"Micro-Gig" Sites Undermining Workers Rights? 426
Mystakaphoros writes "An article in The Atlantic examines the effects sites like TaskRabbit, Fiverr, and Rev.com are having on employment and freelancing. (I would add Amazon's Mechanical Turk to the list as well.) As the article mentions, 'Work is being stripped down to the bone. It's as if we're eliminating the 'extraneous' parts of a worker's day — like lunch or bathroom breaks — and paying only for the minutes someone is actually in front of the computer or engaged in a task.' How many Slashdotters have used these sites, either to hire or work? What's been your experience?"
Click the monkey and win the iPad workers unite! (Score:5, Funny)
Solidarity brother
Union Yes
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Age old "issue" (Score:2, Interesting)
When I put my car in for servicing etc I pay for parts and labour, and when I have workmen in at home to do something it's again parts and labour, so where's the difference?
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Yep, it's just contract labor. If you're selling it, price your labor appropriately, taking into consideration that you are not getting benefits, etc. If you're buying it take into consideration that you're not getting loyalty, retaining experience and knowledge, etc.
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I've heard the golden rule is 3x your FTE hourly rate. You've got to take self-benefits, work expenses, and the cost of labor into account.
Some potential employers balk at this, how an individual can ask for oh say $150 an hour in IT, but those folks are just ignorant & greedy and by no means the standard.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:4, Interesting)
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And...incorporate yourself!!!! Do this for the protection, and the tax breaks.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Insightful)
You cannot watch the car repair guy do the work to see if he is goofing off or taking a dump. You cannot have a legal way of automating this either.
Oh, you are a computer programmer. Install this big-brother app as terms of your employment contract and THEN we'll pay you.
BTW: If the camera can't see your eyes while the keyboard is being used, you don't get paid.
1984 has arrived!
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's the funny part and a bit of consolidation:
Nobody skilled would ever take such a job, so it's a by morons for morons type thing.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:4, Insightful)
Functional market (Score:5, Insightful)
yeah, pretty much. that's how supply & demand works.
That assumes a functional market.
The IT labor market is dysfunctional.
But no one believes it because everyone employed is cocky.
I'm employed and therefore I qualify and everyone who isn't employed is a screwup.
The system works!
I don't care WHAT you do, this what will happen:
You will be at your job working on whatever your working on. You'll see new technology coming along and you'll think "Gee, I better learn it!"
In meantime, you're working your 55+ hours a week with the too frequent 80 hour weeks because your employer refuses to hire an entry level kid to do your grunt work.You're tired. You have to keep up with your job. Take a class? Hardly! Study on your own? Too tired. You NEED to get away from the computer sometime!
Then the system your working on becomes a "Legacy" system and your company farms out the work to Elbonia. They then tell you that you can keep your job if you move to Elbonia and take an Elbonian level of salary - a 75% pay cut.
You think, "I got skills! Fuck'em!" and you turn them down; which is exactly what they thought you'd do.
So you enter the labor market. And you see that your skills are "obsolete". You take classes but to no avail because the employers want a few years of experience
You say, "You'll learn! On your own time and dime!'
They tell you that they need someone 'to hit the ground running!'
So you go on. And on. And on....
Now folks start wondering why a skilled IT person who "knows computers" is out of work. They think what's his problem? Is he a drunk? Obviously, there's something wrong.
You may not hear it often, but you get that feeling based on the way people react and questions they ask you and their tone. Like:
"Have you been looking for work all this time?!"
With a tone of NFW! No one with skills should have to look for work in IT! Can't happen.
Out of work == No good.
And you notice that all the folks who are working steadily are a bit younger.
You're told, "Well, older people want more money!"
You try to retort - like shouting in a hurricane - No! I'll take market rates!
But you're still told that you don't have the skills - I don't care what skills you have, you WILL be told that.
Then folks start reading about how Google just has young faces, about the H1-Bs, and other dysfunctional things that happen in the IT field. Then they say, "Have you considered leaving the field?"
"yes. But, when I try, I'm asked, 'Why do you want to leave such a lucrative career?!'"
Please shoot me.
When I as at IBM, I saw all these "old" mainframers being moved into the OS/2 area, and being young and arrogant thinking, "The poor out of date bastards! That'll NEVER happen to me!"
And it did.
Until the IT labor market stops being so dysfunctional - and the blame rests squarely on the employers - I tell folks, if you can, go to medical school./
But that won't last either .....
Re:Functional market (Score:5, Interesting)
- Not an asshole (determined through about 20 minutes of conversation about personal life, history, etc.)
- Did not leave previous employer on bad terms (layoffs are fine. even if there were conflicts, it shows you are professional to not bash your old boss)
- Follows the developer community surrounding what they have experience in. An expert in Rails should know a bit about what is going on in the community with the release of Ruby 2.0, for example. A C# guy should have some opinions about the latest features in
- Must solve a few programming problems. Nothing Crazy. Things like "take this text file and print out all the word contained in it in order of frequency". I also tell them they are encouraged to use whatever language they are most comfortable with -- COBOL for all I care-- , they have unlimited time, don't have to get it 100% correct, and are encouraged to Google/ask me questions. 9/10 people still fail the damn things! These tests are merely to see if the person was completely lying about knowing how to code, not "write a recursive binary search using the observer pattern... in C".
TLDR: 1) have pulse 2) don't be an asshole 3) know basic procedural programming.... Those are pretty much the requirements to be a programmer at most places (not Google, or some tech startup. More like the local insurance company or bank, but hey, that should be fine if youre desperate). I do hear that IT is a tougher market right now, and I believe it, but on the development side it could not be easier. With your experience, you might want to consider a transition. Ex-sysops/network guys tend to make solid devs IME.
Re:Functional market (Score:5, Insightful)
I try to keep a quiver full of excruciatingly difficult questions which most people could not possibly know the correct answers to. I bust a couple of them out on each interview. I suppose this would disqualify me on your first criteria, heh heh heh. But I'm not looking for a correct answer when I do, I'm trying to make sure the candidate won't try to bullshit me when he doesn't know something. It also shows me if they're willing to think about a problem for a bit before giving up. I don't want bullshitters on my team, and I do want people who will at least try to solve a problem before giving up.
I'm not even really looking for an answer with the function I'm asking them about. I'm looking for how they handle it. If you get a question like this and try to just crap code onto a whiteboard, you're going to fail. If you actually design it the way they ostensibly taught you to in school, you'll do all right. Except most people never really learned that in school. They just procrastinated until the last minute, crapped a bunch of half-assed code into an editor and limped through on the basis that all their classmates did about the same thing. Truly master this one part of the interview and you'll be able to land any programming position you interview for. Even if you are an asshole.
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I try to keep a quiver full of excruciatingly difficult questions which most people could not possibly know the correct answers to. I bust a couple of them out on each interview. I suppose this would disqualify me on your first criteria, heh heh heh. But I'm not looking for a correct answer when I do, I'm trying to make sure the candidate won't try to bullshit me when he doesn't know something. It also shows me if they're willing to think about a problem for a bit before giving up. I don't want bullshitters on my team, and I do want people who will at least try to solve a problem before giving up.
I'm not even really looking for an answer with the function I'm asking them about. I'm looking for how they handle it. If you get a question like this and try to just crap code onto a whiteboard, you're going to fail. If you actually design it the way they ostensibly taught you to in school, you'll do all right. Except most people never really learned that in school. They just procrastinated until the last minute, crapped a bunch of half-assed code into an editor and limped through on the basis that all their classmates did about the same thing. Truly master this one part of the interview and you'll be able to land any programming position you interview for. Even if you are an asshole.
Unfortunately, like many interviewing methods, this doesn't test what you think it tests. It actually tests a candidate's ability to quickly produce low to moderate effort results under stress and to think out loud. It is a good skill to learn but mostly because it comes up a lot in interviews. Actual development is seldom done this way. Quiet contemplation and low stress collaborative banter is how problems usually get solved. Unfortunately, though effective, neither method prepares a candidate for
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When I moved to the East, I immediately started making like 12k more than I was in the West, and I now make 14k more than that. So, that's 26k (gross) more for basically doing nothing but change timezones. Joke's on me of course since 1099 contractors get taxed out the ass such that basically all my gross gains go right to the g-men. Hooray.
No, you made $26k more because you moved from being a w2 worker to a 1099 worker, not because you changed timezones. If you are saying that your take home pay is almost the same after gaining $26k in gross income, then most of that money is likely going to health insurance and extra payroll taxes. This means you actually took a pay cut when you took that initial job for $12k more.
If you were always a 1099, then you are just talking out of your ass about the taxes because only $2k of your $26k would be going
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Also word tends to get around when employers are breaking laws. I walked off a previous job because they weren't paying me correctly. I've never worked for an employer that made that many payroll and accounting "mistakes" and they would expect the employee to mention it or they wouldn't fix it.
These days, their reputation is basically dirt, everybody in the field knows that they skim funds from the employees and so they wind up with less talented employees, the ones that couldn't get work at the other firms
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but you can for a:
plumber
painter
electrician
furnace duct cleaner
maid
nanny
drywaller
etc.
Basically if you are going to someone else's private property to perform work, they can legally monitor your activities and pay you accordingly.
No, despite what your mom told you, you aren't special. It's just that latent feeling of entitlement that programmers get due to a lack of sunlight.
Welcome to the club.
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It's just that latent feeling of entitlement that programmers get due to a lack of sunlight.
It could be worse. Some people have a sense of entitlement just because they're United States citizens. Seems they actually believe that populist "We the People of the United States, in Order to ... promote the general Welfare" nonsense, and think the government should act on their behalf! Thankfully, serious and thoughtful people like you and I realize that government does not derive its "just powers from the consent of the governed" (which could lead to gross distortions from citizen's self-interest) but
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Informative)
you don't pay for the actual labor time
there are standards that say how much time it takes to complete a task in fixing a car. you pay by the number of hours in the book
In Georgia (Score:3)
In Georgia, I've seen a sign posted in both mechanics shops and computer repair shops that reads something to the effect...
Service Rates
To Fix your Machine $25/hr
If you want to watch me work $50/hr
If I have to talk to you while you watch $100/hr
If you want me to explain to you what I'm doing while I talk to you while I fix your machine. $200/hr
I've seen the same sign in Utah and California.
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The cost of non billiable hours are built into what you pay for parts and labor. Ever wonder why list prices for construction materials and auto parts are so high and the contractor and mechanics get discounts? It's to pay for overhead costs. If the people doing micro work have built this into their rates, than there is no difference. However, the nature of these sites makes it difficult to include that cost, so people accepting the work are enabling self exploitation.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Interesting)
The difference is that you expect to pay a mechanic or plumber $50 to $100 an hour... People on these sites expect to get code written for less than minimum wage.
I was on rent-a-coder for a while before they changed the name. And the expectations and offered pay were ridiculous.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what a directly competitive global market looks like my friend, when you have people with living expenses in double digit dollars competing with those who have triple digit expenses (at least), a disparity in acceptable wages begins to appear.
Of course a programmer worth their salt will have worked hard enough that they should perhaps be willing to accept no less than a certain minimum, but that is nonetheless a competitive advantage they have in developing countries - why would they compete fairly when they don't have to? Would it even be fair to cut themselves off at the feet like that?
There is no solution to this quandry. Just pick your battles and keep your customers, really, lots of businesses value security and reliability over low cost.
no solution you will like (Score:2)
There is a solution
income and expense parity, globally.
Everyone living at 2nd world levels.
(except a very small, very privileged minority of 'owners')
it ain't pretty.. but that IS what free trade will end at eventually,
with pain, bloodshed, revolts, and agony on the way....
the only way to maintain the first world experience will directly conflict free trade.
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An even better solution would be everyone living at first world levels but that's not going to happen for a half dozen generations minimum (~200 years), so in the meantime here we are. No protection is really possible here, you can't stop or really apply tarriffs to someone paying cash over the internet to someone else for perfectly legal services.
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>you can't stop or really apply tarriffs to someone paying cash over the internet to someone else for perfectly legal services.
Why not? It's perfectly possible to circumvent physical tarrifs on a small scale as well, but if you're a company doing a lot of business overseas that's going to show up in your books and you'd better be paying the appropriate taxes according to the relevant laws.
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That should sort itself out then.
The code will such and people will stop using the site.
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I thought it used to be decent, but it seems people have lowered the bar on there even more. I do think the site is a bunch of India coders spewing out spaghetti code though nowadays anyways. Nothing relevant or important ever passes through sites like that, and that's where the money's at. Not writing some asshat's chess program for him.
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You make it sound like people posting some sort of low-ball pay for a programming job is some personal insult and injury to you. But if there's nobody to take the job at the given price, the job doesn't get done, simple as that. Doesn't hurt you, doesn't hurt anybody else.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that generally the "labour" part of the equation is an inflated hourly rate in order to cover the down-time in between tasks. They also have minimums so that if it takes 10 minutes you still get billed for 30. And
Generally freelancers have become accustomed to properly accounting for this extra rate charge on every billable hour to fill in the gaps. When you're "working" for mechanical turk you're really no longer an employee you're a business owner. Not everyone is cut out to run a business and nor should they need to, specialization is important. However, with businesses looking to become more efficient they can start calling their janitor a "contractor" and make them pay all of the payroll taxes. Technically that's illegal unless the janitor is also responsible for buying his own mops, brooms and can set his own hours but companies have been pushing the edge of what's legal (and often crossing it) for some time. The goal is often to make as many people 'freelance' as is humanely possible to avoid paying benefits or taxes or comply with safety regulations since their "employees" aren't actually employed--they're separate private businesses working alongside them.
The easiest way to avoid worker's rights is to avoid making them legally an employee.
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The easiest way to avoid worker's rights is to avoid making them legally an employee.
By law a full time position must be staffed by an employee. By definition a contract worker must be employed for a specified duration. I know one company that has an h and a p in their initials that routinely lays off all its contract workers the week after Christmas and rehires them the next week to the same position and some of these contract workers have been in their roles for years.
LAW? (Score:2)
LAW? please provide a citation.
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And the problem is what? You are willing to do a job at some price, taking into account your skills and expenses, and someone else is willing to offer a certain amount of money to get the job done. Either you match up or you don't. If you don't match up, the job doesn't get done.
Re:Age old "issue" (Score:4, Insightful)
Take a look at the history of the garment industry and piece work.
As the internet tends to do, it disaggregates things – breaking things up into component pieces. Why does this matter? Workers become more fragmented. Thus, relatively speaking, this shifts power towards management, which is important when you try to negotiate your wage.
Also, companies tend to invest less in their works – such as training, pension plans, etc. Why bother when there is no longer expectation?
As for your example, you may or may be paying for “labor”. May places have rate sheets – Installing new breaks is X hours and the workmen are paid for X hours of work even if they don’t work X hours. If journey men take 2X hours – well – they are journey men. If a master mechanic can do it in .5 hours – well he is a master mechanic.
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In both cases they charge you for parts and your choice of labourer is somewhat limited by the fact that you can't really ship your car/washing machine to India for servicing. In the case of car repairs you tend not to stand around watching them to make sure they bill you precisely for each minute either, and it is customary to at least offer the washing machine guy a cup of coffee.
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No, you don't pay an actual hourly labor rate at a mechanic. You just don't realize how your bill is determined. For any given repair, the time is determined by an industry standard table. You are billed for the job and the parts, not the actual amount of time the labor took.
http://www.howtodothings.com/automotive/how-labor-charges-are-calculated [howtodothings.com]
My lunch/breaks are unpaid anyway (Score:2)
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This. And all that will happen is people will put their rates up to account for the difference in take home pay. It's ludicrous because the sites are wasting all their time micro-managing but will end up paying the same.
What about illegal immigrants (Score:2)
Re:What about illegal immigrants (Score:5, Insightful)
Because illegal labor isn't essential to the economy -- that's just hand-waving, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain bullshit. Well, the labor may well be essential, but not at that price. That whole situation is fucking criminal and should be treated as such, and using it as a basis of comparison is asinine at best.
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And for exposing the hypocrisy of the right. So what?
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The left?
I think you mean center right.
The left wants businesses that pay less than the minimum wage shutdown. If a company is found using illegal labor its doors should barred and forced to not function for some amount of time. Ideally for as many days as they used illegal labor.
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We have free flow of goods, and free flow of capital, but not free flow of labor. I can't easily move to Mexico to work, and Mexicans cannot easily move here to work. Thus, if you want to grow apples in the US with it's artificially high wages you will get stomped out of the market by the free-trade apples from China. Our solution thus far has been to exempt apple picking from minimum wage laws, while simultaneously kind of winking at immigration from Mexico and Latin America.
I tend to favor free trade, sin
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In a free country labor is by choice.
So is eating. What's your point?
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Whatever it takes to make him realize that feeding his children is _his_ problem.
Obviously anyone who complains that government policy has made it more difficult for him to earn a living is a whiner who should just suck it up, but if we throw trillions at irresponsible banks, or invade a country at the behest of Halliburton, it's a policy designed to improve the economy.
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If that means they have to be paid minimum wage and pay taxes I fail to see the problem.
The problem is not these folks working here, the problem is employers paying them below minimum wage and abusing them.
Freelancing and Micro-gigs (Score:5, Insightful)
On the micro-gig sites, remember that you'll be competing with people who can live quite comfortably on $5/day. If you can live on that, more power to you. Otherwise, you'll want to find other ways to peddle your services.
Re:Freelancing and Micro-gigs (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are not offering something that makes your service more than that than why should someone pay you more than that (that something might be the fact that you live closer to the person buying the service, or it might be that you have a better understanding of their requirements).
Because the added cost of living in a country that actually provides for the needs of the entire population raises the price of living.
...).
If we stopped paying unemployment, supporting the elderly, sick and disabled, as well as stopped paving roads, it'd be a lot cheaper to live because taxes would be much, much lower. You wouldn't have to worry about those pesky things that happen to other people, or are required only once in a while (like police services, fire services, building codes, etc
Price isn't entirely determined by the service. It's determined by the cost to provide the service, and comparing ACTUAL costs isn't as simple as putting two numbers side-by-side.
Re:Freelancing and Micro-gigs (Score:5, Insightful)
The classic example of this is what happened right after NAFTA passed...and then what happened a few years later. Right after NAFTA passed a bunch of companies relocated their production facilities to Mexico because they could pay workers in Mexico about 10% of what they needed to pay workers in the U.S. (even after calculating for additional transportation expenses) and still pay better than any other employers in that area of Mexico (thus getting the best of the available workers). A few years later many of those companies were moving their production facilities back to the U.S. because, for the work they needed done, Mexican workers were less than 10% as productive. This was not a universal experience. It only applied to certain industries. In other industries, Mexican workers were productive enough to be competitive (and in some industries they were productive enough that U.S. workers were NOT competitive).
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Because the added cost of living in a country that actually provides for the needs of the entire population raises the price of living.
While true, that isn't actually a reason, by itself, to pay more for the same good or service. Paying a particular vendor more than the asking price is a form of charity, and naturally all the standard personal reasons to be charitable apply. On the other hand, selecting a vendor because of their higher ("fairer") price is actually rather regressive, since you're allocating the work to the vendor less in need of the revenue. If you want to help equalize the standard of living, you should select the vendor w
Re:Freelancing and Micro-gigs (Score:4, Interesting)
Because the added cost of living in a country that actually provides for the needs of the entire population raises the price of living.
If you want to help equalize the standard of living, you should select the vendor whose current standard of living is lowest.
Sure, it's easy to make that argument when you start conflating similar ideas, like the standard of living and the actual needs of the population. By rewarding the vendors (countries, establishments, etc) who don't implement programs that care for the actual needs of the population (like safety laws, environmental protection laws), they're have less pressure to actually implement those programs, even if they have the resources. After all, change takes work, and if you're already being rewarded ...
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By rewarding the ... (countries, establishments, etc) who don't implement programs that care for the actual needs of the population ..., they're have less pressure to actually implement those programs, even if they have the resources.
Pressure for social change has to come from the inside to mean anything. Forcing changes on people who aren't asking for them, even "for their own good", is just another form of oppression.
As an agorist, I can certainly understand not wanting to reward a repressive government with tax revenues, however indirectly, but ultimately withholding your custom is going to hurt the vendor more than it hurts their government, and make them even more vulnerable to the regime, and less able to afford the "safety net" y
Game the System (Score:5, Insightful)
My wife did Mechanical Turk for a few weeks when out of work, and oh boy. The only way to make even minimum wage is to completely game the system. It is supposed to be self quality checking, but that doesn't really work. Her work (writing in this case) was so far above the norm (she did graduate college) that it was off the scales. The max she could make doing honest work was around $3-$4 per hour. Most workers there just spam the system trying to grab jobs that are we few cents more, cut and paste some garbage, rinse and repeat. In other words, you get what you pay for.
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I used to do MTurk back in college when it was still in testing and there were numerous scripts that optimized workflow. If the work kept coming in, I could've clocked upwards of 40$/hour. The problem was that were so many people doing it that you could rarely get in more than 5 minutes or so with every batch, with batches only posted every hour.
It's how contract work works! (Score:3, Interesting)
I make my living as a programmer for hire. Clients find me, ask for the moon, and I give it to them - but my hourly rate only reflects time on task. I don't charge my clients for trips to the water cooler. Unless I'm on site, I average about 6 hours a day. But this can be compensated by the fact you can adjust your own rates. For all the bitching about evil corporations, I'm surprised more people don't start their own S Corp and do this. It's a lot more responsibility, but you are the master of your own fate. (You are still responsible for your own fate when working for a business, but I suppose a lot of people don't see it that way) In fact, you may not even see corporations as all that evil when you're on the other end of the stick.
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Because I don't want to hunt for gigs. By working for someone else, they bring me work. They also do that boring accounting and payroll work. I get to do the stuff I love and enjoy without having to do the stuff I hate.
Re:It's how contract work works! (Score:5, Insightful)
I make my living as a programmer for hire. Clients find me, ask for the moon, and I give it to them - but my hourly rate only reflects time on task. I don't charge my clients for trips to the water cooler. Unless I'm on site, I average about 6 hours a day. But this can be compensated by the fact you can adjust your own rates. For all the bitching about evil corporations, I'm surprised more people don't start their own S Corp and do this. It's a lot more responsibility, but you are the master of your own fate. (You are still responsible for your own fate when working for a business, but I suppose a lot of people don't see it that way) In fact, you may not even see corporations as all that evil when you're on the other end of the stick.
Mostly it's the lack of health insurance. If we went to a single-payer system, I would be glad to go that route, but I can't risk my kids getting cancer while I'm off being my own boss and not able to afford the $3k/month family health insurance that can drop you for no reason.
Race to the bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we're at the point now where if a job can be digitized and sent elsewhere then it will end up being done by the lowest-overall-cost person (for a given level of quality) regardless of where they are in the world.
So the only long-term way to make a living is to ensure that you're working on something specialized (so there's less competition), or that you're at the top of the skill heap (so you can charge more), or you're working on something that can't easily be sent elsewhere.
We're already seeing the Canadian east coast becoming a popular place to locate call centres for North American businesses because they speak good English, the cultural variations are minimal from the rest of North America, and there are fewer timezone issue to worry about (as opposed to India or China).
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So the only long-term way to make a living is to ensure that you're working on something specialized (so there's less competition), or that you're at the top of the skill heap (so you can charge more), or you're working on something that can't easily be sent elsewhere.
I'd call that medium-term, or even short-term, not long-term. Long-term, standard of living and cost of living will equalize worldwide.
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Long-term, standard of living and cost of living will equalize worldwide.
And in the long run we're all dead.
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Day laborer equivalent... (Score:3)
of the tech business. If you're worried about being stiffed or not having benefits, just don't do it. Though this sounds way too annoying to be successful. The 5er stuff might be OK. I'd pay someone $5 for a drawing of a monkey slapping Justin Beiber.
Odesk (Score:2)
Many years ago I did a lot of work on ODesk, started out at about 5-10 dollars an hour, after about 2 months I was able to command $30 an hour easily based upon my high feedback and test scores. It was a pretty sweet gig. Not quite enough to support my family, but plenty as a side gig.
welcome to the real world (Score:2)
The idea that a salaried employee can have his employers (and optionally tax payers) by his balls and squeeze hard to get paid more is quaint, but doesn't apply in most of the real world. Most people in this world actually have to compete in order to make money. You know: bakers, electricians, computer consultants, personal trainers, hairdressers, etc. They work an hour, they get paid an hour. And if they don't work well, they lose customers.
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The idea that a salaried employee can have his employers (and optionally tax payers) by his balls and squeeze hard to get paid more is quaint, but doesn't apply in most of the real world. Most people in this world actually have to compete in order to make money. You know: bakers, electricians, computer consultants, personal trainers, hairdressers, etc. They work an hour, they get paid an hour. And if they don't work well, they lose customers.
Yes, but bakers at least get minimum wage. Not so with rent-a-coders.
Of course it is. (Score:2)
The rise of the micro-gig is very much a sign of the wider deterioration of working conditions. Rights are part of the issue, but the other is that the pay per hour is often pitiful.
This is another consequence of the neoliberal strategy of keeping a persistent pool of unemployed people. Don't believe government propaganda about wanting everyone in work; full employment in the US and other Western democracies has not been a policy goal since the late 70's.
Put very very simply, If there are two people for one
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The fallacy here... (Score:5, Interesting)
Workers rights exist to protect workers from abusive companies. But the case here doesn't even come close to rubbing up against that issue. The Gigers in these cases are able to work as much or as little as they please. No boss is standing behind them abusing them into performing more to justify management's salary or company profit margins.
Gigers will likely fall into two main groups:
A) Out of work and struggling to make ends meet.
This type is probably grateful for a way to make money in a world where there's currently no company to make him "a valuable asset and a productive member of society". No corporate overlord, no workers rights issues. If they dislike this type of work, they can continue seeking a job somewhere or they can learn to do without earning money for other people and keep making direct contacts for work.
B) People who do gigs on the side. Again, no right issues come up in this case. It's a totally voluntary way to make extra bucks.
I've used Fiverr to buy about 60 gigs now. In each case they were professional, quick and delivered exactly what they advertised. (in my case almost all were for artistic talent for personal and team building exercises). No company is offering me an equivalent service for less than an absurd amount of money which would have been a non-starter and caused me to engage in zero purchases. Their overhead for profit and management salaries is so high, they price themselves out of the market for what I need.
Instead of trying to demonize these companies, look at them as a means by which a lot of people are making ends meet while no company is willing to hire them. Life does not require anyone to work for a company. Sure they serve their purposes and for many scales and scopes of work, it takes a company to achieve success. I love the company that I work for. But I do not mistake that for believing that every person alive must either work for a company or earn nothing.
I'd rather look forward to a day when the gig market evolves and gig companies start offering discount benefit packages to Gigers who perform and produce well. What better way to hold onto good talent for your service.
What worker's rights? (Score:3, Insightful)
As we continue to empower the wealthiest at the expense of the least fortunate, we continue to step closer to delivering fascism for the people.
the ultimate "flat world" competition (Score:5, Insightful)
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Thanks for the info, Slashdot. If I can get an adequate salary working from home, I'm outta here.
You think you'll be surfing Slashdot less from your home office than your away office?
Re:being your own boss (Score:5, Informative)
Most states do require some breaks per 8 hours. They do not require they be paid though.
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That is the standard in the USA as well.
It is not however enforced at the federal level, and not all states even require it. The simple fact is in most place in the USA not doing that will impact your ability to retain workers.
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Well, if you are truly a contractor (1099 vs normal W2 employee), you negotiate your bill rate to cover you for your expenses (vacation time, sick time, insurance needs, etc).
There is a bit more paperwork involved and you have to be adult enough and responsible enough to document,
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This is why tax code needs reformed.
You made $100k, you should pay your taxes on all of that. Yes, that means SS and medicare too. Income that my employer paid me vs what you paid yourself then kept as profit should all be treated the same.
What risks? (Score:3)
Re:being your own boss (Score:4, Insightful)
I stand corrected,by your language and posts in the past, I assumed you were UK.
Well, to each his own, I don't see anything moral or ethical one way or the other using every legal means there is to keep as much money as I can that I make for myself. It isn't the govts money, it is mine. They didn't earn it, I did.
I didn't earn it for society either, I earned it for me.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy being charitable with both time and money. I prefer to have that 'choice' and not have the govt force me to do so.
But it is money, plain and simple, and I see nothing that involves ethics in any fashion with regards to how much I keep and how much I have to give to the govt.
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I'm not sure where your information is from, but, as far as breaks go, there's no federal legislation at all, it varies from province to province. Generally [workershelp.ca] you're entitled to a half-hour break every 5 hours, which must be paid if you're required to remain on site, but can otherwise be unpaid.
There's no special provision anywhere for law-enforcement (except that the RCMP are not allowed to strike. Farm workers, commercial fishers, oil field workers, loggers, home care givers, professionals, managers a
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If you do work in the Union Shop everything is followed by the letter. So you the worker will get in trouble if you take a 61 minute lunch vs a 60 minute. While in most union shops they are usually not so petty about the details. They could but they would be wasting money on enforcing every little thing.
Re:being your own boss (Score:5, Informative)
MOST STATES do not require breaks or lunch periods for employees. Or vacation, holiday, sick pay, insurance, minimum hours, max hours, etc...
Irrelevant, since these people are NOT employees. They are contractors. When I use Mechanical Turk to farm out work (and I often do) the Turkers set their own hours, they use their own equipment, they are free to work on other jobs, etc. Those criteria make them contractors, not employees. USA labor law is further irrelevant since very few of these people are based in the US. Most of the Turkers I have worked with are in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).
Re:being your own boss (Score:5, Insightful)
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A better solution: provide a basic income, and let each individual supplement it if ..
Why such half measures? A still better solution: provide infinite income! 20 Ferraris a week for everyone, with unlimited hookers and blow! Unlimited free health care, and no one has to work!
Or, you know, you could accept the reality that no one owes you anything, and you're going to have to work for your keep, or depend on charity (charity: what you get because the giver is generous, not because you deserve the gift).
Re:being your own boss (Score:4, Insightful)
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I don't think you're correct on the requirements either, however I just wanted to say that most employers whether required or not do this to stay competitive in the job market pool.
A slightly related example is health insurance, I've noticed that most places that have called me that DON'T have it are almost immediately up front about it as they've experienced the lack of health insurance to be an instant dis-qualifier for them as an employer to potential employees for whom that's important.
Re:being your own boss (Score:4, Informative)
Well, not necessarily. If you are a contractor, you negotiate your bill rate to cover your costs for insurance, vacation and sick time off...that's why bill rates are high for contractors, or at least on surface it appears they are making TONS more money that normal W2 employees.
But it can be a sweet deal. I have incorporated myself, and love it when I can do the 1099 corp to corp deal. I get a nice high deductible insurance policy, say $1200, and that qualfies me to set up a HSA (Health Savings Account) into which I sock the max pre-tax dollars I can (approx $3K a year?). Out of that, I pay my regular meds and maintenance trips to the dr, dentist..etc. I usually tell them I'm paying myself and they have often given me like a 15% discount right off the top.
Anyway, HSA, unlike FSA...are not use it or lose it..they grow and grow with you, and at retirement, if you have it all built up due to being healthy...you can convert it to retirement dollars.
Also, with contracting...you get to write off everything. And, if you look into it..set yourself up as a "S" corp, and you can save paying alot of SS and medicare (employent taxes).
When you go into contracting, you are the employer and employee, and you have to think of it that way when doing billing rates and paperwork, sure it is a bit extra work, but if you are good at what you do, it is one of the last ways in the US to actually keep more of your hard earned money from the tax man.
Although..the current administration is trying to chink away at that foundation too unfortunately.
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Re:being your own boss (Score:4, Insightful)
Holy crap... do you think we're all stupid? SEIU rakes in many millions in dues each year. How else could they contribute $18 million a year to political candidates?
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SEIU isn't the only union out there.
Better still (Score:3)
Not saying to give up, but we need to start moving this country left and not stop. Left is the opposite of corporatism. Like it or not someone is going to have massive power over our lives. It's going to happen. Po
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I used to be in the SEIU and no, it's janitors, security and nurses mostly. For the most part the ones in those jobs working for the government are usually under a different union. I know at my mother's college that the security fell under a state workers union. I can't recall which one off the top of my head.
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If you chose to be your own boss, then there's only one person to blame when your boss treats you poorly. You do work for customers on your terms at a rent-a-coder site, not forced labor for a slave driver.
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Dice(TM) is currently listing 84,210 jobs.
Re:Who's *FORCING* you to work for those sites? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't always post anonymously, but when I do, its because I'm talking about something wrong that I see go on everyday where I work.
Dice is listing thousands of jobs which are open to the "right person" but not to everyone with the listed qualifications. In many cases, the companies posting these positions reject everyone that applies for them in order to justify hiring someone who needs a visa. A lack of qualified candidates for all the "open positions" in my department is used as a management excuse to extend work hours out beyond 50.
A headhunter I used to get temp-to-hire work through once told me that in many cases ads were an attempt to entice specific individuals to leave their position with a competitor, or a signal to said individual that they should quit their position and begin waiting for their no-compete to run out.
Point being, there are lots of reasons to advertise a job opening in the technical fields that have nothing to do with a position actually being open to all qualified comers.
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What is your problem with poor people?
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