Unable To Hack Into Grading System, Georgia Student Torches Computer Lab 246
McGruber writes: A 15 year-old Douglas County, Georgia high school student has been charged with five felonies, including burglary and arson, after sheriff's deputies caught him while responding to a 1 AM fire at Alexander High School. The boy admitted to investigators that he set fire to a computer after trying, unsuccessfully, to hack into the school computer system to change his grade on a failed test. "It's very sad and tragic. He could have very easily come to one of his counselors and asked for help," said Lt. Glenn Daniel with the Douglas County Sheriff's Department. "From what we can tell, (the student) was mad and frustrated because he could not hack into the system." Lt. Daniel said the charges could land the young man in prison for several years. The computer lab was cleaned up and re-opened in time for the start of that day's classes.
Insult to injury... (Score:5, Funny)
Just not this kid's day... First he fails his test, then he fails to hack into the grading system before finally failing to burn down the computer lab.
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
there's a "yo mama" in there somewhere.
"Yo mama so dumb, she failed a pregnancy test!"
No, his hack was successful (Score:5, Funny)
He issued an HCF instruction.
Re:No, his hack was successful (Score:4, Insightful)
He issued an HCF instruction.
Shame I didn't have mod points- not just for the joke itself, but because- in a discussion thread that could otherwise have been mistaken for one on Fark or whatever- it says something that this is by far the most reminiscent of the traditional Slashdot audience and style.
Another bad parenting example (Score:3, Informative)
So here is another example of bad parenting. How does a kid go from getting a bad grade to breaking and entering, to hacking a computer to change a grade to arson? Well its not because of the school, or a teacher, or the police. Its bad parenting and not teaching their kids right from wrong and frankly, not knowing where the heck their kid is at 1AM in the morning. When did it become correct to just let your child do whatever they want because you don't want to punish them because they may get made at you? Obviously, this person would rather break into a school to change his grade then actually do the work properly and get good grades.
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Is convenience more important than security? Apparently so, since if the grades had been stored in on a more secure medium such as paper locked inside a vault or safe, it would be less hackable. A networked computer can be hacked from anywhere in the world and has typically thousands of bugs which form entry points for hackers.
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How does one kid go from getting a bad grade to breaking and entering... Probably by following the train of thought that anything is ok as long as you bring home good grades.
That's what good parenting is about, right? Making sure your kids knows that his grades mean everything.
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We are all ears: how do you good parent a kid not to do that kind of stuff?
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Bad parenting... or bad neighbourhood, or bad school, or bad...
It's only when you have kids that you realize that you only have so much influence over them.
Arson? lol (Score:5, Funny)
"The computer lab was cleaned up and re-opened in time for the start of that day's classes."
Lol if we're calling that arson. More like a campfire sze at best. He probably barely even consumed the computer he tried to burn.
P.S. What an epic fail of a kid. Not only was he dumb even to fail a test in our NCLB schools, but he couldn't hack into a Windows computer and couldn't even burn down a computer. Pro tip - try gasoline next time.
Firewall? (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently not (Score:2, Interesting)
If you he have easily asked for help from a counselor, then he wouldn't have tried to hack into the computers and then torch the place.
Clearly, this kid is mentally unstable. However, it is also clear that the counselors did not present a viable alternative to extreme violence.
Rage quit : (Score:2)
pyro level achieved!
Education (Score:2)
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By the time he gets out, he'll know a LOT about hacking computers. ... and time to practice.
Certainly he won't.
For that you not only need access to a computer but also a teacher to teach you
When he comes out most security problems will be solved and tools to breach a computer will be different.
"Hacking" a computer is not as easy as the movies try to tell you.
He probably misunderstood Bob Pease: (Score:2)
A propane torch is not the best tool to hack a PC board, anyhow.
Counselors? (Score:2)
"It's very sad and tragic. He could have very easily come to one of his counselors and asked for help,"
Wow, counselors would help him hack the computer system and change his grade?
I never understood trying to change your grades through that method, usually there is a separate record somewhere, and you would think someone would notice at some point. Yes, failing a test is bad, but getting caught altering it is much worse.
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He was probably inspired by today's CEOs and politicians who have no skills beyond lying, cheating and destroying things. Pro-tip: even these things require some level of skill...
So which of his acts gets the higher penalty? (Score:3)
Great Parents (Score:2)
As stated on 'Squidbillies' (Score:2)
"Georgia Public Schools...somebody's gotta build the cars!"
lp (Score:2)
What no job offers? (Score:2)
He didn't see War Games? (Score:3)
The password is pencil.
Shame on you guys (Score:5, Insightful)
154 posts and no reference to Milton...
Milton Waddams: [muttering] I could set the building on fire.
Re:Hahah (Score:4, Insightful)
He did the crime (actually several), he must do the time.
If he wants to play big boy games then he must accept big boy penalties. Fuck your PC "Oh but he's a kid with his whole life ahead of him!" bullshit, he's chosen his path, let him reap the consequences.
Re:Hahah (Score:5, Insightful)
What kind of rational human being does this? Did you try to set fire to your schools property because of a bad grade? I'll look past the B&E and unauthorized access.
He is dangerous, to himself and others. If not juvie, then a psych eval and treatment.
One word: Cloud (Score:3, Interesting)
Better question: What kind of kid who at least *thinks* he might be capable of hacking the school's system wouldnt be aware of cloud storage/backup? Clearly setting a fire would do nothing to cloud stored data.
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's assume he's managed to live in a world where the subject of cloud storage/backup never once reached the level of awareness.
So, what kind of dolt thinks that the grades are stored on machines in the school's computer lab???
Or was he burning down the lab in a fit or pique because his awesome computer skills weren't enough to deal with the grades being stored on a machine he had no access to?
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:4, Informative)
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Better question: What kind of kid who at least *thinks* he might be capable of hacking the school's system wouldnt be aware of cloud storage/backup? Clearly setting a fire would do nothing to cloud stored data.
In the western world we know that children think and reason differently, don't oversee all consequences of their actions, and because of that we try them differently, in juvenile court. A 15 year old who did not perform on a test, panics and does something stupid. Panic means: no reasoning, no oversight, and the existence of backups is totally forgotten, even if he knows about it.
In the US there is a tendency to try more children as adults, especially when the crime is big, like murder. This is the general tendency resulting from rage and frustration when people are not satisfied with their own situation, and they need someone to blame. They need a black sheep.
This is not a big crime. If the school burnt down, if someone died, that would have been something else. It could have, but it didn't. It's the same when you stab someone with a knife. If two people do this to two victims, stab them in a similar way, and one dies, the other not, the sentences will be different, although intentions and acts in this (imaginative) case are similar.
Nobody was hurt, the next day it was business as usual. So give this kid a reasonable sentence for the damage done, and let him have a chance to see his error and learn from it. The lesson should be that he was lucky that this didn't turn into something really big. Next time his luck may change, and this experience may hold him back then. Send him to prison for seven years and he will come out as a wreck or as a professional criminal. Who wants that?
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:5, Informative)
And we out here have zero idea of what his actual sentence will be. Yes, the max penalties for his felonies add up to 'years'. Will he actually get consecutive, max duration, penalty for each of them? Highly doubtful.
This, of course, depends on any past interaction with the legal system. If he is a repeat offender, then yes, he may well get the max. Otherwise, probably not.
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And we out here have zero idea of what his actual sentence will be. Yes, the max penalties for his felonies add up to 'years'. Will he actually get consecutive, max duration, penalty for each of them? Highly doubtful. This, of course, depends on any past interaction with the legal system. If he is a repeat offender, then yes, he may well get the max. Otherwise, probably not.
If he has not history, he will probably be released on probation.
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That depends on whether he's black or white, and on whether his parents can afford to hire a good lawyer or he has to depend on a court-appointed public defender.
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You know what happened to him? The cop brought him to my house (mom was out of town, I think). "Sir...would you take responsibility for this dude?" 'Yeah, I guess'. The cop then drove off. No lawyer, no PD, no court, no actual charges.
But no. The collective
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Actual life doesn't work like that.
Actually, life works like that. Your daughters BF was just a lucky ass.
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:4, Insightful)
That's one anecdote. I'll give you another anecdote. When I went to Stony Brook U., a bunch of guys I knew were driving in a car and got busted for pot. One guy was a working-class guy from upstate New York, first in his family to go to college, working his way through school (that's why he was selling pot). The other guys in the car were rich kids from Long Island. The working-class guy got a public defender, who told him to plead guilty, and I think he served a short sentence in jail. The rich kids' lawyers fought the charges, contested the search, and got them off. Same offense, same car.
Another important issue is how much pressure the cop and district attorney have to get "results". In Baltimore, New York, and most other urban areas, the cops and DA are under a lot of pressure to get "results," i.e., mess up somebody's life. The cops live in the suburbs, they don't care about these people. In rural Virginia, where everybody knows everybody else, the cops may be more concerned about real policing where they just protect people from real crimes and don't concern themselves with the numbers.
But if you want to be scientific about it, there are lots of statistics that show that black people are more likely to be stopped by the cops, more likely to be (illegally) searched, more likely to be prosecuted, and more likely to be sent to jail for the same offense. That came out in the New York City lawsuit against stop and frisk. Don't forget, Freddie Gray was arrested illegally. The cops had no legal reason to suspect that he committed a crime, even after they (illegally) searched him. It's not illegal to look a cop in the eye (unless maybe you're black and it's in the south).
Some of it is race, and some of it is social class. I used to think that it wasn't race, and you could explain everything with social class. But when I looked at the data, I had to admit -- social class was a lot of it, but race was a lot of it too. America is just a racist country. The sooner we face it, the better off we'll be, although the way we're going I think we'll still be racist a generation from now.
Here's a lawyer who explained it better than I can:
https://www.baltimorebrew.com/... [baltimorebrew.com]
OPINION: Justice for all? Why hasn’t Bishop Cook who struck bicyclist Palermo been charged?
A defense attorney says justice is being mocked by the failure of city prosecutors to charge Bishop Heather Cook
Todd H. Oppenheim
January 5, 2015
(Oppenheimer, an attorney in the Public Defender's Office for 10 years, compares the treatment by the State Attorney's Office and police of the upper class criminals such as Episcopal Bishop Heather Elizabeth Cook, who killed bicyclist Thomas Palermo in a drunken driving hit-and-run, with his own mostly African-American clients. Oppenheim's clients are immediately charged or jailed, while Cook was allowed to go home.)
Instead, she remains free and “lawyered up” with a veteran Towson attorney who has represented many high-profile clients for a substantial fee. My clients can’t afford an attorney of their choice, and they certainly never get the opportunity to preemptively hire an attorney.
The clients I represent never get such treatment. They are informed of their arrests – and not necessarily for what – with a bang at the front door and a swift take-down by an arrest team of officers.
My clients often sit in jail as the state’s attorney’s office sorts out the charges.
(Other examples of wealthy, connected clients who were given special privileges by the legal system.)
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But if you want to be scientific about it, there are lots of statistics that show that black people are more likely to be stopped by the cops
Yeah, and if you want to be scientific about that, and be honest, you'll see that cops stop a lot more people in high crime areas, and that poor urban areas tend to have lots of crime. And that some of those poor areas have a larger black population. If those areas weren't marinated in serious crime, there wouldn't be so many warrants out, stolen cars, cars full of contraband, and the rest.
In Baltimore, New York, and most other urban areas, the cops and DA are under a lot of pressure to get "results," i.e., mess up somebody's life.
What? The people whose lives are messed up are those who have to live in areas like west Baltimore where local thugs
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But if you want to be scientific about it, there are lots of statistics that show that black people are more likely to be stopped by the cops
Yeah, and if you want to be scientific about that, and be honest, you'll see that cops stop a lot more people in high crime areas, and that poor urban areas tend to have lots of crime. And that some of those poor areas have a larger black population. If those areas weren't marinated in serious crime, there wouldn't be so many warrants out, stolen cars, cars full of contraband, and the rest.
I made sure to cite studies that corrected for the possibility that more blacks live in high crime areas. If you read them you'll see. For example, even though drug use is at least as high among whites, more black people get arrested, even for possession. Look at the facts. I can't say any more than that.
In Baltimore, New York, and most other urban areas, the cops and DA are under a lot of pressure to get "results," i.e., mess up somebody's life.
What? The people whose lives are messed up are those who have to live in areas like west Baltimore where local thugs make daily life miserable for everyone else who lives there or tries to run a business there. So yes, the cops are asked to "get results," because the absence of any results would make those areas completely lost to civilization, rather than just sucking generally. Would you rather that the cops were told NOT to arrest known violent gang members, serial assault and battery specialists, and the like? What would you have them do?
You really should read the Bill of Rights. A cop can't arrest "known violent gang members" unless they're committing a crime. If they're violent, arrest them. If they're not violent, leave them alone.
It's n
Re:One word: Cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
I would agree with you, but what we have here is an opportunity to demonstrate our upstanding character to our peers by venting self-righteousness against someone of lesser moral virtue. Before you know it, we'll be arguing over which method of execution is most appropriate, and whether the boy's family ought to be punished as well. No punishment will be quite harsh enough to quench our indignation over what this evil, horrible boy has done. We're an angry mob, and we want everyone to see it because we imagine that it makes us look virtuous. It's the American Way.
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A fifteen-year-old cannot be expected to think through the long-term consequences of his actions the same as an adult, but a fifteen-year-old is perfectly well aware that tampering with grades and arson are wrong and are actions that will be punished.
It's not all or nothing. He can get some leniency because of his age but neither he nor society would benefit from pretending he could not understand what he was doing.
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A 15 year old who did not perform on a test, panics and does something stupid. Panic means: no reasoning, no oversight, and the existence of backups is totally forgotten, even if he knows about it.
Or such and such student figured that destroying the computer lab would also wipe out the records of his "All Fs" report card that he couldn't change by hacking, and he made a "rational choice" on the basis, that even if he would be caught, he anticipated being treated leniently because he was a child, and he
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The charges could put him in jail for 7 years. That's up to the judge to decide, the officers are not responsible for that. (I'll couple that with my opinion that mandatory minimum sentences is the legislature interfering with the judiciary and executive branches, and needs to go away)
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In the western world we know that children think and reason differently, don't oversee all consequences of their actions, and because of that we try them differently, in juvenile court. A 15 year old who did not perform on a test, panics and does something stupid.
We also know that it isn't quite this cut and dry. That is, somebody doesn't automatically mature at 18, and because they are 15 doesn't automatically mean they haven't matured. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and 18 is the normal boundary. But if somebody does something that is so obviously wrong that even by a child's reasoning it is easily established as wrong, then it is something they can and do face the full consequences for. The fact that you're under 18 isn't a license to play Grand Theft Auto i
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It's NOT trying to burn the school down. That's the act of an adult, 15 years old or not.
But he DID NOT try to burn the school down. He did something stupid and childish, which could have burned the school down only if he had been extremely unlucky--huge difference, and judgmental pricks like you who like to conflate what "could have happened" with what "he tried to do" in order to justify your self-righteous and indignant attitudes, who are responsible for the epidemic of ridiculous zero-tolerance policies in schools.
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Riiiight. (Score:2)
Actually, you will do stupid things until about age 25. Because that's when your frontal lobe has fully matured.
This lobe is the one thing which determines stuff like "long-term consequences" and "risk calculation". It also explains why teenagers and people in their early twenties regularly pull stupid stunts - they are literally incapable of fully understanding the consequences of their actions.
Now, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't punish them. But we usually don't punish mentally handicapped people as
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I guess it's time we forbid anyone under 25 to drive a car,
Car rental companies do exactly that.
Just because you were lucky enough to have hyperdeveloped frontal lobes at age 10 doesn't mean that most, or even on average, people do. Apparently you haven't quite reached the stage of not overgeneralizing from personal anecdote.
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Dunning and Kruger wants to have a word with you.
Basically it comes down to this: it is exactly the kid who is not aware of cloud storage (and is pretty clueless about computers in general) is the kind who thinks he might hack the school's computer.
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It is also this type of person who wil continue to be a problem as self-image and actual capabilities do not match at all.
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Better question: What kind of kid who at least *thinks* he might be capable of hacking the school's system wouldnt be aware of cloud storage/backup? Clearly setting a fire would do nothing to cloud stored data.
He must be the kind of student who took a high school computer class. Back in the stone age, when I took computers in high school, they taught you how to program (well, I already knew, but they taught SOME people how). Now, they teach people how to illegally download games, movies and music from the internet. After my stepson took the high school computer course and got an A, he had to ask me what program he should use to write a report on the computer. But he knows how get hold of movies that are still in
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What kind of kid who at least *thinks* he might be capable of hacking the school's system wouldnt be aware of cloud storage/backup?
A kid much better informed as to how antiquated his school's computers are than you are.
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I prefer drugs to state intervention.
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Probably more than you might think. I did have ideas of burning stuff for trivial matters when I was a kid, many of my friends did and one of them acted it (thankfully, he was unsuccessful). A good thing that starting a fire is not that easy and that kids are not too dedicated...
15 is a bit too old for that shit though.
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Did you try to set fire to your schools property because of a bad grade?
According to TFS he set fire to the computer because he was , "mad and frustrated because he could not hack into the system." I'm not condoning his actions, but who amongst us hasn't, at least, entertained the idea of destroying a computer after simply trying to *use* it? I have bad thoughts about my Windows 7 desktop at work all... the... time. And to quote the movie "Office Space," "PC LOAD LETTER!!? What the fuck does that mean?" - didn't work out so well for that printer, did it?
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A good parable, very short, for why we should not condemn the youth. Moral: We were the youth.
http://www.newyorker.com/magaz... [newyorker.com]
If I didn't smarten up when I was a dumb teen I would be in jail too. I think the same is true for lots of fully functioning, well adjusted people that you know and deal with everyday.
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He's 15, so clearly he must be convicted and sentenced as an adult. That way, he can be rehabilitated, instead of just coddled in juvenile detention.
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I find the Officers attitude refreshingly pragmatic and progressive and very untypical.
The cop got it wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Only problem with that is that the police officer was wrong. Georgia law does not mandate that juveniles be tried as adults for 3rd degree arson [georgialegalaid.org] - which is what this was (attempt to damage property of another worth $25 or more [georgiadefense.com]). So, legally speaking, the kid wasn't arrested - he was taken into custody (this difference is so that adults can legally say they were never arrested if their only contact is with the juvenile system - this means that it doesn't tarnish them for life).
So, he committed a delinquency, not a criminal act (a delinquency being any act that, if it were done by an adult, would be a crime).
So, when the article, based on information from the cop, states:
The boy, who was not identified because he is a minor, faces five felonies, including burglary and arson. Lt. Daniel said the charges could land the young man in prison for several years.
, ... he is wrong. The minor faces 5 delinquencies, not felonies. Even detention at a youth detention facility is not considered prison under the legal system.
Unless (Score:2)
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Right now he does NOT face five felonies. That's a simple fact. He may, at some future time, should the juvenile court system so rule. Right now, though, he only faces delinquencies. Given that about 10% of the e population has had run-ins with the juvenile system, this should be better known.
Makes me wonder how many non-criminals who have been taken into custody have thought that they have to answer "yes" when asked if they've "ever been arrested, even as a juvenile" , when they can legally say no.
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You have valid logical and legal points. But the acts would be considered felonies if committed by an adult. The subtle difference between a delinquency and a felony in the early stages are subtle enough not to confuse the typical reader with.
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The very definition of a delinquency is an act that, if it had been committed by an adult, would have been a crime. And as long as the case isn't remanded to the adult system, that doesn't change - he will have been found to have committed one or more delinquencies, not crimes.
Even children in jurisdictions that don't have mandatory remand to the adult court system for acts such as murder can end up being found to have committed a delinquency, not a crime.
Some people would say this isn't right - but consi
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Yes it's a personal attack but you wanted big boy games with consequences didn't you?
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uh, what?
What has my sig to do with economics?
The shitbag in the article committed a crime. He should be punished.
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citation needed.
the actual source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... [wikipedia.org] which is from 2001, written by a statistician not an economist.
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At an adult prison? The experts seem to think locking kids up in adult prisons is a very stupid idea, hence my focus on your stupid luddite sig pretending that experts are not experts which seems to indicate that very stupid ideas have found fertile soil.
Re:Hahah (Score:5, Insightful)
Big boy games?
He was trying to change a high school grade?
He didn't realize it was harder to do it then it seems on TV, he probably thought he was some great hacker because he helped with a DDOS.
Then he got frustrated so he lit the computer on fire?
This doesn't sound like the actions of an adult. It sounds like the action of a standard undeveloped brain of a teenager.
Should he be punished. Yes, probably expelled from school, or in his case forced to take the year over again, and insure his transcripts for his high school tenure give him solid D-'s.
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Right. An adult would get jealous that his GF looked at another guy and proceed to beat the crap out of said other guy. You have a really warped view of "adult" behaviour, compared to your average teenager.
Re:Hahah (Score:5, Insightful)
I think jellomizer was referring to the fact that hormonal adolescents who do not yet have a fully formed prefrontal cortex have a much higher incidence of indulging in risky, violent, and/or unwise behavior as compared to fully grown adults due to the fact that they lack both the experience and the actual brain grey matter to fully think things through which would help inhibit such adolescent behavior. That does not excuse such behavior, but it does not mean we should treat children as if they were adults who generally have a better ability to control and channel their emotions.
I'm unsure why you believe "adult behavior" is on par with teenage adolescent behavior simply because adults can and do engage in similar behaviors (though it is worth noting that often when adults do this sort of thing, their judgement is impaired by alcohol or drugs which puts them into a more uninhibited mental state similar to juveniles). Psychologists would strongly disagree with you if you're making the case that adults and teenagers have the same incidence of such behavior.
You don't treat a 5 year old like you would a 12 year old... nor a 12 year old like a 16 year old. Even still, one should not treat a 15 year old like an 18 or 21 year old.
Personally, I say send the boy to counseling and to juvenile detention, make the family pay restitution. Wipe his record and seal it when he turns 18 so he can have a normal life. Maybe he'll make better decisions when his brain is fully formed and learn from his mistakes. Maybe not. Giving him a felony record and shoving him in a state prison with hardened felons is not great way to reform this child. It may just turn him into a lifetime criminal with new criminal connections and no job prospects due to his record.
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He did the crime (actually several), he must do the time.
he obviously needs help, but how will putting him into a rape factory where criminals are hardened help society?
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I'd've thought the answer would be obvious: for the safety of the public at large.
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this is why they should show videos in schools of kids getting wiped out when jaywalking. If they don't take the example from that and start to take personal responsibility for their own safety then it can only be good for the gene pool
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All we're really doing is setting this individual up to be a lifelong drain on society.
I'd rather see massive amounts of community service to repay the debt he owes to society.
Re:Hahah (Score:5, Interesting)
So presumably you're willing to pay the $400,000 or so it will cost to keep him in jail "for several years" plus the inevitable public aid, unemployment benefits, food stamps, etc for the rest of his life?
Or would you rather pay a few thousand for counseling and public service monitoring?
Fuck your "lock 'em up" mindset. We already incarcerate more people in this country than any other civilized nation, and it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to fuck up peoples' lives and costs us, the taxpayers, millions of dollars.
But that's what we get when we make the justice system a for-profit operation.
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Seriously? With a criminal record, he's unlikely to be able to get a full time, long-term job. So he will bounce from one short term job to the next, filling the gaps with unemployment.
Further, he's probably likely to commit more crimes, even if petty crimes like drug use, so he will cost you and me in police time, court time, jail time. And he's more likely to get busted for those petty crimes since he will be living in high-crime, high police areas; whereas a rich kid would not be busted for simple pos
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He did the crime (actually several), he must do the time.
If he wants to play big boy games then he must accept big boy penalties. Fuck your PC "Oh but he's a kid with his whole life ahead of him!" bullshit, he's chosen his path, let him reap the consequences.
The former Soviet Union, China, and the US have the largest prison population in the world.
So rather than being PC you would rather that we follow the example of the former Communist countries. You have an unusual view of what makes a good society.
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He did the crime (actually several), he must do the time.
If he wants to play big boy games then he must accept big boy penalties. Fuck your PC "Oh but he's a kid with his whole life ahead of him!" bullshit, he's chosen his path, let him reap the consequences.
That's just a straw man argument. The actual problem with treating him as an adult is that that is contrary to fact. He is not an adult.
In the state of Georgia a fifteen year-old cannot vote; he cannot purchase liquor; cannot obtain a driver's license, cannot hold a full-time job. The rules we have for minors assume they're incapable of making adult choices. It's logically inconsistent to believe minors are not competent to make responsible decisions, but then claim we should treat them as if they can
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Splendid, and you will pay the absurd amounts of money necessary to keep him shuttling between the courts, prison and probation for the rest of his life.
American justice -- the second biggest demonstration of the broken window fallacy since Operation Iraqi Freedom.
How is this the second biggest demonstration of failed politics? This is clearly bigger. The failed justice system in the US is a far bigger problem - in the US - than the war in Iraq.
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Splendid, and you will pay the absurd amounts of money necessary to keep him shuttling between the courts, prison and probation for the rest of his life.
American justice -- the second biggest demonstration of the broken window fallacy since Operation Iraqi Freedom.
So what are the alternatives? Shoot him? Or set him free with a book of matches and some printer paper?
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This kid needs serious help. If serious help fails, they need to face punishment for their crime.
Consider: this is a premeditated crime, committed to accomplish a certain objective. It also reflects a series of mistakes, not a singular one, in order to reach that objective. It is not a prank to relieve boredom. It is not a singular mistake to get what they want. It is not a kid being a kid.
I'm not normally a fan of a heavy handed approach to punishing kids. Yet when a kid isn't acting like a kid, they
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Just because the cop said he faces charges that could result in prison time doesn't mean he's going to prison.
If (as you seem to think) he is a poor misguided child who displayed bad judgement on this one occasion, he will certainly be given counseling and probation.
On the other hand, if he's a thug who has already been arrested several times and has shown no indication of improved behavior after the usual help provided to first and second offenders, there isn't much else that can be done besides keep him a
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That wasn't a stupid mistake, it was purely intentional with malice.
I wouldn't be surprised if that kid is a psychopath. An extensive mental analysis is necessary.
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You gonna destroy the childs life because of a stupid mistake a child would make....
You gonna destroy an adult's life because of a stupid mistake an adult would make? That's what the criminal justice system is *supposed* to do.
"Stupid mistake"? (Re:Hahah) (Score:2)
The mistake reveals a stunning lack of morals
A 15 year-old man not only committed a serious crime (arson), he also tried to cheat — and not in a game, but in the most important (at his age) part of life. And that's age, when one is still supposed to venerate honor, integrity and honesty — even if many of us become more pessimistic about these values later in life. Didn't he just read Mark Twain? Heinlein may be despised by the modern teaching class — not the boy's fault — but Jack L
Re: Hahah (Score:4, Informative)
Perhaps prison wouldn't be appropriate for an adult either, here? There is evidence that harsher punishment is counterproductive, increasing the chance of repeat crimes [sentencingproject.org].
A 1999 study tested this assumption in a meta-analysis reviewing 50 studies dating back to 1958 involving a total of 336,052 offenders with various offenses and criminal istories. Controlling for risk factors such as criminal history and substance abuse, the authors assessed the relationship between length of time in prison and recidivism, and found that longer prison sentences were associated with a three percent increase in recidivism. Offenders who spent an average of 30 months in prison had a recidivism rate of 29%, compared to a 26% rate among prisoners serving an average sentence of 12.9 months. The authors also assessed the impact of serving a prison sentence versus receiving a community-based sanction. Similarly, being incarcerated versus recidivism.
This is especially pronounced for low-risk offenders.
Researchers also find an increased likelihood that lower-risk offenders will be more negatively affected by incarceration. Among low-risk offenders, those who spent less time in prison were 4% less likely to recidivate than low-risk offenders who served longer sentences. Thus, when prison sentences are relatively short, offenders are more likely to maintain their ties to family, employers, and their community, all of which promote successful reentry into society. Conversely, when prisoners serve longer sentences they are more likely to become institutionalized, lose pro-social contacts in the community, and become removed from legitimate opportunities, all of which promote recidivism.
If one goes to the step of imprisoning people, then the prisons that perform best when it comes to low risk of preventing future crimes are ones like this one [theguardian.com].
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Perhaps prison wouldn't be appropriate for an adult either, here? There is evidence that harsher punishment is counterproductive, increasing the chance of repeat crimes [sentencingproject.org].
Yes, the reason for that is that putting criminals together, and putting minor offenders together with major offenders, socializes them in the ways of crime. They teach each other how to commit crimes. They get sent away for small-time pot dealing and learn how to steal cars and burglarize buildings.
There used to be some well-run juvenile correction centers that actually did work. My friend's brother wound up in one of them. They taught him to read, they taught him a trade (carpentry).
Unfortunately most of
Mostly Rubbish Research. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yawn, not this again.
While I do think the US penal system is very broken... this research is trivially shown to be a pile of garbage.
It ASSUMES the only cause of recidivism can be the length of prison sentence, and therefore that relation is cause.
It totally ignores that harder criminals, when caught tend to end up with longer sentences (because, well, they do worse crimes..) and that
these same harder criminals are more likely to not change their ways.
Having spent some significant time with people who actually work with criminals in the prison systems I can tell you that the VERY unpopular
but well proven fact is that there are generally two types of people. The prison psycologists often call them the sheep and the wolves.
The sheep are usually these because of a bad situation or foolish mistake that spun out of control. They were late for a meeting, not thinking,
and crashed into someone in their car killing them. Their personal/family situation got desperate so they had to steal to make things meet. They
didnt usually drink much, but had a few that night, arrived home to find their partner in a screaming rage and punched them. etc. All very stupid
and faulty, but not their usual actions. Punishment usually gives them a pretty big reality check.
The wolves however are very different, and not that rare. To them things are for the taking. They have the 'right' to do these things, and the
punishment is just an unfortunate side effect. Next time they will just be 'tougher' and wont get caught. These people tend to spiral up not down
and little if anything works to reduce their damaging effects on society because they see society as theirs to use/abuse as they want.
Prison is often, but not always, overkill for the sheep - they will usually see their mistake.
Prison is often a requirement for the wolves, because is KEEPS THEM AWAY FROM SOCIETY.
Prison is not primarily a punishment, it is a way to protect society as a whole.
This is where the system is falling down - we are not separating those two groups and treating them suitably... because the crime itself does not
tell you which type they are.
Unfortunately there is a strong feeling among quite a bit of modern society that 'bad boys will become good, they just need more love'. The wolves
live on this..It is their free ride and they know it.
We need to judge more on intent and less on crime.
We need a wider range of 'suitable' punishments, and many more 'unpleasant but not prison' options.
We need to accept that some people should not be part of society.
And we need to stop wishing everyone would just love each other more.. Because some people are good, some are bad. Deal with it.
This kid, of course, needs a damn good kick in the entitlements. Not a prison sentence (yet). Only time will tell where he goes.
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Funny enough, if he actually HAD screwed like an adult, he'd probably be in trouble with the law now, too...
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Ruin a child life? Mistakes that a child do? Are you really that stupid? Kids (children) these days kill, rape and other things that were typical for adults. You screw up like an adult, screw them like an adult.
Well except this kid didn't murder, didn't rape.
And he didn't screw up like an adult, he screwed up as a kid!
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This whole "brain is still developing stuff" is utter nonsense anyway. You know when your brain stops developing? Death, that's when. For some reason our society has chosen to infantilize young adults, and then for some reason we're surprised when they act irresponsibly.
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Yours apparently has some way to go. Or maybe it's too far gone.
The brain isn't one big ball of mush. It has different parts that perform different functions. You get injured in your Broca's area and you won't be able speak or write. I've seen it in stroke patients; it doesn't matter that the rest of their brains is just good as new, they don't have any expressive language. Likewise if your orbital frontal cortex is damaged or not fully developed yet, you're going to act like an ass. Doesn't matter how
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And you're telling me you and your friends never did anything stupid? When you were 15 you were as sober as a 30 year-old?
Or maybe treating kids like nothing they do has consequences,
This is what is called a false dichotomy. You don't treat kids like adults who have misbehaved; you treat kids like kids who have misbehaved. Or do you think that a 12 year-old who starts a fire playing with matches should be treated like a 40 year who starts a fire playing with matches, because in the end they did the same thing?
What I'm saying is take the age of the offender into acco