60% of Americans Unaware of Looming Incandescent Bulb Phase Out 944
Lucas123 writes "Even though production of 75W and 100W incandescent lamps were phased out earlier this year, many U.S. consumers remain blissfully unaware of The Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007, an energy efficiency standard that requires an initial 30% reduction in energy use for screw-in bulbs. By 2020, the federal standard requires bulbs to use 65% less energy. According to a new survey, only 40% of Americans are aware that incandescent bulbs are being phased out. However, the federal regulations are about to impact the most popular bulbs of all — 40W and 60W lamps. As of Jan. 1, 2014, the bulbs will no longer be produced. A significant portion of those who are aware of the phase out have been hoarding the bulbs in anticipation of the ban."
Get rid of those things (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have a brain, you got rid of those fucking things more than 5 years ago.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope.
1) Large initial outlay on the energy saving bulbs;
2) When I factor in the cost of even one or two out of two dozen bulbs which go wrong early in their life, I'm not saving money;
3) All but the most expensive do not light up nearly as quickly as traditional;
4) Colour profile of almost all of them is not as nice as incandescent;
5) Disposal of a complex electronic device is more difficult.
Re:Congratulations! (Score:5, Insightful)
Good grief. Turn off some lights when you're not using them man! Your drop in price for changing bulbs more than doubles my total monthly electric bill.
Of course, the fact that people who do not pay so much for electricity will not make the money back so quickly might suggest why some do not upgrade so quickly. Different circumstances result in different calculations. (I note this even though I myself moved away from incandescents years ago.)
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a brain, you got rid of those fucking things more than 5 years ago.
It would be a pretty stupid thing to buy and expensive LED or other bulb to put in a crawlspace, or attic, or even a closet. Payback will never happen. Not enough energy used to make a difference either.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Informative)
Yup. And you can continue to get industrial incandescents for this application even after the ban.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Informative)
100 watt rough service light bulbs are $1.96/pair at 1000bulbs.com. Brutal.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Insightful)
If you have a brain, you got rid of those fucking things more than 5 years ago.
It would be a pretty stupid thing to buy and expensive LED or other bulb to put in a crawlspace, or attic, or even a closet. Payback will never happen. Not enough energy used to make a difference either.
I am not an Electrician, but I'm pretty sure that you aren't supposed to use incandescent lights in a closet because of the fire risk involved. An attic or crawlspace, which will have exposed insulation and other combustibles that aren't behind a firewall (Drywall) like the other parts of your home, probably shouldn't have those in there either. It produces a very real and tangible safety issue. House fires started in concealed places are the worst as you can be in your home and not notice until it's too late.
While you use these for a short amount of time, it is easy to leave one on. Just spend the $5-$25 for the remote possibility of saving a $100,000 - $1,000,000 structure.
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Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Interesting)
If you have a brain, you got rid of those fucking things more than 5 years ago.
Notice how it's not suggested the reason 60% of people are "blissfully unaware" of this phase-out is because they stopped using incandescent bulbs already and don't care.
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Its just the up front cost that can suck for people, considering the long term savings and the how much money that can be saved buying them in bulk, I am suprised a local/regional/state/country government doesn't just force the issue and issue a "Incandescent for LED trade scheme".
Country uses less power, poor people don't suffer (thats where the up front cost can hurt) and no one can complain that I can think off.
I'm in the process of switching my house to LED, but some rooms simply never have their lights
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considering the long term savings and the how much money that can be saved buying them in bulk, I am suprised a local/regional/state/country government doesn't just force the issue and issue a "Incandescent for LED trade scheme"
We have that here in Victoria, Australia. Our state government pays private operators to go from door to door swapping incandescent globes for CFLs, and installing power saving (switched) power boards. Its all free for the consumer but regulating the contractors has become an issue. We tend to get multiple groups coming to the house, and signing off on their check list without actually checking that we haven't had our stuff changed over yet.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Informative)
Consider a bulb that is used no more than twice a week for only 3 minutes each time. How long does it take to break even on the increased purchase cost of a CFL or LED over a standard 40W bulb?
Incandescents are still a better option for a number of applications.
faint praise (Score:5, Insightful)
> LEDs also have better color rendition capability than CFLs.
It would be hard not to.
To some people having a nice warm spectrum from a bulb doesn't matter to them. But to others, inhabiting in a space lit by these new bulbs is like living in a morgue. Where I live it is dark 16 hours a day this time of year and usually overcast during the daytime. To me, the increased energy cost is worth it to live in a space that doesn't make me want to jump out the nearest window in despair. I am glad halogen bulbs will still be available because they are the only acceptable option right now.
Re:faint praise (Score:4)
Depends on the color temperature. Some LED bulbs are higher on the scale, and give that bluish look. Others tend to be warmer and are good enough to not be discerned from incandescent bulbs unless compared side by side.
I've pulled every incandescent in my place and replaced with LED bulbs that are "warm white". Not because they save that much more than CFL, but because of life and the fact that if dropped, it is less of a disaster than dropping either an incandescent or CFL.
Of course, incandescents have their place. Nobody has yet created a 40 watt LED heat lamp to keep a compartment in a camper above freezing yet, while an old filament bulb does this job quite well.
Re: (Score:3)
Most of my house lamps take 3 bulbs. Some of them I have an LED, a CFL, and an incandescent, on the theory that together they'll produce a broader spectrum than any of them alone. Also, some of the dimmers had problems with buzzing with multiple LEDs, but didn't buzz with one LED and two CFLs. I like diversity.
Re:faint praise for the Bulb Mafia (Score:4, Informative)
If you want a yellow CFL or LED, you can buy one. They're labeled with color temperature nowadays; just buy the color temp you prefer. 6500K or "daylight" gives you essentially white light (which indoors often perceptually comes across as blue-ish or harsh), lower color temps give progressively more yellow colors. About 2700K or so, also marketed as "warm white" or "soft white", will give roughly the same yellowish color as an incandescent.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:5, Informative)
I bought 96 bulbs for $75. a lifetime supply for me. I have changed exactly 6 bulbs in my bathroom and two in my storage area in 7 years.
I live in a cold country. I don't care about a trivial power cost. I need the heat. Doesn't matter if it comes from a bulb or natural gas. Shit, I heat with computers sometimes!
This whole bulb fiasco is a money grab and to bail out dumb governments who didn't plan for electrical growth.
My province added 150 windmills this year and will add 300 in the coming two years. We have wind, coal and natural gas. Changing a few light bulbs will make very little difference here.
You can pry my incandescents from my cold dead hands!
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The problem is that while you individually don't care about the cost there are 100 million other guys in your country with the same attitude. That equates to quite a few extra power stations your country needs to run to keep the lights on.
It's not even clear what your objection to led bulbs is. Okay, maybe the only last 5 years for you, but they are still cheaper. Color is as good or better, and you have a choice for different situations. They come on instantly. They are robust. What exactly are you objecti
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We have power and lots of it here. I'm not going to pay 20 bucks a bulb for the next big thing so some tree hugger can feel good about themselves. I've changed less than 10 bulbs in a decade here. That's 7.80 at current prices. Don't give a shit about changing to some other bullshit new light. I tried the last "craze" to cfl bulbs and was really pissed off when I found out about the mercury. I like the light the incandescents give
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Yea um being a person recently effected by the blackout in the mid west. An Incandescent Bulb kept my generator from dieing cause the air was so cold the carburetor was freezing up. Had a drop light under the carburetor to keep it warm and running.
Right, because incandescents are the only source of heat known to man.
Use heat tape next time - a drop of water won't shatter the bulb and leave you without a generator.
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Use heat tape next time - a drop of water won't shatter the bulb and leave you without a generator.
I also wonder about the whole heat thing - We run snowblowers, generators, and more just fine even in the dead of winter here in Alaska. I doubt the midwest gets that cold.
But yeah, a bit of heat tape would do the same thing. Or just get the carb fixed.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Different LEDs have different properties. We have bought numerous different varieties. Some of them dim really well; some of them dim poorly. You get what you pay for. The new Cree bulbs are the best so far. The big thing is that dimming them doesn't make them warmer, which we're used to because that's how incandescents behave. Some lights actually fake the color temperature shift, but that's an expensive extra feature, not standard.
Re:Get rid of those things (Score:5, Insightful)
You're better off heating with a heat pump—it's about three times more efficient than resistive heat, which is what you get out of a light bulb. Of course, if all you have is resistive heat, you're right that it makes no difference, but people who live in cold climates typically don't use resistive heat because it's so bloody expensive. We use oil, or gas, or heat pump, or wood, or some combination of these.
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Heat pumps aren't a panacea. They break. They're hard to fix. It seems the residential class ones are often constructed poorly. Several friends have them. When they work, they're great. Except all of them have crapped out at one point or another. One non warranty repair goes a long way to offsetting any power costs.
As always, it's Total Cost of Ownership.
Re: (Score:3)
Everything breaks. Everything is hard to fix. If you're a glass-half-empty sort of person, anyway. I've lived in three houses with heat pumps, and never had one fail. They are in wide use, and are considered quite reliable. I expect that as the heat pump in the house we live in ages, at some point it will in fact fail. If we're lucky, it'll be in the summer. Otherwise, it'll need a repair. That's life with appliances. Resistive heaters fail too, but because they're individual units you're
Heat pumps (Score:3)
Heat pumps have one serious problem. When it gets cold, your house needs more heat and the amount of heat that a heat pump can deliver goes down. Almost every heat pump installation uses resistive auxiallary heat to make up the diffrerence. You are usually better off using a little extra heat from either a small electric space heater or light bulbs in the rooms you occupy to bring them to a comfortable temperature than using the heat pump to heat the entire house to a constant temperuture.
Re:please explain. (Score:4, Informative)
Pure physics-wise, you are correct. Heating the same volume the same amount requires the same amount of heat energy. The difference is the source of the heat energy.
A resistive heater produces the heat by consuming electrical power only, 3400 BTU/hr generated heat requires a bit over 4.2A of 220V electricity to flow through the resistive element. (specs from a Radiant Cove heater unit)
A quick intro to the refrigeration cycle can be found here https://www.swtc.edu/ag_power/air_conditioning/lecture/basic_cycle.htm [swtc.edu].
A heat pump is the same as an air conditioner or fridge, just installed with the condensor inside the building and the evaporator outside. The primary heat source is the outside air and the only power is that needed to power the compressor unit to move the working fluid through the cycle. The smallest Fujitsu unit generates 11000 BTU/hr using 3.7A at 220V.
Basically the answer is the same amount of energy is needed for the same heating, but the heat pump uses a different source and an efficient process to produce the heat than a resistive load does.
If it bother you that much (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If it bother you that much (Score:5, Informative)
You obviously dont live in an area with less than perfect power delivery.
Where I am is not bad, but still just far enough from perfect that those new 'long life' bulbs do not last any longer than incandescents. They just cost 20 times as much, they arent as bright, and they are inferior in absolutely every way.
Rich idiots in privileged settings come up with this crap and force it down the throats of the rest of us, and no offense but you sure sound like part of the problem. Just because you dont need something does not give you license to outlaw it and screw with the rest of us like that. If you dont think incandescent bulbs are a good value for you then dont buy them, but preventing those of us that do need them from obtaining them is just meanness.
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Rich idiots in privileged settings, my foot. Power delivery in India is truly horrible. Yet everyone in India has florescent lamps. They prefer it because it is brighter, is a more natural light than incandescent, is cheaper in the long run and lasts longer. Seeing the prevalence of incandescents in the US was one of my WTF moments, when I first came over.
yeah, it's a conspiracy against you (Score:4, Insightful)
Rich idiots in privileged settings come up with this crap and force it down the throats of the rest of us,
Nothing like a bit of ad hominem in the morning. Yeah, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 1:4 efficiency difference and is a conspiracy by rich people to cram "crap" down the throats of us "common", good, hard-workin' innocent folk.
The whole reason this has been legislated is that people refuse to buy compact fluorescent bulbs because they're stubborn and hate change. So they say "they give me headaches" and "they're not as bright" and so on. Even "they cost too much", after you've gone blue in the face showing them the VERY basic math that a 3rd grader could do, showing they pay themselves back within a year or two, AND practically give them away with rebates.
It's the "limousine liberal" concept (Score:3)
There is a political and cultural phenomenon in the US known as the "limousine liberal" -- otherwise well off people supporting agendas, often environmental ones, which have a a high financial cost which is trivial to them but expensive for other people.
Examples of this include pushing hybrid cars, organic and free range foods, and apparently light bulbs, too. There are other more political examples, like higher taxes to support social welfare programs or higher gas taxes.
None of this is to suggest that th
Re: (Score:3)
wrong i have dealt with led for years now they last for a very long time the problem with the 120v bulbs is the power converter that's what fails.
It doesn't matter if it's the power converter that's failing or the diode itself. LED bulbs are not made to be easily user-serviceable. The "bulb" is all the parts but together -- if the power converter fails the bulb has burnt out. And if they are failing at rates comparable to the lifespan of incandescent bulbs Arker's complaint is valid. As a consumer he is still paying a hefty premium for a product that is not living up to its lifespan claims.
Trying to cloud this with geeky tricks like soldering in high
Re:If it bother you that much (Score:4, Interesting)
Right. I'm going to keep the receipts of every blasted bulb I buy. Kudos to you if you are that organized - I can barely keep tabs on the big stuff. Even if I kept the receipt the hassle factor would likely kick in and the thing would sit in a box until springtime when the haz mat pickup occurs. Then it would get tossed in that box.
Manufacturers bank on that behavior. I'll bet it works out for them rather well.
Re: (Score:3)
As a consumer he is still paying a hefty premium for a product that is not living up to its lifespan claims.
So get a free replacement under warranty?
LOL.
CFL's have the same warranty on them. The catch is you have to ship the burnt-out bulb back to the manufacturer for them to study it to get a replacement -- the cost of shipping and handling to them being about what you paid for the bulb to start with.
So you can either make a warranty claim and be without a light for several weeks while they process the warranty claim and ship it to you, or just go buy another bulb -- there is no financial difference, but one way is clearly more convenient for the consu
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Great.. And how long will it take saving approximately $7.00 per bulb over the life of them to cover the costs of rewiring your house?
It's all good and everything that you can rewire your home or perhaps throw it away and build another, but many people are stuck with what was standard for well over 50 years. You don't really save any money in energy over the life of the bulbs in the first place and if you start rewiring houses in order to increase the life spans of the new bulbs, any imaginary savings proba
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Sure buddy, you go out and try to start climbing the power poles and fixing all the f-ups and see how far you get. I dont have the expertise to do that job, and even if I did, I dont have the money to replace all their equipment, and even if I did and didnt mind to spend it on that, it would be illegal anyway.
Yeah, real smart idea.
Re:If it bother you that much (Score:5, Informative)
The average incandescent bulb lasts about 1000 hours. Currently, the average cost per kilowatt hour is 12 cents in this country. So a 100 watt bulb run for 1000 hours costs about $1.20 in electricity. The bulbs cost about $0.57 each. An equivalent LED bulb costs $36 per, and consumes only 13% of the energy used by an incandescent. They say these will last approximately 50,000 hours.
Except your math is off by a factor of 10. 100 watt is 0.1 kW, times 1000 hours gives 100 kWh, which is $12 dollars of electricity not $1.20. That changes pretty much everything.
I agree about the toxic waste stuff, but if you're worried mostly about energy (and that's what policy mostly focuses on) then incandescents don't make sense.
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So when you go through 3+ bulk packs of CFL bulbs (8 bulbs each, with each bulb rated for almost a year of continual operation) in 6 months in a house with only about a dozen light fixtures that doesn't suggest something is up with the supposed service life? We do have an old farm house so I suppose it could be something with our electricity but even if that is the case it suggests that there are some situations where CFLs are simply not practical.
Re:If it bother you that much (Score:5)
While I'd like to switch over to more LEDs, every LED bulb I have purchased so far has had manufacturer instructions that they should NOT be mounted in an enclosed fixture (such as a ceiling dome). So what are the millions of people supposed to do when these fixtures, which basically only allow incandescents, have no suitable replacements? Same applies for certain types of recessed lighting - CFLs and LEDs are not allowed in some fixtures.
I stopped buying CFLs because in the winter they take forever to reach brightness (horrible for a bathroom) and they are a bigger environmental mess to dispose of than incandescents. LEDs have potential, but I don't understand the reasoning for a complete ban when the new technology is not a suitable replacement in 100% of use scenarios.
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It's a shame manufactures say that because it mostly isn't true. The issue is heat but if you use low wattage bulbs it won't be a problem. You can get some designed for recessed fittings but you are correct that something needs to be done. There is no technical issue, just a marketing/arse-covering one.
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All depends on the CFL that you buy. The better ones (mid-tier) generally come on at full brightness. Even in environments as cool as 15C.
The bigger issue with them in the bathroom setting is getting a good daylight color CFL so that everything doesn't look washed out and blue.
So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Even though production of 75W and 100W incandescent lamps were phased out earlier this year, many U.S. consumers remain blissfully unaware of The Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007
They will happily swap the burned out bulbs with whatever is available in the store and most of them wouldn't notice much difference. Couple will find that some of the stuff they bought does not work with dimmer switches or some bulbs tend to be a bit bulky and don't fit in certain very tight enclosures. All of those will be swapped for free back in the store with suitable replacements. So what's the point of preparing in advance for the switch or knowing about it?
Now, the people hoarding incandescent bulbs are a bit more puzzling. Some of them probably have a get-rich-quick plan kicking into action and all I can say is good for them. The ones that are actively trying to avoid switching away from incandescent bulbs are completely different story. WTF people? What's the point of massively inconveniencing yourself with the storage of fragile items only to pay higher electric bills.
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What's the point of massively inconveniencing yourself with the storage of fragile items only to pay higher electric bills.
I like the light produced by incandescent lightbulbs. Low color temperature (even lower on the long life incandescent bulbs), spectrum well approximates black body radiation and the bulb is a point source of light (a clear bulb anyway). Halogens are almost as good, but their color temperature is too high for me.
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You do realize that the colour spectrum of LEDs is a solved problem, right? And that there's more than one type of LED?
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There are many of us in situations where CFLs are not a viable alternative. I tried to switch to them, but they are not at all satisfactory. They are not as bright as they claim to be, and last nowhere near their rated lifetime. This is the experience of many people in my area, and I suspect many people all across the country who live outside of big cities in areas where the power company infrastructure is not completely up to modern standards. And that infrastructure is very unlikely to be upgraded for the
These new light devices... (Score:3, Funny)
They are designed to drain our precious bodily fluids.
60% of Americans are (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this surprising?
60% of Americans not keeping up with nation politics? Heck didn't 60% not even bother voting at some point? Don't 60% still think the world was made by an omnipotent being in 7 days?
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Unfortunately, lots of clueless people _do_ vote.
Incompatibility (Score:3)
At home the light switches have a dim blue light to be visible in the dark. It seems to be rigged in series with the circuit, so it lights up only when a lightbulb is in the socket. If fluorescent bulbs are installed, they (the bulbs!) will flicker all night long. Also the fluorescent bulbs installed in the bathroom die out very early from the moist. LEDs may be a good solution, but I've yet to find ones that give out enough red tones.
How will I heat my home now? (Score:5, Funny)
Incandescent technology is far superior to LEDs for electrothermal conversion efficiency. LEDs waste too much energy as visible light.
And I have a huge supply of 75W / 100W incadescent (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
I think the kid is probably just fine. You, on the other hand, seem to have bitten a mouthful off of the batshit crazy tree.
I still have and use incandescents (reminds me...need to get some bigger ones), but its mostly for quick start and overall light quality. They don't make 95+CRI CFLs and the last 95CRI LEDs I purchased were $30/ea for 10W (50W equiv) R20s. They're good (unbelievably good at full power, actually), but they do cast an odd light at low dimming, and there's an "on" limit of about 10% of th
100Watt Bulb Heat is Useful on Farm (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a beautiful example of too much government by idiots. What the city slicker politicians and neo-econazies don't understand is that the 100W bulbs are useful. I use them for the combination of heat and light they produce on our farm. They are lower power than the 250W bulbs and thus safer so they're less likely to cause a fire while still providing heat in a creep setting for baby chicks, ducklings and piglets.
In my home I all of my light bulbs are LED, because I want light. But in the sheds in the winter the heat of the incandescent bulbs is useful.
If you don't want to buy them then don't. But no need to outlaw them. The law is plain arrogance and fascism.
Re:100Watt Bulb Heat is Useful on Farm (Score:4, Insightful)
No, I don't run the lights in the warm months. No need for the light or the heat. An electric heater actually uses more electricity than a light bulb and is more dangerous. The chickens do better with the extra light that the bulb provides. Since you don't farm you don't understand the problems. Why do you feel the need to outlaw things that you don't understand. Just let other people make their own economic choices.
CFLs A Costly Mistake For This Condo (Score:5, Insightful)
I was president of a condo association for 5 years. I made the costly mistake of replacing all outside incandescent lights with CFLs:
- all CFLs, regardless of brand, failed within two years. Outdoors CFLs don't last as long as the cheapest incandescents, despite all caterwauling to the contrary. Please don't tell me about your special brand: I've tried it and it failed prematurely.Please don't tell me to return them to the store under the 3-year guarantee: if I did that all my time/gas would be spent driving to/from Home Depot/Lowe's/Light Store and changing bulbs.
- CFLs were frequently stolen. This was an unanticipated cost.
LEDs are even worse: thieves can spot an LED from 100 yards away and will stop at nothing to steal them (since they're so damn expensive). Great to spend $300 replacing a weatherproof floodlight receptacle and the electrical tubing because a thief tore it off an outside wall to get a $50 LED floodlight.
After 3 years I gave up and went back to incandescents, which we will use forever. Savings due to CFLs low electrical usage are not recovered when you include failure and theft in the equation. In fact, incandescents are cheaper even when you include the cost of the rugged models.
There are good reasons why incandescents have been used for so long. And, as others note, you can heat the chicken coop, keep pipes warm, and do other useful tasks with incandescents. CFLs were a political solution to a non-problem.
Wish they'd phased them out in reverse (Score:3)
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Insightful)
LEDs are cheaper. But some basic understanding of math and economics is required to see that. People that fail at that may get to conclusions such as yours.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Informative)
> LEDs are cheaper
Unless you're talking about outdoor light fixtures in Florida... where the atmosphere is maybe two or three steps less-corrosive than the atmosphere of Venus insofar as light bulbs with active electronics are concerned. LED and CFL bulbs in a porch light have a lifespan measured in MONTHS here.
It's not even the endless rain per se... it's the dew that condenses inside the bulb just about every night/morning. People who've never lived in South Florida just don't "get" how quickly and completely stuff here gets destroyed when it's left directly exposed to outdoor air, even in a sheltered location that doesn't get directly exposed to actual rain.
Re:cheaper only for rich people (Score:4, Insightful)
So if you're paying below market rates, you might as well use less efficient light bulbs? Sounds like a classic market failure. CFLs suck—don't waste your money. If you are poor, get halogen or cheap LEDs. If you can afford it, get more expensive LEDs. Volume will bring the price down.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Informative)
You have no clue. Neither of physics, basic math or economics. And you are completely unaware of that.
Electricity is by far the most expensive way to generate heat. The other thing is that LED costs something like 15-20% of a classical bulb over its lifetime. If you assume replacement of a classical bulb costs 5 minutes each time including shopping, the bulb costs $2 and keeps 1000h, and you can earn $5 per hour, then classical bulbs costs $240 over the lifetime of a comparable LED bulb. Accident risk on replacement not included. Energy savings not included. Pretty stupid to insist on historic technology under these conditions. But well, we have already established that you are stupid. Please feel free to disgrace yourself further.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the energy output of an incandescent is *not* light (about only 5% is light).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb [wikipedia.org]
So at present time in Montreal (-20C), my incandescent lighting is not wasting that much energy...
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Stupidity always has unpleasant consequences. The problem is not the individual manifestation of stupidity, but the stupidity itself. Your examples are pretty stupid. there are LED-based replacements even for the bulbs in an Easy Bake oven. Heating engines up with incandescent bulbs is extremely dangerous, don't do it. There are safer alternatives for that.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Insightful)
Nice try at being a smartass, but you fail it. It's not cheaper. The lightbulb costs much more, and once you replace a lightbulb that gives off 1000 lm of light and 100W of heating with a lightbulb that gives 1000 lm of light and 5W of heating you'll have to turn up heating by 95W. Or do liberals think that this energy comes from unicorns?
No, but a lot of liberals know the laws of thermodynamics, which essentially say that chemical and thermal energy go into one bin, and electrical and mechanical energy go into another. These two bins can not be compared directly the way you did in your conservative rant.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Insightful)
On average, to deliver that 95W of thermal energy to your house, about 175W of thermal energy is wasted up the cooling towers and smokestacks of the power station. This is due to the thermodynamic losses involved in converting heat energy to mechanical energy. (A few high-tech power stations are somewhat more efficient, but electricity is a fungible commodity that is freely traded, so it doesn't really help if you happen to live near one. And hydroelectric dams, which don't have these thermodynamic conversion losses, are nevertheless environmental disasters in their own right.)
In contrast, a modern gas furnace can waste as little as 5W out the vent to deliver that same 95W of thermal energy into your house.
Re:if you need heating, they're equivalent (Score:4, Informative)
They're not equivalent at all.
One reason the resistive heat costs 3X the gas heat is because they have to burn about 3X the amount of fuel to actually get the same amount of energy into your house via electrons. A heat pump takes advantage of thermodynamics to reverse that 3X penalty and achieve approximate parity with gas; someobdy who thinks that a light bulb is a good way to heat their house just pays the penalty. As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
We have been going through this phase out (Switzerland) and while I was using "neon" tubes and halogens I am switching to LED's. They are awesome. Low energy, last forever, very bright, and do not generate any heat. IMO LED's have come a very long way in a very short time.
Re:bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
It needs to be big not so much because of the amount of heat, but because the LEDs themselves are rather intolerant of excessive heat.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Informative)
Look up marine wiring [marineelectrical.org] and the American Boat and Yachting Council wiring regs. Annoying complex but very clear about how to string 12 - 24 volts around in difficult conditions. You will have to get used to a different color code and they've not heard of Anderson Power Poles (wonderful connectors) but applicable to land use as well.
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It depends on what you run on it. LEDs wouldn't require that much of a load. This isn't a server farm with racks for 1 kW servers, it's a house.
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My wife hates incandescents and LED are still too expensive.
I think you meant to say that your wife only likes incandescents, otherwise the incandescent ban won't affect you.
If she really wants to stick with incandescents, you could use energy efficient halogens that are still incandescents and are around 30% more efficient than traditional incandescents.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmm. 1000bulbs.com
A 60W equivalent LED bulb. $36 each.
A 60W equivalent CFL enclosed bulb. $12 each.
Hmm. Menards.com
A 60W Incandescent: $4 for a 4-pack.
Yeah. Sure. Cheap.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think you could have sourced a more expensive place for 60-watt replacements. I just bought a 4-pack of CFLs at Home Depot for under $4. And that's the good Phillips brand. The fancy GE enclosed CFLs with the starter halogen inside go for about $5. The Phillips 60W-equivalent LED is $10, with the Cree going for slightly more.
I'm not arguing that the phase out is a good thing, but let's be realistic about the price drops.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
It's also worth noting that LEDs last for at least 50k hours. The failure mode is that they get dimmer, not that they fail completely. Whereas that $1 light bulb will last for about 1000 hours. Maybe more, maybe less, depends on the setting and the individual variations in manufacture. So a $1 light bulb is actually quite a bit more expensive than a good-quality LED light bulb. Don't waste your money on the cheap ones. If you're desperate to continue using incandescent, get halogen bulbs—they produce good light and consume about 70% of the power doing it. But we're using Cree bulbs and loving them. The really cheap ones have lousy color rendering, but the Cree bulbs do really well.
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Insightful)
But if I have my lights on for 5 hours a day in the evening, that 50k hours becomes nearly 30 years.
Yes, LED's are cheaper in the long run, both in capital and running costs. But the payoff periods are pretty long. You may get better value for money buying incandescent bulbs and investing the money saved in power companies.
Re: What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Funny)
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Yup, I was thrilled to see Cree finally come out with a bulb! Decent light distribution, not very heavy, and the 60watt is actually too bright for many places in my home. I have a bunch of these and a bunch of all th eothers too that I've been buying for a good while now to play with. The Cree aren't uber sophisticated but they work wonderfully well! To date I've only had one LED give me issues and it was part of a pack from Costco that was dirt cheap and flashed at me. Every other I've bought in the last 2
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
Um, no. Find me a warranty for 50,000 hours for a reasonable cost. You'll find that most warranties don't extend past 5 years, and those that do typically have a time limit to the hours burned. Ex:
(from Home Depot)
Cree: 10 years (5 years for downlights/inverted use)
EcoSmart: 5 years
Philips: 6 years, limited to 3 hours/day (6000hours!)
Sylvania: 3 years @ 4300h/yr or 5yrs @ 2160hr/yr
Many will claim a lifetime, but will only warrant for a short period. Also realize that these warranties are limited to the life of the lighting subsidiary. For Philips and Sylvania, probably not a worry. For EcoSmart and Cree...will they even be in the residential lamp business (directly) in 5 or 10 years? Will you still even have the receipt? I point this out because I've replaced every single CFL (15) in my home office area in the past 24 months, some of them twice. The manufacturer is no longer in business, the vendor just shrugs - not their problem.
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The warrantee is for the power supply, in case it has an early failure. The LEDs will last forever—they just get dimmer over time, and they reach the end of their lifetime when they are 70% as bright as they were when new—that's what the 50k hour figure refers to.
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In the mean time, I need to go out and get a new bulb.
Which is part of the reason why I think LEDs should be parts of fixtures, not stuffed into individual bulbs. Go with the long tube flourescent model - have a seperate power supply. While you're at it make it modular so you don't have to mess with wirenuts and such.
This also gives you an advantage because the ideal lighting patterns between incandescents and LEDs are quite different. I'd rather see a fixture designed with them in mind, especially given that with regular usage most LED bulbs would be the l
Re:What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm using some of the LED floods from that Home Depot page as well as some Cree and the ones with the yellow phosphor on them. The floods use maybe 20watts apiece and replaced bulbs drawing 120watts apiece. They dim fine, they throw a ton of light, and I know they don't get hot although outside I could care less. The packages on that page are multipacks but when I first started buying bulbs single bulbs could be as much as $40 - they're still running 2 years later. I've swapped out a ton of the older bulbs and many of the fluorescent ones too. So far no LED have burned out on me and they light well. I no longer feel the need to keep a bunch of bubs in the closet - I don't ever need replacements. I couldn't say that before!
Re: What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: What is the best way to buy some in bulk? (Score:5, Informative)
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Depends on what you are looking for. A couple years ago, I bought a bunch of 12 volt LEDs for my RV, a buck each from eBay, with free shipping (although it took a few weeks to get here). Said lights, though high on the color temperature scale, are still going strong, and use 1/7 as much electricity as the normal filament bulbs, which is very useful when boondocking.
Since most LEDs are made overseas anyway, one might be able to find a no-name Taiwanese provider who sells the same bulbs as a name brand, but
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Re:They aren't banned... (Score:5, Informative)
They aren't banned, as you can still buy the rough service bulbs. Newcandescent among others sells them for $2-3 a pop, and they have a 10000 hour life instead of the 1000 hour life that normal bulbs claim. They are cheaper and the light is easier on the eyes than any of the alternatives available at this time. Go rough service, I have a whole case on order and they should last me for decades.
One way they get the longer lifetime of the bulbs is to use a thicker filament, and they rate the lumens at 130V, while most homes are going to have 110 - 120V delivered to their homes, so you're getting less light out of the bulb.
You can get a quaility Halogen replacement bulb that will provide 100W equivalent performance while using only about 70 watts and will last 3500 hours for around $5.
I don't know if you think you're making a stand against government, but if you use the rough service bulbs instead of more efficient bulbs, you're costing yourself more money and getting less light than if you just bought an efficient halogen replacement.
How much more? At 4 hours/day the $2.50 10000 hour Rough Service bulb will last almost 7 years, while you'd need 3 of the 3500 hour $5 halogens to last that long, so you'll end up paying $12.50 more for the bulbs. However, saving 30 watts means 306KWh of energy savings for the Halogen, or around $36 at 12 cents/KWh.
So, you'll spend over $20 for the privilege of having less light, but you'll have proven why legislation was needed to get people to select bulbs that save them money.
Or are you going to claim that even halogen incandescents don't provide the same quality of light as conventional incandescents?
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The only problem with your claim about the new bulbs saving money only applies if the electric utility does not have any rate increases in the works. I live in California and Edison International already has approved rate increases for the next 20 years that completely destroys any savings from more efficient light bulbs. Because of this, I'll stick with my god damn incadescent bulbs and use energy efficient ones only where it makes sense (long run times).
Posting AC due to mod points being used
Fast Turtle
You are joking, right?
Rate increases mean that more efficient bulbs save even *more* money. Replace the 12 cents/KWh above with 20 cents/KWh and instead of saving $36 over 7 years, you save $60. If you're a high power user in PG&E territory, you're already paying 31 - 35 cents/KWh in the highest rate tier, so you'll save even more money with efficient bulbs.
And note that that savings I quoted were not for LED or CFL's, but energy efficient Halogens.
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Halogens may be more efficient, but they are significantly hotter than incandescents [wikipedia.org], in part because the bulbs have a smaller surface area.
The drop in replacement halogens have the inner glass envelope enclosed by a standard sized glass bulb so a 72W halogen doesn't get hotter than the 100w bulb it replaces.
Re: Is there any hope for my Lava Lamps? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What about mercury? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're in a coal-fired powerstation area, then it's still a major win. There's mercury in the bulbs, but mercury is released by burning coal and the power savings more than outweigh what's in the bulb.
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Go buy some 40W actual (Think that's 60W equivalent) halogen bulbs. Same heat to melt the wax, but more light.
Re:Why hoard? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because CFLs suck donkey balls for light quality*, they come on excessively slowly in cold temperatures, and they only emit 20-50% light during their warmup period (say, less than the time it takes to retrieve an item from your closet). And while the majority of the lamp will work fine for 10,000 hours, the electronics have a bad case of going toes up in less than 2000. I've replaced all 15 of the CFLs in my home office in the past 24 months. Some of them twice.
*Find me a 2700, 2800, or 3000K CFL with a CRI higher than 95 for less than 5x the cost of an incandescent and I'll take that back.
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Special bulbs were always exempt. Better incandescent are not banned, only the embarrassingly primitive ones that arguably are not light bulbs since you're lucky to get 10% light from them--- the rest is heat. It's frankly misleading to label them anything other than a heater or a resistor.
Re:It's not freaking out- it's having options (Score:5, Informative)
I happen to work in the utility industry. Power for lighting both commercial and residential is low single-digit percentage. (Incidentally this is also why daylight saving time is a colossal mistake.)
The incandescent lightbulb ban is just a show. It's political theater. There are dozens of ways to save more power with more bang for the buck.