Use Astrology To Save Britain's Health System, Says MP 320
An anonymous reader writes: An MP from the governing Conservative Party has said that using astrology could radically improve the performance of Britain's National Health Service and that its opponents are "racially prejudiced" and driven by "superstition, ignorance and prejudice." David Treddinick even claims he has "helped" fellow legislators through astrology.
Oblig (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/aortic-aneurysms-caused-by-movement-of-saturn-admits-nhs-2015022595714
Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately it's real. Tredinnick has been infamous [wikipedia.org] for these sorts of comments for years now.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Insightful)
I blame the people that voted him in. Politicians are the result, voters are the cause.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Insightful)
Did the voters really have a choice? For a start the choice at the general election is for both the ruling party and local MP, so if your national party of choice puts up an idiot as your local candidate you can support one or the other but not both.
Tredinnick had a 9% majority in 2010, ahead of the the Liberal Democrats. Their vote has collapsed now though... The most realistic alternative might be UKIP in his constituency. So it's a choice between someone who believes in astrology and closet racists, or maybe treacherous liars if the LDs can pull it back together.
We rejected the alternative vote and I imagine would reject PR on similar grounds (too thick to understand it), so this is what we are going to be stuck with for the foreseeable future.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Funny)
Did the voters really have a choice?
No, it was in the stars.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Insightful)
On the bright side, it's nice to be able to point to this guy when some European elitist claims that Americans (or more specifically, southerners) somehow have a monopoly on unscientific idiocy.
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This is UK, they don't really count as European (true Scotsmen usually do, but this MP isn't)
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm getting a feeling that most people here are going to say some incredibly anti-democratic things in here in a moment without even realising it.
Reality is, democratically elected parliament isn't supposed to be a bunch of elites but a cross-section of electorate. That means it needs to have a few superstitious people to be able to properly represent the population which also has such people in statistically significant amounts.
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"Reality is, democratically elected parliament isn't supposed to be a bunch of elites but a cross-section of electorate."
Yes and no.
No they are not supposed to be elites in fact the whole idea of anyone being elite is counter to a democracy society in my opinion. But the UK does seem to like there royals and giving people knighthoods.
But the people elected are supposed to be the best person to represent the population and that should include again IMHO a certain level of education and intelligence.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Informative)
I could see that in a proportional-representation system. If 10% of the population is really into homeopathy, they could vote for a party that represents those interests. But the UK has a first-past-the-post system, like the US, meaning members are elected by getting the most votes in a specific district. Is Tredinnick's district really majority in favor of astrology being funded by the NHS? My guess is no, and that he's elected despite this issue, not because of it. Incumbents are very hard to knock off, especially outside of marginal districts (his district is a Conservative stronghold, and the UK has no party primaries), so he keeps winning regardless of whether his district's residents think astrology is useful or not.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Funny)
Homeopathy works better the fewer people believe in it.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Interesting)
"Reality is, democratically elected parliament isn't supposed to be a bunch of elites but a cross-section of electorate. That means it needs to have a few superstitious people to be able to properly represent the population which also has such people in statistically significant amounts."
We let the people who can cook well be cooks, the people who drive well be drivers, etc. etc. Except politicians. Apparently it is perfectly possible to run a country without any qualifications (except perhaps the skill to convince other to vote for you). Or by averaging the opinion of milions of people. That is a terrible kind of democracy.
I would like politicians to pass various exams before they're allowed to "rule". (Logical reasoning, fallacies, decision making).
I would like anyone to be able to comment on whatever is up for vote (in a moderated system where any comment is allowed only once). So, a single individual could change the outcome, by having a strong argument or a better idea, benefitting everyone.
Why choose for a form of democracy that results in mediocrity, instead of excellence?
Bert
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And he's part of the Conservative Party instead of the Silly Party [youtube.com]?
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm actually wondering what the result would be if they began implementing this.
From a pure biological point of view it's ofcourse pure bullshit.
But we can hardly deny that our current doctors just suck with the psychological side of feeling bad/illnesses. A lot of the power in "alternative medicine" is to support the people mentally, which as the placebo effect shows also helps quite a bit. It doesn't cure your cancer, but adding some spiritual side to the process that doesn't treat the people as patient #145563255 might actually give quite a positive result.
I think that no longer ignoring the psychological needs of people who are ill is one of the next big medical challenges. I've read people who fought cancer who said that the interaction with doctors & staff is also one of the hardest things. They seem to think you should be able to deal with all the shit that comes with it yourself and be fully informed and pay attention to every detail etc... while you're feeling like shit due to chemotherapy and are trying to resolve everything in your life before it's too late.
Now we seem to have 2 branches of "medicine". One that cures your body, but doesn't care much about your mind. And one that's full of "you should feel good and be happy" but doesn't know shit about your body (well, depending on the alternative medicine. there are some that do know some things, but still won't cure cancer).
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You seem to ignore psychology.
The problem is basically funding, highly trained professionals getting not enough resources to helt people.
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean in common treatment. Unless you complain about psychological issues (or act really really weird), you won't see anyone who really cares about your mental status. People with serious illnesses who go to modern medicine for treatment end up in a pharmacological & scientific world where their body will be scanned, probed, checked, double checked, analysed, etc.... they'll be given substances & treatments to cure whatever they find. But psychological assistance to go along with this just doesn't belong in that world it seems. You're here for cancer, not for feeling good about yourself.
And i think we still vastly underestimate how much also feeling good actually helps us get trough things, and helps our body going in such grave situations.
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You seem to ignore psychology.
The problem is basically funding, highly trained professionals getting not enough resources to helt people.
You mean psychiatry. Psychology is a not a medical discipline and therefore treatment by a psychologist is actually alternative treatment.
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You're surprised by politicians being scientifically clueless? I guess you can't be an American....
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Yeah, I was thinking Texas, in particular.
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This might work... But not because astrology works, but because enough people believe in it.
If someone believes in their horoscope and says today should be a good day to be adventurous, they may use that day to take more risks, and injure themselves in the process. Or the fact that particular stars are visible during different seasons. So while Orion is visible, then there is a higher chance to get the flu.
Astrology isn't science, but it is just a bunch of data loosely correlated with results. These data co
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Is...is this real? Not some wayward story from The Onion?
If you are old enough, perhaps you will remember Nancy Reagan...
Re:Please tell me this is satire (Score:4, Insightful)
The Onion is not fake, they are just ahead of reality. They predicted:
- RIAA sues radio stations for playing free music
- Gillette creates 5-blade razor
- Neil Armstrong's widow cleans out closet of "space crap" (finds museum gems)
- Joe The Plumber ("dude" pundit)
- Charlie Sheen going violent
- Newly elected Bush announcing era of peace and prosperity is over (911, Iraq, mortgage crash)
- Ann Coulter saying radiation good for you. (Oh wait, Onion missed that one.)
I still have hope ... (Score:2)
... that this is all a dream and I'm going to wake up.
He is linking homeopathy to astrology (Score:5, Insightful)
"Ninety per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy. Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
At first, I have failed to see the common ground between homeopathy and astrology - these two sentences sounded completely unrelated. But they are actually related - it says
"90% of French women are gullible enough to fall for homeopathy. This means that most of them are stupid enough to also believe astrology crap, so market is ripe"
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Sounds like Bill Nye needs to lambast Britain and France next since he had so much fun calling out Americans for irrational behavior
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"Ninety per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy. Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
At first, I have failed to see the common ground between homeopathy and astrology - these two sentences sounded completely unrelated. But they are actually related - it says "90% of French women are gullible enough to fall for homeopathy. This means that most of them are stupid enough to also believe astrology crap, so market is ripe"
That would be true only if all French women are pregnant.
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Well, amount of pregnant women is big enough to be representative. Unless there is a selection bias which links pregnacy to stupidity/gullability...
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The stat about French women is a lie. Even if he means it in the sense that "90% of pregnant French women drink water", which is all homeopathic medicine is, it would still be wrong as I'm sure 100% of them do.
This guy is up for re-election in a few months, let's hope he loses his seat.
When applied correctly homeopathy is GREAT! (Score:3, Interesting)
When applied correctly homeopathy is GREAT for treating not-actually-existing issues plaguing patients. Essentially you are applying a placebo to a patient who is feeling "nervous" or something else rather hypochondriac and if the placebo producer did not violate production regulations you end up giving them a bit of sugar and like that you cured the non-existing with the not-healing.
Despite tongue-in-cheek I do mean this serious because there are people who DO suffer from non-existing issues, yes it is all
Re:When applied correctly homeopathy is GREAT! (Score:5, Insightful)
In those instances, why bother with homoeopathy? Why not go straight to sugar pills/water?
And THAT is the problem with his claims.
It isn't important whether reading YOUR horoscope makes YOU "feel" better about YOURSELF.
It's whether reading someone else's AND BELIEVING IT IS YOURS makes you "feel" better about yourself.
So ..... do we foster an anti-science belief system because some people can self-invoke the placebo effect? Or do point out that it is nothing more than the placebo effect?
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Because the pateint doesn't believe in medicine. They believe in homeopathy...
Sugar pills will be net zero or net negative because they believe medicine is harmful overall...
Re:When applied correctly homeopathy is GREAT! (Score:5, Funny)
When applied correctly, Xanax is a safe and effective palindrome.
Re:He is linking homeopathy to astrology (Score:5, Informative)
I confirm that here in France, homeopathy is very common, and even MDs frequently use it.
But let's be serious. The placebo effect is one of the most effective thing in medical problems. The problem with it is that if you don't believe in it, it no longer works. Building false theories that makes sense for most people is therefore a skill that can be much more effective than finding real cures.
So, in a way, I can't blame people who use it just because, as an ultra-rational guy, I do not have the "chance" of being able to use those things with a positive effect. Maybe using astrology and homeopathy would indeed increase the efficiency of the health system. Not because it prevents illnesses, but just because we have to recognize that it really works by misleading people's brain.
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But let's be serious. The placebo effect is one of the most effective thing in medical problems. The problem with it is that if you don't believe in it, it no longer works. Building false theories that makes sense for most people is therefore a skill that can be much more effective than finding real cures.
Only by creating a system in which, in order to work properly, information must be hidden from the patient. This is unacceptable, full stop.
A difficult birth... (Score:5, Funny)
"Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
Doctor: Hmm, I've consulted the charts and I'm afraid you're in for a difficult birth. It would seem that on the due date your Sun will be in Uranus.
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That'll be really difficult as their head's already there.
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"Ninety per cent of pregnant French women use homeopathy. Astrology is a useful diagnostic tool enabling us to see strengths and weaknesses via the birth chart."
At first, I have failed to see the common ground between homeopathy and astrology - these two sentences sounded completely unrelated. But they are actually related - it says
"90% of French women are gullible enough to fall for homeopathy. This means that most of them are stupid enough to also believe astrology crap, so market is ripe"
And that figure of 90% actually comes from where? I mean other than out of Tredinnick's ass of course.
I was sceptical.. (Score:2)
Nutjob Tory MP in Irrational Lunacy Shock (Score:5, Informative)
Still. At least he's not on the House of Commons Health Committe [parliament.uk] or anything. What's that? Oh...
US Monopoly (Score:5, Funny)
One reason there'll always be a Britian (Score:2)
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And the good news is most of these nuts are in politics, a profession that doesn't have any repercussions for everyone else...
..and we're done (Score:2, Insightful)
We had a good run from post WWII to about the early 21st century. For some reason, science and technology had to wait for a major war, then suddenly we accepted science and technology as we gave ourselves a great orgy of technology.
Now that the wind has run out of that sail, and we've hit plateaus on pretty much everything, and university education is dumbed down and sold like a late-night infomercial, humanity will slide back to what we always were; a bunch of emotionally-driven lunatics hungry for power.
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. . . says yet another person who appears to be totally ignorant about history. Do you really believe that if you went back in time to, say, 1950, you couldn't find politicians saying equally idiotic things, perhaps in even greater numbers? And do you think "technology" is limited to, say, space travel?
I am carrying, in my pocket, a computer significantly more powerful than anything I used as a child (and much cheaper in absolute dollars), with access to a global information network containing most of hum
What an idiot... (Score:5, Funny)
Wow .... (Score:2)
David Tredinnick ... come on down, you're our next contestant on "how did I live so long being such a fucking moron?"
I'm sorry, but no.
Dumb as a box of hammers, looking to spend taxpayer money
Re:Wow .... (Score:4, Funny)
Dumb as a box of hammers, looking to spend taxpayer money on unproven voodoo, and this guy is a conservative??
Well, yes. I fail to see the contradiction though.
Re:Wow .... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what 'conservative' means - living in the past. Its a bit like being amish but you can have serfs work the land for you.
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Ah, gotcha ... so being a conservative means you have stupid beliefs, which are contradictory to science, completely not based in evidence, and can't be proven ... of course.
That actually explains a lot.
Silly bunt.
Re:Wow .... (Score:4, Insightful)
It means "holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation" which yes would usually mean you have stupid beliefs. Since "traditional" is another word for "old" with a connotation that that is better than something new just because it is older.
Whereas non-stupid beliefs would be those that are justified by evidence, and you wouldn't need to label them traditional to justify them since you have that evidence even when they are in fact old.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Is this Slashdot or The Onion? (Score:2)
Good to hear about the trans-Atlantic stupid-party co-operation.
Yes, racist! (Score:3)
Anyone who laughs at using the predictable alignment of stars and planets to make earthbound decisions is clearly only doing it because they hold an ugly prejudice against ancient Sumerians [wikipedia.org].
Few things are more disgusting than an anti-Urist. Come on people, its not 1965 (BC) anymore!
and and you know what (Score:2)
This made my day... (Score:3)
But I'm only laughing because I'm not British. This would terrify me if I were British. Not that we don't have plenty of similar nuts in Congress.
Has anyone checked recently if Treddinick weighs as much as a duck? I think it's time.
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Raise minimum wage (=less benefits and more tax).
Tax the rich more.
Close tax loopholes.
Put an end to the double Irish.
Invest in high quality sustainable housing.
Deal with pollution.
No crazy spending or crazy borrowing necessary, but the rich and stupid wouldn't like those policies.
Those are policies that would lower the deficit, put people in work and give them a higher standard of living.
The Tories aren't screwing the poor? You are blind.
He is a Capricorn, what do you expect? (Score:2)
The funniest line in this article is "The MP for Bosworth, in Leicestershire, who is a Capricorn..." -- well done to the journalist who wrote this!
Mentally incompetent? (Score:2)
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Surely this is grounds for him being dismissed as an MP. What a truly stupid man.
If being mentally incompetent was grounds for being dismissed as an MP the chambers would be almost empty
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Surely this is grounds for him being dismissed as an MP. What a truly stupid man.
I can't believe anyone would vote him back in anyway.
I assume he's in a safe Tory seat?
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Appears largely be so, yes. This muppet has held the seat continuously since 1987. Last election he won the seat by nine points (runner up was Lib Dem, not Labour, incidentally).
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So, stupid idiots, with beliefs based neither on reality nor evidence ... get re-elected by stupid idiots, with beliefs based neither on reality nor evidence.
This really is what is wrong with the world ... stupid people elect stupid people.
Bad tools are always bad (Score:2)
... even when used with good intentions.
It may do good in the short term for some people, much the same as a placebo, but unlike a placebo it brings with it a whole load of baggage (like homoeopathy and it's pseudo science research that was government funded in the UK until only recently).
The last thing anyone wants to see is astrology becoming more widely accepted as anything other than fiction... Stick with the placebo pill, it has the same effect and is a plain white lie with no baggage polluting minds o
He actually could be right. No joke. (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously.
I did consult a homeopath in the 90ies and early 2000nds, mostly because my mother was all super-pushy about it and I wanted her to quit pestering me. He would question me on the phone for 40 to 60 minutes. His anamnesis was the best I ever had. I don't recall if I even opened the package that came a week or so later containing the "LM Potence" of some obscure Homeopathic substance, i.e. a water and alcohol mixture in a small important looking flask. But I do remember being way calmer and way more educated on my condition. I thought I had heart problems and he pin-pointed reflux after the extensive questionaire and talk on the phone.
I've never spoken to an doctor for that long and I'd be suprised if any doctor had time or could afford such a thing. I would like to have such a medical expert to talk to that does not push obscure 'treatment' on me, that would be optimal.
I treated my reflux with healing-earth, baking soda, meditation/relaxation excercise and a change in diet and told my MD who wanted to sell me a "heart and lung condition" diagnosed in the record time of 2.5 minutes to fuck off. Never had problems since.
The point is: Good Homeopaths are actually quite well medically educated and can be terrific "anameticists" (wording?), because their main job actually is to talk to the patient, find out what's bugging him and - ideally - do a solid diagnose. That they only prescribe sugar-pills is a minor nuiscance from that perspective.
If astrology would lead to a new occupation in which the main purpose is talking to the patient and find out what exactly the condition is, it could be a good thing. Wether the professional in question would be a homeopath, an astrologer, magician or whatnot wouldn't really matter. Only treatment then, of course, would need to be decided upon by a different party.
Modern medicine need a profession specifically for anamnesis. Until that happens, homeopaths and perhaps even astrologers will fill that gap. Poorly at time perhaps, but they'll fill it.
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Anamnesis [wikipedia.org] is a philosophy that we subconsciously know information from our past lives. "Anameticist" isn't a word. I have no idea what word you actually meant to use.
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Crackpot.
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Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I should have looked in dictionary instead of just googling it. And if his story is correct, he has an excellent point. If homeopaths are spending a good deal of time with their patients getting their history than doctors do and getting more accurate diagoses as a result, then they're performing a valuable service, even if their actual cures are bunk.
Re:He actually could be right. No joke. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never spoken to an doctor for that long and I'd be suprised if any doctor had time or could afford such a thing.
No, but a decent doctor could do the differential diagnosis of reflux vs heart problems in about 1 minute flat, without spending most of an hour on irrelevant bullshit intended only to impress the gullible (which looks like it worked, at least in this case).
He Is Right (Score:2)
This is the most sensible Tory statement on NHS (Score:3)
Total fruitcake (Score:3)
The guy is a well known loon. In the past he's been very vocal in his support of homeopathy and various other quackery. If memory serves he once also publically claimed that blood won't clot under a full moon.
He sits on the Science and Technology Select Committee and the Health Select Committee. An astonishingly clear example of an elected official not being fit for purpose.
That's hilarious (Score:2)
I guess it might be less so if you were actually british though.
here he is wasting parliamentary time with his BS (Score:2)
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/... [theyworkforyou.com]
what a complete and utter waste of democracy this man is.
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here is the working group list referred to in the parliamentary answer http://www.publications.parlia... [parliament.uk]
"racially prejudiced" (Score:2)
Ahh yes, crying racism is the new solid defense against anti-batshit/religious/woo claims.
I don't know who this asshole is, but I am willing to bet he is a white christian, which makes the claim even more hilarious.
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I am not a minority in any way, but I would think actual minorities should be annoyed by the use of this.
But perhaps just pointing and laughing is the best response.
Normal (Score:2)
"An MP from the governing Conservative Party..."
Why am I not surprised.
The stars are also against the EU, I presume.
The empire rots from within (Score:2)
In a high tech world, we can no longer afford to be governed by the innumerate, technically challenged and the uneducated. Democracy as currently constructed is failing.
Oblig (Score:2)
"But the village idiot's dirty smock and wall falling are a far cry from the modern world of the urban idiot. What kinds of backgrounds do these city idiots come from?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
I seek clarity (Score:2)
Not so lonely anymore (Score:3)
It's good to know that USA does not have a monopoly on anti-science whackjob politicians.
Maybe we can swap politicians to keep 'em fresh: We'll trade you 2 witches and a faith healer for 2 astrologers and a Stonehenge cultist.
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Which makes sense when one considers the voodoo Republicans have with trickle down economics (witness the wonderful state Kansas is in) or that swallowing a small camera can somehow lead to being able to perform a gynecological exam [startribune.com].
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They borrowed it from Republican Mitt Romney who referenced Republican Newt Gingrich.
Which makes sense when one considers the voodoo Republicans have with trickle down economics (witness the wonderful state Kansas is in) or that swallowing a small camera can somehow lead to being able to perform a gynecological exam [startribune.com].
Well the trickle down isn't voodoo, it's just that, a trickle. Only a small benefit making it down to the lower layers. If you take a second to count America as symbolic of trickle down capitalism and the USSR as symbolic of socialism then in practice capitalism has left the lower end better off than socialism. Of course those are terribly flawed analogies, but there is more to the notion of trickle down economics than 'voodoo'. The one thing capitalism undeniably has in it's favour is that it 'works' when
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The Democrats used voodoo to come up with Obamacare. What's the difference?
Voodoo involves sticking pins through a simulacrum of your nemesis. Sticking giant pins through Republicans can certainly be seen as something contributing to the greater good - at the very least it is quite cathartic.
And catharsis is a powerful healing tool [wikipedia.org].
QED.
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He's talking nonsense, but he's talking about diagnosis. Withdrawing from the NHS would involve withdrawing from treatment as well, so that's not really a fair challenge.
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It's not even diagnosis. That implies you have an issue. It's predicting what sort of ailments are likely to befall someone based on astrology.
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OK, he and his family can use astrology for diagnosis, and homeopathy for treatment.
Seems like over a few years this would be a self correcting problem.
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The Guardian is a left-wing newspaper which supports Labour to a ridiculous degree.
There are stupid politicians of both colours, take the Labour MP who claims to be the son of a 9ft alien.
If the Guardian had simply made up this story about a Tory MP in order to discredit the Conservative Party, you might have a point, although it would still only be partially counterbalancing the anti-Labour bias in most of the UK media..
But as it appears to be a true representation of what he said, it's irrelevant whether the newspaper is a mouthpiece for the Communist Party or the Catholic Church.
Re:There is some truth to it (Score:5, Informative)
Ask any police officer or health care provider how people act during the full moon. They will almost always tell you that they are busier and people are crazier around that time of the month - consistently - although they can't quite explain why.
Confirmation bias. I've heard the same thing from nurses, but the fact is, no correlation has been found. [wikipedia.org]
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No, it's not. The sun and the moon have effects. So does anything that actually runs into the Earth. Everything else is too damn far away.
And, guess what? T [wikipedia.org]
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There's more than that (Score:2)
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Brits here on Slashdot keep telling us how wonderful their single payer system is and how backwards the US is for not having it adopted long ago.
Are the stories of long wait times and poor service in the UK true after all? Do the Brits perhaps just manage to live a long life because they know their health care system is sh*t and they therefore avoid getting sick in the first place?
The NHS isn't perfect, and I'm sure if you're a paying customer at a private hospital you get quicker service, but the bottom line is that if you get ill here, you don't have to worry about bankrupting yourself to pay for a new body part.
Some of us quite like that comfort blanket.