Is It Time For the US To Ditch the Dollar Bill? 943
coondoggie writes "It seems well past time that the U.S. ditch its $1 bill — considering such a move could save the country somewhere in the neighborhood of $4 billion. But there is much resistance, or perhaps a lack of real consideration of the issue from most people. Watchdogs at the Government Accountability Office this week testified before a Congressional hearing on the topic, and said dollar coins could save $4.4 billion over 30 years (PDF), or an average of about $146 million per year."
I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Funny)
Dollar coins at the strip club sounds both dangerous and hilarious.
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
That will just bump the tips up to higher denominations.
Re: (Score:3)
not if the strippers are of the same caliber as they are now.
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sweet!!!
You mean we'd get an immediate price drop for the usual $1.25+ it costs in the machines nowdays?!?!
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:4, Interesting)
I can't find a machine to vend 12 oz cans.
There are still around. I have seen quite few of them this week on Auto Repair Shops. I noted that the cheaper the soda can price ( Cheapest was $0.60 USD) the cheaper the quote. Most expensive was $0.90 USD
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
That is so much crap. Within a few weeks of dollar coins being out vending machines would be updated. They are a business and need to be able to take your money. Canada converted to $1 coins and then $2 coins, lots of EU countries completely changed their currencies and things kept working etc. The gov might have to give incentives to help particular industries convert initially but over but the long term it will work out.
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Most vending machines these days take dollar coins. The reason the vending machine industry wants to keep the dollar bill is that it's a lot easier to get a slug past the coin mech than it is to get a counterfeit $1 past the bill acceptor.
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
Um, no. The vending machine industry (under the name Dollar Coin Alliance [dollarcoinalliance.org]) doesn't want to keep the dollar bill; they're the primary lobby for getting rid of it. To quote them, "Jammed $1 bills in vending machines cost the industry hundreds of millions in annual repair costs and lost sales."
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
From what I've heard, vending machine manufacturers and operators hate dollar bills. Those scanners are easily faked out, but also have a high false-negative rate, get jammed with damaged bills, frustrate customers whose bills aren't new enough, etc. Vendors only started adding them to machines because they didn't want people to have to feed half a dozen (or more) coins into a machine to get a Pepsi.
A one-time conversion to accept $5 and $1 coins would result in much less hassle for the vending machine folks, because coin-counting devices are fairly difficult to fake out (you can't produce counterfeit metal quarters with a computer and inkjet printer) and much more reliable.
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Informative)
You say that, but here in the UK, we introduced £2 coins ($3.2USD - must admit, I find a note for around 60p crazy, our lowest note is £5, or $8USD) and while, yes, there was a small period in which it was a little awkward, fast forward a few years and it was all sorted. It really didn't take long.
There are a lot of calls here to scrap 1p/2p coins, actually, as everyone doesn't really value them, and there is literally nothing you buy for less than 5p any more.
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Nothing is stopping you from buying gold.
Re:End fiat currency! End THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Aside from the price!
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They also killed the Liberty Dollar, which was backed by silver and gold, calling its founder a "domestic terrorist". Seriously.
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Re:End fiat currency! End THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!! (Score:4, Informative)
The gold standard wasn't the problem. The problem is that people weren't bright enough realize it is easier to divide the dollar to further decimal places than to divide a piece of gold.
Re:End fiat currency! End THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:End fiat currency! End THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
I once thought this way too. But it is possible. Instead of a $1 USD buying a loaf a bread, it might actually buy 4 loaves of bread. I wish I could find the post that pointed this out, but I'm too lazy. We would still have money, but it would be worth more in the long run.
MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Exactly. Here's some reading for you.
Link [realclearmarkets.com]
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Money BACKED by gold and silver doesn't have to be made of gold and silver. You could fix the dollar to the gram for instance. You can never have more dollars in the system than you do grams of gold at that point. This might seem to limit how much currency is usable but there is no particular reason the dollar can't be divided into smaller units than hundredths.
Re:MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with the gold standard is that it uses a division principle to adjust for inflation so that the rich get markedly richer while the poor literally starve. The point of fiat currency is that the stronger your GDP is the more money you can print without hurting your economy. Thus the guy who sits on his 100 million at 3% interest will meet inflation but the average worker every time we raise the minimum wage will see a vastly larger benefit. In short we need fiat currency to keep a modern economy working because of the huge surplus labor pool mixed with the insanely large world economy.
Re:MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it causes deflation.
Gold is basically fixed in quantity. Mining has little effect on the overall supply.
As the economy grows and the money supply is fixed, the value of money increases.
This shifts wealth to those people who hold cash, a non-productive asset.
This increase real interest rates, deterring investments in productive assets.
It is a horrible, horrible thing.
See “A Monetary History of the United States “ by Milton Friedman
Re:MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
That is nonsense. Money is is divisible. If your gold coin is worth too much to by a pair of boots, you exchange it for a smaller denomination. Deflation doesn't matter.
The requirement to use smaller denominations, mean the higher denominations are worth more. It seems that you are admitting deflation happens, but hand waving it away with a suggestion that it "doesn't matter". There is a lot of literature out there that says otherwise, and it is quite unlikely that deflation doesn't matter, so if you want to say deflation doesn't matter or is better than the current situation, then, the burden of proof is on you to show that.
Deflation has tangible negative effects on folks that are not rich -- when you borrow some money, the deflationary effect essentially means that you might never be able to pay back the loan, because the value of the gold in real terms that you have to pay back is increasing, on top of the actual interest charges; you can't know the economic growth in advance....
If the economic growth doesn't happen, there's no job for you to get to repay your loan or buy a house. If the economic growth does happen, and you owe money, then your debt becomes as much more burdensome as the rate of inflation caused by that growth, with a non-fiat currency.
It also means, that as the economy grows, wages will continuously go down -- a certain amount of gold becomes worth more over time, therefore, to be paying the same rate, the employers have to continuously decrease the amount of gold paid, and employers who hold large quantities of money have the advantage, since they receive money from the revenue making activities of their business, and there is a delay before they pay employees; whereas, in an inflationary environment, wages continuously increase, and this works to the disadvantage of the employer who has large quantities of cash, and to the advantage of the lower/middle-class laborers .
You can not increase the wealth and quality of life by inducing inflation.
Sure you can... inflation acts as a stimulus, encouraging new investment and revenue generating activities; just leaving your money in the bank is marginally penalized, due to the gradual decrease in value.
Investment is rewarded, with inflation and economic growth -- resulting in more productive use of the money, then sticking it in a bank account.
Non-inflationary currency rewards stagnation --- leave your money in safe keeping. It will just continuously be worth more and more over time, and you will need smaller and smaller denominations to pay for products and services with.
This means the other businesses you are buying products from, and laborers you are buying services from are at a disadvantage, because over time they are receiving smaller and smaller denominations of gold for their services.
E.g. You get just an artificial reward for holding onto the currency you obtained, before demand increased, instead of investing in profitable activities.
Not that there is a problem with saving money -- but it is nothing to base a system of trade on, at least not one that is expected to excel.
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:4, Funny)
How to get a free dental extraction in Canada:
1) Grab a couple "Loonies" ($1 coins) and some big bills.
2) Head to the strip club
3) Get shitfaced. Trust me, you'll need the anesthesia.
4) Use your lighter to heat the $1 coin until you can't handle it
5) Throw hot coin at the stripper
6) Repeat
7) Wait patiently for the "surgeon" to take you to his alley, er, office.
8) ???
9) No teeth!
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As a Canadian, I can tell you that Canadian strippers hate Americans and their dollar bills. Minimum Canadian tip is $5 - tossing coins on stage will get you thrown out :)
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I'll be the first to say... (Score:5, Funny)
So now you can answer that question your Momma always asked... "Go wash you hands,,, do you know where that thing's been!!!?
Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
This will not happen until Americans can let go of their irrational attachment to dollar bills and pennies.
In Australia we ditched $1 and $2 notes for coins in 1984 and 1988. 1c and 2c coins were dropped in 1992.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Funny)
In Australia we ditched $1 and $2 notes[...]
In the USA, we still like to pretend our currency has value.
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It's not a question of "irrational" - though that is the case. It's more a case of having a bunch of congresspeople who are technically invertebrates. If they had any spine at all, they would do what other close neighbors have done. Don't make a big PR push about "converting" - just stay shut up, and then stop printing the one dollar bills. After a few years, the problem will be an unproblem. And because it isn't a "changeover" shoved at the public, there won't be any organized resistance.
Given the way
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmm... George Washington, tits. George Washington, tits. It could work.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Funny)
You might wanna find out what actually happened in the US before laying on too much sanctimony.
We've tried to replace the dollar with coins three times so far, and it's failed.
The problem is the size and shape of the old dollar coins. They're very close to quarters in size and weight. In our first attempt, the dollar coins were also silver like the quarters. So it was hard to quickly identify which coins are dollars and which are quarters.
But while that mistake was going on, all sorts of equipment was built to accept dollar coins that were that size and shape. So when it came time for serious attempt #2 (Sacagawea dollar) the coin still had to be the same size and shape or every vending machine would have to be replaced. So they tried changing the color to gold in order to satisfy humans and machines.
Well, it was the only gold coin most people in the US have seen, so it was odd. And it still felt like a quarter in your pocket. So still didn't win much acceptance. Plus a lot of people responded to the name of the coin with "Sack a Jew what?"
We're trying again with the Presidential Dollar Coins. They're still close to quarters to satisfy the vending machines, and gold to try and satisfy the humans. And they've got "normal" names.
Realistically, the changeover will happen in one of three ways:
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is the size and shape of the old dollar coins. They're very close to quarters in size and weight.
No, the problem is the size and shape of the newer dollar coins. For most of US history, dollar coins (orginally silver) up until the Eisenhower (71-78) were logically larger than half dollars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower_dollar [wikipedia.org]
It was the '79 Susan B. Anthony that started the quarter/dollar confusion.
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Insightful)
You might wanna find out what actually happened in the US before laying on too much sanctimony.
We've tried to replace the dollar with coins three times so far, and it's failed.
Being in the UK where the pound note was replaced by a coin about 15 years ago, amid much moaning from some, I do not understand what is meant by "failed". So what happened? Did people throw them away when given them (in change or payement)? Or did they refuse the transaction entirely (and then do without the business)? Historically, there was great difficulty getting people to accept notes in the first place rather than coin; so what irony!
.....
In the UK, the pound coins just started appearing to the public in change from shops, and notes just disappeared over a timescale of a few weeks because, when they passed through a bank, the bank withdrew them (as they would withdraw worn-out notes). In fact once the process started people became reluctant to accept a pound note because they did not want to get stuck with it (although banks would accept them for a long time after).
Personally, I always find money very acceptable.. Yes, anyone could "refuse to accept" coins like they can alway "refuse to accept" cars, the Internet, electricity, the sun, rain, whatever
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Informative)
In the US, dollar bills were never withdrawn from circulation. Nobody made you take coins, you could always have bills. And that's what everybody continued to use, while the coins sat in the vaults, untouched.
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Informative)
They never produced enough of the dollars coins plus the cowardly Americans never did have the balls to phase out the dollar bill while introducing the coins.
In the end all the dollar coins ended up at collectors.
Another way of saying it: They never even tried. They never even tried three times.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason it failed was because the USA didn't actually make the decision to stop printing $1 bills.
Canada initially made a similar error when we introduced the loonie here. The $1 bill was not actually removed from circulation (they only reduced the number of $1 bills printed) for a number of months after the coin's introduction, during which the $1 bills that existed were wearing out faster (because people preferred them to coins and would use them so much more frequently), and this necessitated the mint printing more than initially estimated. The solution, Canada determined, was to discontinue the $1 bill entirely and increase production of the $1 coin to compensate.
It worked.
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The people also wanted a balanced budget and this was one step in that direction. We did end up with a balanced budget, at least until the right wingers came to power with their philosophy of cutting taxes, services and increasing spending on spying on citizens, locking people up and war. Nothing like no bid military contracts to create a deficit.
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The problem is the size and shape of the old dollar coins. They're very close to quarters in size and weight.
Yes. And the Susan B. Anthony's perhaps were confusing. But the Sacagawea's aren't confusing at all.
There's no "problem" except the fact that the Treasury Department keeps printing dollar bills. Stop printing them, and people will stop using them. People use what is familiar... and if you have two things in circulation that do the same thing and one is less familiar, people will continue to use the old one.
But just stop handing out the old ones. The average life of a dollar bill in circulation is p
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
We've tried to replace the dollar with coins three times so far, and it's failed.
We've never been without dollar coins, since 1776. It's the greenback that's new.
The problem is the size and shape of the old dollar coins. They're very close to quarters in size and weight.
Until coins marked 1965 and newer, all reeded US coins (dimes, quarters, halves, dollars) were 0.9 fine silver; the reeding was to discourage filing of the precious metal. The values of the coins were based on their weight in silver, a ratio (though not their original weights) that persists today: a half-dollar weighs as much as two quarters, which weighs as much as five dimes, and any combination of all three that equals $20 weighs 1 lb avoirdupois.
After all circulating coins were reduced to base metals, the Eisenhower dollar coin was introduced in 1971. However, it was the same size as the old (true) silver dollars, weighing as much as four quarters, proving to be an unwieldy size. This large size made sense when they were minted of precious metal, but not so much with base metal. It failed to catch on.
(Meanwhile, the half-dollar fell out of common circulation, because everyone obsessed over JFK.)
The Anthony dollar of 1979 was an effort to fix this. In order to distinguish it from other denominations, it was originally going to be a different shape: a curve of continuous width, with 11 sides (in honor of Apollo 11, whose mission patch was on the reverse). This original feature can be seen in the artwork of the coin, with both the obverse and reverse having a hendecagon inscribed around the edge. However, coin-operated machinery operators were concerned about the reliability of their equipment accepting such an unusual shape at the time, resulting in a last-minute change to a circular coin.
It should be noted that Canada essentially copied the Anthony dollar's original design in their current "loonie," only changing the color. The number 11 doesn't hold the historical significance to Canada as it does to the US, but the loonie has 11 sides just the same.
So when it came time for serious attempt #2 (Sacagawea dollar) the coin still had to be the same size and shape or every vending machine would have to be replaced.
As noted above, the loonie is the same thickness and diameter as the Anthony dollar. In addition to this, Canadian pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters are also the same size and shape (and color) as US coins of the same denomination. (Half-dollars are different, but are rarely seen in either country regardless.)
Because of this, coin-sorting equipment can be made to easily switch between US and Canadian coins, which only really differ in weight and metallurgy (i. e. magnetic signature). Keeping the newer golden dollars the same size and shape as the Anthony dollars wasn't just a matter of backwards-compatibility but cross-compatibility as well. The yellow color of the golden US dollars also continues the trend of using the same colors for the same denominations.
The real issue for the golden dollar was maintaining the same magnetic signature as the Anthony dollar, in spite of using a different color alloy.
And it still felt like a quarter in your pocket.
Until you feel the smooth edge. It doesn't have the loonie's corners, but it's still easily distinguished from quarters by touch, just as you can distinguish between quarters and nickels, and between dimes and pennies.
We're trying again with the Presidential Dollar Coins.
Past tense. Production was halted prematurely this year, with Grover Cleveland's first term.
Besides, they were always intended as a limited issue, much like the "50 State Quarters" program. Sacagawea dollars were minted alongside them, along with some special, limited-issue reverses reflecting "Native American heritage." The only permanent change is moving "In God We Trust" from the edge-printing to the obverse, after a certain well-publicized snafu with the Presidential dollars.
we still don't have metric for chrissake (Score:5, Insightful)
if you hadn't noticed, there's a particularly loud virulent strain of "oppose all common sense progress as evil" in the USA
i know such stubborn blockheadedness isn't unique to the USA. but they seem more powerful here. how do other countries quash this loud ignorant sort?
Re:we still don't have metric for chrissake (Score:5, Insightful)
how do other countries quash this loud ignorant sort?
Free education.
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I was recently in Australia for a week, and in that time, I found $4 on the street - two $1 coins and a $2 coin. Now losing a couple quarters is no big deal - worth maybe a can of soda. But lose a couple of the quite small $2 coins, and there goes a latte - and you know how us Americans are with our Starbucks! With such small but high-value coins, the wealth that's caught in the couch cushions down under could probably solve the financial crisis of a small European country!
Seriously though, I prefer plastic
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
It was a failure because the US didn't pull the $1 bill out of circulation.
Canada started withdrawing paper $1 bills when the $1 coin was introduced. If you didn't want a $1 coin in your change, within a few weeks all a store could give you instead was quarters or smaller instead. That got rid of a lot of people's resistance. (Mind, we still had $2 bills and they were increased in circulation, but they were withdrawn in the same manner for a $2 coin a few years later.)
Before long no one worries about it anymore. It is what it is and people get used to it.
We've lost 10-cent bus fare, 10-cent payphone calls and 1-cent candy and managed to do just fine. We can live without small bills too.
(Perhaps interestingly, the Canadian paper money in largest circulation is not the $5, it's the $20 bill... because of bank machines.)
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Hi. I'm right here in the good old USA, and I can confirm for everybody that is in fact 100% an irrational attachment.
It's a relatively recent development, too. I was around in the 1970s, and I don't recall anybody back then insisting that the government introduce 1/4-cent pieces and paper 25-cent bills to address the value points filled by the current dollars and pennies.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Informative)
The British (technically, English) £1 note was abandoned before I was born, but here's an article from the time: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2012/nov/13/pound-note-replaced-coin-1984 [guardian.co.uk]
And here's another: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/12/newsid_2518000/2518637.stm [bbc.co.uk]
British coins are very easy to tell apart -- low-value (½p, discontinued), 1p and 2p are brown with plain edges, mid value coins are silver: 5p and 10p are thin and have milled edges, 20p and 50p are heptagonal with plain edges; £1 and £2 are gold-coloured and thick.
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Originally the 5p and 10p coins were minted to be the same size and weight as the shilling and florin (2 shilling piece) as it aided the transition to decimalisation in 1971 from pounds, shillings and pence and were worth the same. As the banks received shillings they were replaced with the new pence equivalent. The half crown (12 1/2p) and crown (25p) were withdrawn immediately and the heptagonal 50p piece replaced the 10 shilling note. The Royal Mint started minting 50p pieces a full two years before deci
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, my wife bitches when I say we should get rid of pennies and just have purchase totals rounded up or down to the nearest five cents.
Her: "But the retailers will price everything so it gets rounded up!"
Me: "No, multiple item purchases will make it just as likely to round down, and that's only for cash transactions."
Her: "But I still may pay more when I go to the store!"
Me: "Uh yeah, If you make 10 CASH transactions per week you might pay about 30 cents more per week, or about $15/year."
Her: "It's a way to rip me off!"
She makes over $100K/year. People like her are why we will always be stuck with pennies.
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We could always revalue the currency, so that pennies, nickles, and so on are actually relevant denominations again. But that would really drive home to the public how much inflation there's been in their lifetimes, and the government certainly doesn't want anyone thinking about the causes of inflation...
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Informative)
It's a small price to pay for a nice body and a healthy sex drive, though.
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Not to mention a wife who pulls in 6 figures. My wife costs money.
Re:Not again (Score:4, Interesting)
I use them. Way easier to keep a bunch in the ash tray to pay tolls with.
People would use them if they stopped printing dollar bills.
Re:Not again (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if anybody wants them or not, the solution is simple. Start making one dollar coins. Stop making one dollar bills. Very quickly, your entire economy has switched.
That's what happened in Canada. What, you think there wasn't resistance when we eliminated our one dollar bill or two dollar bill (which was far more commonly used than in the US)? Of course there was. And it didn't matter, because people didn't get a choice. The government decided they wanted to save money, so they did. It's not an election-level issue, so they could do that sort of thing.
The only reason that the dollar coin has not succeeded in the US is because the US government doesn't know how to do such transitions.
Re:Not again (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting rid of $1 bills isn't despotism, it's pragmatism.
Should the US start printing 25-cent bills? 10-cent bills? More choice is better, right?
At a certain point, you have to realize that having unlimited choices is just silly. A $1 coin functions just as well in an economy as a $1 bill (and lasts longer, thus costing society less). If you don't like increasing amounts of change, do what most Americans do and use credit or debit cards.
As a side effect, use cash, save those increasing piles of change and you can put hundreds of dollars into your savings account every year just by rolling it all up.
Re:Not again (Score:5, Insightful)
But this isn't one of those decisions. Removing the $1 bill saves the people money. It doesn't particularly help the government at all. So how is this despotism?
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Insightful)
When they got rid of the half-penny, the penny (the newly lowest denomination) was worth $.23 in today's money. There's nothing inherently specially about the $.01 value. If I had it my way I'd get rid of everything up to the dime and replace the dollar bill with a coin. But then, I think spending $.025 on making pennies, and $.11 on nickels is ridiculous. And wasting money on reprinting worn out $1 bills when coins would last much longer equally so.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Interesting)
100% agree...Kill the penny, kill the nickel, kill the quarter, kill the $1 and $5 bills.
The dime (the physically smallest coin) becomes the smallest denomination. 10 of'em to the dollar. If you absolutely have to, create a 50 cent piece that's a bit larger than the dime.
Build a dollar coin that DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A QUARTER, goddammit. Even the gold Sacajawea dollars, after a couple of years, tarnished to look like an older quarter. Build it with an external polygonal rim, or put a hole in the middle of it,. Maybe make it about the size of a penny, or nickel so coin holders in cars, etc., will hold the new dollar. .Build a 5 dollar coin if you must, just a bit larger.
In my world, that'd be two coins ($0.1 and $1.0). The numismatists (who single-handedly keep the penny alive) would probably require 4 ($0.1, $0.5, $1.0, $5.0). Then, three bills - $10, $20, $50. Despite my misgivings about losing a cash economy, the ease of counterfeiting (especially at the nation-state level) probably means that making higher denomination bills is a poor choice.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Funny)
I'd use $0.04, $0.08, $0.32, $0.64 and $1.00 coins. But I'd also have 128 cents to the dollar, for I like round numbers.
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You don't need to give change for such ludicrously small amounts of value. We used to price to the half cent, and the world didn't end when that was dropped.
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Informative)
What I want to know is why the US has quarters instead of 20c coins.
I'll bet it's because the US dollar was modeled after the Spanish dollar, which was in turn worth 8 "reals" (aka "bits"), and was introduced centuries before decimalization came into vogue. That's why a quarter is still sometimes called "two bits".
Re:Not yet... (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, this is complete crap.
I'm going to compare the USA 1,5,10,25,100 system against the very common 1,2,5,10,20,50,100 system (125 system, for short.)
By my calculation (done by hand, so may be a little out) to make all the quantities of change from 0 to 99, the USA system needs 470 coins, the 125 system needs 340 coins. The only quantities for which the USA system needs fewer coins are 25, 26, 35 and 36, for which it is one coin more efficient in each case.
If you took away the 2c coin to have 1,5,10,20,50 (i.e. a 20 and 50 instead of a 25 compared to the USA system) you'd still need only 420 coins (vs 470) for all change from 0 to 99c.
The 125 system works so well because the denominations are nearly equally spaced logarithmically. Starting with 1, you get the next denominations by multiplying by 2, 2.5, 2, 2, 2.5, 2. In the USA system, the multipliers are 5, 2, 2.5, 4. It is those large multipliers (5 and 4) which make the system so inefficient.
If you wanted to span the 1-100 range with just four coins, I believe 1, 3, 10, 30 would be optimal, as it is closest to logarithmic spacing. (Actually, 1,3,10,32 might be better, but that would be a real pain to make change with.) (Even more efficient would be a true logarithmic system: 1,2,4,8,16... or 1,3,9,27,81,... or 1,4,16,64,256... but none of these mesh well with our decimal system.)
On what evidence do you know "THE AMOUNTS MOST COMMONLY NEEDED"? Even accepting your unsupported claim "the very large majority of "change" needed is less than 50 cents", for each amount of change 0 to 49 cents, USA system needs 185 coins vs 145 for the 125 system, so you fail on this count too. If you remove the 2c from 125 and consider only change less than 50c (effectively removing the 50c from the 125 system as we'll never use it, so denominations are 1,5,10,20) then you *finally* get marginally ahead: 185 vs 190. Against this, the 125 system is about one coin better for every number from 50c to 99c, so your 'very large majority' will have to be greater than 90% to even get marginally ahead. (And remember, this is without the 2c, which the 125 system would normally have.)
Re:Not yet... (Score:5, Funny)
I like fifths ... Jack, Jim, Jose ...
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They must charge a smaller fee where you are. Up here, they gouge for 11.7%. I'll do my own rolling (with my handy-dandy motorized coin sorter) and keep my $30-40.
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Sure if you get cash from them, but the gift cards tend to give you the full amount (I assume that amazon pays the company running the machine - since now you have to spend that money with them). Since I'm going to buy something from amazon anyway...
pace (Score:3)
Re:pace (Score:5, Insightful)
We have a government where powerful politicians can openly claim that significant scientific theories are "lies from the pit of hell", and that came up with the TSA and Gitmo. They're inefficient and slow on purpose, do you really want these people to be able to take significant actions quickly and efficiently?
Inflation beware (Score:3, Interesting)
Here in Europe it is widespread belief that the fact that 1 and 2 euros are in coins are a reason for inflation. You think twice before spending a bill, while psychologically a coin is easier to part with.
It does happen quite often to have 10-20eur in coins so it's probably not all wrong.
Re:Inflation beware (Score:5, Insightful)
You have this backward. €1 and €2 are coins because of inflation, not the other way around. You shouldn't think twice about spending €1 on something because it isn't much money.
Re:Inflation beware (Score:4, Insightful)
That must be why the Swiss franc is so weak. They have 1, 2 and 5 franc coins and have for decades. Their smallest paper bill is a 10 franc note.
No, wait... the franc isn't weak. Guess that means these things don't correlate. :)
Re: (Score:3)
Irish, Maltese and Cypriot pounds were worth more than €1.
(Not sure about those currencies, but the British pound had £1 and £2 coins when the Euro was introduced, which were worth something like €1.60 and €3.20 at the time.)
Familiarity (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, they're saying we can save potentially billions of dollars, by simply changing our expectations and habits in a very slight and non-destructive fashion? Unless we can declare war on it as some kind of abstract ideological concept, nobody's going to go for that. This is America, dude, where we turn off the lights when we leave the bathroom to save the environment while we let petroleum producers dump thousands of tonnes of oil into the water because they half-assed the construction and bypassed most of the safety procedures. We come in peace, ignore the Predator drones.
The only sensible way to do this is to shove it down the average person's throat with them screaming bloody murder... only to find out a few years later that they actually like it better the new way. It's how things have always been done here. Don't ask me why, I don't know whether it's human nature, or there's something in the water that makes people this resistant to beneficial change, but will happily make useless changes to everything...
Man, I hate coins. Hate 'em. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's all there is to this comment. I throw away pennies. The only coins I save are quarters, and I only do that out of frustration. I don't carry a coin pouch. Seriously.
Re:Man, I hate coins. Hate 'em. (Score:4, Insightful)
You might feel differently if coins were worth something.
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Yeah, just wait until you have $1 and $2 coins in your pocket like we do in Canada. And at the end of the week, you dump out all the change and there's $50 worth.
Strike a zero, keep the dollar (Score:3, Interesting)
We should just strike a zero from the coins and keep the dollar. In other words, the pennies sitting in your piggy would immediately be worth $0.10. Paper money and the existing dollar coins would keep the same value, just multiply the value of all the other coins.
1. Really not that expensive compared to the national debt.
2. It would be a form of stimulus that goes to middle class people with jars full of coins, not fat cats. It would spark the kind of spending they want to stimulate, just in time for Christmas.
3. The mint would once again be making money minting pennies and nickles instead of losing it. In the long run it would pay for itself. As an added bonus, you don't need to change the minting process.
Came here looking for the Planet Money link (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/11/29/166103071/no-killing-the-dollar-bill-would-not-save-the-government-money [npr.org]
The short is: switching to dollar coins is both less convenient and more expensive than sticking with bills. It's surprising, given the much longer lifetime of coins, but unambiguous.
Re:Came here looking for the Planet Money link (Score:4, Interesting)
Although the main argument of the linked article on why it's more expensive, is that people tend to hold on to coins (put them in useless jars) rather than use them, so the government had to produce 1.6 dollar coins for each 1$ paper billed replaced.
In the linked PDF file [1], search for "1.6", you will find this sentence in the same paragraph:
"However, in both cases, once the transition was complete, coin
production was very low or even nil in some years. Therefore, we
determined that a 1.5-to-1 replacement rate would be appropriate for our analysisâ"low enough to avoid an excess of $1 coins without creating an undue risk of producing too few."
It was only a transition issue, there is no mention about people forgetting about those coins in jars. A 1$ coin is useful, it's what is usually given as a tip for a beer in a pub, so I find the argument that people put them in jars kind of odd..
[1]Âhttp://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11281.pdf
Value of $1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Now a $1 bill will get you a burger.
Where?
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Now a $1 bill will get you a burger.
Where?
Welcome to America: http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/food/meal_bundles/dollar_menu.html [mcdonalds.com]
Dollar coins already exist (Score:4, Insightful)
We've tried several. The big problem is that the Treasury won't simply ditch the dollar bill in favor of coins. They try to issue the coins along with dollar bills, so of course people treat the coins as collectibles instead of currency and they never catch on.
The right way to do it is to just do it: issue the coins and stop issuing dollar bills. Bills would still be in circulation and accepted, but no new $1 bills would be issued to banks. If a bank orders $1s, it'd receive them in coins. Any dollar bills received by the Federal Reserve banks or the Treasury would be destroyed, and any replacement would be done with coins. I figure within a year we'd be on coins completely, most dollar bills would've been returned as worn and destroyed and with no new bills being issued coins would become so prevalent that they wouldn't be collectibles anymore.
Sacajawea dollars in Ecuador (Score:5, Interesting)
For anyone wondering where all the Sacajawea dollars went to, they are mostly in Ecuador. Ecuador uses US dollars as the currency, and people there use dollar coins all the time. You can see some photos of dirty tarnished dollar coins that have obviously been used, which is unheard of in the US.
the USA will drop the Dollar Bill... (Score:3)
Re:Allowance (Score:5, Insightful)
With dollar coins?
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I give my daughter her allowance in dollar coins (the gold colored presidential series and sacageweas); she has absolutely no problem at all putting them into circulation...
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The idea isn't to eliminate the unit of currency, but replace the physical form with a more durable one. I fail to see how that changes anything in terms of you giving your children an allowance.
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Are the too sickly to handle the weight of a coin? Or just too stupid to understand what a coin is?
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RFID tags in their outfits, and when you go in you get given a "watch" wristband that will read the tag and credit that stripper's account. You prepay at the bar or on the door, and you charge your drinks to it too. If you go over, just top it up with the handy credit card machine that a hostess will bring to the table with your next round of drinks.
You can keep it anonymous, or you can register with the system for a discount on drinks and to make sure you always get a dance from your favourite girl.
This
Re: (Score:3)
You insert them in the slot.
Is this really that hard to figure out?
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Backing up a currency is a tragic waste of gold, which has substantial industrial uses but sadly is too expensive because of the irrational attachment that people have to it. Plus if a new source of very large amounts of gold were to be discovered, then it would endanger the economy.
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the smallest euro bill is 5€, the smallest bill here is worth ~10usd
Unless you try to buy electronics with it, then it's only worth like 3usd.
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I already don't carry around cash much. Even the vending machines in my office take cards (most evil thing ever.) Chances are I'd end up saving more when I did have cash on me as I'd toss 'em in the bucket I have of coins at home, grabbing a handful when I need them.
Not that I can withdraw 1s and 5s at the bank as it is. Minimum of $20 and a multiple of $20 from there.
Re: (Score:3)
Not that I can withdraw 1s and 5s at the bank as it is. Minimum of $20 and a multiple of $20 from there.
I can tell you for a fact that banks (and credit unions) have 1 and 5 dollar bills on hand, as well as a full range of coins. They have to, since very few people have accounts that are an integer multiple of $20 and they have to be able to allow you to take your money out.
Maybe you're complaining because the ATMs don't hold anything but $20 bills? That's not the only way to withdraw money from the bank. It's the cheapest way for the banks, and it's cheaper to make a machine that deals only with one kind o
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Why would you have a ton of them? You cycle through them. If you have some loonies or toonies, you pay for your coffee with that. If you don't, you break a bill, and get some coins, and pay for the coffee with coins the next time. Since most vending machine payments are with loonies or toonies, that also eats them up pretty fast.
Americans love coming up with reasons why the transition to coins is impractical, except most countries already did the transition and didn't have any of those problems.
Re: (Score:3)
You want to carry a stack of 1 and 5 dollar coins in your pocket? Or will it be in a sack tied to your belt?
Having gone to many trips through the countries of Europe, I can say that you typically don't have a stack of coins in your pocket. Now that your change is worth something, you spend it first and only go to paper afterwards, rather than just using your pocket as a dump for all your change which gets emptied out at the end of the day. If you do get an uncomfortable amount of change in your pocket, that is just a reminder to use it first the next time you buy something and the problem is resolved. Because you
Re: (Score:3)
Really, subject says it all. I sometimes get cash out of the ATM, just because I like to have some on hand. The great thing about cash is that if you end up in a bad position, anyone anywhere will accept it.
Well that's great and all but rather off topic. Cash for in case of a bad position comes in the form of a 20 or larger, not a stack of singles. And the topic at hand is dollar *coins* which are much better for privacy if you stop to think about it since unlke dollar bills, dollar coins don't even have serial numbers.
Re:Data? (Score:4, Insightful)
So that's $146,000,000/yr.
No, no. That's not the right way to look at it. It's 4 BILLION being saved. What? Yes, that's over THIRTY years, but so what? Doesn't "4 BILLION" sound so much better than "1 BILLION" or even just "146 MILLION"?
Now we have the latest style of inflation: the number of years a small savings is multiplied by to produce the sensational amount to be reported by the media. With the budget, it's typically been 10 years (so they won't say "this cut to spending will save just 100 million", they report savings of "1 billion". Now it's 30 years. We've automatically saved three times as much as before!