British Police Foil Alleged Mall Massacre Copycat Plot 292
An anonymous reader writes "The Washington Post reports, "British law enforcement agencies averted a plot to orchestrate a large-scale terror attack similar to the assault on Kenya's Westgate mall, an official said Monday. Police were questioning four men in their 20s on suspicion of terrorism after they were detained Sunday in pre-planned, intelligence-led raids. A British security official said the men were planning a shooting spree akin to the Westgate attack in Nairobi, in which at least 67 people died. ... in a series of statements, the force said the men were all British nationals between the ages of 25 and 29, with roots in Turkey, Pakistan, Algeria and Azerbaijan. ... the London police firearms unit took part in the arrests. British police rarely carry weapons and their involvement suggested concern that men might have been armed." — The Sydney Morning Herald has video. Prime Minister Cameron recently expressed concern regarding such a possibility."
DOUBLEPLUS (Score:2, Insightful)
Fake.
Just like the "terrorists" the FBI keeps "catching".
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It's terrible that my first impression on news like this is "ya, right...", especially after the Kenyan incident.
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It was barely a year ago where I easily dismissed my conspiracy-minded friends saying this stuff. today it makes more sense than any official story I've heard in months.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Insightful)
Here is a question for you. Why is it you and the "conspiracy-minded friends" you describe all find it plausible that the government is engaging in conspiracies, but apparently dismiss the possibility that there are terrorists engaging in conspiracies to commit murder and mayhem? It isn't like there isn't a history of plots, attacks, arrests, and convictions of actual and would be terrorists. Why do you, and they, dismiss that evidence? Are we heading down the road of everything being a "false flag".... the plague of Slashdot discussions for so many years in which nothing is what it is? Or is there some other reason? Is there any level of proof that would sway either you or them?
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Or, with less tinfoil headgear, we could consider that it was probably suspected enough to get response teams in place, but not reliably confirmed enough to justify the panic a closure would cause. When it then turned out to be real, the response turned out to be inadequate.
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That's the problem when we have organizations like the NSA out there spying on everyone. Once that is proven, every tinfoil hat conspiracy starts to look less crazy to a growing segment of the population. Especially when those who (correctly) alleged what we have now proven about domestic spying used to be lumped in with the nutters.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Interesting)
The presence of SAS men and Israeli commandos in Westgate, at the time of the attack is remarkable.
You find the antiterrorist forces responding to a terrorist attack to be remarkable? Much like the Fire Brigade showing up at a fire?
The only question for those in possession of the facts is this: Was Westgate allowed to happen by those who could have prevented it, or was it actually sponsored by those same agencies?
The leadership of the terrorist group could have prevented it, but it fit with their plans and usual method of operation. My question is, why do you keep denying that?
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Informative)
One man [mirror.co.uk] and he was off-duty.
and Israeli commandos in Westgate
Those commandos were airlifted [ibtimes.co.uk] after the siege began. They were not there when things happened.
Either go back on or get your off meds because the tinfoil isn't working.
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Why on earth would that matter?
I am an adherent to a spiritual community that has been historically persecuted by Islamic judges and theologians.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Insightful)
Since you keep making these claims, you must have some evidence. Can you present it? Or is this just a crank theory of yours?
Were the 7/7 London attacks [bbc.co.uk] "fake" too? Including the 52 dead bodies?
Are the convictions that the police are getting "fake" too?
London terror bomb plot: the four terrorists [telegraph.co.uk]
Four men pleaded guilty to plotting a Christmas bomb attack on the London Stock Exchange and causing a 'Mumbai-style' atrocity.
Fertiliser bomb plot: The story [bbc.co.uk]
Five men have been convicted of plotting to build a bomb which police say could have killed hundreds of British people. The men were caught after police and MI5 launched a massive surveillance operation.
Since you're Canadian, perhaps you could comment on this plot. Was it "fake" too?
Canada jails Toronto truck bomb plotter Zakaria Amara [bbc.co.uk]
One of the key figures in a conspiracy to set off three truck bombs in Canada has been sentenced to life imprisonment. Zakaria Amara, 24, pleaded guilty in October to co-leading the Islamist militant group dubbed the Toronto 18. The group's targets included the city's stock exchange and a military base.
These sorts of attacks are consistent with the announced intention of terrorist groups around the world. I think you need to present some evidence rather than simply make proclamations.
Tinfoil hats over here! (Score:2)
I've got exactly what you need [urbandictionary.com]! Tinfoil hats are cheap [amazon.co.uk]. They are easy, to make too, it takes less than two [youtube.com] minutes. Don't believe the MIT study [theatlantic.com] that debunks the time honored tinfoil hat, it's a government conspiracy you know!
Don't worry, there are support groups [meetup.com] for conspiracy theorists! Now I know like any number of other conspiracy theories those pesky facts might get in the way [popularmechanics.com]. However, learn from Joseph Goebbels [psywarrior.com] and don't ever let logic, facts or reality get in your way. I know you look like a raving l
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Or alternatively, news should be outlawed because it clearly incites people to violence.
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Even in TFA they were only accused of planning to plan. AKA daydreaming. Kinda like the stereotypical teen slacker who is thinking about considering looking for a job maybe
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Depends where it was. In one of the three major cities, not long. Especially London. The armed Police in London have a response unit on the roads 24 hours a day, and they shoot first and ask questions later.
Just because the everyday copper is not armed it doesn't mean an armed response unit is not available.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Funny)
and they shoot first and ask questions later.
Yeah, that's what happens when you respond to "Can I ask you something?" with "Shoot!" one too many times.
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What complete bollocks. The usage of an armed response is so infrequent here that every event is heavily scrutinised. The media circus surrounding the 2011 Mark Duggan case as a good example.
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The SAS will be flown in by helicopter and they will massacre the terrorists until none of them is left. (Unles they forget their brew kit, of course, because they cannot fight without one.)
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Insightful)
It will not. Terrorism is not a relevant threat to anything. It is a cheap way to scare people though. This stupid argument (scare them so they do not think clearly) has been used time and again. But it is only one thing: Manipulative. It has no connection to reality other than that. For real threats to your life, limb and well-being: Cars, cancer, heart disease, and governments that mess it up. In the US, add guns.
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Random accidents and disease are different than deliberate, planned human action. If not, then why prosecute bank robberies, murder, and assault? Why not just report them like an accidental drowning and be done with it? There is a flaw to your thinking. If unchecked, terrorist violence grows.
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Nonsense. Terrorist violence grows with the level of fanaticism and dissatisfaction. Law enforcement has no influence on terrorist levels or number of murders, although they want you to believe differently, of course, because it affects the amount of money and power they get. In fact, with regard to many crimes, law enforcement turns out to be a fundamentally flawed concept that does not work in practice. It is, however, what authoritarians have wet dreams about: Force everybody into a fixed sets of behavio
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"Terrorism is not a relevant threat to anything" unless its your ass that gets shot.
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"Terrorism is not a relevant threat to anything" unless its your ass that gets shot.
True... but as a UK citizen who has lived in the US and several other countries with varying levels of firearm legislation, I can acknowledge that simply putting more guns on the streets would make the occasional massive rampage less likely because the shooter gets shot earlier, but without performing an in/depth study, my recollection of recent gun rampages is that the vast majority of them have been by people in countries where weapons can be carried openly without law enforcement interference, or in coun
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The thing with Switzerland is that people are living in an intact society and violence is not accepted as a means to solve problems. Also, you do not carry these guns around loaded, as they are assault rifles and the ammunition is sealed. Breaking that seal without orders puts you into very hot water. This eliminates all the accidental shootings and short-term rage shootings.
On the other hand, all these gun-owners have training on how to be effective with them. So if anybody wants to go on a rampage, it wil
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"Terrorism is not a relevant threat to anything" unless its your ass that gets shot.
Yes. Which is unlikely enough that winning the lottery is far more likely. Understanding probability is a requirement for any sensible risk-management. Fear is not a suitable replacement. Those that worry about being terrorist victims have not understand how this reality works.
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Guns, by themselves, are not a threat to your well-being.
If you mean "criminals with guns", if you live outside of areas of chronic poverty where gang violence is common, and if you're neither a violent criminal nor and an associate of violent criminals, "criminals with guns" are not much of a threat to your well-being compared to "cars, cancer, heart disease, and governments that mess it up". No more so than in comparable nations.
The problem is that, thanks to racism and economic in
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There are also "insufficiently secured loaded guns", which kill quite a few children in the US every year. And other accidents. Guns are not toys, yet some people do not understand that and accidents happen. No "criminals" required at all, just common human stupidity.
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Until? I will take the odds on that "until" any day of the week. If I was scared about threats like that, I would be in bed rocking back and forth sucking my thumb, and wouldn't go near a car.
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Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, because the "the deadliest non-school shooting rampage in American history [wikipedia.org]" didn't occur in Texas.
Considering a lot of these guys commit suicide after they're done, what makes you think that their victims being armed or not is a particularly big concern?
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Informative)
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Informative)
Quite correct.
Luby's massacre [wikipedia.org]
In response to the massacre,[21] the Texas Legislature in 1995 passed a shall-issue gun law, which requires that all qualifying applicants be issued a Concealed Handgun License (the state's required permit to carry concealed weapons), removing the personal discretion of the issuing authority to deny such licenses. To qualify for a license, one must be free-and-clear of crimes, attend a minimum 10-hour class taught by a state-certified instructor, pass a 50-question test, show proficiency in a 50-round shooting test, and pass two background tests, one shallow and one deep. The license costs $140 for a four year license; in addition applicants must pay $10 for fingerprinting as well as instructor costs which vary.
And so: Woman with Concealed Carry Permit Stops 6 Robbers in Houston [townhall.com]
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From the story you linked:
Clearly both this womanâ(TM)s life and her husbandâ(TM)s life were saved by her carrying a concealed weapon
Bullshit.. that's not clear in the slightest. It only talks about a robbery and some guys talking rough - not attempted murder. The worst that would have happened was someone getting away with their car and wallets. I wonder how much the gun, training and license even cost compared to their potential losses and insurance claim.
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The worst that would have happened was someone getting away with their car and wallets.
You don't know that. It could have ended up like this: Crime History: Wendy's workers killed execution-style [washingtonexaminer.com]
Or this: Chuck E Cheese killer, Nathan J. Dunlap moves closer to execution, Supreme Court rejects appeal [wptv.com]
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If you prevent a crime from happening it's never clear that you prevented anything.
Maybe they wouldn't have gone through with it.
Maybe they would have been struck by lightning.
Maybe a message from god would have shown them the error of their ways.
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It's the sickening assumption it's best, so sayeth those in ivory towers, that nobody be permitted to fight back, lest a robber get killed, that has lead to liberalization of ccw and stand your ground laws.
This is not a hyperbplic overstatement.
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So if a strange man car-jacks me, I shouldn't shoot him because he probably only wants a ride to the airport and definitely doesn't want to murder me and dump me on a back country road, so I should just cooperate?
We have taught our children to submit quietly to criminals for too long. It is time we start teaching them to defend themselves.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Informative)
And the deadliest school massacre to date did not involve firearms... [wikipedia.org]
Nor was it in Texas.
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Yep, because the "the deadliest non-school shooting rampage in American history [wikipedia.org]" didn't occur in Texas.
Considering a lot of these guys commit suicide after they're done, what makes you think that their victims being armed or not is a particularly big concern?
You are wrong on your facts.
Plus, it doesn't do a terrorist any good to be gunned down the instant they brandish a weapon.
Unless they can actually inflict significant death and destruction, they accomplish nothing.
Trading the life of one school kid for their own before being gunned down by passers by isn't really on their agenda.
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"Dominated"? You might want to use something other than language you picked up in an FPS when there are no respawns.
Yes, it can "spoil the whole thing", but there would be a lot less "things" if guns were harder to come by. I'm sure this argument has been played out hundreds of thousands of times online by now though, and those who worship guns aren't going to give up their god anytime soon.
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the term dominated actually turns up in much more relevant contexts, like poker where a "Dominated" hand is one that has very little chance of winning. The technical definition would be "3 outs or less". from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domination_(poker) [wikipedia.org]
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Now domination aside, I doubt this. Mostly because there are not a lot of shootings to begin with. To make it look like alot people do the same tricks they always do to ignore scale, look at raw numbers over huge geographical areas, ignore total population size, ignore details (suicides account for the majority of deaths in some figures), and especially ignore that taking a small single digit in 100,000 number and doubling it, still makes for a really small number.
If gun violence is a significant problem, t
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Quit trying to bring logic into this.
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:4, Informative)
This happened in San Antonio... one of the malls had a mass shooting abruptly stopped by a concealed weapons carrier pointing his piece at the shooter making his opening rounds... and stopping the massacre before it started.
I wish having to have everyone armed was not necessary. I wish the US had a federal police force where officer training was on par with Germany's officers or English bobbies. Stuff like knowing the law, unarmed combat, situation de-escalation, and being able to handle a situation with words as opposed to pulling out the stungun or the .40 and opening fire.
It used to be this way. I remember days where a simple clearing of the throat by a police officer would immediately stop a fight. I remember when an arrest was a "you are coming with me" statement, not this down on the ground ritual of cuffing and stuffing.
Would I live in a police state? If the police were beholden to the people and there wasn't this mutual fear (police fear citizens, citizens fear police), then yes. Let people who are trained and know what they are doing (and the ramifications of their actions) enforce things. A society needs laws (and enforcement) to function, but on the other hand, the laws have to be made so they don't breed contempt (like the "war on drugs" crap.)
Re:DOUBLEPLUS (Score:5, Insightful)
Would I live in a police state? If the police were beholden to the people and there wasn't this mutual fear (police fear citizens, citizens fear police), then yes. Let people who are trained and know what they are doing (and the ramifications of their actions) enforce things. A society needs laws (and enforcement) to function, but on the other hand, the laws have to be made so they don't breed contempt (like the "war on drugs" crap.)
That would not be a police state. That would be a state where the police serve the people and the people work with and assist the police. Neither of those are true in the United States.
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BRITAIN DID TO KENYA ... terrify prisoners ... ‘maul’ them... Abu Ghraib ... various indignities .... sodomise one another ...
What relevance does any of that have to either this incident? What relevance does it have to the terrorist attack at Westgate mall last month that these suspects apparently hoped to recreate?
That axe of yours must be getting might sharp with all the grinding.
A religion of peace (Score:5, Funny)
Really, it is.
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There are no "religions of peace". What happened to them is that they got wiped out a few thousand years ago by the other religions. Religions are very much subject to evolution. (Which is hysterical, come to think of it.) Today, there are just some that use "peace" as camouflage, but all religion can safely be assumed to be dangerous if the sufferer is deeply infected ("fundamentalist" or "fanatic"). BTW, in this sense, political orientations can qualify as "religion".
Bunk from the virulently faithless (Score:2)
Today, there are just some that use "peace" as camouflage, but all religion can safely be assumed to be dangerous if the sufferer is deeply infected ("fundamentalist" or "fanatic").
Your use of the "fundamentalist" label makes your post intellectually lazy drivel filled with the same intolerance you pretend to be against. The word "fundamentalist" generally means a religion has a set of unalterable principles which are not subject to deviation or debate and which serve as a foundation for the practice of that faith and the conduct of adherents. By that measure, the vast majority of Christians, Budhists, Hindus, or "fundamentalist" Atheists for that matter, are not going around killin
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Only flaw: Your statement is not in line with observable reality. Fundamentalists have no tolerance for anybody that thinks differently (including members of the same religion) and are easily incited to kill, maim and slaughter everybody perceived by them to be "different". That is the problem with religion: Depending on infection degree (meme infection), intellectual capabilities, empathy and common decency get suspended and replaced by easy recipes that often involve strong forms of aggression.
And no, I a
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Fundamentalists have no tolerance for anybody that thinks differently (including members of the same religion) and are easily incited to kill, maim and slaughter everybody perceived by them to be "different". That is the problem with religion: Depending on infection degree (meme infection), intellectual capabilities, empathy and common decency get suspended and replaced by easy recipes that often involve strong forms of aggression.
And no, I am not intellectually lazy, rather you did not understand what I wrote.
I understood what you said as an incredibly narrow characterization of behavior and disposition of people of faith, focused on the limited dimension of aggression in conflict, as if that were the most dominant human social experience. For those of us who live generally full lives with different kinds of interactions, it is not. I've set foot in North, Central, and South America, Asia, Africa, Australia and Europe and have looked different types of people in the face, acknowledge our differences and still
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The problem with religion is that it is practiced by imperfect people
No, that is not the problem with religion. The problem with religion is that it's based on the existence of a supernatural being that cannot be argued with or disagreed with. This leads weak-minded people into fundamentalist stances.
Back when the most up-to-date weapons were swords or rocks, religion did not pose a serous threat to civilization. Now that people can get their hands on highly-destructive weapons, religion is simply to
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BTW, in this sense, political orientations can qualify as "religion".
Hey, man, you dropped this. I noticed it on the ground because of how bright and out-of-place it was; I didn't know they still made shoehorns like that anymore.
Is it the kind with teeth? Because you know there's no such thing.
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Depends on how religion is applied. The victims of Islamic terrorism are virtually all other muslims (or people who happen to born to a country predominantly muslim), who wish nothing more than to live at peace.
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In the specific case of Westgate, though, the Islamic terrorists specifically targeted non-Muslims. This has been widely reported.
Just in time (Score:2)
Because of course they uncovered this by spying on citizens, so they really should be able to keep spying on everyone.
Just think of the malls.
More info (Score:5, Interesting)
This was a somewhat more exciting series of arrests than usual.
Police shoot at car in suspected terror raids [telegraph.co.uk]
Armed police shot at the tyres of a car to stop two suspected terrorists during a dramatic series of raids to foil an alleged plot to attack the UK.
Officers fired special Hatton rounds – large shotgun ammunition designed to burst tyres or breach doors – to force the vehicle over in east London on Sunday evening. Witnesses also reported seeing police ram the back of the car before it was finally brought to a halt while a helicopter hovered overhead. In simultaneous arrests, armed officers swooped on a man in the street in west London while a fourth man was arrested at a flat south east of the city. A large number of armed officers were used because it was feared the men had access to weapons and were planning a suspected Islamist terror attack, the Daily Telegraph understands.
The head of MI5 is concerned [independent.co.uk] about the diminishing margin of advantage they have to detect such things in the face of a continuing threat.
Speaking at the Royal United Services Institute in London, Mr Parker pointed out the statistics of the threat from terrorism faced by the UK. The “plain facts”, he said, were that “from 11 September 2001 to the end of March this year, 330 people were convicted of terrorism related- offences in Britain In the first few months of this year, there were four major trials related to terrorist plots. Since 2000, we have seen serious major acts of terrorism in this country typically once or twice a year.”
Re:More info (Score:5, Interesting)
Since 2000, we have seen serious major acts of terrorism in this country typically once or twice a year.â
Really? I don't recall one or two major acts of terrorism a year since 2000. In fact I only recall one (7/7), and maybe you could count the bungled attempt to bomb an airport but those guys were laughably dumb. So what are the other 20 odd major acts of terrorism that I somehow slept through?
Re:More info (Score:5, Informative)
Since 2000, we have seen serious major acts of terrorism in this country typically once or twice a year.â
Really? I don't recall one or two major acts of terrorism a year since 2000. In fact I only recall one (7/7), and maybe you could count the bungled attempt to bomb an airport but those guys were laughably dumb. So what are the other 20 odd major acts of terrorism that I somehow slept through?
( Note to moderators: The question was asked, I'm answering it. )
Here is a starter for you. I'm quite sure there are more out there since this was just a hasty search. When I started this post I was assuming that plots would count as "acts," but it looks like the number goes well over anyway between the various Islamists and the Real IRA. (As this was done in haste I may have posted something redundant, but it really doesn't alter the outcome much. A more careful search would no doubt turn up more.)
Bomb plot: Life sentence for Irfan Naseer, ringleader of Birmingham men planning wave of UK suicide attacks [independent.co.uk]
London terror bomb plot: the four terrorists [telegraph.co.uk]
Four men pleaded guilty to plotting a Christmas bomb attack on the London Stock Exchange and causing a 'Mumbai-style' atrocity.
Fertiliser bomb plot: The story [bbc.co.uk]
Five men have been convicted of plotting to build a bomb which police say could have killed hundreds of British people. The men were caught after police and MI5 launched a massive surveillance operation.
British terrorists conspired in bombs plot - security officials [theguardian.com]
Counter-terrorism officials said last night they believe British terrorists who are still at large were involved in the conspiracy to launch car bomb attacks on London and Glasgow.
Details emerged as it became clear that five of the suspects under arrest are doctors working and training in the NHS, and one is a doctor working in Australia where he was arrested last night.
Airline terror trial: The bomb plot to kill 10,000 people [telegraph.co.uk]
On honeymoon in the sunshine, Britons who forged a terror plot to plant peroxide and bleach bombs in Jewish areas [dailymail.co.uk]
Shasta Khan and her husband also had beheading videos, bomb-making guides and bleach at their home
Police found the terror-related material after being called to a domestic dispute at their house
A satnav showed they had been on multiple trips to Jewish populated areas looking for targets
British soldier hacked to death in suspected Islamist attack [reuters.com]
A British soldier was hacked to death by two men shouting Islamic slogans in a south London street on Wednesday, in what the government said appeared to be a terrorist attack.
A dramatic clip filmed by an onlooker just minutes after the killing showed a man with hands covered in blood, brandishing a bloodied meat cleaver and a knife. "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day," the black man in his 20s or 30s, wearing a wool jacket and jeans
and... (Score:2)
First, the term "terrorist" and "terrorism" have become labels for anything a Government does not like. If you believe in the 2nd amendment, display Libertarian bumper stickers or T-Shirts, are not registered Democrat or Republican, stock more than a week worth of food, or display anti-government literature (Think 15 year old's posting on Facebook as much as the rare member of a Jihad), you are a potential terrorist..
These are US definitions, but the UK is not very different. Look at the recent detention
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So you see no difference between a planned massacre and that nonsense? No difference between mass murder and pamphleteering?
Security Theatre (Score:2)
Between Cameron's insistence upon an approach that sounds an awful lot like a police state and the fact that this attack was "not imminent," you'll have to pardon me for speculating that this is a new episode of the hit sitcom "Security Theatre." After the pilot episode "TSA at the Airport," they've moved through a few seasons of bland, uninspired episodes, followed by their made-for-TV movie "PRISM" and now what appears to have been an action-packed feature film, "These Guys Might Have Roots in the Middle
Firearms unit (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing I'm actually rather impressed with. Rather than running around with guns all the time, apparently the BP have a special unit to deal with cases where they're warranted. Certainly it's a different culture than N. America in that regard.
Re:Firearms unit (Score:5, Informative)
That's because in the US, most potentially violent criminals carry guns. Thus police have to assume every potentially violent criminal is carrying a gun until searched proven otherwise, or else place their own lives in danger - if an offender is reaching into his pocket, there's no time to calmly try to talk him down. In the UK, guns are quite rare even to hardened criminals due to the difficulty obtaining them. For our street thugs, knives are the weapon of choice. So our police can be a bit less cautious.
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Not to mention the perpetrator-victim relationship, in the UK and most of Europe a knife is enough. Depending on where you are in the US if you tried to rob anyone with a knife chances are you'd get the wallet while you're up close then get held or shot at gunpoint as you're trying to get away. If you have to assume your victim might have a gun (legally or illegally) the only "safe" way to rob them is to control them at gunpoint from start to finish. As I understand it guns are not that terribly hard to acq
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It's also due to the militarization of US police. They view any non-police as the "enemy." They believe themselves to be different and special (note the use of the term "operator" by SWAT units, as if they have any resemblance to a military operator).
SWAT units justify their existence mostly through raiding locations where there is no expectation of a violent response. They also routinely discharge their weapons when there is absolutely no cause, because they're amped up on their own exaggerated expectation
We don't bother with sidearms, we use BIG GUNS (Score:5, Interesting)
Quite.
It's a big mistake to think that the British police are unarmed. They're not.
They just don't bother with piddling little pistols.
If you're going to have a gun, have a BIG GUN.
Other than for plain-clothed detectives working undercover, pistols are pretty much laughed at by the British police. Compare the stopping power of a weeny little Colt or a Glock to that of an MP5 sub-machine gun, G36 assault rifle or (God help you if you see one of these - strongly suggest you change your plans for that day) an SA-80 or AR-15 assault rifle.
Although British police don't routinely carry sidearms, in high crime urban areas they will carry SMGs or assault rifles in a locked gun cabinet in the boot (trunk) of their car. In extremely difficult or vulnerable areas such as airports or tourist hotspots, they will carry MP5s around, mixing in with the crowd. The bobbies carrying MP5s are very nice blokes, feel free to strike up a conversation with them. Just back off the ones carrying SA-80s and AR-15s, there's a good chap.
Our largest island is only 700 miles long. Where on earth are you going to run to, that a radioed-ahead armed response unit can't get to first?
I can fully understand why lots of larger countries have routinely armed police - calling for backup could take hours. But it's extremely difficult to outrun the police radio on an island only 700 miles long with a heavily-armed SMG & assault rifle unit every 25 miles or so, and CCTV at every trunk road junction (interstate intersection).
(The police at Birmingham Airport used to have those truly lovely-looking P90 bullpup rifles for manoeuvrability in corridors & aeroplanes; from my recent visit it looks like they've swapped over to MP5s - a shame as the bullpups just looked like a wonderfully practical bit of design. I once saw West Midlands Police using one of those wacky Steyr Augs - again, lovely design - but seem to have standardised now on SA-80s and AR-15s. There seems to be a lot more standardisation across the various regional firearms units these days. Probably very practical from a co-ordinated response point of view, but a lot less showy from a nerd point of view.)
Re:We don't bother with sidearms, we use BIG GUNS (Score:4, Informative)
AR-15 assault rifle.
AR-15 is semi-automatic, so by definition it is not an assault rifle.
M-16, the military variant, has the select fire feature. M-16 is an assault rifle.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled gun bickering.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: We don't bother with sidearms, we use BIG GUNS (Score:2)
It's more that an MP5 is standard issue for ordinary day-to-day duties by regular friendly bobbies on the beat, whereas an SA-80 or AR-15 indicates a specialist firearms officer who is only called in for extremely serious "incidents".
MP5 = friendly
SA-80 || AR-15 = Bugger off before you get caught in the crossfire
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"Colt then started selling the semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle as the Colt AR-15 for civilian sales in 1963 and the term has been used to refer to
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Just back off the ones carrying SA-80s and AR-15s, there's a good chap.
Anyone, police or otherwise, who is responsible for maintenance of an SA-80 is likely to be in a bad mood...
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a shame as the bullpups just looked like a wonderfully practical bit of design
Poor sight radius [wikia.com].
Bullshit (Score:3, Interesting)
This story keeps on growing. In the British press this morning it was claimed that the men fought in Syria and that they have access to weapons in the UK. That was it.
Now the international press reports that the men were planning an atrocity.
However, the police have found no guns or, in fact, any evidence of any crime. They would certainly be crowing about it if they had.
This is such a non-story the BBC aren't bothering to report it.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
This is such a non-story the BBC aren't bothering to report it.
False.
Terror raid: Police continue to quiz London suspects [bbc.co.uk]
Terror raid: London suspects questioned [bbc.co.uk]
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>However, the police have found no guns or, in fact, any evidence of any crime. They would certainly be crowing about it if they had.
This is such a non-story the BBC aren't bothering to report it.
British police tend to say very little, to avoid being accused of prejudicing a future trial. The arrests were Sunday evening, and the suspects can be help up to 48 hours before being charged or released.* There isn't really much to add to the story until then; expect a further statement in a few hours. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24530867 [bbc.co.uk]
*Although they could apply for a magistrate for an extension, in terrorism cases.
Comparison (Score:5, Interesting)
USAian approach to fighting terrorism: Let's have a trillion dollar war on some random country. That'll show em. Nobody will mess with us afterwards. Oh, and let's spend a fortune in tax dollars on an elaborate security theatre in all airports so that we turn air travel into an ordeal. Let's also hire goons to intimidate anyone who wants to enter the country as a tourist, especially if their skin is dark or if there's any stamps in their passports that show they've been to muslim countries. And let's spend more than then next half dozen countries combined on super-duper high tech weapons even if our own armed forces are telling us they don't want them.
British approach to fighting terrorism: Keep plugging away behind the scenes. Use the intelligence agencies to infiltrate terror groups and arrest them before they can strike. Keep it discreet, keep it quiet, and don't announce anything publicly until there's been an arrest. Meanwhile, let life go on as normal, keep going to work, keep on flying, keep shopping in busy streets, keep commuting on crowded trains and buses, and on no account do we change our way of life in search of an impossible-to-obtain standard of security because to do so would be to let the terrorists win.
I wonder which one is more effective.
So, the NSA has is right? (Score:3)
" Keep plugging away behind the scenes. Use the intelligence agencies to infiltrate terror groups and arrest them before they can strike. Keep it discreet, keep it quiet, and don't announce anything publicly until there's been an arrest."
Oh, and you were doing so well right up to this point. Despite all the saber rattling the US does, the underpinning of the entire country's response is, infact, intelligence. Up until Snowden, we did keep it all quiet and discreet. Thing is, nobody actually seems to be in f
Let's hope (Score:2)
" pre-planned, intelligence-led raids..."
We citizens would be glad if _all_ raids were pre-planned, intelligence-led raids.
Unplanned, dumb raids at the wrong address are just not funny.
Dubious (Score:3)
A simple example would be that I know 2 guys who have long been planning the perfect kidnapping. Not that they ever would kidnap anyone it is just a thought experiment in that doing the exchange would be fantastically difficult. But if you were to have a wiretap of any of their conversations you would think that they were two sociopathic nasties just days away from the snatching someone. Seeing that they have been having the same discussion for over 20 years it might be the slowest conspiracy in history. Seeing that the context of the conversation was set 20 years ago then any conversation since does not need to begin with "hypothetically" if anything their conversations would be something more along the lines of the exacting details of the use of helicopters, spaceships, submarines or whatever has recently popped into either of their heads. The worst is that if someone from a security service were to join into their debate(with the goal of an arrest) they would probably even accept the use of say a helicopter or whatever to stage some scenario that they were debating. But again neither of these two would ever even think about actually doing a crime so horrible. But a series of recordings played to the jury would be pretty damning.
Re:British police rarely carry weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect they would have a lot less problem with terrorists and ne'er-do-wells.
Nope, there'd simply be a lot more people getting shot.
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Nope, there'd simply be a lot more people getting shot.
That is very, very true. In US and Canada there is a perception that if police has guns, they only use it as a last resort. In many cases that is not that case.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/another-fatal-shooting-on-an-empty-toronto-bus-16-years-earlier/article13494159/ [theglobeandmail.com]
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I think you'd find that the ones who deserve it are mostly the ones with the guns. Everyone else is too busy thinking about getting on with their life to consider violent crime.
Re:British police rarely carry weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
Good call. We have hundreds of millions of guns here in the US and we have the lowest incarceration costs in the world... oh wait.
Well at least we never have armed gunmen attack public forums... crap, that's not quite it either.
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But honestly, your guns and your prison pollination have little to do with eachother. Your prisons are full because you have a very successful and profitable prison industry, and they are filled with people who were caught with a few grams of marijuana on them, not robbers, and killers.
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prison pollination
Is this another new euphemism?
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The war on drugs is only part of it. Mandatory sentencing extends beyond drug charges. Many gun violations have mandatory sentencing as well, which is in part because of the war on drugs and in part because of the proliferation of guns. Very few people are in jail due to a few grams of marijuana, that wouldn't be enough for intent to distribute. But yes, our prison industry has done very well for itself, that much is true regardless.
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No, the reason these chaps get caught so easily in the UK is because it's pretty much impossible to get your hands on a gun, let alone an assault rifle and enough ammo to carry out something like this.
If anyone wanted to do this in the US, their steps would involve "getting a gun" and "shooting people". Neither of which is a particularly challenging task and, in case you've not been watching the news recently, is something so simple that children can do it, and they frequently do.
"Humm, guns keep killing p
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Interestingly, there are some guns that are legal to own in the UK, that are illegal in the US. The chances of getting a license for them is very low, though.
Also, it's not that difficult to get a gun in the UK... you've just got to know the right people.
Re:British police rarely carry weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
Really for most of my lifetime the terrorist problem in the United Kingdom was expatiated by the U.S.A. harbouring convicted terrorists and refusing to extradite them back to the U.K. while all the time allowing said terrorist groups to raise money. In that respect 9/11 was a huge boon because all of a sudden the U.S.A. realized that it could no longer support such terrorist activities.
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Really for most of my lifetime the terrorist problem in the United Kingdom was expatiated by the U.S.A. harbouring convicted terrorists and refusing to extradite them back to the U.K. while all the time allowing said terrorist groups to raise money.
No, there were cases that showed the same problem handing the IRA then as handling al Qaida today. The administration wanted to hand them over, but a court blocked it in much the same way as the courts have intervened in various aspects of the fight against al Qaida.
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The thing about the right to bear arms is that non-criminals exercising it encourages criminals to acquire firearms too.
In the US, criminals arm themselves in order to protect themselves. If you know the owner of the house you're breaking into may well have a firearm, then you are far more likely to carry one yourself. If not, why burden yourself with one? Particularly if - as in the UK - it will result in a more severe sentence if you are caught.
A gun is not much use for most crimes - even robbery can be
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No, firearms are not illegal in the UK - that's a common misconception.. Some specific types of firearms are illegal (e.g. handguns), the rest require the owner to hold a firearms licence.
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Also, shotgun licenses are pretty easy to get, if you live in a rural area. I'd guess I'd be able to get one, despite my criminal record. Lots of farmers have them.
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Brains aren't illegal in the US. We simply find them unnecessary for day to day life, and often find they they are unnecessary for anything else.
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The point of conducting investigations and arrests is to prevent an attack. Experience shows that doing police work that way results in many fewer people having their civil rights violated by high velocity lead pellets or bomb fragments which render them dead. So, something did in fact happen: investigation showed a plot in the works and arrests were made.
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Clearly you have more confidence in the veracity of what we are told by governments than I do.
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You do understand that your assumptions are deeply flawed, right? The problem is that there is no way to distinguish the scenario you describe from witch-hunts, finding scapegoats, etc. Also, your "experience show" is not in line with reality: What experience actually shows is that it is easy charging people with serious crimes that were disgruntled and maybe even thinking about some attacks but had no chance in hell to make them work. Or that were fantasizing about it and would never have gotten to actual
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When everyone is dead then it's quite peaceful.