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The Military United States Technology

US Army Wants Weapon To Destroy Drone Swarms 208

An anonymous reader writes: The U.S. military loves to use drones against enemies who have no defense against them: think terrorist cells, ISIS/IS/ISIL, the Taliban etc. However, drones are getting cheaper to make, easier to use, and more technologically sophisticated. The day is coming when U.S. military planners will have to defend against drones. And they may have to fight off lots of them.

They already seem to have some ideas — their research proposal says such an anti-drone weapon would "disrupt these platforms' autonomous flight-control and navigation capabilities or cueing a weapons system like the Remotely-Operated Weapon Station (RWS) or other medium or large-caliber weapon." The system would be mounted on vehicles or at Army installations. More interesting, the Army proposal also notes that it might be mounted on UAVs, which raises the possibility of using drones to shoot down other drones.
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US Army Wants Weapon To Destroy Drone Swarms

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  • That would be (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:26PM (#48862509)

    an EMP!

    • by mveloso ( 325617 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:50PM (#48862619)

      The problem with an EMP is you can't focus it. Focus an EMP and blast the electronics out of the sky. If anything you could disrupt the motors.

      These things are going to become a major problem. If you have enough of them, you could outfit them with grapeshot and basically saturate an area. If they're cheap enough you could cover a really, really, really large area. Put lots of plastic explosive on them and you could do some serious damage to buildings and depots.

      Today, a drone swarm would be basically unstoppable. Take a bunch of parrot AR drones and some plastic explosive and you'd be able to destroy or heavily damage any facility from afar. Good luck trying to stop them with anything.

      • by pushing-robot ( 1037830 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:41PM (#48862793)

        The problem with an EMP is you can't focus it.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V... [wikipedia.org]

      • IMO they should consider a Battlestar Galactica style flak shield.

        • by racermd ( 314140 )

          I had this thought pretty much immediately, as well. However, at the current sizes of commercially-available "drones", the military already has a such a system that could be easily adapted for anti-drone use - chaff.

          Otherwise, if they can be detected using radar, IR, etc., a CWIS-style system (though probably a little lighter caliber round) would be just as effective.

          • I had this thought pretty much immediately, as well. However, at the current sizes of commercially-available "drones", the military already has a such a system that could be easily adapted for anti-drone use - chaff.

            Chaff falls out of the sky quickly - you'd probably want proximity shells full of it (plus some BBs), or a flail drone.

      • These things are going to become a major problem. If you have enough of them, you could outfit them with grapeshot and basically saturate an area. If they're cheap enough you could cover a really, really, really large area. Put lots of plastic explosive on them and you could do some serious damage to buildings and depots.

        That is what mortars do, an they do it quite a bit cheaper.

        • Mortars have horrible accuracy, you would be lucky to get within a hundred yards of a particular target with a conventional mortar. Whats more they are easy to spot for return fire.

          • You are terribly out of date. I've seen guys hit a target a few hundred meters behind a hill with surprising accuracy. The first mortar misses, every one after that falls dead-on.

            • Well I would be the first to admit I am old and in my day yeah mortars were about the cheapest artillery you could get. Is that still true ? I know there was work on smart shells and automated mortars awhile back, which begs the question how cheap are they now.

              • I don't know how much they cost, but they don't look much more than oversized M203 shells from what I remember. I'm not referring to 'smart' shells, but rather a skilled operator and probably very fine manufacturing tolerances (which allow the repeatability). They were being aimed by kicking the tube a bit to the left, a small shove to the right :)

                • Mortars are not going to disappear because they are useful, but there are many known practical countermeasures to mortars, including mortar counter fire.

                  Drones offer a special new kind of threat because it is easy to imagine them having the intelligence to home in from many locales miles away and create an overwhelming & lethal swarm in a particular area. The ability to mass firepower is a basic combat strategy. Drones offer new ways to mass firepower quicker than ever from disparate military units sp

      • The problem is plastic explosives are difficult to focus. Try blowing up a building using at drones. You need to blow one up for every window. And most doors will require several drones with explosives to get through.

        To get a better idea of the effectiveness of kamkize attacks review the pacific sea battles of world war 2. You need to expend a lot of ordnance for minimal damage.

        Shove a firecracker up your ass and blow apart your legs. Set a firecracker off at your feet and you might get burned. Explosive

        • The problem is plastic explosives are difficult to focus. Try blowing up a building using at drones. You need to blow one up for every window. And most doors will require several drones with explosives to get through.

          ... I think you need to step back and reconsider this post.

          First, plastic explosives are easy to focus. I've watched EOD guys do it by hand.

          If you're using 'kamikaze drones', I feel the need to point out that we already have them under a different name. They're called 'Missiles'. Blowing up a building would only require multiple missiles if you're using undersized ones for some reason - trying to limit the damage to neighboring buildings, the building itself is huge and armored, etc...

          200kg of explosives

          • Update: Actually went back and read the GP. I take back most of my post - a swarm of tiny drones with miniscule charges aren't going to do much. If you want to destroy a building, bite the bullet, build a big(ish) missile and hit the target with that.

            Not that a tiny swarm couldn't be useful - it's a standard axiom that properly distributed charges can do more damage than a single large one. The problem with tiny drones is the 'proper' part.

            A couple dozen explosions on the lower levels of a building, eve

      • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

        "Take a bunch of parrot AR drones and some plastic explosive and you'd be able to destroy or heavily damage any facility from afar."
        No not really. I do not care if you take 500 AR drones and put plastic explosives on them you will not damage a bunker. The do not carry enough. Now if you used shaped charges maybe but even that is going to be iffy at best.

  • by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:31PM (#48862531)
    No way ISIS can win against the Federal Aviation Administration.
  • by Champaklal ( 3411751 ) <spam...me...bich@@@outlook...com> on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @10:34PM (#48862551)
    How about using infrared beams to disrupt or just plain simple water sprinklers (using some heavy oil) to make the fins too heavy to fly?
    • Better yet just up the output on one of these things [wikipedia.org]. It isn't like they aren't already on a heavy vehicle with a large engine capable of outputting several hundred KW. Since it would be used against drones you don't have to worry about the rules of war and what you can use against people. On second thought the very existence of one capable of taking out a drone would mean it would get used against people.
  • belt-fed buckshot machine gun seems like a cheaper solution.
    • buckshot

      Oh, I think we'll see something new on the shelves really soon from Remington, Federal, Winchester, Fiocchi, etc.

      Droneshot

      • by Jawnn ( 445279 )

        buckshot

        Oh, I think we'll see something new on the shelves really soon from Remington, Federal, Winchester, Fiocchi, etc.

        Droneshot

        That, or just ask the licensed drone hunters [yahoo.com] in Colorado what load they're using.

      • Well, the best defense to a swarm of drones is a swarm of vastly greater numbers of smaller, cheaper drones, likely with lower range. I guess buckshot more or less is collapsing that escalation towards the end-game.<br><br>Now, self-guided droneshot... that's the ticket.
    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      The US has a few issues with that. An older working system is not a new boondoggle.
      A new system can be exported and then has to have new support contracts. Nations are then fully locked deep into US export grade command and control systems.
      The other fear is reload time and the computer systems tracking a lot of moving objects.
      Exocet or a few 1970's Soviet systems?
    • Looks like expensive overkill, and not all that suitable for vehicle mounting. But a similar weapon using short range radar and a gun firing buckshot could be made a lot smaller, lighter and cheaper. Sounds like an interesting hobby project actually, though I'm not to keen on homebrew projects involving computer controlled firearms.

      Maybe these guys [youtube.com] are on to something...
  • Like the old fashioned barrage balloons? or is that too simple?

    • Nobody, but nobody is going to hand over many billions of dollars to develop "a big net", so no... its way to simple, obvious and probably workable for the defence industry to get involved with.

  • It doesn't take much to take down a drone, so a little flak ought to do wonders. That or AEGIS systems and conventional ammunition.
    • Yep.. AEGIS sounds about right, at least for somewhat close range. I imagine that new laser technologies will probably end up being the most effective.
    • And how fast do the drones they expect to face fly? Much more slowly than a missile I'd wager.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    They already have a substantial network of directed energy weapon technology, which are quite capable of remotely knocking drones out of the sky, through a variety of means including destruction and EMP to disable it. There's also remote control potential through Signals Intelligence. I don't think the US is in true danger of attack as they say..

    In fact this is patented technology. Look up Raytheon's multi-functional radio frequency directed energy system. That patent says,

    "An RFDE system includes an RFDE t

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Flak (Score:4, Informative)

    by Karmashock ( 2415832 ) on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:39PM (#48862787)

    A very simple WW2 weapon that worked very well against tightly clustered enemy airplanes.

    It doesn't work as well today for a lot of reasons but mostly it is that you don't see raids by 100 bombers anymore.

    If you want to drop SWARMS of flying aircraft, flak is great. They bunch up and they die the same way everyone in a foxhole dies if someone throws a grenade in there. It doesn't matter if there were ten people in that fox hole... they're done.

    Same thing with flak. Set it up so it is computer controlled with timed fuses the same way they had timed fuses in WW2.

    In WW2, the flak shells were set to explode at specific altitudes that the bombers were all flying in. So you could have massed flak fire from the ground all detonating in the flight path of the bomber swarm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    Ships still use Flak to defend themselves. I believe they call it "defensive artillery"... the concept being that if a missile is coming at the ship, they can fire a salvo of exploding shells to create a wall of death that the missile cannot cross intact.

    The same thing could be used against a swarm of small drones.

    • Re:Flak (Score:4, Interesting)

      by CrimsonAvenger ( 580665 ) on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @07:21AM (#48864041)

      FYI, Flak is a German acronym for Anti-Aircraft Artillery.

      It should also be noted that it wasn't terribly effective at stopping bombers. Note the second Schweinfurt raid as an example (considered to be one of the worst raids for damage to the attacking planes) - 291 unescorted bombers, set upon by both enemy fighters and flak, lost only 60 bombers (another dozen or so were so badly damaged they were scrapped AFTER they got back home).

      • The losses of US and UK bombers in the day was a serious problem actually. The enemy fighters worked nearly as well at night as during the day. But enemy flak during the night was not nearly as accurate.

      • Losing 60 bombers out of 291 is plenty good enough--they may not have stopped that raid, but there's no way you can sustain a bombing effort with those kinds of losses. Fortunately, the Schweinfurt raid was exceptionally bad--and flak, by the way, was responsible for only a small part of those losses. German fighters were the main line of defense against Allied bombers, not flak. Until the invention of surface-to-air missiles, ground fire was little more than an annoyance to most aerial attacks.

    • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

      That style of FLAK is not effective any longer and really was never very effective. We still have AAA today but the gun is radar or ir directed and the shells use proximity fuzes.
      The real issue that the drone will be low altitude and the shells would be going off very near your own troops... Not a good solution. At sea it would be better.

      • We're talking about low flying, slow, unarmored toy drones... A flak shell will fucking murder those things. Kindly stop repeating something you misheard in a documentary.

        Flak was very effective in WW2. If it were not then why were the bombers flying at such a high altitude? Have any idea what the survival rate of bombers would be if they flew a bit above tree level? Ground fire would annihilate them.

        The B17s could operate at well above 6 miles above sea level. Why were they flying that high? Were they tryi

  • by mi ( 197448 ) <slashdot-2017q4@virtual-estates.net> on Tuesday January 20, 2015 @11:51PM (#48862825) Homepage Journal

    Ukrainian troops fighting in the East of the country suffer a great deal from the separatists' Russia-provided drones — those transmit signals to Russian artillery right across the border, which then targets Ukrainians with devastating precision. If they could kick those drones out of the sky, life would become much easier.

    It would seem, any counter-measure America can help with could be field-tested right away — all without hurting a single human enemy.

    How to do it? I used to think, small rockets could be used. Miniaturized copies of the early SAMs, created by the long declassified designs — current generation of drones aren't really made for evading such a thing...

    • How to do it? I used to think, small rockets could be used. Miniaturized copies of the early SAMs, created by the long declassified designs — current generation of drones aren't really made for evading such a thing...

      The problem with fighting $500 drones with $100,000 missiles is that your enemy can drain you financially very quickly. This is the same mistake that the IDF has made with the Iron Dome: the thing is so expensive that, barring loss of life, it would cost less to just repair whatever damage the Hamas missiles do rather than to shoot them down.

      • by mi ( 197448 )

        The problem with fighting $500 drones with $100,000 missiles

        You got the equation wrong. Your numbers may be in the ballpark for the IDF vs. Arabs situation — where the cheap but fast-traveling unguided missiles require expensive and sophisticated interception.

        The military drones cost a lot more than $500 — they require avionics, reliable remote control, cameras with decent optics, etc. They are also flying a lot slower and so can be intercepted much easier — by a much cheaper missile. Oh,

  • Hollywood predicted the future [wikipedia.org].

  • by aaaaaaargh! ( 1150173 ) on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @04:22AM (#48863593)

    Drones against drones seems to be finally the right way to spend military expenditures. Anything is better than continuing to use drones against innocent people in deliberate political killings on souvereign foreign soil conducted outside of police authority, judicial oversight and jurisdiction and violating ratified human rights chartas.

  • Robotic warfare (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wvmarle ( 1070040 ) on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @04:37AM (#48863635)

    No doubt, these drones will be more and more automatic, where commands from their human controllers become more and more abstract. Maybe now they're being flown like an RC aircraft, soon it'll be "go to this location, launch bomb to hit that location", or "fly search patterns in this area and shoot anything that doesn't respond to your coded signals out of the sky".

    And so, step by step, we enter the era of robotic warfare. No matter how often the various militaries and politicians pledge that this will not happen.

    • No doubt, these drones will be more and more automatic, where commands from their human controllers become more and more abstract. Maybe now they're being flown like an RC aircraft, soon it'll be "go to this location, launch bomb to hit that location", or "fly search patterns in this area and shoot anything that doesn't respond to your coded signals out of the sky".

      And so, step by step, we enter the era of robotic warfare. No matter how often the various militaries and politicians pledge that this will not happen.

      Neil Stephenson brought this idea right down to nano level in The Diamond Age

  • There's this machine that can shoot lots of mosquitoes out of the air with lasers.
    Just upgrade the lasers.

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @07:30AM (#48864073)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Old school AA (Score:2, Insightful)

    The solutions presented seem overly complex and over engineered to me.

    Given shotgun are effective against small fast targets like birds I would expect a rapid fire automatic shotgun to be at least effective against the small & miniature infantry support drones. Also using air burst ammo for existing grenade launchers.

    Against larger drones then use rapid fire AA guns with air burst cannon shells.

  • Why not just build robots to do all the work instead, so we were not using drones to prop up repressive social orders based on wage slavery?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W... [wikipedia.org]

    "Joshua: A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00... [imdb.com]

  • Seriously, they need lower joule rail gun that can fire lots. It does not need to shoot 100 miles, but only 10 miles. BUT, it needs to shoot a larger numbers of rounds, more like a Gatling or Phalanx gun. And for further out, laser.

As you will see, I told them, in no uncertain terms, to see Figure one. -- Dave "First Strike" Pare

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