Thousands of Natural Gas Leaks Found In Boston 179
poofmeisterp writes "Due to old cast iron underground pipelines, natural gas leaks run amok in Boston, MA. '"While our study was not intended to assess explosion risks, we came across six locations in Boston where gas concentrations exceeded the threshold above which explosions can occur," Nathan Phillips, associate professor at BU, said in a statement.' With 'a device to measure methane' in a vehicle equipped with GPS, Duke and Boston University researchers created a nice little map showing the methane levels in parts per million at different points in the city. 'Repairing these leaks will improve air quality, increase consumer health and safety, and save money,' study researcher Robert B. Jackson, of Duke, said in a statement. 'We just have to put the right financial incentives into place.' It looks like money is an issue. Imagine that."
"Money is an issue" (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but money is always an issue for literally everything. We live in a world of finite workers and resources, and thus the abstraction of that, which we call money, is an important limiting factor on any task, no matter what the risk or rewards. The amusing irony is that treating money like its not a factor makes money more of a factor, by causing the limitations to appear at unexpected times.
Re:"Money is an issue" (Score:4, Insightful)
1.6 mil workers in USA not employed.
Plastic/Steel/Copper pipes. I think Steel and Copper can be recycled.
Cost is valued based on revenue generated, not based on "Finite resources".
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In an immediate sense, which is part of why money is an abstraction rather than a literal stand-in. I'm not advocating neo-liberalism here, I'm just saying every choice to do something is an implicit choice to not do quite as much of something else.
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Those workers aren't employed because there aren't enough businesses with unfilled jobs to employ them. In turn, there aren't enough employers because there aren't enough people buying stuff, because people don't have enough money. So yeah, money is still the limiting factor.
And guess what it takes to recycle steel and copper? Time and resources (i.e. money).
Re:"Money is an issue" (Score:5, Interesting)
> Those workers aren't employed because there aren't enough businesses with unfilled jobs to employ them.
or.....
Those workers aren't employed because there aren't enough businesses with unfilled jobs, that they are qualified to be employed in.
There might, in fact, be plenty of jobs for people willing to learn how to work with steel and copper, but, in case you haven't noticed, picking up those skills isn't exactly high on most people's todo list.
Or as I said to someone the other day.... a college degree is great, but, a high tech manufacturing sector isn't going to keep its machines running, much less set them up and use them, on what you learned getting your MBA or history degree.
While its true, we need generic businessmen, and accountants, historians, and even telephone sanitizers; can we possibly admit that we have too many people aspiring to be on the "third ship" so to speak.
An MBA is not just about accounting ... (Score:2)
.... a college degree is great, but, a high tech manufacturing sector isn't going to keep its machines running, much less set them up and use them, on what you learned getting your MBA or history degree. While its true, we need generic businessmen, and accountants, historians, and even telephone sanitizers; can we possibly admit that we have too many people aspiring to be on the "third ship" so to speak.
There is a common misconception that MBAs are all about accounting and finance, its not true. Unlike other master's degrees where one goes deeper into some particular field, an MBA is more of a survey of all the parts of an organization (accounting/finance, strategy, marketing, information technology, product development, project management, operations/manufacturing, law, ...) plus some outside forces that will affect it (macroeconomics, human behavior - consumer, employee and leadership), ... Those enteri
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It means we're working some people harder than we should and throwing others to the wolves for no good reason (and daddy needs that third yacht is NOT a good reason).
We have time and we have resources. They're just being malinvested in the lifestyles of the rich and shameless.
Recycling is "free" for the company (Score:2)
And guess what it takes to recycle steel and copper? Time and resources (i.e. money).
Nope, it doesn't cost the company a damn thing. My grandfather spent decades tearing up old natural gas pipelines and replacing them. The sweetest words he every heard from the company came when he asked what to do with the old pipes. They were told "the company does not want them, give them to whoever will take them". My grandfather, his company crew and the local subcontractors who assisted on these pipeline replacement jobs took the pipes to the scrap yard (metal recycler) and split the proceeds. Local c
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We live in a world of finite workers and resources, and thus the abstraction of that, which we call money, is an important limiting factor on any task, no matter what the risk or rewards.
I would disagree.
The problem is that the utility's liability is not high enough to motivate them to spend money fixing the problems.
As a thought experiment: Imagine that the city told the gas utility that there are going to be fines of $1 million per leak (for >3,300 leaks).
Suddenly, the limiting factor is time and labor, not money, because fixing the problem is cheaper than paying the fines.
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So, what you're saying is that money is not a factor when money is made into a factor? Color me confused.
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I think a better thought experiment would be the city removing obstacles in the utility's way making it cheaper for them to repair the leaks. For instance, why does it cost 1.5 mil to dig a hole and patch a pipe? If it is labor, suspend the minimum and/or prevailing wage requirements on those specific projects, perhaps lax some of the training requirements for the portions of the job that doesn't involve safety sensitive operations. Don't require the entire pipeline to be upgraded and allow just the portion
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I think you get exactly what you pay for with utilities. They are highly regulated. As for psychotics, I believe your more of the problem then the solution. Wages weren't the only thing mentioned. Lower wages might not even be needed as part of the solution. But keep deluding yourself into thinking it's everything.
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I don't think so. The rates and services are generally known and regulated before you purchase them and the accounting is pretty accurate. It's not like you are going to be getting 60 volts instead of 120 or naphthalene instead of propane or natural gas.
Unless you are trying to say the utilities are generally over priced. Then I would agree.
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"why does it cost 1.5 mil to dig a hole and patch a pipe?"
engineering, laying pipe, testing remove old pipe properly putting the street back together all costs money.
It isn't 1.5 million to " dig a hole and patch a pipe"
Anyways, there are a lot of reason why ti's expensive. Mostly your ignorance on what it takes do do this work and keep a city running.
I suggest you study civil engineering. You come up with a better way that works, you will be rich.
Or do you thinking the utilities should just be able to dig
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Lol.. I don't have to study civil engineering to ask the fucking question. How stupid is that- requiring someone to be an expert to ask a question is ridiculous. So you are saying that nothing, absolutely nothing can be done to lower the costs of digging a hole that was already d
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It's a good question and, without doing any more research than having lived near Boston for 50 years, I'll say it's because Boston is a clusterfuck (Hub of the Universe. is what they tell us).
Just take a look at the Big Dig project and you'll understand. Boston has its charm but it has always been, and will always be, a civil engineering nightmare.
Dealing with old pipes is complicated ... (Score:2)
So you are saying that nothing, absolutely nothing can be done to lower the costs of digging a hole that was already dug once before and patching or replacing a pipe that was already laid in the hole at some point in time where all the engineering and studies were already done at one time. I say hogwash. Some thing could be done if they wanted to that could reduce the costs of maintaining the pipes.
My grandfather spent decades (1950s-70s) replacing the sort of pipes described, old cast iron gas lines. These lines were probably installed around 1900. The lines were not necessarily well documented back in those days. Plus some documentation from 100 years ago probably got lost, especially if the work was originally done by a private company. Also in the 100 years since the original installation other things may have been installed over these lines. In certain areas it was common for my grandfather (repr
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And the city takes over the gas company and keeps the gas flowing.
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The money to afford the lost gas is coming from somewhere now. Perhaps it should be spent to stop losing the gas instead.
Re:"Money is an issue" (Score:4, Insightful)
We always manage to find money for war (including the war on some drugs) and the TSA.
Unlike those, fixing the leaks would have a quantifiable benefit in addition to the more difficult to quantify safety improvements.
I would suggest spinning it as a potential terrorist threat, but fear the 'solution' would be DHS patrolling the streets confiscating lighters.
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That's a different argument. I agree that there is misallocation of resources, but to say "money doesn't matter" is sticking one's head in the sand.
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Yep, it's not like "supply and demand" is a concept firmly rooted in strictly abstract price points.
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Re:"Money is an issue" (Score:4, Informative)
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Yeah, other people's lives are valueless.
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Ye sit is, and you are ignorant on tat subject. You are also stupid for saying things about topic you clearly no nothing about.
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money shouldn't be an issue (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not sure how things work in Boston, but in areas where gas is provided by a regulated public utility, there is little cost to the company for infrastructure improvements. They identify infrastructure that needs to be replaced/upgraded, go to the PUC with the list of improvements and petition for a rate increase to pay for them. Then, in theory, the company is supposed to make the improvements, but that doesn't always happen, PG&E in California has been known to ask for money for specific improvements, then spending the money on other things.
How can money not be an issue? (Score:3)
Do the magic gas fairies provide the money? Because otherwise, it's an issue. Just where do you think the PUC or the Commonwealth of Mass. analog is going to get that money they give to the gas company? Have you noticed how broke and dysfunctional your state and its budget are?
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Natural gas occupies a somewhat unusual market position for a "utility", where it can actually compete purely on price against its competition. Currently, you see people changing over en masse because they can cut their winter heating bill in half. If that advantage were less dramatic (or even nonexistent), natural gas would all but vanish overnig
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I'm not sure how things work in Boston, but in areas where gas is provided by a regulated public utility, there is little cost to the company for infrastructure improvements.
Just because their mechanism for getting funds is unusual doesn't mean there's little cost.
In fact, it's worse than that. The company's income is held hostage by local government, and if that government is controlled by short-sighted fiscal conservatives who equate rate hikes with higher taxes, then people's lives can be put at danger. Those who believe in "no new taxes" no matter what put us all in danger!
PG&E in California has been known to ask for money for specific improvements, then spending the money on other things.
Which has recently led to things like an explosion [wikipedia.org] that destroyed nearly 40 houses in a suburban neigh
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I'm not sure how things work in Boston, but in areas where gas is provided by a regulated public utility, there is little cost to the company for infrastructure improvements. They identify infrastructure that needs to be replaced/upgraded, go to the PUC with the list of improvements and petition for a rate increase to pay for them. Then, in theory, the company is supposed to make the improvements, but that doesn't always happen, ...
My grandfather worked for such a regulated public gas utility in the north east and that is how it worked. The cast iron pipes described in Boston sound like the gas lines he dug up and replaced in the 1950s-70s. They were originally installed around 1900. Such cast iron gas lines were considered troublesome and dangerous many decades ago.
Everything works on money (Score:2)
We are all motivated by rewards and penalties. Money is just the convertible currency for this.
Once the insurance industry gets hold of the map, money will see the fixes are made.
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We are all motivated by rewards and penalties. Money is just the convertible currency for this.
Once the insurance industry gets hold of the map, money will see the fixes are made.
Nonsense. These are parts per million leaks for the most part. Not necessarily dangerous. How many streets or buildings have mysteriously blown up over the past several decades?
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Nstar has a less than stellar record with maintain the metal.
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Not a lot, and that's do yo infrastructure spending.
But has infrastructure spending decline in lieu of bonuses, you will see more.*
This example in Boston was a lucky break,. Becasue of they are loosing that much gas, and the utilities haven't don't anything about it, then they aren't likely to have done anything anytime soon. Or maybe they where just getting ready to fix them.
*as opposed as paddle balls in lieu of pay. (Thanks Mel books!)
Beantown (Score:2, Funny)
Are they sure it isn't just the beans?
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Are they sure it isn't just the beans?
One match and the place could go up like Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Hmmm .... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm thinking he can expect a visit from Homeland Security on this one -- now the terrorists know how to blow up Boston. :-P
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Never forget
How about not wasting gas into the air? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Nope, like most such things, the inventory loss is accounted for, and already passed onto the consumer buried in a line item.
I'd be very surprised to hear those companies are eating this cost. And, if they're just passing it on to the consumers, they don't really suffer any loss, and therefore don't care.
In the same way that I have to pay a security fee when I fly so some flunky can grab my junk, it i
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In my state, the gas distribution companies are allowed a set percentage of lost and unaccounted for gas (gas the company buys but doesn't sell to customer and no longer has). As long as the company stays within that acceptable range, they have little reason to care about further reductions since that offset is built into their rate. However, being above that rate means they blowing money out holes in the pipes.
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Depends, with anything like this you have to ask a few questions.
What is the cost of fixing the leak?
What is the cost of the product that leaks per year at current prices?
Is there any other cost to you for the leakage?
What is the remaining lifetime on the pipe before it comes up for scheduled replacement anyway?
Based on these questions and various financial figures for the utility (what is their cost of funds? does the rate calculation algorithm consider the utility's spending and if so in what way? what is
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What is the cost of fixing the leak?
What is the cost of the product that leaks per year at current prices?
Is there any other cost to you for the leakage?
Obligatory: Mr. Durden? Is that you?
Financial Incentives (Score:4, Insightful)
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The chances of your property in particular exploding though are pretty low, low enough that most people seem to put off getting these kinds of things inspected or fixed.
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Except that the people who would own and or maintain the infrastructure aren't the ones whose property might blow up.
This is closer to me saying "you need to fix your gas leak or my property might explode". Unless I can get you to take on legal responsibility in case it happens, what is the incentive for you to fix the leak?
This isn't property owners who aren't fixing their own property -- this is infrastructure type stuff.
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also known as "location, location, location."
Sequels Suck (Score:5, Funny)
Don't blame the cows, blame the brahmins! (Score:4, Funny)
Who knew that global warming/climate change was caused by Boston? That fossil fuel argument was just a smokescreen for what really causes climate change: Boston Baked Beans!
It's cheaper to ignore it (Score:2)
cost-to-fix vs. cost-to-take-a-chance. Chance always wins.
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cost-to-fix vs. cost-to-take-a-chance. Chance always wins.
Yeah.. Then ship hits the fan.. Now engage "hide all the documents, emails, and other shit you can so it looks like we were going to fix it" mode.
Given that this is Boston... (Score:4, Insightful)
Someone should attach a circuit board along with some wires and blinking lights to the gas pipelines. That should get the government right on top of the problem.
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For those who don't know the reference:
Aqua Teen Hunger Force Brings Boston to a Halt [slashdot.org]
I believe it.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Some of our infrastructure is OLD. A lot of it.
Recently, we were dealing with my grandmother on the first floor. She would call saying she smelled gas, so she would open the windows then call us upstairs, of course, we couldn't smell it.... after a few times we called. They came and said our pipes were old, put some wax sealant on and suggested we fix them soon.
I didn't doubt their diagnosis, the house has had gas longer than electricity....
Then a few days later she smelled it again... this time we ended up with a whole crew down,....not in our house... but going up and down the street. Apparently it wasn't our pipes...there was a leak under the road across the street!
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Last winter I stepped out my front door and smelled gas and called NSTAR and they came out with a truck and detectors and the whole lot. They smelled it too, but the concentration wasn't high enough to call it an emergency, so they put me on a repair list. Two weeks later I come home to find the street in front of my house spray painted by DigSafe and a note on my door saying I need to be home the next day. They came, ran a liner in the pipe from the main to my house, connected it inside, and were gone. No
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OH yeah, for relevance this is in a town just north of Boston.
Where is the control? (Score:2, Redundant)
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In New Zealand, 47% of greenhouse emissions are from the agriculture sector, 35% of that is methane from cows and sheep. That's more than the transport (19%) and power (26%) sectors combined. (the left overs are 6% industry and 2% waste)
hang on (Score:4, Informative)
Methane is only flammable in air between 50,000ppm and 150,000ppm
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
or, don't fix the leaks and say goodnight, Gracie (Score:2)
sounds like a BOOM! town to me.
My experience in Boston with a gas leak... ugh! (Score:4, Interesting)
I live in a dense residential neighborhood in a metro-suburb right next to Boston and have an active gas leak outside my house. You can smell it two houses in both directions.
The gas company has been here twice. The fire department once. The town fire chief actually called an emergency number at the gas company to ask them to fix it.
Guess what? No fix... 4 months and counting.
The party line the gas company has been giving me is (paraphrased)... "There are too many leaks in the area, so we are triaging. Unless the gas is actively leaking INTO the house (as opposed to outside of the house), we won't fix it for now. Given the Hurricane Sandy response in the mid-atlantic region, things are pushed back even further. We'll keep monitoring the leak. Trust us."
Uh, huh... yeah, my house is going to blow up. Or at the least, one of my trash cans on the curb is turning into a bottle rocket.
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Massachusetts explosions can cause Massachusetts lacerations and Massachusetts severe burns and welts? Who would have thought!?
Dublin's gas leaks were as bad (Score:4, Informative)
In the 1980s, Dublin gas network had 100s km of cast iron pipes, some 100 years old. The cast iron pipes were connected together by waxed joints, these joints were stable when moist Town Gas (coal gas) flowed through the pipes but when the city changed over to natural gas, which is dry, the wax dried out and the gas leaked. Town Gas was generated by passing superheated steam over coal, creating a gas containing hydrogen, methane and notoriously, carbon monoxide.
In the late 1980s I could not walk more than 100 feet along suburban street before coming across an overpowering stench of leaking gas. One of the temporary fixes was to drill holes into side-walks to reduce the concentration of gas underground. I don't remember any gas explosions or accidents caused by leaking cast iron pipes then the leaks happened, given the number of leaks we were very lucky.
By the way, almost half of the water supply in Dublin in lost through leaks (worst in Europe).
Greenhouse gas? Storm and septic sewers? (Score:2)
I hate it when an article raises more questions than it answers, especially questions directly related to procedure and which may negate the entire premise of the article.
Most old cities have combined storm and septic sewer systems. One of the hazards of such sewer systems is methane. Did they account for any such sewers in their methane scan?
And regardless of the explosion hazard, or simply the cost of the gas or some deterioration in air quality, methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2. And if y
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From article:
with a device to measure methane, the chief chemical component of natural gas
They didn't specify that it was coming from natural gas, just made reference to it.
Your point could be very valid in identifying the main source!
Sewage shit (yes, I want to use that word strongly here) builds up over time and creates more stoppage points for festering.
Re:Shhh... (Score:5, Funny)
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It's a good thing the Olympic torch didn't get run through there
Re:Shhh... (Score:4, Funny)
Are you kidding? Watching someone holding the Olympic torch, running through the streets, leaving a trail of explosions in their wake would make for the most EPIC Olympic opening ceremony EVER!
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Re:Does Boston really smell that bad? (Score:5, Funny)
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Why? you can have clean rivers in Urban areas if you try.
For example, we now have trout returning to two main rivers in Dublin, Ireland (the Liffey and the Tolka, I believe).
Increasingly people are swimming (again?) in urban rivers in Europe. can be done.
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Well, now that the Charles River is, I believe, the cleanest water way in an urban city in the world, then other smells start to get noticed more.
I'm not sure about that. It's certainly very much improved, according to this article [boston.com], but I don't see a claim that it's now the cleanest -- it has a B+ rating, so there's room for further improvement.
This article [greendiary.com] lists the Thames, but I don't believe that (I live in London). It's not bad, and this [telegraph.co.uk] suggests a lot has improved (and I've seen some newly-created wetland areas and they do indeed have lots of birds etc). But it still gets sewage dumped into it after heavy rain.
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Maybe not?
Methane on its own doesn't have a smell. For safety, another gas like methanethiol is typically added, so that people can detect leaks.
Perhaps these leaks are pure methane?
Re:Does Boston really smell that bad? (Score:4, Informative)
Natty gas with H2S in it (aka: sour gas) smells like rotten eggs. However, at around 100ppm, you quit smelling it and you start dying instead. At 1000 ppm, one inhalation and you are dead.
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In rural areas, customers are often served by farm taps on well gathering lines or transmission lines. The gathering lines are usually odorized but transmission lines can be a real problem. Transmission companies are not required to add odorant to their lines. The local distribution company has nothing but a regulator and meter sitting on the transmission line. Many of these taps are simply out of compliance and have no smell.
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Old Media saves the day.
http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/11/20/boston-riddled-with-mostly-small-natural-gas-leaks-boston-university-study-finds/m1LvyBqHhdVhCQEZM60mwJ/igraphic.html [bostonglobe.com]
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Don't forget to factor in the cost of lawsuits when entire neighborhoods get vaporized!
Unless that was part of the $200m.
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The combustible gas indicator that you're talking about is almost certainly calibrated in percent of Lower Exp
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Re:Spend more not do anything (Score:4, Informative)
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/14/us-boston-fire-idUSBRE82D0DS20120314 [reuters.com]
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Re:Thousands what? (Score:5, Insightful)
"leaks" you fucking moron
Learn to read for fuck's sake.
3,300 natural gas leaks
diagram the sentence in your mind (Score:2)
leaks is the object. 3300, and gas are modifiers to the object. natural is a modifier to gas.
let's look at your work... THERE is a conjunctive, place as subject, check. ARE, passive tense of IS, verb, check. wait, what is HEY! SQUIRREL! doing in there?
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Here in BC a building exploded from a natural gas leak some ten+ years ago. The leak was not in the building but some distance away, and the gas traveled through the soil to reach the building. This was a well-used building, yet nobody noticed the mercaptan smell. Gas company experts concluded that in its passage through the soil, the marker compounds got stripped from the gas by the same process that makes gas chromatography work -- larger molecules are slowed by passage through what was effectively a pack
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is involved, so nothing will be done until there is a huge explosion that kills hundreds. Then Government will make a law that repairs must be done within 30 days of detection of a leak. Gas companies will sue, stating that the new law violates their constitutional right to free speach. By the time the lawsuits, countersuits, apeals etc...are done, Boston will have burned to the ground and been abandoned for 30 years...
Hey, destruction (earthquake, but still... lots of fires and destroyed buildings) worked in San Francisco..... in 1906. Wonder if it would help "rebuild" a city today.