Trade Group: US Software Developer Wages Fell 2% Last Year 237
First time accepted submitter russotto points out the claim of industry group TechAmerican Foundation (reported by Computerworld) that "wages for the software industry are falling, not rising. Wages fell 2% to $99,000 in 2012." Averages are one thing; the article points out though that wages vary vastly within the industry, and that some jobs are harder to fill (thus, better paid) than others. An excerpt: "Victor Janulaitis, CEO of Janco Associates, a research firm that also analyzes IT wage and employment trends, cited a number of reason for the decline in wages for software professionals. First, technology is becoming easier to implement without having an IT professional, he said. Also, the option of turning to outsourcing creates less pressure to increase wages.
As the recession continues, companies continue 'to look at productivity and will often look to hire individuals who are lower cost employees,' said Janulaitis. That could include displaced baby boomer workers who have been out of work for some time and 'will take a lower paying job just to get back into the workforce.'"
Sad, but true (Score:2)
WORKER: I would like to discuss a raise to my salary
BOSS: No, you aren't getting a raise. Hell, you should be HAPPY to get what you are getting. I could get 10 guys from Infosys for what I am paying you!
Re:Sad, but true (Score:5, Insightful)
Worker was a fool for starting the conversation without an offer in hand.
Then next line should be:
WORKER: Hire those programmers, I quit. Best of luck to you.
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Re:Sad, but true (Score:4, Insightful)
Might work once, and not really all that well.
If you want a good raise you need to change jobs or be ready to.
Re:Sad, but true (Score:5, Informative)
No, you need to change jobs, period.
According to this site: http://www.westportone.com/candidate/counteroffer.htm [westportone.com] :
"According to national surveys of employees that accept counter-offers, 50-80 percent voluntarily leave their employer within six months of accepting the counter-offer because of unkept promises. The majority of the balance of employees that accept counter-offers involuntarily leave their current employers within twelve months of accepting the counter-offer (terminated, fired, laid off, etc.)."
So, basically, if you go to your boss with another offer in hand and accept a counteroffer, he or she is going to screw you over simply because they can. And that's how the big sharks swim in the deep end of the pool. If you want better working conditions and/or more money, change jobs. The only exception is if you work in academia, where you have the protections of tenure.
See also:
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/03/26/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer [usnews.com]
http://ask.slashdot.org/story/02/06/13/0615238/is-it-wrong-to-accept-an-employment-counter-offer [slashdot.org]
Re:Sad, but true (Score:4, Informative)
Your boss was always going to screw you over. His plan didn't change when he was forced to pay you more. They will play some sort of face saving game, give you a new title and claim they are paying you more for the additional responsibility. The end game for you is to take his job outright, then move on to greener pastures.
You certainly can't afford to relax. If you don't more or less have the employer by the short and curlies they wouldn't have counter offered. As long as that doesn't change, nothing has changed.
When you next go looking for a job, your current compensation will be higher and you will have a bigger war chest (unless you spend it all like a moron).
However, if after accepting a counteroffer, they start a new person as your 'understudy', they are already planning on firing you. Some companies are like that, others aren't. If your company is like that then you should truly _extort_ them while you've got them by the balls.
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If you don't more or less have the employer by the short and curlies they wouldn't have counter offered.
If you're a skilled employees, chances are you do have the employer "by the short and curlies", in a way: they have a schedule they're working towards, and if one employee up and leaves, that's going to screw up their schedule, and make the boss look bad. They don't have extra employees sitting around ready to take your place at a moment's notice (and most likely they're chronically "understaffed" anyway
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Works well right up until the economy takes a dive. Then you're not only the last man in (i.e. first man out), you're also so overpriced that nobody will touch you. Meanwhile, the 'chump' down the street who found himself a decent place to work and stayed there, pressing for better wages along the way, is the last guy out the door and is making a lot more than you are when you're standing in the unemployment line. I have a cousin who thought all the job hopping would be great and it was ... for a while. Sur
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Re:Sad, but true (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago, a coworker in another department accepted an offer from another company in town. He turned in his notice the next day. Lo and behold, they gave him a counter offer. Seems that they really did think his specialty was worth more than they were paying him and it was just the economy limiting what they could do. After a bit of negotiation, he accepted the counter offer and told the other company he wasn't coming to work for them.
Well, three years later he was complaining about how he wasn't getting a pay raise that year like the rest of us. Turns out he hadn't gotten a pay raise since accepting the counter offer. He'd gotten so upset with it that he'd started looking for another job. But guess what? He couldn't even get interviews - especially at the company that he'd turned down (I wonder why...) which had two job postings that looked exactly like his experience. Seems the word had gotten out around town that he couldn't be trusted and other companies were treating him like poison.
Having accepted then changed his mind, he didn't realize what the other company had put into the process. They had spent hours screening candidates, performing phone interviews, calling people in for personal interview, etc. And then when they had offered him a job that he'd accepted, they had needed to call up the other candidates (some of whom were just as qualified) and tell them "thanks, but no thanks, we have someone else". That had left the company in a lurch as well as hurting their reputation with the other people involved - of course they were upset. And the people involved can carry long memories even as they go to new companies, talk to their friends down the street, talk to recruiters, and so on.
I left there over 2 years ago and still keep in touch with some of my former coworkers. Last I heard, this guy was still complaining about no pay raises and no interviews.
Moral of the story: be careful not to burn any bridges, you might need to cross them someday.
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That guy probably needs to move to a different city. That's the only way to break that cycle.
But yes, this is a good illustration about why you should always avoid changing your mind after formally accepting an offer.
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Having accepted then changed his mind, he didn't realize what the other company had put into the process. They had spent hours screening candidates, performing phone interviews, calling people in for personal interview, etc. And then when they had offered him a job that he'd accepted, they had needed to call up the other candidates
If you're going to be seeking a counteroffer, don't lie and accept the offer, until you are finally able to commit to it.
You better inform the prospective employer of your a
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Or you could do something like this:
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The right answer is to ask for a raise as politely as possibly but with the clear message that the current rate isn't cutting it. Don't mention the offer.
If, predictably, they say 'F.U.' (or it's equivalent) then you simply quit and take the new job. The only reason they get any notice at all is to avoid burning the bridge.
Giving the bastards a chance to counter is an act of _loyalty_. Don't do it, they don't deserve it.
Don't even try to out weasel word a weasel. They know good and well that both you
Re:Sad, but true (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me add one thing that has actually worked for me. Before going to 'ask' for a raise mention to the office snitch that you have a better offer. Only works if the office snitch isn't generally known.
That way they think they are outsmarting you by paying you more.
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Don't know what to tell you except to say that I don't view my manager as a "bastard", nor do I think those two statements of mine would be received identically.
That makes sense... it's not your manager's job to be "the bastard"; its to manage appropriately.
Now your manager's manager may order your manager to do something that is adverse to you; regardless of how nicely you have handled the situation with your manager.
Your manager might not be able to approve the raise, without in essence the cou
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There might be individuals who aren't bastards. But when they are in a group they are 'the bastards'.
A group of Crows is called a murder, a group of managers is called 'the bastards'. It's just a definition thing.
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I had one coworker who kept doing it over and over. Kept getting raises. Of course, he was willing to go somewhere else if he needed to, as you mention.
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That's more or less what I said. 'Best of luck to you' is the polite way of saying that (less the Jew hate).
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... being a racist and an asshole.
I think most people would consider the "and an asshole" there to be redundant.
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Anyway, more on topic, I hear there is a shortage of talent in the Bay Area. Although...since there are only so many LGBT software engineers who are good, software engineers who are good but who don't understand cost-of-livi
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Sounds like someone can't get a date.
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California east of the coast range is a more or less normal place and retains access to tech centers in the south bay. West of the coast range is pure granola (fruits, nuts and flakes).
Granting the state is run by and for LA and SF.
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I have an hypothesis:
# of libertarian slashdot posters = k / (average software developer salary)
where k is some real number.
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And in other news... (Score:3)
CEO wages only went up 3.6%.
Of course their wage base is slightly higher than us mere mortals.
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And that's what's wrong with the USA today. Working simply doesn't pay anymore. Not working and having others work for you does.
In earlier days, we called them spongers and leeches, but in today's world where everyone needs a title, it's CEO.
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Of course their wage base is slightly higher than us mere mortals.
$99,000 makes the developer a demi-god.
US Household Income
According to the Census ACS survey, the median household income for the United States was $50,502 in 2011, the latest data available.
US Per Capita Income
The ACS 1-year shows the per capita income in the United States was $26,708 in 2011, the latest year available.
Income US [deptofnumbers.com]
gotta love rich people whining (Score:2)
fuck, what the hell, do they have to cut down from three cars to two?
Re:And in other news... (Score:4, Insightful)
$99,000 makes the developer a demi-god.
I'm not sure what kind of methods used to calculate this 99,000 number comes from anyways. Maybe stock grants for developers involved in startups? Or maybe it's a geographic thing.
I've been professional in this field for 6 years; I have a bachelor of science in CS, 8 programming languages, and I don't see nearly half of that.
Admittedly i'm the only developer in my organization, and I get hit with system engineering tasks and working with IT technicians as well, to provide them the help they need to understand what actions they need to be taking.
But I think the 99,000 number is a fiction.
Compensation probably varies from company to company... so where appreciation from stock option grants is considered in some companies 99,000 may be Demo-God status... in other companies 99,000 might be feh...
Companies are unlikely to pay programmers more than their CEO though; furthermore, pay decreases down the chain of managers, and the more managers there are above the developer.... probably, the more people there are that the programmers' definitely won't get paid more than.
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Depends entirely on the area. For instance, Mississippi's median household income is a whopping $37,000 while in Maryland it's $70,000. Dig deeper and you find that within those areas there exist hot and cool spots with drastically different numbers.
Put that developer making $99,000 in certain counties of Northern VA, Boston, NYC, SF, etc and he'll be scraping by in a medium size condo or small townhouse. Put him in the middle of Mississippi and he can comfortably afford this 5,000 sq ft 6 bed, 5 bath house
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"Of course, the colleges have been turning out software drones by the thousands"
lol. That's like saying that Van Gogh was a "paint and canvas drone". Remember, just because an institution teaches a skill, the skill can be applied creatively or not.
Most "high tech" software I see these days is unimaginative and based on pointless corporate executive drone direction (ITIL, ...) It's written often in India by people with low creative angst and inability to tell their supervisors that they are full of shit.
Some
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
So we're told. Yet, the distribution of good and bad managers is almost exactly the same as good and bad line workers.
Share value increases most when jobs are cut. Any idiot can cut salaries and jobs to get a quarterly bump in share price. The success of US corporations has more to do with corporate consolidation increasing pricing power than it does brilliant management.
We have a system where management success means the failure of everyone else who works for the company. Instead of an economy that is based on widespread prosperity, we have one based on prosperity for a very small group who succeed in a system whose rules they set, and misery for everyone else.
We actually have some historical experience with these situations, and it never, ever ends well for elite.
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Share value increases most when jobs are cut. Any idiot can cut salaries and jobs to get a quarterly bump in share price. The success of US corporations has more to do with corporate consolidation increasing pricing power than it does brilliant management.
Share value increases when jobs are cut, and the resulting decrease in costs is more than the resulting decrease in revenue and future revenue prospects.
The ultimate corporation(TM) is one that has sky-high revenue expected to be repeated and incr
Still Short-sighted (Score:4, Interesting)
From my own personal experience, you get what you pay for. Yes, you can overpay, but that is true for any employee. A few good programmers will outperform 100 mediocre "code-monkeys", and that holds true even if there are 1 or 2 good leads / architects. Why? Because a good design doesn't overcome bad code. I'll also note that there are some companies that just fill seats. The jobs here are not the kind that appeal to good programmers, unless they just want to pull a paycheck while working on something they care about. There are lots of these jobs, and most holding them are overpaid.
I personally know of several where the "programmers' don't know how to even configure their own tools, nor build their software locally (this would be on both .NET and Java platforms btw, and multiple cases for both). Sadly, these "engineers" are paid near the average, and barely can converse about basic language concepts. They've been employed for years, in some cases a decade or more, at a single company. These are the type of folks that make outsourcing seem viable, because you'll get about the same quality of people there, and sometimes, if you're lucky, better. It doesn't mean you'll succeed with either set.
Ah the myth of amazing software tech (Score:3, Interesting)
Good enough is always good enough. Yeah, you're few good programmers will make better code, but my 100 code monkeys will make more of it. I'll have 10 products to market in the time you have 1, and I'll do it for less $. I'll take those savings and spend them winning bids in backroom deals. Eventually I'll buy up your company just to shut it down. Well, not unless Microsoft beats me to it.
Also, What's with this thing in Ameri
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You've never managed a software project. It's painfully obvious based on the claims you make.
Um.. I have actually (Score:2)
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Do you have staff? It sounds to me like you've never worked with air thieves? One 'bad one' can wreck a project schedule. A staff of only 'bad ones' will result in no useful work. You won't get 1 project that succeeds and you will go crazy trying to manage the morons and the projects they work on.
I've seen people trying to build SQL statements ending up with string concatenation operators in the the SQL and not understanding. He tried to say the database server was broken. Assigning him any work was insa
The US Senate does good work (Score:2)
Re:Um.. I have actually (Score:4, Funny)
I can afford 10, maybe 20 failures for the 1 project that succeeds
yeah, but not everyone can work for Google.
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Really depends on what software you are writing. If it is a vertical app that a company relies on and you screw it up then it could cost you a lot in both reputation and lawsuits. If you create a suite of products where each is dependent on the other (e.g. CAD/CAM/CNC) one bad one can scupper the others.
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or, "if you're so smart, why do you work here?"
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Agreed. For more than one reason, and from personal experience. I've had both, a crew of code monkeys and a small but incredibly efficient team of well paid but also very good programmers. To say that the latter were vastly outperforming the former (for less money in total, too) is an understatement.
Two people doing each 50% of work will not compensate for one person who could do 100%. Simply due to a lack of information. One person has, by design, all the information that person has. This is not true for t
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C# Decimal type?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.decimal(v=vs.80).aspx [microsoft.com]
That said I believe the guptas wouldn't bother or understand.
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Apparently that is the C# decimal datatype class. .NET world - make a complicated class and use it where you'd normally use a primitive type and don't worry about speed or memory usage.
And it is 1/27th the speed of a double, this kind of thing is pretty normal in the
But then, us old timers wouldn't bother with such a way of doing things where performance is necessary (I'd except every time when using a decimal class), no we'd do something like this [stackoverflow.com]. 27 times slower... progress :-(
Clear evidence that there's a shortage (Score:2)
Zuckerberg and fellow tech billionaires: This is clear evidence that there's a shortage of people with the right skills, so the government needs to increase the H-1B visa quota from 65,000 to 180,000.
Politician with extended hand: Yes, sir! Are there any other orifices you'd like me to lick, sir!
Me: I have no idea how anybody will justify the first statement above and keep a straight face, but apparently there are people who are much better at it than me. Having read Zuckerberg's op-ed in WaPo, it's obv
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Zuckerberg and fellow tech billionaires: This is clear evidence that there's a shortage of people with the right skills ...
"... at the price we're willing to pay ..."
That's how. "We have shareholders, damnit! Have you seen what our stock is trading at?!?"
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The math works, and often these numbers are more a trend of waves of new hires, rather than any one particular person expecting a pay cut.
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The math works
Not here. According to the sound bite statistics that are available without paying $175, the size of the workforce increased by 1.1% while wages fell 2%. Admittedly the source and exact definition of these stats is unclear, but frankly I wouldn't bet on your explanation.
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The math works
Not here.
You say that, but you only attack the logic, not the math.
According to the sound bite statistics that are available without paying $175, the size of the workforce increased by 1.1% while wages fell 2%.
So, there were 1000 developers, paid $100,000 each. 40 new developers started within the last year, and 29 retired. If wages for the 971 remaining developers remained flat, then the new developers started at $22,500 per year.
Yes, I realize it isn't exactly realistic, but the math itself will balance without a single software developer taking a pay cut. Also, reality would likely have a larger turnover and more new guys, which would bring up the
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The answer is obvious (Score:2)
More H1B visas. Only then can we increase productivity and innovation which will keep profitability and CEO salaries high.
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Speaking as a soon to be H1B... I'm raising your average, stop whining.
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How do you know what my average is? Average what? Weight? Height? Days collecting unemployment?
Great! (Score:2)
'That could include displaced baby boomer workers who have been out of work for some time and will take a lower paying job just to get back into the workforce.'
I look forward to all the offers.
Original study (Score:5, Informative)
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Last time I checked, California was only 1 of 50 states. While the most populous state, 88% of Americans live elsewhere. Admittedly it does have a disproportionately high number of "high tech" workers. However, if the higher employee compensation that results from state or local (e.g. Silicon Valley) demand for such people (and the high cost of living in such areas) is a problem, then businesses are free to locate elsewhere in the country, or at least open branch facilities there.
Bottom line: what's you p
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If you are wondering why I said that 20% of tech workers live in California, I said that because it's in the study. Maybe the study is wrong, I don't know.
If you are thinking somehow you are not good enough to move Silicon Valley and get a job, I can tell you that there are plenty of lousy programmers in Silicon Valley making more than $100k. The skill you need to improve is your job search skills.
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I can get someone to work for less than half in Fargo and in Texas.
Cheaper, yes. Half? No. BTW North Dakota is in the midst of an oil boom.
Old timers will tell you Silicon Valley started because it was dirt cheap land, wages, lower taxes, than the more popular New York City and New Jersey of IBM, GE, and Bell Labs of the 1960s high tech hub.
How far back are you going? I can tell you that at least as far back as the 70's SV was expensive, and I doubt it was ever that cheap, at least not after the gold rush.
BTW, NYC proper was never much of a tech hub, at least not post-WWII. It was Northern NJ, Long Island, and the northern suburbs of NYC and a little further (largely IBM up there).
I do get a laugh out of people debating why SV is where it is. Success has a thousand fat
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It was cheap farmland which was a fraction of the cost of nearbye San Francisco and New York/New Jersey.
Back in the 50's and 60's there was still plenty of farmland waiting to be turned into suburban housing and office tracts in NJ, Long Island, Rockland County (just north of NYC - not sure if Westchester was still cheap), etc., not to mention many other areas of the country, so I don't really buy the "cheap farmland" as an explanation, other than to explain why it's not in an expensive city.
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Here's a link to the original study [techameric...dation.org]. It's not clear where they are getting the "wages fell 2%" statistic, but in California, the average annual wage was $123,900.
Wherever you are living, if you are pulling a 6 figure income, you should be living happily ever after. Otherwise, I posit the question, "If you are rich, why aren't you smart?"
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Wherever you are living, if you are pulling a 6 figure income, you should be living happily ever after.
Except for the fact that you still have to wake up five days a week and go to work for someone else.......
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Yeah. There is that. I forgot about that aspect. I forgot how depressing it can be having most of the fruits of your labors going toward the enrichment of a boss or exec or some other higher up. I may not be getting "rich" doing what I do (haunting thrift stores, yard sales, and public auctions for a wide variety of things to resell on the 'bay and other sites), but I make enough to pay my bills and other living expenses, and stash away a bit each month for a rainy day.
It is well worth it to me to be ab
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The average wage in the UK is a lot lower and falling. The government is trying really, really hard to drive down wages at the moment. Businesses simply want to pay their staff less, and the government supports businesses. They call it "removing red tape" and "making it easier for businesses to employ people", which translated means "removing employee rights" and "making it easier for businesses to fire people or give them short term rolling contracts instead of a real job".
Boomers get jobs? When pigs fly. (Score:3)
lower cost employees ... could include displaced baby boomer workers who have been out of work for some time and 'will take a lower paying job just to get back into the workforce.'
Maybe when pigs fly. If you've been out of work for some time or are old enough to be a boomer, you'll have a hard time getting a job. Put 'em together and you're probably toast. Hiring boomers who've been out of work for a while at lower pay would be a rational and probably a desirable response (not the lower pay part, but in a market economy that's how it works). In reality employers are horribly prejudiced against such people and will just scream that we need more H-1B's.
Re:Boomers get jobs? When pigs fly. (Score:5, Interesting)
lower cost employees ... could include displaced baby boomer workers who have been out of work for some time and 'will take a lower paying job just to get back into the workforce.'
Maybe when pigs fly. If you've been out of work for some time or are old enough to be a boomer, you'll have a hard time getting a job. Put 'em together and you're probably toast. Hiring boomers who've been out of work for a while at lower pay would be a rational and probably a desirable response (not the lower pay part, but in a market economy that's how it works). In reality employers are horribly prejudiced against such people and will just scream that we need more H-1B's.
Re:Boomers get jobs? When pigs fly. (Score:5, Interesting)
Because the attitudes are:
1. "you wouldn't be unemployed if you were any good." 2 ."If you got the skills then you can get a job." What if you do have the skills but have been out of work? Then back to #1.
It is very telling how employers who claim that they can't find "qualified" people never state exactly what qualifications they are looking for. They just make vague statements about "not having skills". That's the same as saying as giving a product review and just saying "it sucks".
Aren't prejudices wonderful? My favorite examples of how a tight labor market can force employers to overlook their prejudices are the World Wars. In WWI factories started hiring black people, and in WWII they added women. Neither group could get the time of day before that, and as you may have heard, they did just fine providing labor for the Arsenal of Democracy (historical note: we won both wars).
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For a lot of WWII the Feds (mostly) had to fight to get some employers and other unions to let in female and black workers.
You're right - I forgot about those cases. It was probably easier when the feds could tell anyone who wouldn't hire 'em that they were impeding the war effort.
Re:Boomers get jobs? When pigs fly. (Score:5, Funny)
It is very telling how employers who claim that they can't find "qualified" people never state exactly what qualifications they are looking for. They just make vague statements about "not having skills".
"To qualify in the US, you must have a minimum of 10 years' experience with Windows Server 2008, 30 years of experience with Windows as a whole; You must know C, C++, C#, Java, PHP, ASP, .NET, JavaScript, Python, Perl, ASM, Objective C, HTML, CSS, and at least five other languages of your choice, all at a guru level and never -ever- need to use any reference material; You must be able to code a full working 100,000 lines of code with no bugs within 40 work hours; You must be able to QA test the whole thing in another 40 work hours; You must be able to take every single feature request coming from marketing and implement it within that week of coding - even the features that are requested the day after the week ends; You must have a doctorate in Computer Sciences; And you must be willing to work for no more than $41K/year."
The recession continues (Score:2)
As the recession continues, ...
By what definition is the recession continuing? While, the job market has not recovered, I do believe we have been experiencing economic growth.
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By what definition is the recession continuing? While, the job market has not recovered, I do believe we have been experiencing economic growth.
We're operating on borrowed time with this many unemployed.
It's narrative (Score:2)
The only thing we're 100% sure of is that somewhere is a minimum wage welfare queen that's the reason why we're broke all the time. Buddy of mine put it best after he was down on his luck and tried to get some help from the gov't: "If it's s
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Congratulations, and welcome to The Revolution of Lowered Expectations [rawilsonfans.com].
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I did Google, as you suggested, and that number is nearly 1 in 7. So you're not too far off.
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By what definition is the recession continuing? While, the job market has not recovered, I do believe we have been experiencing economic growth.
By the technical definition of recession (IIRC two or more quarters of decreasing GDP) we haven't been in a recession in quite some time. But the colloquial definition is "the economy sucks". That would include a weak job market.
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the recession ended six months into Obama's first term, at which time, conservative denial began
Misleading title (Score:2)
The article states outright that the category includes "computer facilities management" and "other computer related services" and mentions "IT wage and employment trends." Including so many tangentially related positions makes it hard to draw any conclusions about software development trends.
Good timing (Score:3)
umm...yeah (Score:2)
The U.S. economy hasn't been in a state of recession since June 2009.
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bullshit, recession lasted at least into 2012
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2011/10/08/the-2008-recession-never-ended/ [forbes.com]
even now the real unemployment rate is over 22% by the traditional measure abandoned during clinton years http://shadowstats.gov/ [shadowstats.gov]
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The article you linked to is what is bullshit.
The recession ended in 2009.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/20/AR2010092006355.html [washingtonpost.com]
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I don't doubt it (Score:2)
I don't doubt it's true. Over the last 5 years or so, I've seen the purchasing power of my wages steadily eroding, even with a salary increase in every year except this one. The excuse given this year was "you are too close to the top of your salary range" - yep, the salary range that was established in 2002, and not adjusted for inflation, or for any other reason. In the four years prior, the maximum increase was a little more than 2%, which was quickly consumed (and then some) by increases in the emplo
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by "the top of your salary range" did they actually mean the middle? I get that every year.
I'm "deeply penetrated". Seriously.
Technology becoming easier to implement? (Score:3)
Such analysis dreamed up by delusional management everywhere, how to get rid of their own IT staff and since they don't understand IT, it must be easy !
Obviously we need more H1-Bs then (Score:2)
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Read the post immediately above yours. He's talking about you.
Re:Time for a union/guild? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's nonsense. What the union negotiates for depends on what the union members vote for, so you don't have to put things like "can't promote people to management" into the contract if you don't want it.
A example of the kinds of things a union could organize for programmers if one existed:
- Limits on and payment for overtime, after-hours and weekend work.
- Office conditions. Usually that isn't an issue, but if it is and your choices are "deal with it" or "quit", you may want a third option.
- Hiring standards that prevent a true idiot from ever working at the company.
- And yes, minimum pay agreements.
also a real apprenticeship system with mixed class (Score:3)
also a real apprenticeship system with mixed classroom / on the job training can come from a union and or guild system.
and a union hall hiring system can help to cut out at least some of the recruiter BS.
Re:Time for a union/guild? (Score:4, Informative)
I am a programmer, and I work in a union. It's actually quite nice, and it floors me that so many people have convinced themselves it's a bad thing. Here's what we get.
1) Overtime pay. It's not as good as regular overtime pay, but it is greater than your base hourly rate, and it does discourage your employer from working you overtime unless they honestly need it. I have currently negotiated with my manager a base schedule of only 35 hours a week; not common but I have known several people working similar schedules.
2) Scheduled annual pay raises. Not huge raises, usually in the ballpark of 2%-7%, but very respectable raises and everyone in the union gets them.
3) Protections with regard to leave. E.g. things like parental leave and other leave of absences.
4) Above average health insurance. My wife works for the state, and my insurance is better than hers. Take that for what you want.
What we don't get. Our offices generally suck. This is probably more an issue of this being an older company with older office buildings, rather than having anything to do with the union. The union could negotiate working conditions, but as our union is spread out among a great number of building sites, it's not a uniform concern. Also, the union doesn't negotiate for hiring standards.
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I prefer to be able to set my own schedule, work from home when that is a reasonable choice and otherwise be marginally attached via email 24/7 to keep up on things. I like spending 25-30 hours/week in the office, I suspect a union would really fuck that up.
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I have a girlfriend. What do I need a pleasure robot for?
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for her
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it's taking all our cron jobs!