron age hoard (in Loot, Legitimacy and Ownership, Duckworth 2000), that "the original owner of the land where the finds were made [is...] their rightful owner". This assumption is correct – so long as the artefacts were not removed from the land by a person authorised to do so.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Interesting)
in Italy, if you find something on your own land, the owner of archaeological stuff is Italy, moreover the country can temporarily occupy the piece of land interested and the owner is entitled to indemnification.
This is why in Italy people does not find historical stuff on the owned lands...
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Interesting)
Regarding the owner, can you get back payment for rent from the government? They kept their property stored on your land for 2000 years.
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They kept their property stored on your land for 2000 years.
I don't have time to learn the entire history of land ownership of ancient Rome, but I doubt you owned the land 2000 years ago when the stuff was left there.
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Curiously enough, I doubt anyone else today did either! Thank you for bringing this highly salient point to our attention!
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Natural persons clearly not, but how about legal ones? Corporations can theoretically live forever.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:4, Informative)
If you find something in the U.S., keep your mouth shut or the Government takes the "historical" find, declares the site a national park and prevents anyone but scientists from studying/looting the treasure. Maybe not bad as all that, but you gotta be careful about showing what you found. If it's not worth all that much, you can "salvage" the site, just for the love of God, don't show them any gold or jewels. www.melfisher.com for an example of a successful salvage operator, who has incidentally, had trouble salvaging gold coin from shipwrecks in the past.
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You couldn't get two bits for an arrowhead back in the 60s. Now you can't legally pick one up.
Fucking politicians.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:4, Informative)
This depends on what is found.
The first thing to consider is if you own just the land, or if you also own the Mineral Rights. In most cases as long as you own the mineral rights you can pretty much do what you want.
However, if you live within a city, you have to think about laws which might restrict digging or excavation of any sort (at least, without a permit). You might find that, for example, you're too close to a protected wetland or waterway to come in with a bulldozer, but might be ok using hand-tools. And any type of commercial use of the land might also have some restrictions on it.
Now, there is one major exception to the "pretty much do what you want" rule of thumb:
If you find Native American artifacts, burial grounds, or settlement remains, there are special rules which can apply. Certain artifacts cannot legally be owned by non-Natives without certain permits (like feathers from a Bald Eagle).
There's usually some kind of "treasure hunters" association who can give you details specific to your area.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is true enough. Since the 1960's much of the US Government has been infected with Leftists who don't believe in Property rights. thus they have spent 50 years slowly whittling away at it through laws passed at midnight on a weekday, various "rules" passed by unelected leftists bureaucrats, and by activist leftist judges. All with the intent of placing into law that you DON'T actually own any land or anything on or in it. this has been happening both at federal and state levels, with the more leftis
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Lefties don't respect property rights?
The most egregious abuse of private property rights I have ever seen was in Connecticut where the right wingers took private land to make sure the shopping mall developers could make more money.
It was the liberals on the US Supreme Court that tried to stand against such illegal confiscation.
For reference:
http://www.law.pitt.edu/magazine/fall-2007/taking-homes-for-a-shopping-mall-the-abuse-of-eminent-domain-in-a-post-kelo-world [pitt.edu]
God right wingers are delusional.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:4, Informative)
It was the liberals on the US Supreme Court that tried to stand against such illegal confiscation.
Absolute hogwash. This is exactly the opposite of what happened.
Justices in the majority: Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer and Kennedy.
Dissenting justices: O'Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas
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Since the vast removal or proerty right in the US were NOT done by liberals, I think you might want to STFU before looking even more stupid.
The rest of your post is nonsense as well. They only thing more incorrect then your post, is your sig.
Seriously, you are stupid and factually wrong. I just thought someone should let you know so you can work on that.
Same in Egypt ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The same principle holds in Egypt: if you discover anything interesting while digging, you have to report it to the Department of Antiquities. They may take over the site and do a dig, or whatever they see fit.
This is why I know people, from Alexandria, who found Roman era amphorae while digging the foundation of their apartment building just take them home and never tell the authorities.
I myself have seen Roman earthenware come out on a government owned building when digging for a data center power cable. The managers just said keep quiet, otherwise it will delay our own project.
The stuff is not even sold or goes on the black market, it sits in storage at someone's balcony or dumped as rubbish.
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Similar things happen whenever land use rights get infringed. More than once I've seen a contractor say, "Wow, this species of tree is nearly extinct! Get rid of it before anyone sees it or we'll never get this project finished."
People really should put more thought into regulations like this, as they're not really motivating the desired behavior.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:5, Informative)
The search was on private land. So they person that owns the land owns the stuff
My feeling is that, in the UK, there is a reasonably large exception to this, which is where the find constitutes "treasure" for the purposes of the Treasure Act 1996 [legislation.gov.uk] (which has been extended by the Treasure (Designation) Order 2002 [legislation.gov.uk]).
Where a find is classified as treasure, it belongs to the Crown (or its franchisee, where there is one), "subject to prior interests and rights." (s4). Ownership of the *land* is not necessarily a sufficient prior interest or right here — to override the Crown's ownership, one would need to establish a right coming from the original owner of the treasure, such as being an heir to the treasure. (Paragraph 19 to The Treasure Act 1996 Code of Practice [finds.org.uk].)
The Act includes a duty to notify, within 14 days (s8).
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Does the title deed not establish a right?
It's a good question, and I do not know the answer — my gut feeling would be that the title deed establishes title to the land and that, if ownership of the land on which an item was found is sufficient, I would have expected (perhaps too much to expect) that the code of practice would make it clear that ownership of land constituted a relevant prior interest. Similarly, since property must always have an owner under English law (it reverts to the Crown if no other owner is traceable, via bona vacant
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Does the title deed not establish a right?
Not at all. This is an area where the UK is completely different to the US; the rights to what is below the surface of the land do not go with the rights to the surface of the land at all here. (This means that people are much more opposed to mining operations, fracking, etc.)
On the other hand, the award that you get for reporting your find properly is pretty good (though perhaps not as much as you'd get at a well-run auction). You don't get to keep the treasure, but you get financially compensated and the
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Trouble with laws like this is that it creates a large incentive for him to keep it quiet, melt them down and collect the raw value of the metal. Good for him for reporting it. I wonder if other caches went unreported?
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So the real question is what the equivalent rules are for Roman treasure finds here in the United States!
(No, I'm not being serious)
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Not much different in the U.K., well at least England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland might be different.
People who own land own the "freehold" which means they hold it free of rent to the Crown, which actually owns all the land. Thus the Crown can "confiscate" the land should it choose to do so, because it is there's in the first place. Though these days you do get compensated when they do so. One of the points of the Magna Carta was to stop the Crown arbitrarily seizing land from the Baron's.
Re:Good that he reported it (Score:4, Insightful)
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I've been making the case that you can't really "own" anything that can be confiscated for taxes either, but let's not run off a clockwork-driven ideological recording.
If you "own" the property, you can apply the taxes on it against other tax liabilities. You can often apply depreciation. Stuff you can't do when someone else "owns" it.
Eminent domain is another matter, but my observations have been that it's the government that's more often taken to the cleaners when they buy up property, not the owners. The
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Re:Not stolen by the banks (Score:4, Interesting)
The early bankers, were already looked upon with contempt...We can now see why, by looking at what can happen when they are given too much power....
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They had a much better system of banking in Roman times - They didn't have banks!
They didn't have politicians either.
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Yes they did, you blithering idiot.
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Nope, no politicians. And no concept of sarcasm until they learned it from the conquered Gauls.
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In the United States, it is a federal crime to even possess (let alone use) a metal detector on Federal Park property. This includes all national parks, historic sites, and some other locations owned by the government.
Several states also ban the possession and use of metal detectors on State-owned property.
Had he found this kind of stash in the US, it most certainly would have been confiscated by government in the name of national treasure or other such nonsense.
What?
Shop owners David Sewell and Mark Becher reported the find, and then joined a search party on the private land where the coins had been discovered. [hemeltoday.co.uk]
If he was on private land in the US, he can do whatever he wants. State/public owned land is quite different obviously and he has no rights to its contents but if private land, it's yours. Obviously we don't have the history here that our EU counterparts do so it's sort of understandable the limitations there are on finds.
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I heard that they've got so many to dispose of that if they don't find any more it'll still take them another 20 years. And every now and then a farmer or builder finds another bunker full of them.
Apparently WW1 gas shells are the worst. The contents have to be extracted very carefully, then passed through chemicals to react with & neutralize the gas. This of course depends on the type of gas, and it can be difficult to read markings on stuff that's been buried for 90 years.