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United States Government The Courts

White House Responds To Petition To Fire Aaron Swartz's Prosecutor 189

First time accepted submitter devloop writes Petitioners requesting the White House remove D.A. Carmen Ortiz from office for gross prosecutorial overreach in the case of Aaron Swartz, received today what amounts to a denial from WhiteHouse.gov. "Aaron Swartz's death was a tragic, unthinkable loss for his family and friends. Our sympathy continues to go out to those who were closest to him, and to the many others whose lives he touched. We also reaffirm our belief that a spirit of openness is what makes the Internet such a powerful engine for economic growth, technological innovation, and new ideas. That's why members of the Administration continue to engage with advocates to ensure the Internet remains a free and open platform as technology continues to disrupt industries and connect our communities in ways we can't yet imagine. We will continue this engagement as we tackle new questions on key issues such as citizen participation in democracy, open access to information, privacy, intellectual property, free speech, and security. As to the specific personnel-related requests raised in your petitions, our response must be limited. Consistent with the terms we laid out when we began We the People, we will not address agency personnel matters in a petition response, because we do not believe this is the appropriate forum in which to do so."
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White House Responds To Petition To Fire Aaron Swartz's Prosecutor

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  • question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by the_Bionic_lemming ( 446569 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:17AM (#48762609)

    How many times has this administration embraced a petition and moved forward with it?

    • Re:question (Score:5, Insightful)

      by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:30AM (#48762641) Journal
      Another question, do you think Obama even reads them?

      At a minimum they've been a good source of entertainment for eight years. I'll miss them when they're gone.
      • How many times has this administration embraced a petition and moved forward with it?

        Yeah, because the white house peititions have been so wonderful, they should move forward.

        http://theweek.com/article/ind... [theweek.com]

        Especially this one: Transfer funds from the drug war to fund the research and development of the genetic engineering of domestic cat girls. Total signatures: 838.

        I can't see why this one hasn't had more signatures. Maybe a conspiracy involving Batman.

        Another question, do you think Obama even reads them?

        I'd hope so! They're even better than the Onion.

        • Big difference between 838 signatures and over 61k signatures. I thought anything over 50k they had to do something.
          • At first it was 5 or 10k then eventually it got moved up to 50K and at present I believe it requires 100k signatures. And yes if it crosses what ever threshold they currently have set you can expect them to provide a patronizing response that at best says they are going to do the exact oppisite and you can go sit on it and spin or they bitch, moan, and dodge the petition.
    • by gl4ss ( 559668 )

      zero?

      you know why? because it's not an appropriate forum for them ;DDD.

    • "How many times has this administration embraced a petition and moved forward with it?"

      How many times has this administration helped make the U.S. government better for its citizens in any way?

      The U.S. government has been arranging that the rich get richer [nytimes.com], allowing the violent to be more violent [slashdot.org], and helping those who want to make money by killing people. [vanityfair.com]

      For example, the "Affordable Care Act" is, in my opinion, in the direction of other recent changes in government. Instead of 2 organizations betw
      • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Thursday January 08, 2015 @07:07AM (#48763497) Homepage Journal

        The ACA gathers money from those like myself who never get sick.

        Look, there are real problems with the ACA, but this is not one of them. This is how insurance works. The problem is that it's actually a system of graft from stem to stern. The health insurance companies must be eliminated if we are to have working health care in America. That's how you know the ACA is a lie. If it were meant to help us, the insurance companies would be gone, because we would no longer need them.

        • The ACA gathers money from those like myself who never get sick.

          Look, there are real problems with the ACA, but this is not one of them. This is how insurance works. The problem is that it's actually a system of graft from stem to stern. The health insurance companies must be eliminated if we are to have working health care in America. That's how you know the ACA is a lie. If it were meant to help us, the insurance companies would be gone, because we would no longer need them.

          But anything getting rid of the private health insurance companies would never have passed because Big Gubment can't tell those small business owners what to do.

        • That's not true. Most national health care covers the day-to-day things, like check ups in public clinics and hospitalizations in public hospitals. They only cover a portion of visits to private institutions and I believe they don't cover things like cosmetic surgeries (like removing a mole).

          There's still a place for health insurers with national health care. It's just a much smaller, less lucrative market. With national health care, the insurance companies would have to design and offer an actual product.

        • by sycodon ( 149926 )

          All you do by going to a single payer (Government) plans is move the Graft, Incompetence and Corruption to a single entity, which, BTW, has immunity from lawsuits.

          If Blue Cross won't pay for your Dick Enlargement, you can sue. If Uncle Sam won't, you are SOL.

        • I'm not sure the elimination of all private health insurance companies is required. Something I've learned by watching Healthcare Triage's International Health Care Systems playlist on YouTube [youtube.com] is that a lot of countries have great government health care systems available to the vast majority of the public plus private insurance options with which they can supplement what the government supplies. I don't see why the same sort of system couldn't work here in the US.
        • Are you saying that there is no working health care in Germany, the Netherlands, Japan or Switzerland?

          There is more than one way to make a "working" health care system. With sufficient regulation you can have an efficient health care system which utilizes private insurance companies (and private health care providers). Once properly regulated those insurance companies nolonger compete with eachother on who is best at denying care or filtering out the expensive patients, but rather on lowering administrative

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by JRV31 ( 2962911 )

        The ACA was announced and pretended to be in operation before the software was ready: How Obamacare's epic fail exposed our government's biggest tech problem. [theverge.com] Whoever is at the top of the U.S. government was obviously completely incompetent. (Often a U.S. president merely pretends to be in charge, hiding what is actually happening, and who is arranging it.)

        The President is very much a figurehead - he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it. Douglas Adams - Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

      • by Bonzoli ( 932939 )
        Oracle's sales teams do this all the time to business. Selling crap to people they really don't need has made many a company rich beyond reason. The cure for this is public college education, everyone would be smarter then. Preferably in hard sciences.

        How about instead of tearing things down and whining, you love your country enough to help make something work.

        "The ACA gathers money from those like myself who never get sick."
        You should understand at some point you will be sick, at that point
        • You should understand at some point you will be sick, at that point in your life you won't care about anything else other than getting better or dieing.

          This.

          Though the reality is that when it's needed most people struggling will ill be able to afford a several thousand dollar deductible be met first.

        • You should understand at some point you will be sick, at that point in your life you won't care about anything else other than getting better or dieing.

          If I'm sick I'll pay for it out of my own pocket.

          If I'm dying, I won't need to shell out money.

          The amount of money one pours down the black hole of insurance could easily pay for all but the most serious medical condition. When the money isn't being wasted, it could be used for other things such as food, housing, clothing or education.

          I
    • Depends on the amount attached, not of signatures, but of money.

  • by guises ( 2423402 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:17AM (#48762615)
    This is probably the best response possible to an "I demand you fire that person who has made me angry" rant. The petition could have asked for some reform to the prosecutorial discretion system which allowed her to hound Aaron in the first place, or maybe to the ridiculous wire fraud law that she used, but demanding the head of someone who annoys you is, one: ineffective scapegoaterry, and two: asinine entitlement.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:27AM (#48762633)

      ...but demanding the head of someone who annoys you is, one: ineffective scapegoaterry, and two: asinine entitlement.

      Not sure if you're trolling (in the classic sense) but I'll bite.

      This wasn't just about a random stranger wearing ugly socks. This was a government official abusing their official authority for personal gain. As you note, there may be a broader issue that prosecutors have no legitimate need for such authority but expecting government officials to (only) use their power for the benefit of the people generally is hardly "asinine entitlement". And it's not scapegoating if the person actually did the thing that people are angry about.

      • by guises ( 2423402 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @03:03AM (#48762717)
        It's scapegoating in that it's pinning the problem onto a single person, who ultimately isn't responsible for a systematic issue. This is not a case of crooked individual undermining a fair and just system - what she did was commonplace, it just doesn't usually happen to someone with whom you've heard of and sympathize with. Saying, "Let's get her!" and then going home satisfied that you've beaten the bad guy is exactly how this sort of thing is allowed to continue.

        Note: I am not defending her any more than I'd defend the gangster used as a classical scapegoat. Neither of their hands are clean. Does she deserve to be fired? I don't know, maybe, but it wouldn't actually do anything.
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          It's scapegoating in that it's pinning the problem onto a single person, who ultimately isn't responsible for a systematic issue.

          So if there's a lot of crime in a neighborhood then it's scapegoating to punish someone who commits a crime in that neighborhood?

          Saying, "Let's get her!" and then going home satisfied that you've beaten the bad guy is exactly how this sort of thing is allowed to continue.

          Doing nothing,as you seem to be advocating by agreeing with Obama, is also a pretty good way to let it continue.

          Does she deserve to be fired? I don't know, maybe, but it wouldn't actually do anything.

          The president doesn't make the laws nor does he determine the interpretation of the laws. He has a limited capacity to veto laws - and hopefully we'll see a lot of the in the next couple years. The president's power is to exercise discretion in the execution of the laws

        • Does she deserve to be fired ? She drove someone to suicide over a non crime. Yeah she shouldn't be in a position to repeat the action and clearly doesn't have the temperament for the job.

          • damned straight!

            lets use the concept of 'maybe the next evil bastard will think twice before ruining a life for personal gain', here.

            ie, DETERRENT.

            that's what law enforcement is all about, right? RIGHT??

            so lets use their tools on them. scare the shit out of them so that they will think twice next time before they fuck someone in the ass.

            'they all do it' is NO excuse! they don't allow citizens to use that excuse when normal people ignore a law and do what they 'felt' was right.

        • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @04:29AM (#48762969) Homepage Journal

          I'm all for firing each and every participant in the systemic issue. Systematically.

          However, we only happen to know of one or two at the moment, so let's start there and work our way out.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          So to be clear, those choices that she made were not her choices, and its scapegoating to want her fired for making those choices because 'the system'.

          Nope, she made the choice to load on bogus charges to try to force a plea bargain, that was her choice within her power. She also did a lot a press work around the same time promoting herself and making statements that called into question her grasp of legal principles like 'theft'.

          She is not a scapegoat, she is an bad prosecutor.

        • It's scapegoating in that it's pinning the problem onto a single person, who ultimately isn't responsible for a systematic issue.

          Yeah, they were just doing their job.

          what she did was commonplace, it just doesn't usually happen to someone with whom you've heard of and sympathize with

          Oh, so that makes it okay then.

          Saying, "Let's get her!" and then going home satisfied that you've beaten the bad guy is exactly how this sort of thing is allowed to continue.

          No. Saying "what she did was commonplace" is exactly how this sort of thing is allowed to continue. Thanks for doing your part!

          I am not defending her

          Yes, yes you are. And you're in denial about it. If you knew what you were doing, you'd be a traitor.

        • by Bob9113 ( 14996 )

          Note: I am not defending her any more than I'd defend the gangster used as a classical scapegoat. Neither of their hands are clean. Does she deserve to be fired? I don't know, maybe, but it wouldn't actually do anything.

          So you do what you do with gangsters. You take her down, and let her off easy if she implicates her superiors. You don't just shrug and say, "Oh well."

        • I see your point except for this:

          "Saying, "Let's get her!" and then going home satisfied that you've beaten the bad guy is exactly how this sort of thing is allowed to continue."

          That doesn't make sense. If we get one bad prosecutor fired, that is a disincentive to the other prosecutors to be bad. Do you see it differently?

          • by guises ( 2423402 )
            Oh for the sake of Pete... I wrote a lengthy reply to this, but then my hand brushed the back button. I'm not going to try to write it again, short answer: Yes, I see it differently. I think the difference is that because what she was doing is so commonplace, other prosecutors are not going to see her as a "bad prosecutor" because they don't see themselves as bad. They're going to see people making an example out of her the same way that she tried to make an example out of Aaron and ask themselves, privatel
    • by Lennie ( 16154 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @08:32AM (#48763937)

      There was a law (amendment) proposed, it got shot down:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      Also notice the last line on Wikipedia says:
      "As of May 2014, Aaron's Law was stalled in committee, reportedly due to tech company Oracle's financial interests.[42]"

  • by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:28AM (#48762637) Journal

    ...for Whitehouse.gov as a platform to spur/enact popular initiatives?
    0 for 15,000?

    Do I believe that 5000 internet dorks signing a petition should compel action from the government? Not at all.
    Do I believe that having such a forum should be useful to a government to see what things are 'catching the public's attention'? Sure.
    Do I believe that Whitehouse.gov petition site was *mainly* meant as an anodyne to Obama supporters to make them *feel* connected when in effect it is actually meaningless? Absolutely. I believe the actual record of initiatives that came from this proves my point over what, 7 years?

    • ...for Whitehouse.gov as a platform to spur/enact popular initiatives?
      0 for 15,000?

      The cell phone unlocking petition actually accomplished something. Then again, the government has never really liked phone companies.

    • by mrg17 ( 36780 )

      I would like to see a bit more comment on whether the statement starting "Consistent with the terms we laid out when we began We the People" is true in response - if it is then srely the complains should be able the terms rather than about the response to this petition?

  • by Kohath ( 38547 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:30AM (#48762643)

    This is one reason why some of us want to stop giving the government more power. Because they can never be held accountable when they misuse that power and hurt people. No one in power is ever guilty of anything. Care and recklessness are rewarded equally.

    It's easy to say you're for "openness" (and whatever other buzzwords) when you never have to actually live up to any sort of standards. Why should anyone listen or believe or trust? Apparently, we shouldn't.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by umafuckit ( 2980809 )

      This is one reason why some of us want to stop giving the government more power.

      And there is some truth to this. However, some of you (and it may not include you) seem to think that the government having less power is always better and is often the answer to problems. Neither of those things are true.

      • The government having less power may not always be the answer but it's almost never a problem. We managed to do very well for several centuries with much less government than we have now. (edit: Seeing as I am sure someone will pointlessly nitpick, I am including the colonial period)

        • I disagree. There are many instances where the government legislating on stuff is important. Off the top of my head: child labour laws, environmental pollution control, regulating where people can build to preserve wilderness areas. I believe none of those are things the US had 100 years ago, but they're all things I think most people would rather keep.
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by Crashmarik ( 635988 )

            Child labor laws are largely irrelevant due to rising standards of living. Families would put kids out on the street to fend for themselves at a much earlier age. Ask yourself what the alternative is letting the kid go hungry because they are having hard times ? Of course these days the question is likely moot due to reasons contained in the second response.

            Environmental laws are a good bit of what moved our manufacturing to China. Hard to argue that isn't at best a mixed bag. It also decimated what were ma

            • I can see we will not agree on this one.
              • Let me leave you with a few questions then. Do you think Illegal immigrants follow any of our labor laws ? Why are they so willing to make the deal ?

                • Sorry, I've not been following the immigration thing: I left the US last May and haven't been reading that kind of news since.
                  • The Idea is pretty basic. If you legislate in a manner that makes it harder to employ children or any people in particular have you really done people that need the work a favor ?

      • by Kohath ( 38547 )

        However, some of you (and it may not include you) seem to think that the government having less power is always better and is often the answer to problems.

        Sometimes you can't solve problems. Less government power is the answer to not creating new problems.

        When you have a non-government problem, you can often escape it or fix it for yourself or at least mitigate it somewhat. When it's the government causing problems, it's a lot harder to deal with.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 08, 2015 @02:47AM (#48762673)

    ..we do not believe this is the appropriate forum in which to do so.

    Presumably if the White House believed that such a forum existed, it would have mentioned it. So, essentially, the White House is saying that no forum exists to "address agency personnel matters". But one of the main things the president is supposed to do is insure that good people are executing the laws and policies of the USA.

    Sometimes I wonder if Obama wakes up in the morning, looks himself in the mirror, and says "How can I undermine the American public's faith in democracy?" People were angry with all the nonsense that was going on in the Bush presidency and they elected Obama with the hope that he would change it. But he hasn't. It's like he's trying his best to prove that democracy doesn't work.

    Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan are widely regarded as some of the very worst presidents in the history of the USA. They were all about civility and comprise and the rule of law - pretty much just like Obama. But then Lincoln came along did what he had to do to get rid of slavery - civil war, suspension of habeas corpus, etc. And he's remembered as one of the best presidents in the history of the United States.

    Obama hides behind bureaucracy in order to excuse his moral cowardice. Fine, he's gotta be who he is. But he shouldn't be surprised when he goes down in history with the likes of Pierce and Buchanan.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by virtualXTC ( 609488 )
      If I were a mod, I won't know whether to mod you at Troll or Insightful: Your history lesson on Buchanan and Pierce vs Lincoln was enlightening, but you are totally overlooking the shit-stained victory that is ObamaCare - At this point there's no way the republican's can appeal it, it would cause a mass uprising now that people realize Obamacare isn't really going to kill grandma, and makes it easier to stay insured (COBRA was a ripoff) if your unemployment insurance runs out, or if you decide to become an
      • and makes it easier to stay insured (COBRA was a ripoff)

        Oh, COBRA was a ripoff? Well then, I'm sure that you'll lose your verve for the ACA when I inform you that it would cost me just as much to get health care independently now as it did the last time I was offered COBRA coverage. So either COBRA was a pretty fair price, and your employer was really paying a lot for health care, or the ACA is a ripoff, just like COBRA. And you know it's a ripoff because the insurance companies are involved. You know why it costs so much to get that health care? Because the ins

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by aralin ( 107264 )

      Look, the constitution guarantees you right to petition government for redress of grievances. There is no guarantee for the government to address those grievances. They made a website, you can petition them, so the constitution is served. Move on citizen. If you like your congress representative, you can keep your congress representative. If you don't like your congress representative, tough luck, you are stuck with him anyway. Demagogracy 101.

  • *cough* *cough* fuck off *cough* *cough*
  • Change the policy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Roodvlees ( 2742853 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @04:18AM (#48762943)
    If you want the internet to remain open and free, then why are you allowing copyright to lock it down?
  • You voted for it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 08, 2015 @06:05AM (#48763263)

    Joe Biden is the copyright industry's puppet and was paid to introduce hard prison time for copyright violation:
    http://www.cnet.com/news/joe-bidens-pro-riaa-pro-fbi-tech-voting-record/

    Note the date. This was already known before Obama's first election. The copyright industry bought themselves the vice presidency.

    And all of Slashdot, reddit, etc. looked away, nanana I can't hear you, and voted for that. You voted for this strong prosecution, which Biden implemented as instructed to. The White House are hypocrite psychopaths if they are denying it. The voters are huge hypocrites if they are complaining about it - they shouldn't have voted on this policy. And they will deny it and look away, and vote psychopaths into power again. How fucking convenient for everybody.

    • Sorry, but Kodos looked equally fruity as a nutcase.

      And for the record, I didn't vote for either. Even if I was able to I would not. Why bother? The choice you have is which dick screws you. Does that matter?

      Didn't you notice? GOP, DEM, they're identical in all relevant factors. The only reason they make such a huge fuss over it is that they want to be the mugger robbing you instead of the other mugger over there. It's like walking down a bad neighborhood and having muggers on both sides of the road and you

    • There's one thing we can all be thankful for: unlike just about every other VP of a two term president, nobody's likely to nominate Biden to run for the presidency.

  • The petition system is truly ingenious.

    It's a way for the administration to line up 10-, 20-, 30-, 100-thousand people who think the administration is wrong, and then have delivered to them a customized message which tells the signers how wrong they are about things on a very specific topic.

    The White House Petitions are designed to serve the administration, not the citizenry.

    • It does remind someone of the "suggestion box" you could find in some companies, doesn't it? Where you can dump your suggestions in which are being routinely ignored until someone comes up with a half thought through idea that they actually wanted to implement but didn't dare to, knowing that the resistance would be enormous, but with the suggestion they can then say "Hey, YOU wanted us to!"

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @06:25AM (#48763351)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • The problem with such things is that failures in the legal process leads to vigilantism. Say, how immune is a prosecutor to a .45?

  • 'nuff said

    • Yes he can!

      Nobody said anything about DOING anything, though. Fuck, people, learn to read and understand the implied meaning.

  • by Psychotria ( 953670 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @07:11AM (#48763517)

    What is the appropriate forum to get the agency to address these matters?

    • Judging from recent events, I think the correct way to be taken serious by a government is to make people grab weapons or suicide bomb belts and blow up parts of the inner city. Then you suddenly go from being ignored to being invited to ethical discussions about the future of the country.

  • Swartz was an idiot, not a hero. Stop making him a religious idol. Has anyone criticized Carmen Ortiz for the prosecution that her office led on Whitey Bulger or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?

    No, they have not. This petition isn't about Carmen Ortiz, it is about more people trying to make a hero out of a fool. Carmen Ortiz worked hard to get to where she is, don't paint her as a super-villian just because Swartz crapped himself when he realized how stupid his choices were.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 08, 2015 @08:23AM (#48763875)

      Carmen Ortiz worked hard to get to where she is,...

      So did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.

      But what I don't get is the idea that there needs to be a high threshold for replacing people in positions of power. I mean, as a lower level scientist I could end up not getting my contract renewed for any number of reasons ranging from not quite enough available funding, to not churning out quite enough publications, to the boss deciding that my personality isn't quite the right fit for the team. If anything, we should have even higher standards for people in positions of power - if they so much as wear a pair of socks that doesn't match the rest of their ensemble then kick them to the curb and replace them with somebody better. If janitors need to lay awake in the wee hours of the morning with cold fear in the pits of their stomachs that they might not be able to feed their families because of inadequate job performance then high level government officials should fear much worse.

      • But what I don't get is the idea that there needs to be a high threshold for replacing people in positions of power

        The case never went to court, it was only beginning to take shape when Swartz took the easy way out in hopes of making himself into some sort of twisted martyr. We will never be able to say whether or not Ortiz would have done a good job as a prosecutor or not as the case never went through. I'm not saying we need impossibly high standards for removing someone from their job, I'm merely saying we can't say whether or not she did a good job prosecuting this case as it never reached any kind of trial or ve

    • by Trailer Trash ( 60756 ) on Thursday January 08, 2015 @09:30AM (#48764323) Homepage

      Swartz was an idiot, not a hero. Stop making him a religious idol. Has anyone criticized Carmen Ortiz for the prosecution that her office led on Whitey Bulger or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?

      No, they have not. This petition isn't about Carmen Ortiz, it is about more people trying to make a hero out of a fool. Carmen Ortiz worked hard to get to where she is, don't paint her as a super-villian just because Swartz crapped himself when he realized how stupid his choices were.

      You're creating a false dichotomy where either Swartz was a hero or Ortiz is a hero. In fact, neither is a terribly respectable character.

      The issue with Ortiz's prosecution was that she offered him a plea deal of 6 months with the alternative of prosecuting him with charges that would carry up to 50 years in jail and $1,000,000 in fines. If she thought the crime was worth 6 months in jail then she should have simply prosecuted it as such (and frankly should be forced to prosecute it as such since she obviously can't be trusted with any discretion).

      She's scum. That doesn't mean that Swartz is some kind of hero.

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