Inside Minerva, a Silicon Valley Bid To Start an Elite College Online 85
An anonymous reader writes with this article about The Minerva Project, a for-profit company now backed with more than $95 million from Silicon Valley venture-capital firms. Its goal is both audacious and unprecedented in the recent history of higher education: to build a name-brand, elite, liberal-arts-focused university that would cost about half of what Ivy League institutions charge. There's no campus, and all the classes take place online, but the students all live near each other in San Francisco. As small liberal-arts colleges like Sweet Briar shut down, is this campusless college the future?
Am I missing something here? (Score:1)
Why should the students all live in San Francisco if it's an -online- college? Also, would be nice to have an article that isn't behind a paywall.
Re: (Score:3)
You don't get the point of liberal arts education. It's all about the PARTY.
Re: (Score:2)
getting up to speed (Score:1)
Half the cost my ass (Score:3, Insightful)
If I'm forced to live in San Fran, my room and board is going to cost more than if I had gone to a normal college.
Re: (Score:1)
If I'm forced to live in San Fran...
I know we on Slashdot don't RTFA. Sometimes we don't even RTFS. But I think this is the first case of not reading the fucking title, specifically the last word.
Re: (Score:2)
Do me a favor and please explain this sentence for me: "... but the students all live near each other in San Francisco"
Re: (Score:2)
If I'm forced to live in San Fran, my room and board is going to cost more than if I had gone to a normal college.
Have you seen what ivy league schools charge for housing?
Re: (Score:2)
The dotcom era had Pets.com and the sock puppet
The Web 2.0 bubble will have these guys.
Nicely put, but this isn't the Web 2.0 bubble, this is the tuition bubble. Universities today (and a few students) seem to think it appropriate to charge $100k in tuition for degrees that in no way help you get a job after graduation, just make you a "well rounded individual". There have always been schools like that, and they're appropriate for trust fund babies who will inherit Daddy's business, but most people need an actual job.
What most students (and parents, and potential employers) expect from a un
Re: (Score:2)
simple economics drives the explosion of tuition, and almost nothing else.
once the government started handing out cheap, plentiful money to students in the form of loans and grants, the universities have every incentive to capture it all, plus more from mom and dad, if possible.
Re: (Score:1)
simple economics drives the explosion of tuition, and almost nothing else.
once the government started handing out cheap, plentiful money to students in the form of loans and grants, the universities have every incentive to capture it all, plus more from mom and dad, if possible.
Except that has absolutely nothing to do with why tuition is rising [usatoday.com].
make it so you can do a chapter 11 or 9 to get rid (Score:2)
make it so you can do a chapter 11 or 9 to get rid of the loans and then the banks will force the schools to cost less and do better.
Re: (Score:2)
Or leave it like it is and let future students learn from the current batch of idiots.
Re: (Score:3)
It's unfair to call the current batch "idiots" when they've been lied to consistently by teachers, guidance counselors, and then professors that their college education will be both necessary and meaningful. And likely that's still true for some engineering fields (though the price is still a bubble), but for a "Grievance Studies" degree? It's one Hell of a sophisticated con job, and I have some sympathy for the marks who fall for it - how's a kid supposed to figure out that the educational system as a wh
Re: (Score:2)
They charge whatever people are willing to pay.
Re: (Score:2)
They charge whatever people are willing to pay.
As others have pointed out, that's distorted by subsidies. And, of course, all bubbles are build on "what people are willing to pay", just with a dose of deception about the value provided!
Choosing worthless and overpriced degrees is the responsibility of students and parents, not of universities.
It's unfair to expect someone to have the education to recognize they're being conned when it's the education system itself who are the con-men. Really, how are kids supposed to figure this out beforehand?
The bubble will pop when students come to their senses. Until then, it remains worthwhile to charge inflated amounts for useless degrees.
Ah, you're the kind who gives "libertarianism" a bad name. Fraud is fraud, and victim-blaming isn't appropriate. S
Re: (Score:3)
You are confused sir. There is no fraud when someone willingly chooses poorly yet still receives a quality education in a field that is irrelevant. That's called personal choice.
I believe you're out of touch. There are people who genuinely believe that a "Women's Studies" degree, or an Anthropology degree, etc, will help them get a job and prosper, because they've been sold a bill of goods.
I'd love to see clear product labeling for degrees. "People with this degree make about the same in five years as people with no degree make at the same age", or "people in this field make above the median income, but few graduates with this degree from this college are working in this field".
W
Re: (Score:1)
"Sold" by who? My college didn't promise wealth from a Women's Study degree.
"We" do. It's been in books and newspapers for over half a century. It's online these days. http://bit.ly/180oEsq [bit.ly]
Re: (Score:2)
There are people who genuinely believe that a "Women's Studies" degree, or an Anthropology degree, etc, will help them get a job and prosper
Having a degree in Women's Studies or Anthropology (or Ancient Greek or Medieval Music, or whatever) proves to employers that you are capable of getting a degree. The assumption that you are then limited to jobs in Women's Studies or Anthropology (or Ancient Greek or Medieval Music) is ridiculous.
An undergraduate university course is not the same thing as a vocational training course. Obviously, if you want to be a doctor or something, you're probably not going to do a four year course in Fine Art then s
Re: (Score:2)
Why shouldn't college be (mostly) vocational training, is the thing. That sounds like Universities wasting students time, if they don't actually learn any useful skills.
As I said upthread, it's fine if you also have universities for trust-fund babies who don't need any useful skills to inherit Daddy's business. That's a big chunk of Ivy League school students, after all.
But the rest of us will be working, and school should leave us prepared to work, ideally in a field that pays well (as pay is the signal
Re: (Score:1)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=salary+by... [lmgtfy.com]
You major in Women's Studies and you get a Women's Studies degree. You are told up-front how much it costs. There is tons of information on the kinds of careers you can take. Where is the fraud?
Networking (Score:3, Insightful)
The people you meet in college are similar to goodwill in accounting.
Re: (Score:2)
I would bet that the dollar cost of a Harvard education has less to do with the education and more with the people you will go to college with.
I'd bet that at least for the liberal arts part of it, you could probably hire luminaries in the liberal arts fields and gain private instruction for less than many elite Universities.
Re: (Score:2)
The people you meet in college are similar to goodwill in accounting.
Largely fictional and generally worthless?
I hate online classes. (Score:4, Insightful)
Online classes follow the in person paradigm: lecture and then homework. Paying attention to video lectures on a computer is just impossible for me. There is no interaction - at least in an in-person lecture, the lecturer will ask questions or call on you.
And then, getting feedback is difficult. My biggest bone to pick with Coursera is that you cannot discuss answers to homework or test questions.
In one class, I got all the practice problems correct but on the exam, I couldn't get the correct answer - even after my 4 tries allowed. Others had the same problem and others didn't. Where did we go wrong? To this day, I do not know.
If I couldn't get the exam problem correct, then I don't think I understood the concept.
And then there are the snarky comments like, "You don't belong here!".
After reporting it, nothing was done. I assumed that it must have been a TA that posted it. A snarky TA?
Never happens! /s
I have taken other online classes and they just don't cut it. Nothing beats having a real live person teach, for me anyway. I need that human contact.
Re: (Score:1)
In-person back-and-forth interaction with the teacher is faster than online interaction. But one advantage of online over in-person is that you can ask questions any time, not just during the teacher's office hours.
In an ed2go.com class, you can discuss the homework online, but not the test questions. You can post your code online, and the teacher (and sometimes a student) will tell you what your mistake was. I've taken lots of classes from them. I was happy with most (not all) of my class's teachers.
Re: (Score:3)
In-person back-and-forth interaction with the teacher is faster than online interaction. But one advantage of online over in-person is that you can ask questions any time, not just during the teacher's office hours.
In an ed2go.com class, you can discuss the homework online, but not the test questions. You can post your code online, and the teacher (and sometimes a student) will tell you what your mistake was. I've taken lots of classes from them. I was happy with most (not all) of my class's teachers.
I graduated from Western Governors University [wgu.edu] last year and got my master's degree. Everything was online, with the exception of the graduation party.
Teachers were just a phone call or e-mail away. And because they did not have to attend any classes either, they were usually *always* available. Some of them even in the weekends (since that's when most people study, next to their daytime jobs) until the late hours.
I did a two year program in less than 18 months. Try that with your traditional on-campus u
Re: (Score:2)
Online classes follow the in person paradigm: lecture and then homework. Paying attention to video lectures on a computer is just impossible for me.
That's part of the problem - video lectures. You want to receive information at a rate that is throttled by the talking head on screen? I completed an entire degree without seeing a single video or going for a single lecture. That was a decade ago. Now I try to learn from some coursera video and find that, maddeningly, they fail to provide transcripts of the video. Rewinding a video to re-digest something is much less effective than simply flipping pages.
But, yeah, videos are becoming a problem - people are
Elite? (Score:3, Insightful)
How do create an "elite" college from nothing?
Isn't that officious title something a college has to earn?
Perhaps if you get David Braben on board? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Charge a lot and have some associated token luminaries... That's how.
There is a reason the venture capitol people like this. The vast majority of University money goes to facilities, not lecturers. These people have eliminated facilities but are not charging 10%, they are charging 50%. That's pure profit baby!
As far as I'm considered, this article ends with t (Score:4, Informative)
I will never trust for-profit educational institutions:
For-Profit Colleges Under Investigation [nytimes.com]
Corinthian Colleges Employee: âoeWe Work For The Biggest Scam Company In The World" [consumerist.com]
Screw U: How For-Profit Colleges Rip You Off [motherjones.com]
How For-Profit Colleges Target Military Veterans (and Your Tax Dollars) [time.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think the distinction you're making is as bright of a line as many people wish it were.
When you think of "for profit" college, do you think of the motivations? The governance? The educational results?
I look at "normal" colleges and I see many examples of
- bad motivations: if you don't think "normal" colleges aren't motivated by the wrong things, look at how much money gets pumped into athletics programs. look at how much money goes to administrative stafff. look at how much money goes to buildin
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not saying that for-profit universities are bad because they seek a profit. But there is an undeniable trend: For-profit colleges are worse than non-profit colleges by almost every metric.
Motivations: Yes, some non-profit universities are spending enormous amounts of money on sports, but sports spending is an investment that returns profits that are used for education [bleacherreport.com]. For-profit schools, on the other hand, spend more than $400,000 a day on ads while downsizing their teaching staff [reuters.com].
Governance: Yes, anot
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The whole non-profit thing is a scam anyway just like non-profit healthcare. It's just a ruse to avoid taxes. Everyone involved in a non-profit makes money. It's just the accounting.
Another diploma mill with a marketing team (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Another diploma mill with a marketing team (Score:5, Insightful)
Another major difference between colleges is the interaction with other students. For example at Caltech you are in an environment where it is normal to study for a few hours every night, and where scientific discussions are common, you will get more mental exercise and learn more. An elite liberal arts school will likely provide equivalent benefits.
Then, while less "pure", the contact you make at an elite school are very valuable in your future career .
Re: (Score:2)
An elite liberal arts school will likely provide equivalent benefits.
Yep; a high THC level in your bloodstream.
Re: (Score:2)
The people you meet in college are similar to goodwill in accounting.
At an elite school you will live and study with incredibly intelligent and ambitious students who are already beginning to have an impact in their fields before they get their BS/PhD. Your professors will include Nobel laureates who may well have invented your field of study. Together they will shape your approach to your studies and your career. Of course, that's elite in science/technology, not "elite" as defined by Minerva's PR firm.
Re: (Score:2)
The reputation of the college you went to doesn't get you on board of directors. It doesn't get you the job of President of a prestigious universities. It doesn't command million dollar salaries on Wall Street. Those hav
Re: (Score:2)
The reputation of the college you went to doesn't get you [all of the things that are influenced by the reputation of the college that you went to]
I don't know what you're smoking here, you've clearly never applied for a job on Wall Street. That is literally the second thing the headhunter will ask you, right after: "Is it legal for you to work in the US?"
Certainly, the name doesn't get you those things by itself - the greatest correlating factor with a person's salary is the wealth of their parents. But the name of their school is up there.
Re: (Score:2)
Elites are elite for a reason, they give you the knowledge, tools and connections to be successful.
Re: (Score:2)
My assertion is the at elite colleges are elite because they produce more successful graduates. If that assertion is false, then elite colleges have nothing to do with the success their graduates and other non-elite colleges would produce equally as successful graduates. We reject the negative assertion is false.
Training, not college (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure if the people who try things like this are stupid, or think that everyone else is stupid.
College is not the equivalent of training. It is an experience that transforms people during a period of time when they are still able to be transformed. Some of that is about learning specific things that you will need later. A lot more is about the ability to train yourself to learn specific things that you may never need later - so the training is the valuable thing, not the knowledge. More is about learning how to take on experiences, but in a sandbox environment, trying things that you could not easily do elsewhere. Getting involved in clubs and activities. Being a DJ on a radio station. Learning how to live with others in close quarters. Learning how to both succeed and to fail.
Coupled with that is the exposure to people who are not you. Creatively mixing your thoughts with others in a relaxed, informal setting. Broadening your horizons. Still in a sandbox though, because you're going to screw up. You're going to piss people off. You're going to make mistakes.
I still remember the lesson I learned in my "contract negotiation" class, when my negotiating team was up against a team made up mostly of hockey players. My team, representing "labor", with one older guy on it who probably was in a union, decided that it would be a good strategy to play hardball with the other team ("management") because the older guy surmised that the hockey players could not afford to come to a stalemate because a failing grade would bounce them off the team. The strategy worked, but I was disgusted with the tactic, so I wrote a paper outlining the problems with this negotiating approach.
That sandbox is the part of college that is the most expensive. I'd guess that it costs more than half of the entire cost of the "education". That means this for-profit company is trying to take advantage of people who naively believe that "college" is just about a credential, a piece of paper that says you met a minimum set of requirements. An online "college" can not offer most of what a campus-based college offers. It can only offer the "training" part, plus maybe a little of the "learning how to learn" part.
Re: (Score:2)
the "tactic" actually sounded pretty smart to me, and say what you will, the "older guy" definitely understood how to negotiate in the "real" world.
Re: (Score:2)
the "tactic" actually sounded pretty smart to me, and say what you will, the "older guy" definitely understood how to negotiate in the "real" world.
Difficult and abusive negotiations are not the path to repeat business.
Re: (Score:2)
But repeat business isn't important in today's economy. It's
1. Create a concept..
2. Market the concept.
3. Sell out to Google, Samsung, Apple, or Comcast.
4. Let them worry about repeat business.
Re: (Score:2)
and if that team where people on the football or basketball team then they would not be at risk of a failing grade at all. Also now days the NCAA will likely them to be far from any union talk
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Unfortunately, people who go to for-profit colleges end up as middle managers, HR admins and hiring agents. You know, the people who read your resumes and discard them if they don't have those credentials. Its all about the certificate, just completely skip over anything like real world experience, imagination, innovation, ability to improvise, people skills, etc etc etc.
A better article, not behind a paywall: (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
a much better technique than the big lecture hall format, with students zoning out half the time.
whoa, whoa there. I had to tough out falling asleep along with every other student in my class. Faking attention through extremely boring lectures by boring people *IS* one of the most valuable workplace skills out there. I haven't read the article or the summary but I'm beyond certain it's a recipe for failure if it dosent address the important aspects of college education.
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for the link. Sounds like the key to Minerva is their platform that promises to be more interactive and engaging than the traditional lecture hall style classes.
I think it has potential. However, an overall college experience has much more to do with knowledge and learning.. It's about the people you meet. It's not clear whether Minerva has an edge in that regard.
Value of Ivy League is Networking (Score:2)
The highest reasonable price would be that of a cheap community college. The price of an Ivy League is due to the value of the networking (both your peers, instructors and alumni).
Typical Silly Valley (Score:1)
"We can have X without physically-necessary-for-it-to-work Y!"
Minverva Project is . . . (Score:2)
Which kind of elite? (Score:3)
But the second kind would be one where they teach hard things to high levels and thus it is hard to graduate from. With an online scenario it could be possible to let pretty much everyone in and let the actual courses be the filter.
That said, I have a nephew who recently graduated from a third rate university's engineering program. Basically they taught them shit but worked them to the bone. If you didn't have a fantastic work ethic and discipline then you may very well not complete the course. But the engineering skills learned would be borderline useless.
So what I would love with an online truly elite university would be basically opensource courses. That is all the materials, videos, tests, etc would be published. This way they would have trouble concealing the fact that their course sucked.
Re: (Score:1)
Problems (Score:2)
another take on the impetus for this (Score:1)