WikiLeaks: NSA Eavesdropped On the Last Three French Presidents 136
Earthquake Retrofit writes: The NY Times is reporting that WikiLeaks has released "material which appeared to capture officials in Paris talking candidly about Greece's economy, relations with Germany — and, ironically, American espionage." The information was leaked "a day before the French Parliament is expected to definitively pass a controversial security bill legalizing broad surveillance, particularly of terrorism suspects."
Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
Maybe it is. But I'm pretty sure if the USA found out that the French had our Presidents office/phone bugged, we'd (the USA) would have a shit about it.
Re: (Score:3)
Yes. But the people to get mad with wouldn't be the French but the people responsible for making sure the office isn't bugged. You can bet the French and everyone else with the capability will try to bug the oval office. I'd be shocked if they weren't. Hell....it may be bugged. That's what spies do.
Re: (Score:2)
This is the most self-righteous, dumbass comment I've read on Slashdot in a while.
Re: (Score:2)
I think you didn't get it....
"If you've got nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear"
Is the broken argument governments are using to "justify" pervasive surveillance of the people.
Why should governments be treated differently from people?
France essentially just took on new Patriot-act style surveillance legislation back in may not too long ago, that allows warrant-free phone taps, e-mail taps, keyloggers, and covertly installed cameras/recorders.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh sorry. If that was meant ironically, I take back what I said.
My irony detectors are not the best.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe... but the French government shouldn't have anything to be concerned about if they have nothing to hide, and if they are trying to hide something, then the NSA is doing a very good thing.
Way too subtle for slashdot.
Re: (Score:2)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
Maybe it is. But I'm pretty sure if the USA found out that the French had our Presidents office/phone bugged, we'd (the USA) would have a shit about it.
Of course you would, Candide [wikipedia.org]...
The only difference between the NSA & the DGSE is that the DGSE has essentially no legal limits, as confirmed by a recent French interior minister. When asked if the DGSE performed the same data collection that was so scandalous for the NSA, he replied "Yes, but here it's legal". Result? One line in French Newspapers...
You can continue to be "shocked, just shocked" that spying is being performed by organizations who's explicit mission is to spy, but we all can see through
Re: (Score:2)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
Maybe it is. But I'm pretty sure if the USA found out that the French had our Presidents office/phone bugged, we'd (the USA) would have a shit about it.
We would have a shit about it? Well I hope we wouldn't be totally shocked over it. That would be rather ignorant.
I'll refer back to the parents comments regarding the NSAs main job. It's kind of the main job of every other agency too.
Re: (Score:1)
People can't really be so naive that they think other countries, even allies, are not also spying on us. Really?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
That wouldn't stop the spying, only legalize it.
Re: (Score:2)
Spying by the DGSE is already authorized by French law and with essentially no limits compared to the NSA. Oversight by an independent judiciary (even a secret one)? Not needed here.
Re: (Score:1)
And it might even be possible - if it weren't for the fact that France would likely be forced to rename their "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries". I don't think they'd go for that.
Re: (Score:2)
France would likely be forced to rename their "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries".
Ici, nous les appelons simplement "frites", ou parfois "pommes de terre frites". Et certains prétendent même qu'elles seraient d'origine belge.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Voulez vous etre sodomise' par une baguette?
Translation: my hovercraft is full of eels.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
When you are willing to sacrifice you freedom and be subjugated to the agreed upon rules of dictator's and plutocrats hit me back! Until then, hope your local politicians continue to protect your own best interests.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Something being someone's job doesn't make it legal or acceptable.
It is legal for the NSA to spy on foreigners. That is the only reason that they exist. Spying between nations is a good thing, because it means everyone knows more about each others intentions and motivations. Exactly a century ago, Europeans were slaughtering each other by the millions, in a world war that they bumbled into by misjudging each other, and because they were unaware of secret alliances that caused the military escalation to spin out of control. Some good spying could have prevented that.
Re: (Score:2)
No it would not. First world war happened not because of misjudging, but because several rulers were really eager for a war.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
And how is that directly opposite?
Rulers generally want a quick and decisive military conflict, but wars usually aren't, especially with both sides of the conflict being similar in equipment and manpower.
Austria-Hungary really wanted a war with Serbia to lessen the inner conflicts.
Russia really wanted a war with Austria-Hungary to have more influence in South Slavic countries and to help the czar to save the face after the Russo-Japanese war embarrassment a decade earlier.
Germany really wanted a war with Ru
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Times have changed. The EU was set up to prevent another war, and it worked. By being friends who trust each other and can work together. and who treat each other with the respect not to spy on each other's leaders, we have made wars unthinkable.
The EU averts war through cooperation and trust. The US averts it through violence and economic might. The thing is, the EU is bigger than the US now, and China will be eventually too. The US should be looking to improve its relations with other nations, especially Europe where it has a lot of history.
Re: (Score:1)
I love how the US trying to set up free trade agreements with other countries is "economic might" but when the EU does it, it's "cooperation and trust". The US has been doing many of those same things. Hell, if the US and EU didn't have such different views on government, the free trade agreements would probably be even stronger.
Let's not kid ourselves though; one reason war is unthinkable is NATO, which is primarily a US-driven force at this point. Hell, most of Western Europe doesn't even have the militar
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Bollocks. There's been plenty of spying since pretty much the moment secrets have existed; it hasn't stopped war, and the idea that if that spying had simply been 'better' everything would be different is completely lacking a compelling case.
If we didn't have any spying then we'd have had no one claiming they had found evidence Saddam had WMD to justify the Iraq war; so explain exactly how the billions of dollars spent on spying helped us there.
Even if you could find theoretical examples to try and demonstrate spying stopping wars it'd be worth nothing. The existence of spying will always be accompanied by counter-measures and misinformation which inherently limits the quality of spying.
Re: (Score:2)
If we didn't have any spying then we'd have had no one claiming they had found evidence Saddam had WMD to justify the Iraq war; so explain exactly how the billions of dollars spent on spying helped us there.
The intelligence services are ultimately responsible to the government. If that government chooses to ignore or distort information for political ends, you can't blame the intelligence services.
Re: (Score:2)
That's true for nation states, but not so much for jihadists. Generally speaking, jihadists don't have the budget, expertise, or organization to carry out effective disinformation, and their counterintel is spotty at best. (Hell, our own is spotty, at best.) That's perhaps one of the reasons the IC has such a hardon for the WoT -- it's a case of overwhelming dominance. At least technologically and economically. When we can't tap in technologically (such as when they're avoiding technology altogether),
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
these are our allies; there is no legitimate reason to spy on them. We know what they are up to by their public actions
No you don't. Even your enemies know what your public actions are, so they are self evidently not the whole truth.
Any alliance is secondary to your own country's interests. Of course you spy on your allies, you are just expected to be a bit subtle about it.
Re: (Score:3)
Right. So is the information NSA has gained worth more than the cost [slashdot.org]?
The problem with realpolitiks is that, with some rare near-legendary examples like Bismarck [wikipedia.org], people simply aren't smart enough to cut through their cultural conditioning to figure out what the actual results will be. So they simply drag their country from disaster to disaster; or, if they're less l
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
A social democracy need not be established by force. For example the Nordic Model [wikipedia.org] refers to the economic and social models of the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands and Sweden), which involves the combination of a free market economy with a welfare state.
Another example would be Australia in years past, though its moving away from this in recent years.
Re: (Score:2)
He wasn't saying you need 'civil war' to bring socialism to a country.
He was explaining that socialist means always involve using police force to achieve their ends, given that they're not voluntary.
Re: (Score:2)
You appear to be conflating socialist with fascist. You can certainly have Fascist socialism, but that is not the only form of socialism.
Re: (Score:2)
[socialists] of force to implement their agenda
You should not confuse socialists from Russia or China with socialists from France. In 1944, the french communist party, which staffed a lot of France insider resistance, mostly controlled the territory after the Germans were defeated. The french communists had enough power to perform coup, but they did not.try it.
And anyway, Francois Hollande is not a socialist, despite his claims. His governments' action suggest he is more neoliberalism fan boy
Re: (Score:1)
None of that negates the need of the NSA to spy on whomever they can spy on. Can the French guarantee they are not compromised? Even if they think so, how can they verify this without being spied upon?
Re: Just doing their job. (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Exactly. If cheese profiteers didn't do their all to maximize their profit on cheese they would be held to be negilient in doing their duties.
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Insightful)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
I don't disagree with you, both about the NSA and "/.", even while i am a Greek (from the summary: "capture officials in Paris talking candidly about Greece's economy"). We Greeks spy on the French, they spy on us, we both spy on USA, USA spy on both of us...
Few years ago we had a Greek spy captured by our friends the USA while spying them, we Greeks waited for a while until we captured a fine spy gentleman from USA spying us Greeks, and as friends and allies we solved this "little issue" like gentlemen do: we exchanged our spies and continued our fine relation (and spying on each-other)... no wikileaks shit, no drama... you send your diplomats to drink some Ouzo in Athens, we send ours for some bourbon, the thing was solved with mutual understanding that "shit happens"!
What exactly most Slashdoters expect from NSA, to sing songs about world peace? They are spies, they spy!
Re:Just doing their job. (Score:5, Informative)
Just want to mod you down for being a deadbeat Greek.
I respect that Sir (especially since you do NOT post as an "anonymous coward")! Unfortunately i think that, even if you had mod points, you can't mod me down since you already made a comment on this story... sorry about that.
Your country owes money, your country needs to pay money.
I agree.
Your poor and destitute can go suck ass as us freemarketer's are concerned.
Greece is still among the most rich countries of the world (keep in mind that it is our state which is in trouble, no so much the citizens).
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
It's called a discussion. Perhaps you should learn how one is structured in a civil manner.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
>> Your country owes money, your country needs to pay money. > I agree.
What is this but pointless drivel? I mean, do you feel the need to assert everything you do or do not believe in?
As a fellow Slashdoter already replied to you: "It's called a discussion. Perhaps you should learn how one is structured in a civil manner."!
Some fellow Slashdoter wrote a reply to me (NOT anonymously), where he felt the need to remind me about this issue since i am a Greek (it was a bit off-topic -not much... the summary mentions "Greece's economy"-, but i also go very off-topic very often, so...), and since i try to always reply (especially to fellow Slashdoters, but even to anonymous like you!)... i rep
Re: (Score:2)
Greece is still among the most rich countries of the world (keep in mind that it is our state which is in trouble, no so much the citizens).
... because 25% of the Greek population and their cousins is employed by the state, twiddling their thumbs or something, Receiving big, nice paychecks, often 13-15 paychecks a year and many being able to retire in their 50's.
Obviously, this is not a sustainable model.
But try to take some of that away, reduce the grants, incomes and pensions to levels that the Greek economy can actually sustain, and all of Greek media starts being indignant about it, blaming Germany and Europe for all this shit.
Re: (Score:2)
"But try to take some of that away, reduce the grants, incomes and pensions to levels that the Greek economy can actually sustain, and all of Greek media starts being indignant about it, blaming Germany and Europe for all this shit."
Its much easier to blame someone else than yourself. I'd have a lot more respect for the greeks if they'd admitted they got into the eurozone by fraud and that their entire tax collection and benefits system is an unsustainable mess and needs to be fixed.
But they haven't and won
Re: (Score:2)
... because 25% of the Greek population and their cousins is employed by the state, twiddling their thumbs or something,
Based on OECD, Employment in general government as a percentage of the labour force (some selective countries):
source [oecd-ilibrary.org]
Receiving big, nice paychecks, often 13-15 paychecks a year and many being able to retire in their 50's.
It used to be one extra monthly paycheck per year for everybody, until few years ago (now it is stoped), and the "retire in their 50's" was not so common as believed (and when true it was more like: "retire in their very late 50's").
Obviously, this is not a sustainable model. But try to take some of that away, reduce the grants, incomes and pensions to levels that the Greek economy can actually sustain, and all of Greek media starts being indignant about it, blaming Germany and Europe for all this shit.
I agree.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure how the OECD compiles these numbers or what the criteria are, but I've read multiple times in different reputable news sources that about 25% of the Greek labour force is directly or indirectly payrolled by the government.
I don't think these sources have been "lying" but I also don't think that the OECD has produced these numbers out of thin air, so I suspect the big discrepancy is through a statistical effect of who you decide to count.
Re: (Score:1)
OECD's latest data is from 2013, but i used it for comparison of Greece to other states (e.g., USA, Germany) - compiling such data is problematic but you can get a general idea (and if you use m
Re: (Score:2)
A quick google shows Greece at around 40th/50th richest in the world depending how you measure wealth, so it's in the top quartile.
Re: (Score:2)
Just want to mod you down for being a deadbeat Greek. Your country owes money, your country needs to pay money. Your poor and destitute can go suck ass as us freemarketer's are concerned.
I sincerely hope this is a joke or a poke at free marketers. Because otherwise... really?
Re: (Score:2)
Free market does not imply favoring debtors over debtees. Why would it? If you're dumb enough to make a bad investment, why would it suddenly be anyone's problem but yours just because that investment took the form of a loan?
Re: (Score:1)
You know what really sucks about this? I truly think Japanese women are about the sexiest women on the planet! I wonder how many millions of them would have died swinging bamboo poles at the millions of multiracial troops that would have been invading their shores had the Empire not surrendered?
Re: (Score:2)
terror bombing and the mass muder in Hiroshima and Nagasaki 45
My father was scheduled to be landing on the beaches of Japan to force their surrender in WW2. If not for the atomic bombs that lead to Japan's capitulation he, my siblings, my children, and my grandchildren may very well not be here today. There is no way you can make me feel sorry for the killing of thousands that saved the lives of millions.
I have never understood the logic behind the argument that the Japanese were prepared to fanatically fight to the last man, woman and child (and would therefore have caused millions of Allied casualties), and yet they suddenly surrendered when the US dropped a couple of impressive bombs.
Why didn't they just go on fighting anyway? What's the difference between your country being destroyed by invading troops and destroyed by bombing?
Re: (Score:1)
I think the idea is that they would have fought harder had they been invaded - you will fight more when backed into a corner. I have also heard proponents cite estimates (for what those are worth is up to you to decide) that the bombs and subsequent damage were less than what would have happened had the Russians and Americans invaded. Others also claim that the bombs had little to do with the surrender but the imminent invasion by the USSR was the primary motivation. The latter claim is a bit dubious but do
Re: (Score:2)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
The issue here is not so much that the NSA spied on the French president. The issue is that said spying has been revealed. That will always rate a mention.
I imagine the French, and anyone else, fully expect US (and every other nation's) intelligence services to try to spy on them. However, once the beans have been spilled the French President
Re: (Score:1)
Sure, the job of a Chinese spy is to spy. If a Chinese spy isn't spying then the Chinese spy isn't doing the job the Chinese spy is being paid to do.
Re: (Score:2)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
The job of a burglar is the break in and take stuff, if they don't break in and take stuff they aren't doing their job.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't shoot them on sight or that anyone who defends that kind of behavior shouldn't get ran out of town.
Except for the fact that burglary is illegal, and the NSA et al have full legal authority to do what they do, that's a great analogy.
But you should have made it a car-jacking or something to follow slashdot "shit analogy" guidelines.
Re: (Score:2)
Except for that whole 4th Amendment thing, and their job being limited to signals intelligence.
Re: (Score:2)
Allies are supposed to refrain from bugging each other's leaders' phones. Part of negotiating in good faith and maintaining friendly, cooperative relationships is not spying on your close allies.
This will make it harder for the US to negotiate with Europe in the future. Trade deals, data sharing, resolving legal matters like extradition and dealing with multi-national companies etc. If the US is upset over EU privacy laws affecting US companies, well fuck you guys because you don't treat us like friends so
Re: (Score:1)
Allies are supposed to refrain from bugging each other's leaders' phones.
Where in "Handbook for Allies" does it say this? Friends don't keep secrets from friends, they share information so they can form a united front against those that would use secrets to drive a wedge between them.
Re: (Score:1)
Wow, you first have to get over your antisemitic agenda before you can hold an intelligent conversation. Though Berlin under the control of Jews would be poetic justice, it will never happen.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The job of the NSA is to spy and if they don't spy on everything spyable they aren't doing their job. Can't even figure out why this would worthy of a ./ headline.
YMBNH.
The NSA has replaced the RPAA/MPAA (and before that Microsoft) as Slashdot Enemy Number One.
If the NSA announced they had discovered unicorns and a cure for cancer, most people here would assume it was cover for additional surveillance powers.
FOI Request ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:FOI Request ... (Score:4, Informative)
Likely going on both sides (Score:5, Funny)
If we snooped them, they probably snooped us. Somewhere there may be a recording of the moment the ill-fated invasion of Iraq was decided:
Dick: Now that the Taliban are gone, lets smash Saddam!
Colin: What if something goes wrong? Iraq is far more populated than Afghanistan.
W: Don't worry, Colie, we whacked the Taliban real good.
Colin: Actually, we don't know where the Taliban went. Intel didn't find enough bodies to account for most. They may be hiding in caves and hills.
Dick: You worry too much. They are gone for now; let the next prez worry about them coming back out.
Colin: I don't want to foul my legacy with a war gone wrong.
W: Don't worry, Colie, Dickie is an expert on blaming it on the Dems in the off case shit comes back later. Look, I almost choked on a pretzel the other day; life is short; go for the ball now!
Dick: Amen! My mechanical heart could clack up any day, and you eat a lot of fries yourself, Tubbie.
Colin: Alright, I did have a bad feeling about this, but maybe it's just those damned fries, eh?
Dick, W, & Colin: "Onward Christian Soldiers!..."
Intel failed? (Score:2)
They should have use AMD computers then!
Of course ... (Score:3)
... the French will strongly protest against their politicians being spied on, and after that, they will pass the bill for spying on the citizens ...
Similar thing just happened in Germany: CDU/CSU/SPD will be passing data retention laws for phone and internet metadata (up to 10 weeks retention period), while they previously reduced the retention of parliament's Internet access meta data to 7 days following child porn accusations against former parliament member Edathy ... Animal Farm references, anybody?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
You want animal farm references on a story about the NSA. Try this link http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/
Re: (Score:2)
They know the USA isn't going to stop.
Fear of the past (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, if we must follow this absurd logic, we could be afraid that the USA will bring back the Slavery into the world. Were not ancient democratic Greece and democratic Rome based on slavery after all? Were not Slavery rampant in the USA still in 19th century?
In my opinion, it is not possible to enter into the same river twice. And it would be much better to worry about the real problems, - the global pollution, mass unemployment, the life extinction on the planet, etc. But not the ridiculous ghosts of the past.
Re:Fear of the past (Score:5, Funny)
And it would be much better to worry about the real problems, - the global pollution, mass unemployment, the life extinction on the planet, etc. But not the ridiculous ghosts of the past.
I beg to differ. We must prevent the French from transferring top secret guillotine technology to ISIS.
Re: (Score:2)
The US was also aware of some early French atomic power work and patents from the 1940's that would have made total US control of post war nuclear power interesting. The US was not going to allow France get into the lucrative post wa
No controversy here (Score:3)
The NSA is supposed to spy on officials.
It is not supposed to spy wholesale on ordinary citizens, especially those in the USA.
It should not be controversial that they spied on French officials.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't get that argument. STASI was supposed to spy on East German citizens. Does that make it right? If it's the NSA's job to spy on allies, why not change their damn job description or shut them down?
Re: (Score:2)
"If it's the NSA's job to spy on allies, why not change their damn job description or shut them down?"
Your naivety is touching. Countries have spied on their supposed allies since spying was invented - the french have almost certainly spied on the USA too. Its part of realpolitik. If you think this is new and unprecedented then its time you bought a ticket for the clue train.
Re: (Score:2)
Your tired apologia for Big Brother is nauseating.
England was tapping the entirety of French communications in 1900?
If you think the Vatican having guards makes them equal to the U.S. military because they both have guns, sure.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
The NSA is supposed to spy on officials.
NSA is also supposed to not get caught. And french officials are supposed to be outraged even if France does that same kind of spying. At least they did not did it AND get caught.
Super Important (Score:5, Informative)
Standard (Score:3)
In 1989 there were some rather delicate debt renegotiation talks in Washington between the Mexican government, USA and the IMF.
Every night, the Mexican chief negotiator would fly back to Mexico to debrief the president, since no other means of communication were assumed to be NSA proof.