Bradley Manning Wants To Live As a Woman 784
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Reuters reports that Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced to 35 years in military prison for the biggest breach of classified documents in the nation's history, says he is female and wants to live as a woman named Chelsea. 'As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning, I am a female,' Manning, 25, said in the statement read by anchorwoman Savannah Guthrie on NBC News' "Today" show. 'Given the way that I feel and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible,' Manning said. 'I also request that starting today you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun.' A psychiatrist, Navy Reserve Captain David Moulton, testified during Manning's trial that Manning suffered from gender dysphoria, or wanting to be the opposite sex, as well as narcissism and obsessive-compulsive disorder."
Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes. So as to avoid cruel and unusual punishment at a constitutional level, prisons have to provide adequate health care. Hell, it's worth it, you can get free chemo therapy, heart surgery, etc. Just recently, a judge struck down a law in Wisconsin that prohibited hormone therapy for inmates because it was unconstitutional.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/89751122.html [todaystmj4.com]
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Interesting)
Hell, it's worth it, you can get free chemo therapy, heart surgery, etc
So, if I'm uninsured and facing major narrowing of the arteries, I can go smoke a joint in a police station and get free heart surgery?
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. If they let you go with a warning for smoking the joint, punch one of them.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
In many cases, yes you can. There are probably rules around it, so something like a 90 day for possession isn't going to get you heart surgery, but if you were in for 35 years, you'd certainly get heart surgery. There are definitely people who try to get themselves thrown in jail for free medical care and food. Usually those are people who have already been there before and know the system, but it does happen.
As for hormone therapy, I could have sworn I've heard of people getting that in jail before as well. Gender dysphoria is considered a legitimate psychological condition generally, so he'd have a case, but I don't know if it is life threatening or meets the usual criteria.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
It happens. [theatlantic.com]
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Interesting)
So, if I'm uninsured and facing major narrowing of the arteries, I can go smoke a joint in a police station and get free heart surgery?
Yes. Somebody did that, Not smoking a joint, but a totally and obviously incompetent armed bank robbery. Go to bank with unloaded gun, hand over "give me the money" note, then drop the gun and surrender. He reckoned that he would have more life after getting out with his medical conditions treated than staying out and dying soon, and uncomfortably, from untreated conditions.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a bit mystified as to why we do this. Hear me out:
When people ask to have limbs amputated because the person feels that having the limb doesn't make them feel whole (strange how you don't feel whole until part of you is removed?! That and/or because they have a sexual fetish for amputated limbs,) modern medicine denies that request, considers it to be abhorrent, and any medical professional who obliges the request is jailed and/or has their license to practice revoked. The treatment for the above condition is the same as if the person had a mental illness, and the solution is to change thinking patterns rather than surgery.
http://drmarkgriffiths.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whats-your-crutch-the-bizarre-world-of-amputee-fetishes/ [wordpress.com]
Yet when they ask to have their genitals mutilated and hormones thrown so far out of whack to the point of permanently handicapping them to a degree, it is viewed as a human right, and in some cases this voluntary surgery must be provided for free by the government, and they are called brave in some circles? Worse is that today there is very little in the way of counseling done, and some half of them end up regretting it after the fact.
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Want-To-Reverse-Sex-Reassignment-Surgery/1608417 [experienceproject.com]
I'm not taking issue with transsexualism BTW, I'm taking issue with the idea that surgery is the answer.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
Yet when they ask to have their genitals mutilated and hormones thrown so far out of whack to the point of permanently handicapping them to a degree, it is viewed as a human right
So delicious.
Because she (Manning) was presumably born in the USA, her genitals were likely already mutilated at birth. Secondly, the organ between your ears also has gender just the same as the organ between your legs. The process of HRT brings one's hormone levels in line with normal female levels, so I don't understand why you think anything is going "out of whack."
I used to experience very painful headaches on a weekly basis before I started estrogen HRT. Apparently, that's not an uncommon experience. There's definitely something going on, although research is admittedly lacking (there was a study I can't seem to find again that was able to use MRI to determine brain sex in 75% of individuals in the study).
Worse is that today there is very little in the way of counseling done, and some half of them end up regretting it after the fact.
Sorry, a link to Experience Project isn't evidence, and there have been many flawed, biased studies on the subject to boot, sort of like the studies that back up the practice of routine infant male genital mutilation in the USA.
I'm not taking issue with transsexualism BTW, I'm taking issue with the idea that surgery is the answer.
Yes, you are, because not all trans women undergo bottom surgery. Bottom surgery is a personal choice and not a requirement to live as a woman or get an ID as a woman, although it may be a requirement in certain states in order to amend or change one's birth certificate.
If you're really as rational as you're trying to present yourself as being, I'd recommend the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serano.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
So mutilated is the word now. I'll remember to use that next time I ask a doctor to stitch a wound closed and he trims away some skin.
Infant circumcision is the deliberate wounding and sexual maiming of a child that removes 1/3 to 1/2 of the penile skin. The foreskin of an adult male is approximately FIFTEEN square inches of erogenous tissue which serves numerous functions throughout a man's lifetime. Not only does cutting up the genitals of healthy individuals without their consent violate human rights, it violates medical ethics to force unnecessary and damaging surgery upon healthy patients.
But yes, forced genital cutting (whether the victim is male, female, or intersex) is a form of mutilation. Only someone brainwashed into thinking that cutting up the genitals of healthy children is perfectly normal would claim otherwise.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Gender is not binary. It isn't controlled or defined by a single physical attribute either. Just look at the difficulty sporting organizations have deciding on a person's gender. Hormones, physical attributes, chromosomes - individually none of them are definitive.
In some cases people are born with a feminine mind but masculine body. In theory it could be corrected either by making the mind more masculine or the body more feminine, but our understanding of psychology has advanced to the stage where we understanding that trying to alter the mind can be extremely harmful and amount to torture. It's somewhat similar to the old debate about being able to "cure" homosexuality by treating it as a mental illness.
To address your point about people wanting amputations the key difference is that being male or female is a perfectly natural state in which the human mind can be at ease. Removing limbs is not and usually indicates some other problem, where as gender issues usually just indicate gender issues. Of course, in both cases a trained psychologist has to do all they can to determine what treatment is in the best interest of the patient.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
and he/she's going to have problems getting a job with a Dishonorable Discharge. . .
with millions of supporters, this seems highly unlikely.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Informative)
when you get the Big Chicken Dinner you become flat out ineligible for something like 45% of all jobs in the US. thats just the ones where its basically flat out regulated because they have ties or are involved with the government in some way. then theres the corproations where HR is going to see it say "nope", thats probably another 30-35%.
The best options for people with the BCD basically boils down to small companies or friends without government ties/contracts, or entrepenaurship (which is itself hard, cause you gotta get customers, and some of them (such as against the governemnt and some big corps) have rules against who they will source from).
the dishonorable discharge is no joke and very real burden to -anyone- who gets one.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
And that's just a Bad Conduct Discharge, which isn't actually a Dishonorable. An actual Dishonorable is much, much worse. Assuming you didn't get it as a result of a felony, you might as well have committed a felony for all the trouble you are going to have making a living when you get out. With a BCD, you forfeit benefits, with a DD, you are equivalent to an actual civil felon in many states AND you are not permitted to own a firearm by Federal law.
Still, Manning is probably going to have a few more options than most DDs get based on what he did to get there, I expect a book deal at the very least. His real problem is going to be the next seven, sixteen, or thirty-five years he is stuck in Leavenworth and how that affects him when he does get out. Depending on how well he can turn his life around afterward, he may be better off not owning a weapon anyway.
The sad thing about all of this is that, as much as people want to portray him as a heroic whistleblower or a nefarious traitor, he was also in all sorts of emotional turmoil at the time. I'm not so sure he would have made the same decisions if he was in a more stable frame of mind.
In any case, I am really, really annoyed with the military for not removing clearance from someone who was doing things like violent outbursts and who had a history of instability all the way from boot camp on. I am also annoyed with, although not surprised by, about his commanders' reactions to his attempts to express his issues and both their failure to not take it seriously or even to just get him the hell out of work where your lifestyle is supposed to be considered fair game for whether you get a clearance. Manning was clearly an obvious security risk.
BCD != DD (Score:3)
I'll just chime in that while it's probably 45% of jobs TOTAL, a BCD(Bad Conduct Discharge) is different and actually better than a Dishonorable. Most of them fixed on the point that people with one are felons, so any positions that ban felons also ban DDs.
A BCD is a misdemeanor level discharge, a DD is a felony level. I'm not a military lawyer, but that's how I understand it.
Re: (Score:3)
He'll be eligible for parole in seven years. It's unlikely that he'll serve the full 35.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Informative)
No, he's eligible for parole in 1/3 of 35 years. He's eligible for pardon in 7 years.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh look - a prison rape joke - and modded up no less.
How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?
Shocking as it may be to you, Alen, rape is not a part of prisoner reformation standards, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and jokes about forced sex aren't all that funny.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?
Tells us a lot about how the US prison system thinks of human dignity.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Informative)
Saw this on imgur yesterday - worlds worst prisons.
http://imgur.com/gallery/gndRs [imgur.com]
Only two US prisons were on it.
No prison thinks much of human dignity.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Only" two. Why is it that the US claims to be the best country in the world, but it comfortable sharing a list mainly populated by other shining examples of leading countries, such as North Korea, Thailand and Rwanda?
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Egotistical nationalism?
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Only" two. Why is it that the US claims to be the best country in the world, but it comfortable sharing a list mainly populated by other shining examples of leading countries, such as North Korea, Thailand and Rwanda?
You're joking, right? Some random person makes up a list based on unknown data, criteria, and extremely dubious fairness, and the US as a nation should feel humiliated by it? In one of those prisons people were claimed to be engaging in cannibalism. The North Korean prison system is a study [latinospost.com] in atrocity [theguardian.com]. US prisons are nothing like that. I'm reasonably certain that an honest list would have quite a few more prisons on it before getting to US prisons.
But to help clarify things, let's try a thought experiment:
A thought experiment list of the worst people that ever lived:
Stalin
Pol Pot
Mao
SleazyRidr
Should you feel humiliated? Ashamed? No? Of course you shouldn't! Why? Are you a mass murderer responsible for the death of millions? No. So you don't really fit on that list, do you? Well guess what? Including the US prisons on that list is equal nonsense.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's try another thought experiment:
Which nations on earth operate a stateless prison camp where due process and the Geneva Conventions don't apply?
Which nations on earth have military commanders that regularly order the assassination of individuals who receive no due process before their death?
Which nation has the highest number of prisoners, both in raw numbers and per capita?
In each of those answers, for the first time in her history, you'd have to say the answers include America.
These crimes are regularly committed by other nations, and they are rightfully called violations of human rights by US Citizens and the government. But when the United States engages in aggressive warfare, a suspension of basic human rights, and a campaign of persecution against individuals, including journalists, who dare to talk about these items, somehow the conversation turns to talking about another nation instead of our own.
Putin may be a despot, but he is, by all accounts, a superior despot to Stalin. Does that excuse his behavior? Should we wait until he's got a few hundred thousand dead under his belt before we start including him in criticism?
The abject hypocrisy, ignorance, and hollow patriotism that plagues what's left of American culture is nauseating. Not only is our citizenry unable to have an intelligent conversation about world affairs, but they can't be led by facts or argument to any truth that conflicts with their jingoist worldview.
But America, especially in this case, has no place for pride. We treat our dissidents as poorly as our culture will allow -- the same as every other nation on earth. It wasn't too long ago that we were putting dissidents to death, or simply murdering unionists in the street back in the 1920s and 1930s.
Ahh, but who wants to talk about actual history when we can discuss the faults of others? The true mark of any great nation is not how it actually behaves, but only the stories that placate the masses with our nobility and purpose. Our treatment of the powerless, the dissidents, and our enemies can always be justified, as long as we tell ourselves that responsibility and accountability can be abdicated by pointing our finger at a few dead despots.
Is that the extent of your patriotism? Excusing the nonsensical corporal punishment of a dissident to protect the broken, corrupted, and unjust institutions that run our country by stooping so low as to say it's justified since we kill and torture fewer people?
"My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death."
--Twain
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
Only two US prisons were on it.
I think you need to work on your counting skills. I counted 4 current US prisons and one closed (Alcatraz) out of a total of 20.
25% is extremely bad given the US's self perceived high ground in all things moral. Remember this includes the entire world, most of which is comparatively very poor and lacks the resources to do much better.
That said, imgur is hardly a reputable source and the list has clearly been skewed by US prison's notoriety in the west. I'm sure there are far worse out there.
No prison thinks much of human dignity.
I refer you to Norway: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html [time.com]
Only fools support prisons that ignore the dignity of the prisoners. If you actually want to help society, you support and protect those that need it the most.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
I find your view of prisoners rather disheartening, though it is not a surprise. We are all taught to view criminals with a them and us mentality; as if people that haven't been convicted of a crime are morally sound, and those that have are a cancer ruining the rest of society. However the line between them is far more blurred. Indeed, practically all of us would be criminals if the law were omnipresent, fact is that only a tiny percentage of crime is ever dealt with.
The vast majority of prisoners entering prison are not stab happy psychopaths that will murder everyone around them given the chance. Most of them are decent people that have responded in a predictable manner to the difficult situations they have been in, or possibly have made a extremely bad and uncharacteristic decision under extreme conditions.
Humans are social animals, and will conform to the surroundings in which they are placed. If you put them into a prison with a system of fear from the guards, a culture of crime from the other inmates, give them no responsibilities, they will behave as such. This is why the recidivism rates are so high. Change the system, change the culture, change the outcomes. Obviously this cannot be done overnight, it will take a long time to undo the damage done by the current system, but it could be done.
I refer you to an excellent TEDx talk done by Prof Lesley McAra, head of my universities' law school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWEqLcPTv9U [youtube.com]
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Informative)
Just lots of suicide because of complete isolation.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Insightful)
How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?
Tells us a lot about how the US prison system thinks of human dignity.
Tells us a lot more about how US citizens think of prisoner dignity. It's always seemed to me that to the vocal minority at least, and possibly the vast majority of Americans, people stop being human when they're locked up in Jail. Innocent until proven guilty, but once proven guilty (of anything), suddenly all human rights and freedoms go out the door, because nobody "normal" could be guilty of anything....
I recommend that anyone making prison rape jokes go visit a few prisons and talk to people... inmates AND staff. Visit a few different places; low, medium, and high if they'll let you in.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suggest you go to a rape counseling center, and ask the women there is they care that the man who raped them may face the possibility of being raped in prison.
Go ask an adult survivor of child abuse if they feel upset that their uncle/father/priest/etc may be subjected to rape in prison.
Keep a running tally of which one are as horrified as you are, and which one feel it is the least that should happen to them. Report back here when you are done.
Done that; there are some people who have been so traumatized that even the subject of rape to anyone causes them to wall themselves off. There are others who consider their attackers so inhuman for doing the things they did that they take vindictive pleasure in the concept of their attacker being subjected to what they dished out. There are others who have healed more, who just want it all to stop, and share the same sadness (not horror) that this is perpetuated in prison.
You see, most of those rapists in prison, if you dig into their past, were sexually abused themselves. Being sexually abused seems to snap something in the brain that allows you to easily see people as "not human". Recovering from that is extremely difficult, and some people turn to a life of crime/abuse as their coping mechanism.
So my original point stands: it says something about the perspective US citizens (or at least some vocal minorities as I said) have on human dignity. Dehumanization never ends well; forgiveness is MUCH tougher (and some things may never be fully forgiven, especially if the person never really showed any regret or sorrow about what they did), but it's the best way to break the chain.
Rape jokes are not funny (Score:4, Funny)
unless they involve prison. Am I politically correct yet?
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Comedy is a legitimate form of social/political commentary.
Everything is funny, everything should be discussed and criticize, and joking is a way to do that.
Re: (Score:3)
Indeed. Comedy is a powerful and many faceted thing. You can accomplish many things with a joke, good and bad. Amongst the bad is trivialising and victimising the subject. The acceptability of a joke doesn't depend on its subject matter, but on its content and intent.
Where's the social/political commentary in the "don't drop the soap in prison" joke? It seems to me to be all about trivialising rape and normalising it as an acceptable (if not encouraged) part of the prison system. That makes it repr
Re: (Score:3)
How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US
By-product of people living a sheltered life or a comment by someone not old enough to know how difficult life can be.
There's little room for empathy when you've never had a point of reference.
Re: (Score:3)
How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?
It is quite sad, but you fail at comedy.
Shocking as it may be to you, Alen, rape is not a part of prisoner reformation standards, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and jokes about forced sex aren't all that funny.
You are incorrect. Humor is subjective. Gender dysphoria exists, but so does male pattern baldness, habitual lying, codependency, and a host of other non-life-threatening issues that prisons do not generally treat -- It makes such punishments all the more heinous, IMO, and what they label "rehabilitation" laughable. Additionally, in order to protect prisons from prisoner's suing over systemic rape, they have begun instituting a reformation: Prisoners are now requir
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes because the 8th amendment is an inconvenient obstacle for official justice. Just a reminder that your position puts you on the side of a murderer.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Funny)
Better than... umm...
Ok, you won.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
You ever been raped? You ignorant asshole.
Why do you think so many rape victims commit suicide? Even after months or years of therapy and trying to forget?
At least if the person is killed, the torment is over.
This comment, and a few above, is from someone who knows what it feels like to have someone's dick inside them against their will. Also, someone who has contemplated suicide, as well as mass murder.
I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.
If you can't appreciate that, you obviously have no experience in the subject, and can take your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Interesting)
You ever been raped? You ignorant asshole.
Yes.
Why do you think so many rape victims commit suicide? Even after months or years of therapy and trying to forget?
It's a horrible experience. Some people can't deal with it.
At least if the person is killed, the torment is over.
My torment was over years ago... it was tough getting over it, but I did, and am glad to be alive.
I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.
I feel nothing but pity for my attacker. He never went to prison, by the way, his punishment was being deported back to his own country. I don't hate him any more, I don't care about him at all. I used to want revenge, but I figured out it was hurting me more than it would hurt him.
If you can't appreciate that, you obviously have no experience in the subject, and can take your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.
I do have experience of this. You're the one with the self righteous indignation. You're the one claiming murder is almost equivalent to rape. I'm a happy, relatively well adjusted person now.
Also, I resent the fact that you imply that no one can comment on the issue unless they have been raped. People are allowed opinions on stuff that has not actually happened to them.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Insightful)
I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.
In other words, you want personal revenge, not social justice.
Which is fine, but prisons are not meant to be the tools of your personal revenge. Aside from your tax dollars, they're also funded by my tax dollars, and I certainly don't want them to be used for torture punishments.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
part of humor is taking controversial things and making fun of them
Another important part of humor is originality and creativity. Prison-rape jokes lost all hope of either many years ago. The GP was not making fun of rape, he was making fun of the rape victim.
In a democracy, We The People are responsible for the ethical treatment of inmates. It's one thing to laugh at a random "FAIL" video on YouTube, quite another to laugh at the horrid abuse of people who could EASILY be protected if we took a few simple measures to change how our prisons are managed.
http://www.justdetention.org/ [justdetention.org]
Don't forget, a quarter of the prison population is there for non-violent drug offenses. It's not the rapists who get raped in prison (ie: people who might justifiably deserve it), it's the weak ones who get victimized.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
some deep rooted psychological scar from being in the armed forces.
I'm going to say that he was screwed up before ever entering the military; being in the military certainly didn't help though. One of the signs was that he was placed in a discharge unit. If his commanding officers had made the call he would have been kicked out and be free to transition today.
Please note: I'm active duty and have an openly gay married* commander. I won't say that he hasn't had problems in his career, it having very much started during 'don't ask don't tell', but he hasn't been having problems with us.
But at the same time I'm NOT going to make like the military is some utopia for trans people. It's much better for gay people, but I would state that as a category the US military is currently NOT a place you want to be if you want to transition. Bradley Manning will probably not be allowed to transition during his time at Leavenworth. The DoD just doesn't have any measures to allow it, which means that people would have to take the effort to do so.
As a general matter, if you want to transition and you're in the military, your best option is to keep quiet and let your enlistment run out. If you're really desperate, there are a number of ways to get out quicker. A bit tougher since DADT ended, but there are still ways. You might lose some benefits, but there's plenty of things you can do where the military will decide to discharge you to be rid of you and not do much else.
(BTW, I go by a '2 out of 3' standard: mental, physical outward, and DNA; he hasn't started transition yet so he's still a he).
*I wrote it this way because I've known gay people who married the opposite gender for various reasons.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Funny)
I think having a gay battalion would do a lot to 'further the country's foreign policy goals'.
Could Saddam have survived the first gulf war if the republican guards where handed their asses by the 'lavender battalion'?
Besides military bases are pretty ugly. They will get rid of all that boring olive drab.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent a TROLL, not funny. I really do like the word-play, but I don't think this deserves anything else.
After reading the comments section of CNN for this story, I'm already severely disheartened that, despite that the attitudes for gays has greatly improved, comments with over 700 net positive upvotes over there say he should also serve 35 years as a prisoner within what he perceives to be a wrong body as an additional punishment.
At first I thought Manning's sudden announcement of gender identity was
Re: (Score:3)
comments with over 700 net positive upvotes over there say he should also serve 35 years as a prisoner within what he perceives to be a wrong body as an additional punishment.
Most people are not aware that there is no effective treatment for people with gender identity problems. There is some mixed data regarding the effectiveness of reassignment surgery, but the general consensus seems to be that changing one's gender seems to be the only thing that helps keep these people from killing themselves. Once you have this conversation with people, they typically agree that it is the way to go, so don't get too upset with the CNN crowd - they aren't doctors and they aren't all caught
Re: (Score:3)
I cant exist at all points in the universe simultaneously and it bothers me, can we find a treatment for that too?
Does it bother you to the extent that you will fall into depression and likely commit suicide? If so, then yes, you should probably see a doctor.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Insightful)
As a general rule, "use some willpower and get over it" is a poor approach for any psychosis. If it merely "bothers you", meh, whatever, but if your day-to-day activities are significantly impeded by your mental state, or you're a danger to yourself or others (a couple of ways of drawing a line between neurosis and psychosis), then treatment is called for. Especially if the root cause is a "hardware problem, not a software problem", willpower isn't going to help.
Would you really argue that someone who has a problem with psychosis shouldn't take his meds, if meds are available?
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
He says he's felt this way since childhood, seems to have discussed the issue at length with a psychologist while in the military, and even suggested that he had joined the military in the hopes that it would somehow cure him.
Re: (Score:3)
Manning's gender dysphoria was on record going back to before the leaks even happened. So no, while the confinement and sentence have certainly been traumatizing, they're not the cause. Considering the timing of her announcement, I'd guess she waited until after the sentencing to avoid affecting, delaying or complicating the trial.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not a human right, but gender reassignment is the only treatment for gender identity problems. The rational thing to do is treat the prisoner appropriately, not hold back for some ideological reason.
Re:Hormone therapy? (Score:5, Informative)
I know you're trolling, but attraction to women is fairly common in trans women. However, the desire to "be a lesbian" doesn't factor into the decision to undergo gender transition for the vast majority of trans women. All of the trans women I know have a horrible time of dating women and pretty much have to give up hope of finding a girlfriend after beginning transition. Additionally, they typically lose their current relationship if any in a spectacular explosion of drama.
That's not to say that all trans women find women attractive. Some like me prefer men, which actually means additional soul searching before beginning transition and weighing alternatives such as adopting a homosexual identity.
And this is relevant how...? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Funny)
If she wants to be a man or woman, you insensitive clod!
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:4, Insightful)
He will always be a he no matter what psychological issues he has to deal with...
Genetics is only one indicator of sex, and not even a good one when it comes to physiology [wikipedia.org], let alone psychology.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Interesting)
No offence to you, but I don't give a fuck about your opinion. And normally I wouldn't say it, but since you seem to think it's important to tell everyone what you don't care about...
I find Manning's actions and any information about her history which would go toward explaining them both interesting and important. People do not act in a vacuum.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Insightful)
In one sentence: Bradley was our hero. Now Chelsea is our hero.
It's a story that many of us have been following since the beginning. For those among us that are not robots the lives of the people involved are at least of passing interest to us. In my opinion Manning has done a great thing. He/she deserves better than being relegated to obscurity the moment the story is over.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Funny)
In one sentence: Bradley was our hero. Now Chelsea is our hero.
That is two sentences.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the current state of society as long as he insists it's one sentence then we all must agree that it is so.
Re: (Score:3)
And give him a medal for it.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Funny)
Bad move. Now no honest Arsenal fan can like him/her any more. :-)
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Equally important is why this is news at all?
Yes, Bradley Manning is an important person. But the details of his personal issues are not newsworthy, except as how they may have effected his decision to provide the information to Wikileaks. Its certain his sexual identity problems played some role in his unhappiness with his position in the army. But ultimately this is a man depressed about who he is and wanting to change. At root, it's not much different from scrawny guy wanting to be big and butch and - unable to live up to that fantasy - doing something reckless. But if that were all there was to the story, you can be sure it wouldn't get half the coverage this one does.
And why is this so much more exciting? Because transexualism is still considered indecent and indicative of severe psychological problems by our society. Manning is being demonized as a a nut, a freak; certainly not someone to look up to as a patriot standing up for the ideals of his country. The release of this information is an attempt at distracting the public from the much more important problems his actions brought to light, and as a warning to other whistleblowers. It's an underlying message that says not only says "Fuck with the government and all your dirty laundry will be made public" but also "only weirdos and loons would consider a 'traitorous' act like Manning's in the first place!")
So, yeah, not being personally involved with Bradley Manning I find the details of the problems that led to his actions inconsequential. They are his private demons that he needs to deal with alone. I'd rather the focus be on the other, far more newsworthy problems brought up by his case, be it the revelations in the leaks themselves, the response by the government to said leaks, or even how poorly the US Army is dealing with the psychologically vulnerable members of its armed forces. THAT is news, not whether Mr. Manning is happy with his dick or not.
Re:And this is relevant how...? (Score:5, Interesting)
Because it's controversial and will generate tons of responses and lots of flaming. I don't care what he calls him/herself. It's Jerry Springer stuff and there is enough of that crap on TV so we sure as shit could do without it on a supposed techno/geek site.
Re: (Score:3)
99.99% of people identify entirely as a gender which accords somehow with the sex organs they were born with
Can you find any pre-20th century literature or records showing a gender identification which was NOT based on sex organs? I dont mean adjectively referring to feminine attributes, or poetic language, and Im not talking about hermaphrodites-- I mean actually calling an individual born with testes a "she" or "female" or whatever.
I would be really surprised if you found any at all.
Me too. (Score:5, Funny)
As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Anonymous Cowardess, I am a female.
Popcorn (Score:4, Insightful)
Getting popcorn - I fully expect this discussion to be mature and informative.
Why is this on Slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares if he wants to live as a woman, a man or a chipmonk?
This inane crap belongs on Digg not here.
Imma call him Bradley (Score:4, Funny)
Saul: A man has the right to change his name to vatever he vants to change it to. And if a man vants to be called Chelsea, godammit this is a free country, you should respect his vishes, and call the man Chelsea!
Morris: His mamma call him Bradley, imma call him Bradley.
Saul: Then you're a putz. All of you are putzes. They should change the sign outside from My-T-Sharp to 'ze Three Putzes.
Section 8 (Score:5, Funny)
Bravo, Washington Post (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bravo, Washington Post (Score:5, Insightful)
slashdot IS comments. I can find these stories all over the web (in fact as we all joke we usually do before its here) but we come to slashdot for the comments. Sure the quality has dropped in the past 10 years but there are still alot of good posters here, and there is no reason to disable posts on a story because of fear of what will be said. In fact the entire Idea just tells me whatever is happeneing that we would even considering such a thing, is a horrible thing to begin with or something that is clearly wrong.
Why is this relevant? (Score:3)
The Full Statement (Score:5, Informative)
Associated Press — FORT MEADE, Md. — The text of U.S. Army Pfc. Bradley Manning’s statement that will be sent to the president, as read by defense attorney David Coombs following Manning’s sentencing Wednesday, below:
--------
Manning's statement, in full:
The decisions that I made in 2010 were made out of a concern for my country and the world that we live in. Since the tragic events of 9/11, our country has been at war. We’ve been at war with an enemy that chooses not to meet us on any traditional battlefield, and due to this fact we’ve had to alter our methods of combating the risks posed to us and our way of life.
I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing.
It was at this time I realized that (in) our efforts to meet the risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity. We consciously elected to devalue human life both in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we engaged those that we perceived were the enemy, we sometimes killed innocent civilians. Whenever we killed innocent civilians, instead of accepting responsibility for our conduct, we elected to hide behind the veil of national security and classified information in order to avoid any public accountability. In our zeal to kill the enemy, we internally debated the definition of torture. We held individuals at Guantanamo for years without due process. We inexplicably turned a blind eye to torture and executions by the Iraqi government. And we stomached countless other acts in the name of our war on terror.
Patriotism is often the cry extolled when morally questionable acts are advocated by those in power. When these cries of patriotism drown out any logically based dissension, it is usually the American soldier that is given the order to carry out some ill-conceived mission.
Our nation has had similar dark moments for the virtues of democracy — the Trail of Tears, the Dred Scott decision, McCarthyism, and the Japanese-American internment camps — to mention a few. I am confident that many of the actions since 9/11 will one day be viewed in a similar light.
As the late Howard Zinn once said, “There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.”
I understand that my actions violated the law; I regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the United States. It was never my intent to hurt anyone. I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others.
If you deny my request for a pardon, I will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society.
I will gladly pay that price if it means we could have a country that is truly conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all women and men are created equal.
Re:The Full Statement (Score:4, Insightful)
This is as poignant and germane as any revolutionary war document. I'd vote for Manning as a member of the new constitutional congress.
So Mr. Manning "suffers from" narcissism? (Score:4, Funny)
Kind of an absurd turn of phrase, isn't it? It's a bit like saying that someone "suffers from" being an asshole.
(Whether Manning deserves to be called a narcissist at all... that is, of course, a whole other question).
It's a matter of degree (Score:4, Informative)
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is narcissism taken to unhealthy extremes; it describes only about 1 percent of the population. One might argue that "being an asshole" affects a far, far larger percentage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3)
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is narcissism taken to unhealthy extremes; it describes only about 1 percent of the population.
I was being flippant, but let me try to restate my point more seriously:
There is something problematic with the idea of classifying a "personality disorder" as a type of medical disorder-- especially when the personality disorder is defined by qualities such as "arrogance" or "lack of empathy". The implication, which of course is never stated in so many words, is that "narcissism" is a condition similar to rheumatoid arthritis, and that we musn't blame those who are "afflicted" by it.
(The diagnosis of "gen
Let's Not Be Jerks (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a straight, cisgendered ( transgender people's word for "normal" ), white, and quite handsome man.........please lets not make fun of Manning.
He is a human being, some who consider to be a hero, who just happens to have problems.
Re: (Score:3)
The actual term is "Sane".
Really, it's no different than the delusions that one is Napoleon.
Fierce denial of reality, construction their own delusions, self mutilation... these people need serious mental treatment, not coddling
Manning and other transgender people know what reality is, therefore they are not insane.
They have a mismatch between what their brain thinks their body should look like and what there bodies are like.
It is similar to that story of the woman who wanted to cut her legs off because of
Re:Let's Not Be Jerks (Score:5, Insightful)
Cisgendered means your brain gender matches your physical gender. The whole point of not using the word 'normal' is to avoid saying that people who are not cisgendered are not normal.
Which is stupid PC crap. Being transgendered isn't normal. Which is not to say that's a bad thing, they're just being offended for no reason. Normal means, "according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle". Think normal distribution. Most people are not transgendered, therefore being transgendered is not not normal.
By itself, not being normal isn't offensive. Most people can't run as fast as Usain Bolt, therefore Usain Bolt isn't normal. That's not an insult.
Name change? (Score:5, Funny)
Bradley Womanning?
If i was going away for 35 years (Score:5, Funny)
Swore it was an Onion headline (Score:3)
With this timing, I had to re-read the headline in my RSS reader 3 times to be sure it wasn't from The Onion. Apparently this isn't new information but it was the first I'd heard of it.
Sounds like false flag to me. (Score:3)
Honestly,
It seems like this tidbit of info, coming when it has, is pitch perfect to make people stop listening to the Bradley Manning situation and turn the whole fiasco into a bad joke.
Isn't that just TERRIBLY convenient for the government?
Propaganda? (Score:3)
The timing seems... odd to me. Right when people are using this guy as a hero and poster boy for whistleblowing and BAM. Try to make him look "a little off in the head" instead.
Just seems rather PSYOP-flavored story. I'm probably wrong, but it feels that way.
No, because it's not insanity (Score:5, Informative)
Self-identifying as a woman is not a sign of insanity. There are quite a number of transgendered people in the world today, from young to old, pre-op or post-op, leading perfectly normal lives.
While we used to refer to the condition as Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-IV, it was replaced with Gender Dysphoria in the DSM-V because we now don't think of it as a disorder. In fact, the general "treatment" is not to make the mind match the body, but to make the body match the mind. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder [wikipedia.org] .
Re: (Score:3)
Sounds like they thoroughly broke him. First apologizing and then this. Doesn't look like he is going for insanity (trial is over), seems like he got insane for his time in solitary. Not saying that because he self identifies as a woman (something that happens to some people naturally) but because of the timing of the whole matter.
This was from before. His defense (I assume) even released photos of him in a wig and lipstick.
Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him (Score:5, Informative)
All accounts I have seen indicate that he was starting to feel this way long before any of this happened. I have some Tranny friends (will be camping with them this weekend in fact) and it isn't something one just suddenly one day decide, or that people go crazy and decide to do....its usually accompanied by lifelong feelings of not really being "right".
Hell, I met one woman who lived as a man for years, never felt right, transitioned, and not till the age of about 50 did doctors find some small ovaries inside her. Had apparently really been part woman the whole time, never knew it.
This transition creates an odd conflict. Bradley Manning is a household name. He leaked secrets, he is either a hero of villian. He is a symbol.
Who is Chelsea Manning? She is just a woman going to jail. Nobody knows her. She is not a household name, not a symbol.
Maybe that works out in her favor in the long run? I don't really know, it is a bit of a toss up.... but we have been talking about the plight of Bradley Manning so long, I wonder that maybe this is bad timing, but, maybe there is no good timing.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:A public announcement on national TV. (Score:5, Funny)
Much to his distress.
Re: (Score:3)
They already are. A lot of conservative blogs and news sites have long been claiming that Manning is proof Teh Geys are a threat to national security and condemning liberals for endangering the country by letting them serve in the military. This is just going to revitalize their old gay-panic angle.
Re:WTF (Score:5, Insightful)
Never do. Gender identity people generally feel so much deeply foundational shame that they go their entire lives, telling no one. Wasn't there news media coverage of a 40 year old married man that finally decided (after raising the kids was done and they were well on their way) that she couldn't take it anymore and needed to transition. I think a lot of regular Joe's natural reaction to hearing something like this is that the TG individual must be incredibly selfish and perverse to put their family through the pain of having their family fractured in such a way (familial identity especially is immutable!) But I think the reality is that a TG is experiencing pain which equals the combined expected pain and discomfort of their loved ones -- why else would they wait so long?
In my anecdotal story my brother only told me, but didn't mention it in their suicide note, so I've told no one.. (... quadruple check that I'm posting anonymously..)