Gunmen Kill 12, Wound 7 At French Magazine HQ 1350
An anonymous reader writes: A pair of gunmen have stormed the office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, killing 12 people and wounding seven more. The magazine had recently published a cartoon of ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and witnesses say the gunmen shouted, "we have avenged the Prophet Muhammad," before leaving. "Four of the magazine's well-known cartoonists, including its editor-in-chief Stephane Charbonnier were reported among those killed, as well as at least two police officers. Mr Charbonnier, 47, had received death threats in the past and was living under police protection." The attackers engaged police in a gunfire outside the building, then fled in a car. At the time of this writing, they are still at large. Currently, the BBC has the most information out of English news outlets. French speakers can consult the headline at Le Monde for more current news.
islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
Re:islam (Score:5, Funny)
Romani Ite Domum
(wrong thread?)
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
How many people were killed in the name of Christianity in the past 100 years? last 50? Last 10???
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
In the real world.
Using terrorism to "fight" terrorism is, as any sentient being would realize, STILL TERRORISM.
Re:islam (Score:5, Interesting)
and what do you suggest we do? simply walk away and let them take over? I dont think we should have gone there to begin with, we should just let them kill each other. but its too late for that now. ISIS popped up because we left before the job was finished (again a job we never should have taken but we did, so we should finish it)
The big one is a peaceful resolution to Israel/Palestine.
Secondary, don't go overboard fighting terrorism. How do you suppose people here would react if Iran were dropping bombs in US suburbs to kill Christian terrorists, killing many civilians in the process? What if they invaded France for no good reason and sparked civil unrest killing 100,000+? I think terrorism drops signficantly if we simply stop fighting it so hard for a few years.
Thirdly, less support for Middle East dictators who happen to be pro-West. People don't like those who aid their suppressors.
Fourth, don't freak out about every foreign government that is identifiably Islamic. Muslim's aren't dumb, they notice the freakout the west has whenever they hear the word Islam, if you're treating someone like your enemy they're likely to do the same in reverse.
None of this is to say that terrorists are remotely justified, but for stuff like this it's best to think of people as existing on a bell curve where the left tail is complete pacifism and the right is terrorism. In the west the mean is closer to pacifist and the standard deviation is small, so our extremist groups tend to look more like the Westborough Baptist Church. But every aggravating action that occurs increases the standard deviation and pushes the mean further to the right, This creates more terrorists at the right hand tail.
The point is that any action that would make you angry if you were a Muslim is going to create more terrorists, so before we do something that would piss off a lot of people we really need to consider if it's worth it.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
so, standing up to islamist extremists is now a sign of christian terrorism??? in what world???
Often in this world, because "standing up to islamist extremest" often devolves into "persecuting any muslims we can find, to get revenge for what the extremists did". What happens is the islamist extremists do something horrible, which so outrages/terrorizes the local non-muslim population and/or government that they end up responding by doing something horrible to the local muslim population.
That's why it's critical to understand that the distinction to make is terrorist/non-terrorist, and not muslim/non-muslim. Otherwise you just get a never-ending spiral of retaliatory violence, with militants on both sides attacking non-militants on the other side (and radicalizing more non-militants to become militants for the next round).
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Name one Islamic Nation where Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else is actually FREE to practice their religion
Pretty much all of them except the ones that are Arab.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
The resulting legacy of Islam is that for 1600 years, it has destroyed civilizations it has infiltrated.
Oh hey, look, 30 seconds of Googling and I've found a history of forced conversion to Christianity that stretches back for 1600 years. [wikipedia.org]
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here isn't Islam, it's that the Islamic area is still living in the dark ages, where military power is key, killing your enemies is respected, and torturing people you don't like is accepted. This was true in Europe, Asia, and anywhere else. If Saddam were Christian, he would have been just as bad. If Gaddafi were atheist, he would have just as happily been a dictator.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
An Islamic country where others are free to practice their religions, that is easy: Turkey, Egypt, and Morocco immediately come to mind, as well as Malaysia. Really most Islamic nations have large, well-established, minority religions who have been practicing freely within their boarders.
And you will have to prove that Islam has "destroyed civilizations it has infiltrated", since all of those places have had functioning societies for the last 1600 years. If you mean that invaders have taken political control and influenced the culture, well then I think you are a little confused about what "invading" means. If that is the case then you will have to look at what the U.S. has done to places like Japan (we decided they would be a democracy... then put the people we wanted in power).
And Islam is no more or less violent or peaceful than Christianity. After all, the Christian Bible has the example of God commanding the Israelites to exterminate the Canaanites, then punished them when they failed to kill all of the women, children, and babies. You really can't get more violent than that.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
But that was how many years ago? 500+? The Catholic church and it's beliefs have greatly changed since. The way I see it, Islam (or some members/sections of it) today is where the Christian/Catholic religion was many centuries ago was. Trying to force their beliefs on others and wanting to kill those that don't accept. The true Muslim people that are against this violence need to stand up. This is a fight that can only be won from within it's own religion with its own people if you ask me.
(I too am not religious. I don't hate them I just choose not to be brain washed)
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Marxism is a religion in a way
Marxism is not a religion in any way. It has similar qualities of a religion, just like you can find similarities between a truck and a wheel barrel, but they are very different.
There is a reason why faith and religion are different words in the English language. Just because something requires faith does not make it religious in nature.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
Marxism is not a religion in any way.
I don't buy that in the least. It's a dogmatic, organized belief system with formal ways to worship the belief system. And they require supernatural agency as well, both to suspend disbelief about actual human behavior and to explain why things aren't working as expected (imaginary kulaks, counterrevolutionaries, capitalists, etc are always holding us back). They check off all the boxes.
Re:islam (Score:5, Funny)
Sure it was; I've seen the NTSB report. The pilot exceeded the certificated service ceiling of the aircraft; solar radiation caused primary structural debonding; and the pilot left a parabolic trail of wax, feathers and Greek obscenities into the Sea of Crete.
Pilot error.
Re:islam (Score:4)
Marxism is not a religion in any way
It has its prophet, Marx. It has its bible, the little red book. It has its apostles, Lenin, Trotsky, etc. It has its saints/martyrs, Stakhanov and others. It requires faith. What else do you need in a religion ? Oh yes, It's damn stupid and it kills people who disagree.
Re:islam (Score:5, Interesting)
I would agree that Marxism is not a religion due to any aspect of faith, but it is a religion in the sense that it is an organized belief adhered to by many. It need not have any faith-based component or theology.
Religion loses a lot of its meaning if any ideology can be considered a religion. A religion requires either supernatural beings or at least the belief in some kind of higher order to the world. Marxism is merely a belief that the relationship between labor and capital fostered by capitalism is not a desirable one. Many economic, sociological, and philosophical theories are derived from this belief, but again I see no reason why that crosses over to religion.
I believe the theories derived from Marxism are flawed, but not ridiculous. While I can see why those who believe Marxism is ridiculous draw parallels between Marxism and religion, but not every ridiculous belief system should automatically be considered a religion.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
The same would apply in many respects to other modern ideologies like anarchism, Libertarianism, and even to Capitalism. Fortunately few modern states are run purely on ideological grounds.
Religion is a special case of ideology, but that does not mean every ideology is a religion.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
You are the standard ideologue... Everyone else's ideology is a baseless religion, but yours, well, it is merely the truth....
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong - it requires faith in the banking system. That money in your hand isn't really worth anything, we just have faith that it does.
Re: islam (Score:5, Informative)
Capitalism doesn't require faith to work because it's basically anarchy.
Capitalism isn't anarchy. Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit. So long as government allows private individuals to trade and engage in industry and the means of production, and allow them to have their profits or losses then capitalism exists.
The "invisible hand" Is basically a nice way to say you're leaving things to chance...
The 'invisible hand' is not a way of saying you're leaving things to chance. The 'invisible hand' is a way of saying that allowing people to trade according to terms mutually beneficial to themselves often promotes the benefits of society, even when promoting benefits of society wasn't among their motivations.
~Loyal
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't confuse people of a certain religion killing people, versus people being killed for a religion. I doubt that anyone ever ran into battle shouting "For Shinto!" "For Atheism!"
The famous killers who have been athiests have not killed people in the name of atheism. That contrasts with Christian killers who most certainly killed in the name of their religion, or Islamist killers who have done the same.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? Shinto aka the divinity of the Emperor
Shinto has been around since before 600BC and is "the way of the gods", not "the divinity of the Emperor." And you're trying to tell me that the goal of the Imperial Japanese military was to spread Shinto, rather than their own influence? That the soldiers in battle were not fighting for their nation, but for their religion?
"For Atheism!" They did but
No. They didn't. If you disagree, cite a source that quotes someone engaging in a battle in name of atheism, for the purpose of spreading atheism. Not Marxism, atheism. Marxism and atheism are not the same thing. People fighting revolutions are not fighting to bring about atheism, that is not their goal. Their goal is an entire political, social, and economic ideology, not just the removal of organized religion.
But, really, you don't care about any of this, do you? You just want to throw out some phrases about how Atheism itself (as some sort of organized thing which you imagine it to be) is responsible for the greatest number of deaths throughout history so that you engage people in meaningless debates where you pull out examples of people who were atheist and try to claim that their actions were done specifically in the name of atheism. We both know that's bullshit, but looking at your other comments that's obviously your goal. Good luck fighting your war against what you believe Atheism to be.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
"1. you can't kill"
No, you can't murder.
Re:islam (Score:5, Informative)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah...but right now in this day in age, I'm not terribly concerned about all the Baptists running around beheading people, running around as suicide bombers, and shooting up news offices and killing innocent people.
And PLEASEdon't give me shit about the anti-abortionists, they are fringe and rarely happen. Every group has a few fringe elements, but with the muslims, this is happening so often and so pervasive around the world, I don't think anyone can consider this type of action a fringe element.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
"They show up with nasty signs and video cameras"
Well that certainly is exactly as awful as murdering 12 people in an office! Not SIGNS!!!!!
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
harassing and terrorizing
Harassing, yes.
Terrorising - absolutely not.
You are watering down the term to a level that means nothing.
it's ridiculous to carry on with the delusion that this is somehow unique to Islam,
Quite a lot more ridiculous to recognize it's not primarily members of the islamic faith doing this - and keeping women slaves, and all sorts of other fun stuff.
But do keep complaining abut people merely holding signs instead of heads as "terrorists", so that we know you can be ignored.
In the name of Allah ! (Score:4, Insightful)
They bombed the London Tube for Allah
They bombed the Madrid train station for Allah
They crashed planes into the World Trade Center at NYC and at the Pentagon for Allah
A film director was murdered in the Netherlands for Allah
Hostages had been killed in Sydney for Allah
And now, at least 12 person have been cold-bloodedly slaughtered, in Paris, for Allah
In the name of "Allah", who will be the next victim ?
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Funny)
Hopefully the bold tag?
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
Whats even worse is that because you can project the actions of a few, who are organized into organizations for such, onto a much wider population, you'll ultimately fail at stopping terrorism because you wouldn't know where to start by fighting it. You'll also easily be thrown off track into attacking strawmen, and other no-value targets sparking wider conflict out of stupidity. Its not just that the "take them all" approach will invaribly kill innocents, its the fact is that its prohibits higher order thinking needed to form a more reasonable plan of attack with a higher chance of success.
The end result of American culture disvaluing intellectualism at all levels is that we start loosing wars because we distrust anyone smart enough to proccess all but the most simple of stratagem. People like you would rather loose than be labeled a nerd for trying to strategize. This is the real cause for the fall of western civilization.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
and not blame an entire reliegon of 1.2 billion people for a handful of incidents, and fringe groups.
No I am tired of that argument it might have been legit 20 years ago but history in the mean time has proven its horse shit.
You be real. One religion in recent history has been responsible for the vast vast majority of religious inspired violence. Essentially two mainstream religions feature a scripture that preaches violence against its enemies, the Islamic and Jewish faiths. The latter does not have any prevailing interpretations advocating violence outside a small patch of land.
Christianity has the New Testament which is supreme over the Old and is very consistent in its advocacy of nonviolence. Where violence is "called for" the specified actor is nearly always God who will be doing the damning, smiting, cutting down of, etc.. Its not up to the individual. Generally this pretty compatible with modern society. They up the road can hope as much as he likes God will strike me down, as long as he does take the initiative himself I am not especially concerned. One can be a practicing Christian using most main line interpretations without doing much direct harm to anyone else.
Islam on the other hand host lots of prevailing interpretations that very much do require followers to attack others. Its not socially compatible at all. When polled you actually find quite a lot of support for groups like ISIS and Boko Haram from "western" faithful (ignorant teenagers anyway) even if they are not about to take up arms themselves.
These might be "fringe groups" but its a pretty damn large fringe compared to the fringes of other major religions.
I am not saying governments ought to step in an stop people from practicing their faith but I do think the rest of society might do well to express a little less religious tolerance and acceptance. A little social exclusion would probably lead lots of younger folks to drop it, and maybe after a generation or two most followers who remain won't bring it up often at all and will boil it down to a few annual excuses for naked commercialism.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Interesting)
So basic logic was legit 20 years ago, but now it's invalid?
You mean a subset of people who consider themselves to be part of a religion.
But only against those you choose to be intolerant again. And when you are intolerant, you express blanket intolerance. Great way to make enemies and end up like Europe.
Or it would make them feel oppressed and alienated, leading them to lend an ear to the extremists. Oh wait, this is exactly what is happening. You are your own worst enemy.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
In the name of "Allah", who will be the next victim ?
Almost certainly a Muslim. Islamists kill more Muslims that all their other victims combined.
In fact... here's your answer: 38 poor saps killed today in Yemen [bbc.com] who were minding their own business. All Muslims.
And don't think you (or at least I) are particularly better in this regard by virtue of being Christian. Christian extremists don't seem to have any more trouble with marching into Christian church services [wikipedia.org] right here in the USA and murdering people they have religious disputes with.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? Want me to compare atrocity to atrocity? Because I can go on all day with RECENT killings, mass murders, homicides, war crimes, etc. You're talking to someone sitting an easy drive from the ruins of the Murrah Building. There's no reason that couldn't happen again tomorrow.
The real problem here is extremists. Period. When you start to think a dispute with another person is best solved by killing people, you become an instrument of evil, no matter where you sit yourself on Sunday morning.
Violence against "those people" (whoever "those people" happens to be in your mind) is simple human nature, and it has to be fought everywhere, if you don't want the place you live in to start looking like the miserable places where it is currently running rampant.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet Europe is not in flames, despite the EU having around 20 million Muslims and lots of people who aren't shy to express their dislike of Islam. How odd. You'd almost think the perpetrators were simply homicidal maniacs who also happen to be Muslims.
The purpose of these strikes is to provoke non-Muslims into reacting without thinking. If Muslims are integrated into modern Western society, then religious fanatics will have no power over them. That's why they're trying to drive a wedge between Muslims and the rest. If you continue spouting absurd garbage like above, you're effectively supporting the terrorists.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Informative)
"Allah" was the moon god. He co-opted "allah" and turned it into what it is now.
Bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Informative)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Informative)
Not that you made any such claim, but those are all Old Testament scriptures, thus for Christians they have been overridden by the teachings of Jesus Christ. None of those apply to Christianity, which makes sense, as you don't see Christians running around trying to enforce anything of the sort.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Informative)
Not that you made any such claim, but those are all Old Testament scriptures...
No they're not. Romans is in the New Testament.
One of the other responders commented that Christians use the Bible to justify anti-gay bigotry, and usually reference Leviticus when they do. They could as easily reference the New Testament. That passage from Romans maintains the death penalty for gay behaviors, for disobeying parents, for worshiping idols, and for oathbreaking, among other things.
Re:In the name of Allah ! (Score:5, Insightful)
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
He's speaking about Jewish Law, not Roman Law, and he's speaking about Jewish prophets. Unless you completely ignore what he's saying, he's explicitly stating that Jewish Law is still in effect, and that his teaching are *in addition* to what his Father has already laid out. Note that The Father/Son thing isn't really accurate, either, because the Trinity is One, so it's really his own law via his other manifestation.
The *only* piece of Jewish law that he specifically overrides is performing sacrifices, as he states that he is the final ultimate sacrifice from now until Judgement Day.
So if you're a fundamentalist Christian (for example, a Calvinist) you adhere to the Ten Commandments because that's just as important as the direct word of Jesus, because it's the same god commanding them. This extends to the other lessons of the Bible. Being gay will get your whole town obliterated, so don't do it.
You cannot claim Christianity and then only use select passages to back your specific interpretation. Either you believe the *whole* book is the inspired message of your deity, or you're just engaging in a self-affirming tautology.
So you are 100% incorrect, unless you wish to parse words like the pharisees that Jesus so notably denounces.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
And in fact the criminals who murdered these 12 people are not followers of Islam though they claim to do it in the name of Islam. And the vast majority of those who are Muslim in the world do not condone nor celebrate these kind of murders done in the name of Islam, and really do want, as most of us do, peace. To paint them all with the same brush is to be as bigoted as those who committed this heinous act in the first place, especially when I read of westerners who call for the annihilation of Muslims, as I've read in other places. Surely that is no better than religious extremism.
I have spent some significant time in the middle east, and I can assure you that in general the peoples of that area (of all cultural identities, Turkish, Arab, Persian, and others) are good folks who are welcoming and hospitable, just as I'm sure the majority of westerners are. We have our own extremist and criminals in the west as well, of different kinds, be they non-religious or religious.
In actual fact, the root causes of many forms of terrorism are not very different from common gang problems in the United States. Disenfranchisement, poverty, political corruption, military occupation all contribute to the problem, though that cannot excuse personal responsibility.
This tragic event seems to fit the definition of "terrorism" but I fear the word has still lost all meaning. A man who shot and killed 8 people in Calgary recently is called a "mass murderer." Perhaps this is not terrorism because his goal was to terrorize and kill a single family, not a city or nation? If a killing can be linked to some religious idea is it terrorism? The "troubles" in northern Ireland in the 80s and 90s, was that terrorism? What about the PKK fight against Turkey, or the intifada in Palestine (which is clearly not religious in nature)? What about the massacre in Norway in 2011? Certainly that was terrorism, but definitely not religious at all?
I sincerely hope that these criminals are captured quickly and brought to justice. I also hope that innocent folks who do follow Isam, and are in fact peaceful, will not face reprisals or violence against them. And my heart goes out to the families who lost their loved ones in today's senseless attack.
We need Voltaire (Score:5, Insightful)
Never has this quote from Voltaire been more true:
Those who can make people believe absurdities can make them commit atrocities.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
The crusades happened hundreds of years ago. It is no longer relevant today. Islamist violence, on the other hand, has been going on since the founding of that religion and continues to this day. More people are beaten, maimed, mutilated, raped, and murdered in the name of allah every single day than all other religions combined.
Re:islam (Score:5, Informative)
I am all about being correct. And in this case, Islam is no more or less violent than Christianity is, if you judge it according to the respective holy book.
Muslims take their holy book very seriously... I know that is an alien concept for Christians.
What you could say is that the people, where Islam is predominant, seem to be uncivilized bastards, that would be another matter.
But let me just remind you that it was the US that initiated a coup in Iran that unseated a democratically chosen head of state to install a US friendly dictator.
Let me also remind you that it was a religious leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, who rallied the people to take their country back without the use of force against, I believe, the fifth strongest army in the world, after heavy armament through the US.
Many a muslim country, once pretty stable and forward thinking, has been destabilized by US politics in order to cement US influence to the detriment of local population opening doors for extremists to take power.
Re:islam (Score:5, Informative)
> I am all about being correct. And in this case, Islam is no more or less violent than Christianity is, if you judge it according to the respective holy book.
That's not true at all.
The Bible is written such that the violence of the old testament is the back story for the mission of peace in the gospels. It's basically saying, "This is how it used to be - now all that ends, and the Kingdom of Heaven begins with Jesus Christ." The New Testament is all about "turning the other cheek", about martyrdom of peaceful saints, of loving thy neighbor. Pray for those who persecute you. The scourging and crucifixion itself shows that suffering at the hands of another is no reason to retaliate with violence.
Are there those who twist that message? Absolutely. Just don't call them Christians.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Which explains why all manner of bigotry is justified by certain groups of Christians with the help of a delightful array of quotes from the Old Testament. That some Christians believe the Old Testament was sidelined by the New, that is hardly a universal belief, and certainly in many of the more modern evangelical Protestant churches, the Old Testament holds every bit as much weight as the New.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
We used to call those people "Heretics". Now, we just call them idiots who don't know their own faith.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Khomeini was a clever bastard who tricked the Iranian reformists who wished to replace the Shah with a democracy. He promised before he got on a plane in France to be merely a figurehead. In short order he had co-opted the revolution (which was, by and large to that point, secular in nature). Khomeini was a bastard and an awfully good reason why, when such individuals flee their homelands, they be offered commodious and permanent exile; a gilded cage, but a cage nonetheless.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
The Bible and the Koran are not the same. The Bible has some messed up stuff in it, but crucially it is a collection of stories written by different people and acknowledged to be so. The Koran is supposed to be the literal word of god himself, dictated to Mohammed who then dictated it from memory to his mate who could actually write.
The Bible is thus more open to interpretation. It has to be, because it contradicts itself quite often. More over, it isn't quite as specific about murdering infidels, killing people for apostasy, cutting off the hands of thieves etc. There is a lot of nasty stuff in there, no doubt, but the Koran contains actual commands, directly from the mouth of god, to do those things.
In addition, Jesus was mostly okay but Mohammed was a dick. Not a great role model.
Given time Islam may be able to reform and somehow get past what their holy book says, but it won't be easy.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are the obvious ones. They are not perfect countries, of course, but they are large, multicultural democracies with Islam as the state religion.
Real democracies don't need official religions.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Just try getting elected in America to any high political office without being or pretending to be a believer in some god.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]
Re:islam (Score:5, Informative)
Well let's see... the IRA/English's battle over Northern Ireland (largely drawn across Catholic/Protestant religious lines) cease fire was just over 20 years ago. And the final peace accord was only 17 years ago. That marked the end of 30 years of assassinations, murders, bombings, and attacks all of which were surrounded by religious fervor.
The Gun Powder Plot (Remember, remember, the 5th of November) was driven (and justified) by religious ideals.
The KKK was a main stream Protestant religious organization for a century in the US.
More recently, Christian militias have been responsible for numerous violent clashes and "cleansings" in north-east India (anti-Hindu).
In central Africa, the Anti-Balaka militias are spreading Jesus' word by assassinating Muslims.
You have the 1990's Manipur that left 900 dead and tens of thousands displaced as Christian terrorists decided to enforce their views.
There was the Christian fundamentalist in Oslo that shot up that kid's camp, leaving 77 dead because he felt that immigrants were eroding their "Christian Values"
I'm not here to debate the merits of Islam, but to claim that Christianity as a whole has been perfectly clean since the 1500's is a gross mischaracterization of the numerous religious organizations and individuals that fall under the Christian designation.
-Rick
Re:islam (Score:5, Informative)
Ok so add up all the dead from every christian-initiated incident you mentioned from the last 1000 years and compare that to than the number of innocent people killed by islamic terrorist activity every month. Starting to get it now?
Monthly Jihad Report
December, 2014:
Jihad Attacks: 233
Countries: 30
Allah Akbars: 33
Dead Bodies: 2497
Critically Injured: 2225
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
What about George Bush
'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
Casualties count goes from 100.000 to 1.000.00 deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not here to debate the merits of Islam, but to claim that Christianity as a whole has been perfectly clean since the 1500's is a gross mischaracterization of the numerous religious organizations and individuals that fall under the Christian designation.
Try as I might, I don't see that claim being made in the parent post. That Islam has caused more deaths in the last few decades, especially the last decade, should come as a surprise to precisely nobody. As much as I don't particularly like Christianity as a religion either, nobody's sent planes into buildings with thousands of civilians in the name of Jesus. Nobody's trying to transform the Middle East into a new Christian country, beheading all that oppose them and sending out the videos on Twitter.
Re:islam (Score:4, Informative)
President George W Bush, 2003
Re:islam (Score:5, Interesting)
Wrong. The conflict was about differing traditions and governance. The fact that the 2 groups had differing flavours of Christianity was a detail.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
Ireland's war with Britain was as much about ethic sovereignty as it was about religion. When church and state are linked (in both cases) making it about religion only is simply a false narrative.
Re:islam (Score:4)
It's a common mistake to look at the IRA murders, bombing, etc in a religious light - as you said, the sides were largely drawn across Catholic/Protestant lines, but what the IRA did was never in the name of religion, it was in the name of nationalism. Not that I'm defending what the IRA - as an Irishman, I never supported their methods, nor anyone else's violence.
The problem we have is that it's always pretty easy to find a Imam in the UK condoning and rationalising the methods used by Al Quada, ISIL (or whatever they want to call themselves). You'll struggle to find a priest or vicar in the UK rationalising the christian led cleansings that you've described.
I don't see many people claiming the christianity cleaned itself up perfectly since the crusades, but just compare these - List of Islamic terrorist attacks [wikipedia.org] vs. Christian terrorism [wikipedia.org]. The difference is that while christian terrorism is tapering off (you mentioned Guy Fawkes & the KKK), islamic terrorism is showing no such signs of slowing down (that list is just from the 1980s). I constantly hear christians whinging of how their views are being sidelined, so what, you're allowed to believe what you want. Likewise we're constantly told by bleeding hearts that young muslims are feeling oppressed because of criticism of islam - everyone's beliefs are criticised, it just that muslims appear to believe they're special and that they should be exempt.
Quite frankly, I don't care if people believe in god(s), just as long as they don't try making me live my life to conform with their views. I don't like my politicians talking about religion when it comes to policy, and I certainly don't like the idea of being killed because I drew a cartoon of a prophet.
Re:islam (Score:5, Insightful)
If all 1 billions Muslims were gun-wielding terrorists, you could be sarcastic about peace and Islam. Explain the Crusades, if Christians are so brotherly.
Right, the crusades... that was bad so clearly all Christians should be executed in the streets while on their knees begging for their life.
Re:islam (Score:5, Interesting)
If just 1 percent of the 1.6 billion Muslims were gun-wielding terrorists, you get Sixteen Million gun-wielding terrorists.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
I am not a Christian but your argument sucks.
The crusades were over 1000 years ago, and that is still the best example of Christian church-led violence you can come up with?, yet multiple fatalities of innocent people from islamic terrorist attacks are taking place every day.
Unlike islam, Christianity does not condone let alone instruct the killing of anyone, especially not just because they insulted the name of Jesus. In fact Christianity teaches us to forgive.
Unlike islam, Christianity does not teach denial of basic human rights and prevention of education of certain groups of people (because of their gender, race or beliefs).
Unlike islam, Christianity does not have radical priests that brainwash believers into becoming human bombs. ...Want me to go on? ...and yes I on purpose spelt Christianity with a capital C but islam with a lower case i, as the even the name of such a scum-ridden religion doesn't deserve any respect.
Re:islam (Score:4, Informative)
Explain the Crusades, if Christians are so brotherly.
OK. The Crusades were a misguided attempt by Urban II to redirect the fratricidal violence among French nobility of the 11th century somewhere else, one conceived when suddenly a well-timed request by the Byzantines for help against the invading Seljuks came in.
Re:islam (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, the purpose of the crusades was to retake the holy lands from muslim invaders and free Christians oppressed by them, and was undertaken at the request of the Byzantine empire.
Now, once they got there tons of other political, religious and economic forces combined with the general barbarism of the time led to slaughter and theft. But "hey, let's take that land back from conquerers of a different religion" is a far cry from "you drew a picture we don't like so we're going to murder you and all your friends."
Re:Explain the Crusades (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, the Crusades, whatever the religious justification, were about propping up the Byzantine Empire... well, except the 4th Crusade, which ultimately was about a bunch of rich Italians seizing Byzantium, looting it and sending the booty back to Italy.
NOT (Score:4, Interesting)
1.) America protects the most nasty Mohammedanics - the Saudi Wahabists. They also did 9/11
2.) Here in Germany we have PEGIDA, who publicly protest the corrupt elite who do the appeasement.
3.) I hear UKIP and FN are actually also against the medivalist friends of America.
Re:Let's ban all guns! (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that in the UK, the ban -- which they take very, very seriously -- actually DOES result in significantly less gun violence.
You may be personally opposed to a ban, but you can't argue in good faith that a bans can't EVER work when we have very clear examples of bans doing exactly what they set out to do.
White House... (Score:5, Funny)
...is still trying to decide if it's Terrorism or Work Place Violence.
Re:White House... (Score:5, Informative)
Before You Ask [weeklystandard.com] for a citation.
Re:White House... (Score:4, Insightful)
Check this response [cairchicago.org] from CAIR back in 2005 to riots and violence in France.
You can't make this shit up.
Re:White House... (Score:5, Insightful)
Clearly these gunmen were victims, and we should not judge them for their actions. They should be rewarded for standing up against the big bad papers for printing cartoons.
This is the real irony. The Prime Commandment of Islam is that You Shall not add gods to God.
That's the reason why so much Islamic artwork is geometric or calligraphic and does not portray humans or animals. Because apparently Muslims are so weak against temptation that even the slightest glimpse of a female body will incite the faithful to uncontrollable lust and any picture or statue is a potential idol to be worshipped in place of Al-lah, The God. Even children's dolls have been made suspect, though the Prophet himself gives them a pass.
When the Prophet is portrayed, it is with his features obscured or veiled.
In other words, they treat him as a God.
And a weak God at that. Any god who needs the violence of armed men against the unarmed to protect Him is a feeble god indeed.
The Qur'an says it over and over again: God will be the judge. If you have faith that God is the all-wise, and all-powerful, you should have faith that He will take care of himself and his own and that no force on Earth can truly harm Him or those under His protection. And certainly not some silly pictures, whether ridiculing the faith or sympathizing with it. To assume the role of judge and punisher in the name of the one who can create and destroy whole worlds is an act of unspeakable arrogance. And that is true regardless of your religion.
Re:White House... (Score:5, Insightful)
We have plenty of guns...the French, no so much. Well, except for the Terrorists. They seem to have plenty of guns.
re-post the cartoon (Score:5, Insightful)
All the more reason to share and repost the cartoon across the internet.
Re:re-post the cartoon (Score:5, Informative)
Re:re-post the cartoon (Score:4, Informative)
Freedom of expression (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the response of the fascist ideology known as Islam to freedom of expression.
Re:Freedom of expression (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not offended by their murder, I am outraged by it. I used to read Charlie Hebdo when I was living in France. The death of these journalists, artists, policemen sadens me. The people responsible need to be found and jailed for life as is the penalty for first degree murder under french law, after proper judicial process.
But let's be realistic. Terrorism of pretty much anykind is only a minor nuisance in the western world (not sure about the rest of the world). But we talk a lot about it because it appears random and it appeals to our deepest fear: the collapse of society.
But we need to make the difference between the terrorist and the group they claim to make their act for. When the IRA was very active in the 90s, I did not blame the Irish people. When the FLNC was active, I did not blame the people of Corsica. When the "army of god" bombed the abortion clinics in the 90's, I did not blame the Christians.
Fanatics are a problem. They must be stopped. Islam, like all religions, is defined by the belief of those that follow it.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, you really havent avenged anything. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, Stephane Charbonnier is one of the people who were killed in this latest attack. I really hope you're right that Charlie Hebdo will keep going, but it's a lot easier to recover from physical damage to offices than it is from having the staff that make the magazine what it is killed. :(
Re:No, you really havent avenged anything. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, this time they actually killed some employees, including cartoonists and the editor in chief. Unlike what we in Europe like to think, violence DOES work and DOES intimidate people into silence.
In the words of the editor of Charlie Hebdo (Score:5, Informative)
Re:In the words of the editor of Charlie Hebdo (Score:5, Informative)
said he did not see the bombing as the work of French Muslims, but of what he called "idiot extremists."
What he neglected to notice is that there's lots of room to be both.
Can be answered in devastating effect tommorow. (Score:5, Insightful)
Every media, newspaper, magazine, tv news outlet can provide their answer tommorow morning by posting direct on the front pages the cartoons of Mohammed - and simply state that Violence cannot, and will never win against the Pen.
However, media companies can also continue to self censorship as they have done now for many years, and leave small numbers of journalists and freedom fighters, to face these evil people on their own. Its a fucking call to arms - Its high time people understood on both sides that any form of respect towards a religion has to be earned and that religion will not be allowed to dictate what equates in terms of liberty and free speech.
This attack is the spear end of a much larger one on freedom, free speech and liberty by Islam and Muslims - and its been taking place over dacades. Its a serious fight, and should not end on the death of some Charles Hedbo office in France.
Every publication in France should take a stand. (Score:5, Interesting)
Some cartoons & translation (Score:5, Informative)
That would be great if magazines worldwide could support Charlie Hebdo and the free world by publishing some of these cartoons (with a better translation
1. "Mahomet is overwhelmed by fundamentalists" Balloon:"It's hard to be loved by jerks" [lexpress.fr]
2. "Charia Hebdo" Balloon:"100 lashes if you do not LOL [Lit.: die loughing]" [imgur.com]
3. "Coran is crap..." "It's not bullet proof" [meltybuzz.fr]
Video (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is uncensored video of the gunfight with a police officer, then the execution of the police officer. I think it's good for the public to see these kinds of things, so they can fully appreciate the reality of the threat posed to our society.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i... [liveleak.com]
Terrorists (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorists are people, who feel more threatened by a drawing than by drones,
Terrorists are people, who fear small girls with books more than death,
Terrorists are people, who use bullets because their mind cannot work with words,
they are not scared by torture or surveillance, but truth and freedom.
Re:Terrorists (Score:4, Informative)
+1. Islam is petrified of people who think, because thinking people will see it for the racist, facist, evil, misogynistic, hateful, backward pile of war-mongering nastiness that it truly is.
Anyone who doubts the depths of depravity encouraged by Islam should read Cruel and Usual Punishment [amazon.com], written by a former Muslim who suffered at the hands of Islam.
#JeSuisCharlie? (Score:5, Insightful)
This craziness isn't going to stop until the media and us people in general start standing up for the things that we're always claiming to hold dear.
Egyptian President (Score:5, Informative)
A couple days ago, I learned about the New Year's Day Speech by the Egyptian President. ..http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/01/egypts-president-sisi-calls-for-islamic-religious-revolution/
He called for a deep revolution in thought about the tenets of Islam. He believes that Muslims are destroying themselves and their credibility with the world with the violence being done in the name of Islam.
After I heard about the events in Paris, I really wanted to hear what he has to say. I think he would be dismayed, and point to it as an example of what he was saying.
Vive la France! (Score:5, Insightful)
My hat's off to the murder victims. They had the guts and the courage of conviction to take on Islam. Let us honor these brave Frenchmen and their country.
My fellow Americans like to joke about French surrender and Googling French military victories ('no results found"). But that seems absurd to me because it's the French doing all the brave things while Americans cower in fear.
I do not see CNN or Fox News or Huffington Post or any other American paper taking on Islam. Politically correct cowardice is rampant in America, home of the chickens. American activists bravely take on Silicon Valley tech firms and Xbox gamers for misogyny while completely ignoring the Islamic treatment of women. That's like attacking a kid for playing with water balloons while ignoring the mafia guy next to him planting C4 car bombs. But I guess even cowards have to make themselves feel good by doing something... as long as there's no danger to themselves. Safety is important!
Re:Really? On Slashdot? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Really? On Slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Inviting inflammatory discussion?
If the first two threads are any indication....
Now we can have the obligatory "Islam sucks" conversation, which will lead to the inevitable "all religion sucks" conversation, both of which are infinitely more enjoyable than simply leaving it at "Crazy people suck."
There's a low but non-zero chance that we might actually have an insightful conversation about free speech and the costs thereof but I wouldn't hold my breath. One of the new civil rights is the right not to be offended by anything at anytime....
Re:Really? On Slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now we can have the obligatory "Islam sucks" conversation, which will lead to the inevitable "all religion sucks" conversation, both of which are infinitely more enjoyable than simply leaving it at "Crazy people suck."
Actually, France has been dealing with a growing problem; namely, radical Islamists who have been busy turning entire neighborhoods within France into Sharia-run enclaves. No desire to integrate into society, and indeed, they'd prefer France become a caliphate.
Moderate voices, or efforts by moderate muslims to clamp down on this mess? Nowhere to be found.
The UK has been seeing a rise of this as well, and Germany has recently seen backlashes by neo-nationalist elements against similar problems found there.
Long story short, this is a hell of a lot more complex than you make it out to be, and points to a growing problem throughout the EU. The US sees only a small fraction of this issue (see also the town of Dearborn, MI) by comparison.
Re:Really? On Slashdot? (Score:4, Insightful)
We're being overrun by Islamics in the name of political correctness.
Re:Islam - the religion of peace (Score:5, Funny)
or 72 transsexual clones of Madonna impersonators.
Could be worse. Could be 72 clones of Madonna.
Re:umm... (Score:4)
Re:umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
never mind the fact that this has been posted here well after it's already been on every other media outlet.. but why is this on /.?
Are freedom-of-speech issues not one of Slashdot's common themes?
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Interesting)
Mother Theresa was a closeted atheist:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/d... [patheos.com]