Ten US Senators Seek Investigation Into the Replacement of US Tech Workers 407
dcblogs notes this story about a bipartisan group of U.S. senators that has asked for an investigation into whether companies are firing American workers and replacing them with foreign workers for the sake of cutting costs. "Ten U.S. senators, representing the political spectrum, are seeking a federal investigation into displacement of IT workers by H-1B-using contractors. They are asking the U.S. Department of Justice, the Department of Homeland Security and the Labor Department to investigate the use of the H-1B program "to replace large numbers of American workers" at Southern California Edison (SCE) and other employers. The letter to Attorney General Eric Holder and the secretaries of the two other departments, was signed by U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which has oversight over the Justice Department. The other signers are Sens. Richard Durbin (D-Ill.), a longtime ally of Grassley on H-1B issues; Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), David Vitter (R-La.), Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.), Bill Cassidy (R-La.), Bernard Sanders (I-Vt.), James Inhofe (R-Okla.). Neither California senator signed on. "Southern California Edison ought to be the tipping point that finally compels Washington to take needed actions to protect American workers," Sessions said. Five hundred IT workers at SCE were cut, and many had to train their replacements."
And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Insightful)
They could be serious.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Insightful)
if they would only realize that by making US employment of americans stronger, we will be able to AFFORD to buy the toys that our very companies are making (toys being used in the very general sense).
what will happen to all those who came or want to come to the US? well, this will force their own countries to deal with their own problems instead of the 'I cant fix my own country, so I'll just go to the US, instead' mentality. if mobility was a bit more limited, people in their own countries would have to deal with and fix their own problems. that's a win/win for everyone.
by allowing cheap labor to displace US workers, its lose/lose. nothing in india (and we all know, india is the #1 source of h1b tech workers) will get better if their 'top talent' all moves here for jobs; and the US struggles to keep its own people employed.
we have let the ceo's ruin our economy for decades! their selfishness has stunted the entire US economy for all but the one percenters.
then again, congress is all about the one percenters and so, expecting a fix from those who can't even SEE the problem is a bit overly optimistic.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the corporations, in all their greedy shortsightedness, can hire the replacement workers cheaper, with the side effect of gaining the illusion of ethnic diversity in their workforce.
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Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Interesting)
ethnic diversity?
have you walked the hallways of companies that hire 'a lot' of h1b's?
come visit the bay area. take a tour of any random cisco building, for example. just go into their cafeteria. or pick another well known tech company in the bay area. go walk their hallways. listen to the languages you hear there.
come back and tell me about diversity.
ok, you have a point. you can hear mandarin, cantonese, hindi and at least 10 other indian dialects. and so, yes, there's a KIND of diversity in tech, these days, in so-called US companies...
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Alright Mr CEO, calm down and send your assistant out for some lattes.
In the real world, you are full of shit. You can't keep pushing salaries down for qualified Americans while whining about not enough workers, that isn't the way the economy works.
If you want to have your company in the bay area, you pay the going rate for people. You can't expect your programmers to live in a box out back of the office.
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You can't expect your programmers to live in a box out back of the office.
Sure you can, you just need to remove all their other options first.
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:2, Interesting)
American here, Missouri resident. Let me explain something about what an American is, we are all immigrants, even the original natives. We (or are ancestors) all came here for opportunity, be that freedom, economic or other.
When you talk about 'us' you're talking about people who came here for the same basic reason as those you call 'them'.
I say come one, come all. Give us your poor, your weak and your down trodden. It is from that same pool that we have made this nation strong and prosperous.
Do you know wh
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Insightful)
after you unwrap yourself from the flag, I'll tell you the real story.
the real story is: what applied back in the turn of the century does not apply any longer. lots of reasons, we can list them but I'm sure you agree that what made sense (letting tons of people in) does not, any more.
WHY are we obligated to solve the world's problems and give everyone in the world the same rights as people who have a lot invested and who plan to live here long-term.
see, that's one thing your little jingoistic story leaves out. the ellis island folks, by and large, did not plan to move here for a short stay, make a lot of money and return home. they were INVESTED here, they eventually learned the language and merged in. that was then.
what we have now is a 'grab, take, return home' situation. we don't give these folks citizenship. look, if they are valuable, give them citizenship and let them be like the rest of us! let them live with the long-term results of what we all are going to face. if you come to shit in my country, take what's good and then leave, do you think people will want to like you?
we don't give citizenship, really; we give h1b. 'temp work permits'. in that, its nothing like ellis island days. nothing AT ALL.
stop playing star spangled banner and smell the real coffee. what worked 100 years ago is not applicable now. the workforce is too crowded, the unemployment is sky high and we are borderline on depression, again and again. is that a time you think of as a 'work surplus' era? I sure don't! if you have no surplus, you have no right giving out jobs to people who are not as invested as those who were born and raised here.
and yes, I do think that being born in a country and raised there DOES give you more rights over those who just moved in. try moving to germany or france or austria or switzerland or probably most other european countries and trying to be 'a citizen'. in some places, if you were not born there, you'll NEVER be one of them. jobs won't go to you first, etc etc. why do we have to import the word's labor force - especially when our own people are being routinely refused a living wage in the field they are WELL qualified to work in.
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Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Informative)
partly population concerns - while Amwerica is a big, wide, empty country you all want to live in very crowded little communities. Increasing immigration causes more pressure on those communities for things like housing and traffic.
Then there's the economic issue, while the wild west had no social care benefits, today you have many. So every new immigrant either has no job and gets benefits, or has a job and pays his own way but helps to displace another worker who then ends up on benefits.
In the UK we see this a lot, while immigration has increased dramatically, the number of jobs has increased relatively slowly, so we have 6 million immigrants but 2 million unemployed. Our health and education systems have not been funded accordingly though, and are showing signs of collapse. Hence, immigration is a good thing, but only to a point - not as an unlimited influx.
Its probably entirely linked to the rate of immigration overall, in the old days when we had few immigrants being drip-fed into the system things were OK, now we have a flood people are getting concerned.
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Insightful)
Why does it not work? Even the Irish and Chinese railroad workers were made citizens. We brought in temp workers, and kept them. Africa first, others later. All were made citizens (and yes, slaves were citizens, just not free ones). We've always had a love-hate relationship with workers, but, until recently, were happy to make them citizens.
That's the point, though. All the asians I know of who are citizens didn't become citizens via H1-B, they did it on our own.
Yes, my state - and probably yours - is full of towns whose names and history reflect the fact that someone brought over people en-masse from some other town, village or country primarily to serve as cheap - and frequently semi-captive labor. That's not even touching the importation of slaves from Africa.
And those people often brought financial hurt to established citizens because they were easier to control and to keep under low wages.
But they were nevertheless brought in as permanent residents with citizenship rights - even the slaves, allowing for differences in who got what "citizenship rights".
The H1-B program was specifically designed to bring in temporary immigrants, not people who'd eventually grow to become a permanent part of the tax-paying populace and even to demand competitive wages instead of exploitative ones.
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The difference is not in the attitudes of the people that come here. The difference is in us. We used to let people stay and now we send them home after they get their education or their contract runs out. It's the dumbest possible move on our part. Once we have invested in educating or training someone productive we should encourage that person to stay, not send him or her home.
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Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
I'm from Canada and it ain't working here either! The company I work for just recently started importing cheap software developers from India using Cognizant, meanwhile my own brother who earned his degree in CS from a top university (while plunging himself neck deep in OSAP debt) is having a hard time finding a job! Its not working anywhere, how can it when you are giving jobs meant for citizens away to foreigners?
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:4)
That's because good tech talent is a rare commodity and the only way to find out if you've found it is to hire people and test them. It isn't like you burn through the entire talent pool looking. There are plenty here in the US without going overseas, overseas you don't find more talented people, it's the same grind, you hire and try them out.
And if you are looking for perfect drop in replacements who don't need a year or so to settle in and learn the in's and out's of your particular environment move along. You are a serious part of the problem.
The biggest secret to having good people isn't hiring H1B's it's working to retain the people you have.
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Insightful)
The biggest secret to having good people isn't hiring H1B's it's working to retain the people you have.
But... This would imply that people aren't "human resources" that can be swapped with each other at will. It implies that someone who works on a project for a few years can contribute more meaningfully to a product than someone just hired.
I've seen this a few times in my career, an "average" developer with a few years experience on a project may not be as celebrated as the rock star that was just hired, but a couple years down the line when the rock star has moved on, its the "average" developer's code that doesn't need weekly maintenance. Its, often the guys that have been there for a couple years tasked with cleaning up the mess. A problem, much harder than creating it in the first place. That is if they are still around, because even an average developer can put their resume out there and get a pay bump if they put the effort into it.
Bottom line, I totally agree, retention of good solid "average" developers is what companies should be focusing on. Everyone is looking for a magic solution, but in reality a lot of software development is just slogging through loads and loads of unstimulating work.
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty well experienced in US tech. after college, I stayed in boston for 10 years working at a well known new england computer company. I later moved to the bay area and have been here 25+ years. all working for tech (software eng). I know this field, I have worked at quite a few top-name companies and so have real experience in matters that we're discussing.
when I moved here 25 or so years ago, seeing the mix of imported labor vs US born was more reasonable. still not representative, but not outrageous. maybe half of my group were from asia/india and the rest US born. over the years, its gotton to be about 90% asia/india, for any given group other than upper management. in engineering, you can now walk the hallways of many bay area companies and if its an engineering building, english will be the exception, not the rule. I am not lying, those who live here can verify this if they are brave enough to speak up about it.
now, it would be fair if you found about 10% or so of each group being imported labor. I can agree that there may be some jobs that are so specialized that no one locally can do. but when it gets to 50%, 70%, 90% of the typical group (sw, hw, sysadmin, devops, etc) - then I really question that *everyone* there is special and could not be done by a willing and able local person. most companies are run on the meat and potatoes person - competant, able, but no genius. for that, you should be able to find local employees. but when you see that 90% of a software or hardware group is h1b, you really know that its all a scam and a lie that 'no one local could be found' for all those regular old jobs.
hey, I started out wanting the glory jobs. I think I'm pretty good, I've been around, I've done lots of things. I was not getting the jobs that I applied for. so I lowered the threshold and applied for the so-called meat and potato jobs. the ones that even average people can do (and who is often hired). nope, shut out of those, too. all staffed with indian and chinese folks. I was willing to do nearly any software work that paid a living wage, and could not find it. I've personally been looking for a few months, now, and its this way for many of us.
again, if the 10% cream-of-the-cream jobs were only fillable with international talent, fine, cool, I'm ok with that. but that's not even close to what the actual reality is. its abused beyond abuse.
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Insightful)
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I can guarantee you the company I work for would pay the same for an American worker as a foreign H1-B worker, if we could actually fine ANY worker that we found competent to do the job...
The part you're leaving out is, "at the same pay we can get away with on an H1-B"
If you're claiming you can't find a worker who can do a job, that is just nonsense. You can ALWAYS find someone... you just might have to pay more than you'd like...
Right now, I live in Texas. If I had the skills you need, offering me $200K isn't going to get me to move. Depending on the part of the country, you'd have to pay me closer to $750K (SF Bay area or LA area), elsewhere, probably $400K would get me interested.
Oh,
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Are they TRYING to destroy the country!?
Why yes they are, at least a few of the people in the US. You only need to look at the tip top of wealth holders and read their biographies to find the answer to that question. I know, it's hard to take them at their word but read what David D. Rockafeller says:
Some even believe we [Rockefeller family] are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - One World, if you will.If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it
Read Carol Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope", it has more of the answers.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Funny)
For example, does anybody really think conservatives want to ban abortion? Why get rid of your best ticket to office when you can make some lame-ass attempt to ban it, have it struck down, and then blame the "liberal agenda" and "liberal courts" further reinforcing their voter base.
And don't you dare think liberals are any better.
It's pretty damn coincidental, don't you think, that a Clinton or Bush has been in the White House every year going all the way back to 1971. Bush senior was president, vice president, ambassador to the UN, and Director of the fucking CIA--arguably the worlds most powerful organization ever. They've outright admitted to overthrowing other governments and we're stupid enough to think they wouldn't try their tactics in the USA?
How did Obama's platform of government transparency work out? Does anything really believe he intended to be transparent and then just magically changed his mind 180 degrees, and then went on to increase all of the Bush Era spying? He either lied outright, or was magically forced to change his opinion. Either way, it's a complete fuck up.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Informative)
Are they TRYING to destroy the country!?
Yes. They are. They are doing the economic equivalent of selling-short. When the US crashes, they will profit. Better for the US (and the world) would be to open the borders, and effectively declare that anyone in the world can be a US citizen, if they so wish. That's how it was when the country was founded.
Anyone here on 4, July 1776 was a citizen, by default. Amnesty for all. But now, the "conservatives" hate everything the founding fathers did.
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"Anyone here on 4, July 1776 was a citizen, by default."
Really? The slaves became citizens?
(America was and always has been based on exploiting cheap labor. I'm not a commie, I just think there is a balance and America doesn't have it.)
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The slaves became citizens?
Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation? Notice how nobody ever made the slaves citizens? They just set them free. Why is that? Oh yes, they were citizens. If they weren't, when did they become citizens?
Actually, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in territories still under rebellion. A slave held in Maryland, for example, was not freed by it. It covered about 3/4 of the slaves in the US, although since the areas it covered were still under control by the Confederates it had no enforcement until Union troops captured the territory. The 13th amendment made slavery and indentured servitude illegal except for those convicted of a crime.
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Why are we not investing in the education of Americans so they can be the 'replacement workers'?
Part of the perfect lie that is STEM is that only a few people need training to perform manufacturing tasks. And for those few that do need some additional skills on the job training works great. Apprenticeships are alive and well in China. It does not take much looking under the rug to see the dirt, and it's everywhere. When Apple was making the first version of their iphone over in China at Foxcon they were hiring workers on a daily basis straight off from the rural farms. They were not turning anyone aw
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Because they are trying to destroy your jobs, not their own.
The day that the H1B programme also applies to MBAs and Managers is the day that corporations stop using H1Bs.
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Not a valid generalization any longer. The US Government is broken and opportunity does not exist any longer, it only supports the top .1%, and people see it. In fact I know quite a few natural born citizens who have fled the US for that reason. Well, that and the fact that our continued deficit economy and massive debt will have a massive crash.
Intelligent people from other countries see the problems better than US people do. Always easier to see and critique other people. Why would they want to trade
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But H1Bs basically aren't allowed to stay and get treated like shit while they are here.
Can't move jobs; because if they are ever unemployed even for a moment they are breaching visa requirements and immediately deported; or jailed, and then deported.
So we kick them back out again, and start the cycle again. (Saying goodbye to their spending power and wages we just paid them, since they take it back to India [or wherever])
Even if the employer files for H1-B revocation, it can take months to process that paperwork, so generally if an H1-B holder loses their job they have a bit of time to search for employment - they'll usually be able to transfer their visa to a new employer if they find a new job within 30 days. My company just hired an H1-B applicant that was in this situation -- his employer shut down suddenly, he was jobless for about 2 weeks before we hired him and filed for the transfer.
No INS agent is going to bang on
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Uhuh, sure ... the really assertive and organized people will make it work.
The rest can be abused, at the very least the first year. You can not honestly tell me that whole layered client/vendor/consultant shit which grew up around H1Bs is not an evil clusterfuck.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh, I thought we *were* investing in the education of Americans.
Then you're not paying attention. Sure, all the politicians say they're committed to improving education, but they've been saying that for 200 years. It's the verbal equivalent of shaking hands.
Meanwhile, when the dollars hit the budget, it turns out that tax cuts, health care, and defense/police/security are much higher priorities. 20 years ago, the cost of educating a student in a state university was largely born by the state. Today, it's largely born by the student. You can look up your own state's numbers: here in Georgia, over the past 10 years, we've gone from 60% state funding to 38%. The per-student cost has gone up 3%/year, just like inflation, but the student's share has gone up 10%/year. The loss of state funding has encouraged these schools to more aggressively recruit foreign students and their uncapped tuition.
Curiously, because all of our politicians are wealthy, this makes the education they can provide for their own children just a little more valuable.
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It is entirely legitimate to not want to wipe out the savings of the middle class just so you can get at the rich people. The rich people may lose a bigger absolute number, but the middle class will lose out proportionately.
Putting the banks into receivership, wiping out the shareholders and selling off the assets to sounder banks to partially satisfy the bond holders while guaranteeing the depositors would have been the best solution for the middle class, it's also how capitalism is supposed to work. The implemented solution just acted as a giant wealth transfer to the rich.
But but but (Score:5, Insightful)
Just ask John Galt.
Or most slash-dotters who rant about unions.
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But you still want to sell to those countries, I'm guessing. So you're for free movement of goods, but not of people. Gotcha.
It's incorrect to say that the home countries of H1-Bs don't benefit. In the first place, a lot of people send money home to their families. In the second place, a lot of those workers will eventually go home, taking with them the skills and experience they've gained in the USA, to the benefit of their own countries.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that you have a problem with H1-Bs,
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It's incorrect to say that the home countries of H1-Bs don't benefit. In the first place, a lot of people send money home to their families.
Trading your energetic youth for subsistence income is a benefit? I guess that's why Mexico is no longer a kleptocratic hell-hole where cartels no longer slaughter students en-masse after the police round up their victims for them.
Oh. Wait...
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
And I can't imagine the chart takes illegal/undocumented immigration into account, that is much harder to quantify.
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Does this mean I have to go and find the data I looked at a couple of years ago and then decide which one is wrong?
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No Japanese or Chinese company were trying to get me at the time. There's also a language barrier that would have made it a harder transition.
I really like Japan and if the opportunity came up to move there, I'd probably take it.
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:4, Insightful)
A rich person doesn't want to give you money just so you can turn around and use it to buy stuff from him. Nobody gets richer that way.
Really? you might want to tell Henry Ford about that. In fact their is an entire economic theory named after him because he did just that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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A rich person doesn't want to give you money just so you can turn around and use it to buy stuff from him. Nobody gets richer that way.
Really? you might want to tell Henry Ford about that. In fact their is an entire economic theory named after him because he did just that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. The idea that Ford paid his workers more so they could buy cars is so ridiculous it is hard to believe the myth has spread so widely. Well not so hard to believe since so many people want to find references that "prove" the opinion they already had. I guess by this logic Boeing should raise their workers' wages high enough that each of them could buy a new jetliner. What is Boeing thinking by leaving those potential orders unfulfilled?
This [forbes.com] article debunks this
Re:And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
Nope.
3/4 of STEM workers flee the field due to substandard pay and working conditions compared to other jobs they can get.
Petroleum engineers were scarce at one time, but a 20% pay raise brought a 200% productivity rate from local talent. Problem solved and everyone wins.
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That is also naive. The US is still the largest economy in the world, the companies are here because
Re: And it's not even an election year (Score:5, Informative)
Your choice of how the United States saved Jews from the Nazi holocaust by allowing them to immigrate is a poor example:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007652 [ushmm.org]
But, yes, we have a massive statue. The words on it may have to be updated though: "Give us your tired, your poor, your low-wage workers."
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look -- another post full of the economic-policy voodoo "logic" that suggests we can prosper better as a nation by isolating ourselves from trade, contrary not only to theory but to every single example in recorded history
Few countries have ever prospered by restricting "trade," but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about immigration to displace US workers, and I can't think of a country that doesn't have some measures to limit that.
As long as we have millions more people in the US who consume computer-powered services than earn their living producing them, the population as a whole will prosper better by having those services done at a lower cost
Great theory! Unfortunately the reality we've seen is that jobs are lost for domestic workers, and then not replaced by other jobs. I would say this is a version of the trickle-down theory, because all it does is drive wages down, increasing corporate profits at the expense of wo
Did 'Em a Favor (Score:2)
Utilities are renowned for being dysfunctional political quagmires that are deserts of innovation - my wife worked at one for a few years and hoooo boy, the stories she could tell. Frankly, this is probably a *boost* to those US engineers' careers.
Re:Did 'Em a Favor (Score:5, Interesting)
The guy that writes Dilbert worked for a Utility for 20 years, PG&E IIRC. His cartoons are based on the facts of his workplace while at the utility.
Meanwhile at the shareholder meeting ... (Score:2, Insightful)
10 major shareholders representing 40% of open an investigation into why the company still has American workers and hasn't fired them and replaced them with foreign workers to cut costs.
they all do it (Score:2)
About time. (Score:4, Informative)
I don't have the visibility to say whether this is endemic, but I observer that a manager in my own organization stated openly not long ago that H-1B would get preference in new hires or backfill hires for budgetary purposes. And he has been as good as his word. About half the organization is now made up of foreign contractors, and the percentage is growing.
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It is at this point that I would tell them to piss up a rope and suck on the dry end until it was wet...
It just adds insult to injury to expect a person you tell you are firing that they have to train their replacement. If forced by contract I would do the bare minimum required by the contract. Nothing compels me to divulge everything. They are, after all, supposed to be qualified for the job right?
Re:About time. (Score:5, Interesting)
When a company I worked for outsourced IT, they required all displaced employees to document their jobs to the extent that offshore operators could do them.
it seems to me that this makes three, shall we say, outrageously optimistic assumptions: (1) that untrained operators can do the job based entirely on looking up solutions, (2) that IT jobs can be entirely quantized into a reasonable number of procedures, and (3) that displaced employees would be sufficiently motivated to document their jobs to the degree necessary that operators could do them.
A side assumption, equally optimistic, is that managers have enough savvy to tell whether displaced employees have done a good job documenting the work they do, or are just having them on.
So, cutover happens -- and the lights go out.
But we saved a lot of money.
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If anyone ever figures out how to "document" experience and hands-on skills, I think they'd be the next Bill Gates.
And that's the real issue -- the misconception that IT jobs are just a matter of pushing this button when that light goes on, and doesn't require education, experience, and diagnostic skills.
And then, when that doesn't work, this develops into the misconception that you can have former taxi drivers in your first and second level support, and a few high achievers in your third level support to handle everything that they don't. And this turns into a few third level admins doing the work of twenty while the
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I don't think you are serious and its obviously not right to treat ANYONE badly like that.
what I would like to know is this: for those of us here who are not US born, how do you feel being in a tech company and 90% of the people you see are also not from the US? does that give you any guilt at all? do you honestly think that everyone you met that came from india or china was head and shoulders above a US-born worker.
I've seen stellar programmers from india and china. I've also seen horrible work from peo
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"Open up your markets" applies as much to the labour market as that for any other sort of good. So yeah, it's fair.
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How many countries can someone from the US go into and be welcomed with open arms by the government and the people to replace their own workers? How about more than a hundred thousand people doing that in a single country?
Re:About time. (Score:5, Interesting)
Fucking A, We have been paying more in taxes then most of the H1B's were making back in their homeland FOR FUCKING YEARS. What do we get? More taxes and a stab in the back by the Plutocrats as they stroke the 1% ers. When you're out of work, You think those bastards will help you? Unemployment has been reduced to 9 months and good luck getting on foodstamps. Don't even think about getting any cash to keep the lights or landline on unless you have mewling brats. Plan to sell everything you own if you're out of the market longer then a year.
FUCK YOU Mr Anon. I've been there.
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I'm about as Liberal as it comes when it comes to social support networks being the backbone of an effective country and economy. But government can't bear the entire burden of your unemployment, you bear some costs in that including having to draw down personal assets including possessions because you are an adult who bears responsibility for your employment. Families with children deserve extra benefits because the Kids are innocent victims in this with no ability to help themselves and it's a hell of a l
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The latter half of your statement makes a bald-faced liar out of the first. It's as much of a farce as watching Obamabots continuing they oppose war
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all else being equal, citizens who spent 20+ years paying dues, being immersed in the culture of the country, having a PERMANENT STAKE in the success of their country - vs 'guests' who could really care less about the long-term success of our nation?
YEAH, YOU BET! I WOULD HIRE AMERICANS ANY DAY over those who come to grab the goods and then run.
yes, we deserve first choice on jobs. is your country different? let me visit your country and see if I can get a job there. I bet I can't - and its because YOUR
Re:About time. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll bite.
1. The sole purpose of a government is to protect the people it governs. This may not be done right, due to special interest groups, but that is the idea. The government is to protect supply / trade lines. It is to prevent crime as dictated by its laws. It is to provide security against foreign or local invaders. It is also suppose to work towards the general betterment of the nation (roads, sewers, etc). You wouldn't see a country one-sidedly give away chunks of its GDP without cause.
2. By giving jobs to H1-Bs or other foreign individuals preference over local employees (even if they got paid the same, which they don't), the companies are investing in foreign countries, and stopping local investment by the people that would live in the US for an extended period of time. H1-Bs aren't going to buy a house to live in. They aren't going to care about property values or anything of the like. They aren't going to be able to start a family here either. I will assume they at least pay income tax and sales tax, so they only really have that going for them.
3. If these people's talents were so much better than our local talents, why are the companies working out of the US instead of say India or China? Simply put, they want to use the government and social structure (quality of life and laws and enforcement), while paying at the rate of the foreign protections (which are worse than ours). Companies that have their employees-to-be-fired train their H1-B replacements, that shows at the very least the new hires don't have skills needed.
The real question is, what do these foreign workers have that they deserve to use us? There are certainly exceptions, such as the rare (in comparison) actually skilled individual. They can likely get in through other means aside from a temp worker program.
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Dunno about your company, but H-1B employees here have a different color badge, and are not allowed into certain meetings. It's a pretty easy differentiation to make.
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Everyone says they have masses of H1B's, but only 100-150 thousand are issued per year. I actually wonder if many confuse every foreign worker as H1B's? I know where I work people on Slashdot have commented that 30-50% of people here are H1B's when I know for a fact it is actually less than 1%, they seem to label everyone that originated from a foreign country as being in the US on H1B's
According to this source [numbersusa.com], the H1-B program as it is today started in 1990. Since then, the visa cap fluctuated between 65,000 and 195,000 per year. Let's take an average of 85,000 and we're talking about 85,000 times 25 years which equals 2,125,000. That's 2.1 million.
According to this source [pewresearch.org]. The total number of tech jobs in the U.S. in 2012 was 3,951,730.
So ~50% of tech workers could have come in under the H1-B program which, as you might know, is dual intent and allows for the application of permanen
Yet the signers aren't pulling their support (Score:3)
of the bill. They are complaining yet still signed on to support increasing the H1-B's. That tells me this is all smoke and mirrors. When will Americans realize they need to vote out every one of these bastards. Clean house - no one gets to keep their job.
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Not everything is IT. Not all H1-B's work in IT. I personally have no issue with an increase in the number of H1-B's as long at the government is actually enforcing the law. If a US citizen is fired and replaced with an H1-B that is direct evidence the law has been broken. There needs to be HARSH penalties to the companies breaking the law, on the order of 3x the amount they "saved" in salaries and compounded at prime +1% interest from the day it happened. The company should also be liable to lawsuit from i
We don't get a choice (Score:2)
memories (Score:2)
Good luck (Score:4, Informative)
It's standard to get ex-employees to sign agreements agreeing to keep their mouth shut in return for severance packages.
Just Political Posturing (Score:5, Informative)
I believe this is just political posturing before they sign the bill to substantially increase the number of H1Bs. Now they can say that they "attempted" to punish companies who violate the rules of the H1B program.
From TFA:
"This letter is a significant development in this contentious issue. It arrives at the same time that lawmakers are pushing a substantial increase in H-1B visas under the I-Squared bill, legislation that would raise the H-1B cap. Two of the co-sponsors of the I-Squared bill also signed the letter asking for an investigation into H-1B program practices."
don't tie the job to H-1B and or have a high min w (Score:2)
don't tie the job to H-1B and or have a high min wage with forced OT pay.
have the min wage start at 80K+COL with OT at 40 hours and X2 OT at 60 hours and X3 OT at 80 hours.
you cannot fight the tide (Score:5, Interesting)
When the world offers you endless numbers of reasonably well-trained workers who can fill your job openings at 1/2 the cost of US workers, what is a country to do? How long can a country resist that pressure? We may politically shout for better wages and training for US citizens to fill these jobs, but the deeper issue is that borders/barriers are less and less effective lately against a flood of competition from people who are cheaper and better (or hungrier).
Americans I believe will have to come to grips with the possibility of a stagnant or even decreasing standard of living as the rest of the world takes what was once our position. No amount of restriction of H-1B visas will prevent that.
Re:you cannot fight the tide (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't buy that. Much of the innovation that occurs in the technology originates here in the United States. The only reason we're seeing this "competition" from the rest of the world is technology execs (mostly American) see a way to do much of the same work for less money. So they're simply taking advantage of what they see is a relatively cheap international labor market.
The problem with this is, if we keep giving away the store like we are now, innovation will start happening more and more in other countries, and less and less here. What American tech execs don't realize is, with innovation occurring outside the United States, they'll be less call for their services as well. Then they'll be the ones crying poor mouth because they no longer have their cushy jobs and vacation homes around the world. The irony will be is that they did it to themselves.
It's standard American business practice to do things as cheaply as possible without regard to the consequences. So while American business "eats it's own tail", to to speak, there will be less and less to go around. Then, we'll be the third-world country, and countries where we once shopped for cheap tech labor will be shopping for cheap labor here. I don't see this happening for a good long while, but it will happen eventually if we aren't careful. The point is it doesn't have to happen at all.
Some more food for thought: H1-B Visas are issued by the United States Government. The U.S. Government is supposed to represent the interests of the American people. We need to make our voices heard to our representatives. If our representatives don't act the way we want, then we need to replace them with representatives who will. We do not have to accept a lower standard of living if we don't want to. If we do, then it's our own fault!
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The only solution is to get even better at innovation to the point where it elevates the rest of the wor
Re:you cannot fight the tide (Score:4)
Uh, don't you have this backwards? How long can a country deliberately eviscerate it's working class and expect to remain stable? On the one hand, a working stiff is supposed to amass 5-6 figures in student loans for a top degree, but then have to compete with third world labor?
Which is why Germany produces twice as many cars as the United States while it's workers are getting paid twice as much. You seem to think that this race-to-the-bottom is the natural order of things, rather than deliberate policy purchased by monied interests.
H1-B is about expanding the labor pool, not because of a shortage of labor, but to force down prevailing wages for the benefit of corporate employers.
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What I find funny here (and on other tech sites) is that up until the moment you talk about H1B, everybody's all for opening up the borders and easing up on illegal immigration. It's all lovey-dovey "let's make them legal so they can pay their taxes" up until the point when they're actually legal and competing for the same jobs as the prevailent occupation as the community. But suddenly, as soon as the topic switches to H1B, it's a chorus of "don't let them in, they're stealing out jobs!"
From my experience
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Only because those borders are as porous as can be for corporations and what they desire, for you and me they are quite well sealed. And the notion that they're "better" is illusory. Having worked for several years with one outsourcing firm, I know the crap they churn out and their utter inability to move fast enough to get the job done. If you want it done right, or at all
One of the intented effects of H1B1 immigration (Score:2, Interesting)
is the reduction of intellectual strength and tech development from foreign countries. If you can gather 100 000 highly educated and motivated people from foreign countries every year, and bring them into the U.S, then it's a "win" because these people's efforts will benefit the U.S instead of their home countries. This may displace Americans and put them in lower paid jobs, but that's not as urgent as the fight against the rest of the world. The people at the top of government wants all tech development to
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, but this cuts both ways. If those international workers choose to return to their home countries, they could easily start innovating at home. Then all that time, energy, and experience that they gained here in the United States now becomes a strength in that worker's home country. I suspect this will be the trend, and the United States could very quickly lose it's edge in international innovation.
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I think the opposite could be argued, also. Once they go home, they take their years of training/skills with them, and we lose the benefit of their experience.
Neither CA Senator signed on... (Score:2)
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"Feinstein has always been a closet Republican"
Come again?
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I suspect the GP is confused by what many of us perceive as an authoritarian leaning on her part. Similar leanings tend to be more prevalent in the Republican party, but unfortunately aren't rare in the Democratic party.
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Isn't Feinstein the #1 Senator against the right to own firearms?
So? James Brady WAS a Republican and favored strict gun control. Perhaps you've heard of the "Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act"?
Republicans are more than just about gun control. She has also been very business friendly. Her family has multiple business interests in the City and County of San Francisco. Very little happens there without her say-so, lest it affect her family's business interests. She's also pro-death penalty. She was also very gung-ho about NSA surveillance of American citizens until she
multiculturalism is propaganda fuel of immigration (Score:2, Insightful)
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Easy Solution To H1B Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Also: Create a local IT union. Seriously. You people keep complaining that you're getting fucked and fucked and fucked and yet the moment someone suggests creating a union... well... comments to follow.
expanding the H1B #s is good for nobody but few (Score:5, Interesting)
Work permits for the 1% ONLY (Score:4, Insightful)
Give a work permit to anyone with $250k+ of W2 income per year: they'd have to post a bond for the equivalent in taxes for their first year.
That would cover 90% of foreign job creators, and exclude 90% of job destroyers (cheap indentured servants).
Full disclosure: I came to the US 17 years ago as an L1, then H1B.
In that time I've created lots of jobs and paid > $10m in Fed and local taxes, but I'm a strong opponent of the current H1B system.
It's crony capitalism at its worst.
Oh gee.. (Score:2)
Are the politicians going to take a meeting to form a committee to evaluate the possbility of an investigation into h1b practices?
No shit they are firing American workers, and Zuckerberg is one of the leader in this field.
So if you're using Facebook.... fuck you from the bottom of my heart.
Happened to me (Score:2)
Translation (Score:3)
Ninety senators are fine will selling out their own country.
(Actually, I am shocked that number isn't higher.)
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...and, frankly, I don't have a problem with that.
If you want to incur the hassles of off-shore workers in different time-zones and all, that's fine. You will probably find an appropriate balance between on-shore and off-shore environments. I know some companies who have QA teams off-shore, for example, so that they can basically get 24-hour coverage. The developers make the bugs during "the day", QA finds the bugs during "the night", developers come in the next morning and find a load of bugs waiting fo
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How are software development and computer engineering not included in the IT field? Or are you one of those people who, completely inexplicably, say "IT" when they really mean "System Administration"?
Re:Please Let Me Play Devils Advocate (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is PRECISELY why the corporations MUST be controlled via strong force of law, NOT relaxed pampering and pandering.
Since a corporations fiduciary obligation is the center of the corporation's universe, and all other considerations take second or even third stage (if at all!), then some other agency MUST step in to intercede to protect the system from the otherwise inevitable collapse. THAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT.
The problem is that government panders to the corporations and gives them whatever they want, (and what they want is less legal restrictions on their ability to meet their fiduciary obligations, at the expense of all other concerns and practices) instead of busting their chops and holding their asses to the fire so they have to fly right.
Going "But think of the poor corporations, just doing what they are forced to do by their evil share holders!" is bullshit. Instead, you should be demanding that government do its fucking job, instead of whoring itself out for career re-election dollars.