Bell Canada To Collect User Data For Advertising 127
beerdragoon writes "One of Canada's biggest mobile and TV providers will soon begin collecting detailed information on usage patterns of its subscribers. Starting November 16th, Bell plans on using this information to provide targeted ads for subscribers. According to Bell this policy will allow customers 'to receive Internet advertising that's relevant to them rather than the random online advertising they're receiving now.' Customers have until the 16th to opt out of the targeted ads, but there doesn't appear to be a way to opt out of the data collection. Apparently this is not illegal, but it is certainly considered unethical by many."
If you don't like it (Score:1, Funny)
then start your own ISP.
Wait, does Canada have Republicans?
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Barriers to entry, do you understand it?
Nope, he's a mexican.
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Unfortunately they more or less have a government backed monopoly on the infrastructure.
Dunno how this will effect the competitors which more or less are resellers.
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Bull,
I have been with smaller ISP's in ontario for 20+ years now, I agree that all the data goes through their pipes, but multi day service outages haven't ever happened to me or anyone I know. Actually Bell / Rogers has 24 hours to fix it once it's gone up from the ISP and they usually do quicker than that.
I am with ViaNet out of Sudbury, I live in Oshawa (a long distance away) and the only service interruptions I have ever had at 3 business locations and my house have been because I am a moron and forgot
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For TekSavvy, with Cable, they have to send an email to Rogers when something needs fixing. Then there's a full day for them to respond to that email. Sometimes it gets fixed with that first email, but sometimes it doesn't. The only communication channel between the tw
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Re:If you don't like it (Score:4, Informative)
Actually Bell / Rogers has 24 hours to fix it once it's gone up from the ISP and they usually do quicker than that.
Actually according to the TPIA agreements that most of the other ISP's have it's 48 hours, in fact it got so bad not all that long ago that the delays for repairs from Tek to Rogers were in the 7 day range. CNOC has recently filed with the CRTC to fix the TPIA issues and issues to repair, as well as long ticket repair delays. And this is happening across the spectrum, not just with Tek, or Velcom, or Start, but everyone DSL and cable, and getting screwed over.
If you're Canadian, you should write a letter to the CRTC. Information on it can be found here. [dslreports.com]
Myself, I've been with Tek back in Ontario for 3 years. I had one two day outage thanks to rogers breaking the routing tables, while doing a node update. Tek gave me the two days back discounted, I'm out in Alberta until December doing a deployment for a small town and the only thing I can get here is LTE for internet, because Telus refuses to upgrade the number of ports available. As a fun point, that's been on-going for 4 years, if you move in this city--you can't move your DSL with you either.
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Except when it runs through the infrastructure for Telus, Shaw, NorthWestTel, SaskTel, the fibre ISPs on the West Coast, CableTron (I think, whatever it is that Quebec has), the maritimes telcos, etc. There's a hell of a lot more to the telecommunications industry in Canada than just Bell and Rogers. That may be all you poor saps in Ontaria have; but there's more to Canada than just Ontario (as much as you may
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Except when it runs through the infrastructure for Telus, Shaw, NorthWestTel, SaskTel, the fibre ISPs on the West Coast, CableTron (I think, whatever it is that Quebec has), the maritimes telcos, etc.
There's a hell of a lot more to the telecommunications industry in Canada than just Bell and Rogers. That may be all you poor saps in Ontaria have; but there's more to Canada than just Ontario (as much as you may not like to think so).
In Atlantic Canada we used to have our own telcos. eg: MT&T, NBTel, etc. They all merged into Aliant. Aliant became BELLaliant. Aliant used to operate it's own mobility service, even though it had close ties, and roamed for free on Bellus network. Now BELLaliant operates landline services somewhat independently of Bell, mobility is all through Bell.
Though for Cable, and least in some provinces/ areas we have Eastlink instead of Robbers.
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I've had a TekSavvy DSL line for 6 or 7 years now and in that time I've had two outages and one performance issue. The outages were resolved in under 6 hours and the performance issue in about 12 hours.
Their support people really know what they're talking about and although they follow a script, like any call centre, they actually understand and don't just read from it. And even though they don't officially support Linux they also don't run they other way when you mention it.
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We have the conservative party. They are a right wing political party roughly equivalent to the Democrats.
We have a parliamentary democracy. In a majority government situation, they are generally every bit as autocratic as any theocracy or rule by any royal house.
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Not only that but with multiple political parties the Conservatives got their majority with 38% of the people who bothered to vote. Tyranny of the minority is what we have here.
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More authoritarian then the Democrats.
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Worse. We have a "Harper". And we actually elected him to be in charge.
The Land Of The Negative Option (Score:3)
Canadian telecom carriers have used the negative option for decades, been scolded by consumer groups and regulators almost every time, yet keep coming back with the old "we're going to go ahead and do this to you unless you say no, and by the way you can pick up the NO form by... um... we're not sure where it is..."
Re:The Land Of The Negative Option (Score:5, Informative)
You can't opt out of the monitoring and profiling.
You can only opt out of ad delivery.
Yes, it's that evil.
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Whether computers estimate you're 40% likely to be interested in Depends and 0% interested in Pampers or vice-versa is a tiny evil compared to other monitoring we now know goes on.
I laugh at when we used to think advertising profiling by computer was our "big concern".
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Ad profiling is as stupid as Clippy. "Hey you have bought a new car, maybe you want to buy a new car!"
Re:The Land Of The Negative Option (Score:5, Funny)
In cellar with the lights out, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'?
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I remember way back when they (I think it was Rogers) doubled everybody's cable package and just started billing them for it. They got the crap kicked out of them for that one.
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The BC Legislature actually passed a bill that prohibits negative option billing when that happened. It's probably still in effect.
Can't opt out of data collection? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck.
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Bet you 5 bucks teksavvy won't. Another 5 that Rogers will try, and will inadvertently amuse many people in the process.
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Perhaps Teksavvy won't themselves, but knowing Bell, it would not surprise me to see them collecting data on their wholesale DSL lines that they lease to Teksavvy.
With all the BS they were pulling with capping the wholesale lines, it would actually be more of a surprise if they weren't... "Oh we had to install the monitoring appliances in our core. We just happen to monitor everyone now."
Bleh!
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From Marc of TSI. [dslreports.com]
we don't sell our customer data to anybody... I'm looking into what this is but it has nothing to do with us or our customers.
Official answer:
The underlying AUPs of the incumbents apply to the connections used to provide TekSavvy' services. This is so the incumbents can control network abuse and stop unlawful conduct relating to the use of the connection.
The incumbents retail terms of service however, that apply to their own end users, do not apply to the customers of TekSavvy.
The incumbents do not have the right to breach the privacy of retail customers of TekSavvy.
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Doesn't Teksavvy use PPPoE over Bell's lines? What's to stop them from implementing MPPE and encrypting their customer content? (a google search indicates that this question came up in 2007.)
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Doesn't Teksavvy use PPPoE over Bell's lines? What's to stop them from implementing MPPE and encrypting their customer content? (a google search indicates that this question came up in 2007.)
They use PPPoE but use their own server for handling authorization. What's stopping them from implementing MPPE? Probably Bell.
Canadians: Complain to the Privacy Comissioner (Score:5, Insightful)
I am drafting my complaint to the Privacy commissioner, and you should too. The commissioner has real teeth and Bell will definately have to defend what they're doing. As a regulated utility they do not have right to unilaterally foist this upon people. It's repugnant and evil.
http://www.priv.gc.ca/index_e.asp [priv.gc.ca]
The terms are really horrible. Also, the fine print says they're going to collect and use it anyway - you can opt out of the ads. I don't have Bell TV or Phone - just internet - so how, exactly, do they intend to serve me ads?
Get angry about this. The commisioner can't do anything without complaints. Give them some.
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Or engage in violence. Internet access shouldn't be a suicide pact.
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Well this explains all the ads for beaver on the internet.
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so how, exactly, do they intend to serve me ads?
Deep packet inspection + replacement of common ad providers like DoubleClick in third party websites?
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replacement of common ad providers like DoubleClick in third party websites
It's down on my list of things that piss me off about this, but how the hell is that fair to websites supporting themselves through advertising.
This whole thing should be illegal. I'm blown away that it's not, and am hoping this enrages enough people to get the process rolling on making it illegal.
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I was actually quite impressed with the push back against the 1996-level caps usage caps the CRTC tried a while back.
In that case we were talking direct cost to consumers though. Privacy it's a little more abstract and hard to get the average non-geek angry about. Then again, how many people have lets say "unique" web browsing habits (office stapler porn) that they may not want driving ads their wife/kids/friends using their wifi/etc would see. That's probably the cheat code right there.
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Tell you what, we'll take our apathy and greed and environmental destruction and you can have Quebec.
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Tell you what, we'll take our apathy and greed and environmental destruction and you can have Quebec.
I'd be happy to take Quebec. I like Quebec. Sure, they have nutjobs and corruption there, (as they do everywhere else), but at least they've declared a moratorium on poisoning people's wells for the sake of Big Oil. [www.cbc.ca]
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It would be almost like me rebroadcasting bells satelitte stations and then replacing their ads with my own, I would get sued 6 ways from Sunday.
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For the record, my parent comment was a theoretical way that they could serve these ads; it has no basis in any known Bell plans that I've read.
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Doesn't that blatantly violate the copyright of the websites who are serving that data?
Doesn't doubleclick have enough lawyers to blow Bell back to the stone age?
I specifically remember years ago, when someone tried to build a CLIENT SIDE application that allowed you and others to "comment on top of" a website as it was displayed in your browser, they got completely blown out of the water over this, because they were "defacing and modifying someone else's copyright'd content" -- and that wasn't even as clea
Re:Canadians: Complain to the Privacy Comissioner (Score:4, Informative)
I checked when I got the notice the other day. You can't opt out of the ads. You have two buttons you can click:
- I want Random ads
- I want target ads
There is no:
- I don't want ads
button.
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Damn trick questions.
Looks like they're already on it (Score:5, Informative)
According to CBC, the privacy commissioner is Already Starting an Investigation [www.cbc.ca]
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The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and eternal vigilance is expensive.
This needs go go beyond just overruling Bell's actions, there needs to be a serious penalty.
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As a dual citizen, I agree.
Privacy is in the Canadian Constitution, and Corporations aren't.
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http://support.bell.ca/billing-and-accounts/security_and_privacy/how_does_bell_respect_my_privacy?step=4 [support.bell.ca]
I like their response to the single question FAQ - Is my information shared?
- "No, under these new programs, we will not share any information that identifies you personally outside of Bell Canada and its affiliates."
Run this through the Corporate Speak Translator and you get:
- "Yes, we will share most of your data
Re:Then users will switch to their competitors... (Score:5, Informative)
What competitors? I switched from bell to teksavvy and 9 out of 10 people I know had no idea it even existed. Even after switching I'm still at the mercy of cogeco because they own the lines around here. When there is a service interruption cogeco, rogers and bell make sure that teksavvy customers are the last to get their service back.
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I can also list 3 distinct TSI advantages:
1) They are not Bell.
2) They are not Rogers.
3) They are not Telus.
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It's BELL MOBILITY, not BELL INTERNET.
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for now. Smartphone users are being used as beta-testers.
What's new? (Score:2)
Every other provider is looking around thinking "we've been doing this for years."
On the plus side (Score:2)
Now maybe I won't see as many erectile dysfunction, tampon, and reverse mortgage ads during pro sports.
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Well, at least not the reverse mortgage ads, anyways. Who'd want to reverse mortgage a cardboard box?
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That's the typical demographic of sports watchers.. but you forgot light beer.
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Any number of silent routers and switches could be mining data in the Bell/Rogers owned "last mile."
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TekSavvy leases more than just the last mile, they also lease the aggregation network. For users in eastern Canada, TekSavvy's entire network is constrained to a single building in downtown Toronto. As a Montreal TekSavvy user, my path to a server on the Internet goes through nothing but Bell hardware all the way until it hits 151 Front St. in Toronto, at which point it gets dumped into somebody else's network again (one of TSI's upstream providers).
Independent ISPs are not resellers, but to say that they'r
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Bell are a monopoly in all the small markets. You only have other options if you live in Montreal, Québec city, etc.
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Bell are a monopoly in all the small markets.
Yeah that's not true at all, people just can't be bothered to search. The city where I live in, in Ontario has ~35k people, I have 57 ISP's to choose from, the next nearest town has ~8k people, they have 70 ISP's to chose from. If I choose a major city like London, or K-W you can easily see 80-140 ISP's. The only places where Bell, Rogers, Telus, etc are a monopoly are in subdivisions where they're installing and forcing people into a contract term when they buy a new house. www.canadianisp.ca [canadianisp.ca] is a god
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35K people is still quite big, especially if you are near a huge city. Try a town of barely 10K people in the middle of nowhere (G9X).
Last time I checked with TekSaavy, their website said the service was available to my apartment but their sales department said that was a mistake. We really have a monopoly here, the only choices are Télébec or nothing.
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How about nowhere? Okay. T0E population ~4500, 10 ISP's.
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If your nowhere is near enough to a big center, of course you'll have 10 ISPs.
I just called all eight so-called choices that are supposed to be available to me, turns out that none offers service to my whole town despite their own websites saying otherwise. Télébec really has a monopoly on internet service.
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Early termination fees are a bitch.
Encrypt everything (Score:3)
Or switch to an ISP that does not insist on treating their customers like shit.
Cellular contracts (Score:1)
And how do you switch to another cellular provider without incurring penalties?
Actually, I'm wondering if this could be used as a basis for terminating contracts. I'd love to dump my provider (Virgin, a subsidiary of Bell) if I could due to this bullshit.
I've heard that when services are greatly changed the ability to terminate a contract is possible. Anyone know if this counts?
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Good luck. They will all do it soon. Or there are no other broadband services. One could go to dial-up, satellite, etc. :P
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Notable alternatives are TekSavvy (a hybrid business, not a pure reseller), start.ca, Wind Mobile, Moblicity... possibly some others like Primus and Distributel who I believe are pure resellers.
Adblock to the rescue (Score:2)
The best answer to that is to block their ads completely. And while you're at it all other annoying ads too.
Re:Adblock to the rescue (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm more concerned with whatever magic they are doing to get the list of websites I'm visiting. Be it transparent proxy of packet inspection, it seems totally over the line.
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Not directly, but is is making that datacollection more and more worthless since you're not viewing ads, personalized or not, anyway.
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Get TV OTA (Score:2)
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Been done before, and dropped (Score:4, Interesting)
Charter tried this in the US. It didn't last long. When someone's kids were targeted for ads based on dad's browsing things get ugly.
Hat Lady (Score:2)
Petition to opt-out all monitoring. (Score:1)
VPN (Score:2)
Good excuse... (Score:2)
I guess that Bell Canada (like many others) now feels entitled to spy on everybody.
This is why I switched to Teksavvy (Score:3)
This is why I switched to Teksavvy. I got fed up with the bullshit Rogers and Bell were pulling, a long time ago. I haven't regretted the decision.
Not only does Teksavvy not try to foist bullshit on their customers, but they actively fight for consumer rights.
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Unfortunately this is unavoidable because Bell owns the physical lines.
I actually have Teksavvy Cable, because at the time I switched, Bell was doing their "we will throttle everyone using our lines, even if you have a different ISP" idiocy.
Never underestimate bells greed (Score:2)
Dont care really (Score:1)
Lawful Intercept (Score:1)
Are they going to tap phones, too? (Score:2)
"In other news, Bell Canada has started tapping phone lines to improve advertising..."
Re:Bell Canada is owned by the Teachers Pension Fu (Score:4, Informative)
As for Teachers pension plan their holdings are now below $100MM (well, they dont show up on their reports for positions > 100MM http://www.otpp.com/investments/essentials/major-investments [otpp.com])
Perhaps you are thinking of the failed attempt to take them public years ago?
PS: I'm an "owner" of BCE as I've held a position for many years.
Nice conspiracy theory, next time spend a minute or two to validate.
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