Joking About Giving Money To ISIS Can Cost You Money (arstechnica.com) 321
Reader rudy_wayne writes: A person who was using Venmo, an app that allows people to send money to each other via their phones, sent $42 to repay a friend, and jokingly labelled it "ISIS Beer Fund". He immediately got an e-mail from Venmo questioning the purpose of the money. Although he tried to explain "The $42 was payment to a dear friend for two pitchers of Samuel Adams Boston Lager" he was informed "Due to OFAC regulations, we are not allowed to give the funds back to you or issue a refund." The Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control is a 54-year-old institution, quietly working to keep money out of the hands of America's enemies.From the report, "It turns out -- shockingly -- this isn't the first time someone's Venmo transaction was cut off at the knees with a reference to subjects that are a matter of national security. Venmo won't explicitly say what words will trigger blockage, Gawker pointed out in October.
Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:2)
~nt~
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.
Yeah, but if it turned out it really was for ISIS and the institution knowingly ignored and help facilitate the transfer of funds, they would be liable civilly and criminally.
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, and that explains why the money didn't get to the recipient, but does not explain why the money was stolen from the sender.
We never should have let the authoritarians get away with their war on politically incorrect drugs. It led to our government being able to steal whatever they want.
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
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That word "knowingly". I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Gaah! I started to read that link, but what a load of hogwash.
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah they probably memo that as "Payment to a dear friend for two pitchers of Samuel Adams Boston Lager"
And the Department of Financial Security Monitoring (comrade) goes "Oh that's so nice - we approve of that".
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/sarcasm "Curses. Technology foiled by human ingenuity. Again. News at 10."
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:4, Funny)
Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.
Actually, not all of them are. Just the ones that are around long enough to be noticed by anyone besides the people that hunt them.
Remember, terrorists are not super-human. Just like everyone else, 50% of them have a double-digit IQ.
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You think they are exactly average intelligence compared to the general population?
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:4, Insightful)
What I want to know is if any supporter of major terrorist organizations has ever labelled their money transfer as "ISIS Donation"/"Bomb Fund"/"Al-Qaeda". Just give me one person in the history of the world stupid enough to do that, and there is at least some argument to me made for this ridiculous sounding policy.
Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
The policy is not at all ridiculous at all, you just miss the point. Terrorism is a very serious business and we cannot have people making fun about it. Not at airports, not anywhere. The more serious people take terrorism, the more funding is available.
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It is interesting how people cannot see beyond the end of their nose. Stopping alienated Muslim youth running off would be an absolute disaster. That is why we go out of our way to alienate them. To grow the industry.
Remember, every time a government agency spends umpteen million dollars on some silly scheme the GDP of the nation goes up by that amount.
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Actually, for better or worse there are some people who seem inclined to take any reference, that is not serious (or perhaps reverent) enough, to be a BAD THING©. In some places, making certain references will get you in trouble. An example would be making a bomb joke in an airport. Probably not gonna be considered funny by anyone - not even if you're a comedian. It's probably going to result in a variety of repercussions.
So, for better or worse, I don't know what nation you live in but it's certainly
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Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.
That's right. And a terrorist attempting to smuggle a bomb aboard a commercial airline flight is smart enough not to tell the baggage porter, "There's a bomb in that suitcase." But if a regular (non-terrorist) person says such a thing in jest, they will get a thorough anal probing.
Many years ago, long before the establishment of TSA, I was flying with a work colleague to a contractor site on the opposite coast, with a smallish but heavy hunk of electronic equipment that had been under test until shortly bef
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That doesn't sound like a joke to me. It was an honest statement, and relevant to the inspector's question. Granted, it wasn't a particularly helpful response, so perhaps was said with some annoyance, but still, pretty unassailable. I agree with the sibling poster: you were going to the room either way.
I'd like to know how they could have used that statement in interrogation. "YOU SAID IT WASN'T A BOMB? YOU KNOW LYING TO AN OFFICER IS A FEDERAL OFFENSE? YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT STATEMENT BACK?"
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People under stress say and do stupid things related to the source of the stress. And bombing a plane is highly stressful. I would expect that bombers would have a high chance of going to either extreme--at one end is making bomb jokes and at the other end is being too eager to volunteer "oh, no, I don't have any bombs" when nobody even mentioned the word 'bomb' yet.
Don't think that just because it's stupid for someone with a bomb to mention it, that they won't.
Yes, I don't expect them to read the reason... (Score:3)
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federal POUND ME IN THE ASS could of happened.
Re: Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:2)
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Well if I were trying to replace my TWAIN scanner drivers with a different method.
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WTF? (Score:3)
Do they really think that the terrorists explicitly mark the reason for their payments?
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We can't take that chance. Won't you think of all of the children!
On a more serious note, all it takes is for one person to screw up for them to be caught. Something like this could potentially catch such a mistake but that chance is so small as to make no difference. So what we end up with are hidden rules to catch the improbable butting up against the inevitable joke that will occur. It catches the innocent, the profane, and those who are attempt to point out that the emperor has no clothes. Punishing the
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On a more serious note, all it takes is for one person to screw up for them to be caught.
I can see using this for investigating but if nothing is found then the money should be returned. I tend to go shopping at several stores right before a big trip which is atypical for me so it's common for me to get a call from my credit card company or sometimes even have my card get turned off but as soon as they verify that the transaction is fine then everything goes back to normal. They also have random triggers for money deposits or withdrawals at the bank where they write your name in a book if yo
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Think of it this way. They let the payment go through, odds are 99.99% it's a joke. They make maybe $1 in fees. If it isn't a joke, and OFAC nails them, it's at minimum $100k in legal fees, potential penalties, and reputational problems. That's an expected value of $10. So, it becomes a bad bet.
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Re:WTF? (Score:4, Informative)
Think of it this way. An idiot marks a payment as "ISIS Beer Fund". There are only 2 possibilities:
1). It really is money for an ISIS beer fund. If the payment is allowed to go through, ISIS gets to laugh at the bureaucracy and keep the money. In short it's fodder for yet another internet video from our terroristic 'friends' and a black eye for the government;
2). It's a bad joke and not ISIS beer money. Yet if the transaction is allowed to go through, Won't You Think Of The Children types (as well as umpteen Fox talking heads) can get all exercised about how it 'might' have been terrorists. If the transaction is stopped and goes public, then everyone blames the citizen doing it for being an idiot
Or, the third of your "two" possibilities is that the guy simply wants to buy some Isis beer [phoogy.com].
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Easy money (Score:2)
Is Venmo international? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does the Office of Foreign Assets Control regulations apply to an unarguably domestic transaction?
Is this some sort of goofy legal technicality that because the transaction went through the internet they routed it to an off shore server and back just so they could listen in?
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Why does the Office of Foreign Assets Control regulations apply to an unarguably domestic transaction?
Probably because there are quite a few domestic groups that front for the Muslim Brotherhood, who in turn provide support to Hamas and Hezbollah. Like there used to be quite a few domestic groups that fronted for the IRA.
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A "foreign asset" is one owned or controlled by a foreign entity, even if the asset itself is in the United States.
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Well, to be unreasonably charitable to Venmo, that's what they were investigating.
How come every time I try to type "Venmo" it comes out "Venom" and I have to correct it?
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The government did not "listen in". They company did, as required by the government.
That's a distinction without a (practical) difference.
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Computers listening for keywords is fine, but it is supposed to just flag a human review.
Re:Is Venmo international? (Score:5, Informative)
Why does Venmo think that they are the enforcers? Why are they reading customers' note-to-self?
Because they would be shut down if they didn't. The law requires companies enabling money transfers to know who is transferring money to who, and to look for certain suspect transactions and report/block them. Don't blame Venmo, blame the government.
That's why (Score:2)
When I use money for illegal purposes I use money orders!
while not the first time, (Score:2)
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Beer fund, for a so-called Islamist group, how can it be anything but a joke?
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What an amatuer (Score:2)
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I thought that was pipe-laying (can't even find that old lawsuit joke on google... it keeps taking me seriously. :) )
Same as drugs (Score:5, Informative)
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I once transferred money from my savings to checking account and wrote 'supplies for meth production' in the optional for section and it was rejected.
Aren't you glad that your money was not confiscated?
Hi, Jack!! (Score:2)
America (Score:4, Insightful)
Just Add Shazam! (Score:2)
See figure 1 (Score:2)
So Venmo thinks it is acceptable to take someone's money away on arbitrary suspicion of wrongdoing without explanation?
No. They can see Figure 1. [dourish.com]
it's right here. (Score:3)
In this case, "ISIS" is all over that document, like in 30 different places.
More relevantly, it's a wake up notice to share-everything 20-y.o.s to be aware that not everything is a happy go lucky social media commenting platform with no consequences. And Venmo should make that clearer to users that the comment field is not just a joke.
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If I think you think the world is a bit too happy-go-lucky, is it OK if I steal your car?
He should have labeled it (Score:5, Funny)
This would really suck for women named Isis (Score:2)
Then they came for the practical jokers (Score:3, Interesting)
So everyone, add spook.lines to your outgoing money transfers.
^ https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/spook.lines
Beer payment is bootlegging (Score:2)
He was in trouble for two reasons actually: Bootlegging and Terr Funding.
As Bugs Bunny would say: What a maroon!
Obligatory MIB reference (Score:4, Funny)
"No ma'am, we at the FBI do not have a sense of humor we're aware of."
Where does the money end up? (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely the money can't remain with Venmo?
I would have thought that it would have to be remitted to a government department complete with a report detailing why it was seized, who the people involved in transaction were etc etc. Otherwise you have a massive incentive to a company to make up reasons to seize money and you are not providing any evidence to the security forces that would want to track money to terrorist organisations.
If the money is sent to OFAC or similar it should be possible to have that money returned to you on completion of 200 forms and waiting 11.5 months.
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I doubt it. Part of the reason that govt bureaucracies are so inefficient is that every dollar needs to be accounted for and justified in triplicate. Also positive incentivising is not the norm for govt either. They tend to go the big stick and companies call it "cost of compliance" a lot of which is pointless paper trailing.
It's all yours (Score:2)
Nico~Nico~Nii! (Score:2)
Something similar has already been happening to weeabos, who use the term Nico, meaning a smile. Usually either in context referring to the video website Nico Nico Douga or to Nico Tanigawa's catchphrase "Nico-Nico-nii".
Unfortunately, there's also some Iranian corporation by name of NICO, so the term ends up triggering a flag somewhere.
They refuse to rename their restaurant (Score:2)
And 50 metres away: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/... [google.co.uk]
Venmo steals the money if you own a certain Toyota (Score:2)
Guy had work done on his Toyota and used the service to send money, as it wasn't a dealership.
He also had his money stolen and refused to be returned to either payer or payee.
http://www.wheel-size.com/size... [wheel-size.com]
There is a Toyota Isis the morons have zero common sense.
They just scam with arbitrary keywords. Paypal/Capital One/Discover/Bank Debit cards don't care about "comments" they look only when it goes outside the U.S. to verify.
Fake (Score:2)
So did the money not reach his friend? (Score:3)
It's been confiscated? Pretty sure that's not legal, it's called theft.
Middle ground (Score:2)
I'm not a fan of intercepting money this way, but I don't think we can eliminate it completely. But there should be some straightforward and rapid way for the money to be sent on its way as soon as someone has made a cursory investigation. Something like this lends itself to a ridiculous number of false positives (like this one).
Show me the warrant issued by a judge? (Score:2)
How's this not a blatant violation of the Fourth Amendment? The one that says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Boycott (Score:3)
Easy... (Score:4, Insightful)
Legal! (Score:3)
Well, it works for tax-evasion accusations [washingtonpost.com] — why not for terrorism ones?
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Re:Legal? (Score:5, Interesting)
In a sane and just society, civil court wouldn't be the right place to deal with it. In reality, this is a simple issue of theft and all the guy should have to do is file a police report and wait for the perp at Venmo to get arrested.
But of course, we live in an insane and unjust society where essential rights are allowed to be abrogated by contract law. Until we fix that, we will never progress.
Re: Legal? (Score:2)
In reality, this is a simple issue of theft and all the guy should have to do is file a police report and wait for the perp at Venmo to get arrested.
Extremely well put.
Re:Legal? (Score:4)
But of course, we live in an insane and unjust society where essential rights are allowed to be abrogated by contract law.
Using PayPal is an essential right?
You want to use their system, why shouldn't you agree to their terms? You aren't forced to use it. It's a convenience for you.
The biggest insanity of society today is the number of conveniences that people are now claiming as essential rights.
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Taking them to court for $42 doesn't really seem worth it, especially considering in the article that was published he admitted knowing what he was doing (but probably drunk).
Making a joke, even in poor taste isn't against the law unless explicitly defined such as yelling "Fire!" in a theater. The amount should be of secondary importance compared to the principle of standing up to anyone who confiscates your money when you have broken no laws that would give them legal standing to do so.
The rules vary by location and such but in general, getting small amounts of money that are rightly owed to you is precisely what small claims court is for. You generally do not need a lawyer f
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isn't against the law unless explicitly defined such as yelling "Fire!" in a theater.
Sigh, not this again.
There is no law against yelling fire in a theater, even if there isn't a fire, and even if it's a crowded theater.
However, the law does hold you responsible for your actions. So, if you cause a panic, by yelling fire or dropping your pants or whatever, and people panic and get hurt, you will be held responsible for the damage and harm you caused.
But if you yell fire, and nobody reacts because they know you're a dumb joker, then you won't get fined or punished, because there are no laws
Re:Legal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Fine tidbit: The fire in a theater quote was originally from a Supreme Court ruling (and now considered one of the worst of all time) that went on to do a lot more than outlaw stirring up a stampede needlessly, and uphold a law making it illegal to publish pamphlets that urged people to "resist the draft using all legal means", during WW I.
The ruling argued it interfered with Congress' power to raise armies via recruitment. The judge who authored it soon changed his mind, but it was not overturned until freaking 1969.
Re:Legal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Taking them to court for $42 doesn't really seem worth it
This is exactly what they are counting on.
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You went to school with All Mighty Isis?!
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she wasn't all mighty, i mean pretty cool and all but, she did get her but kicked around for quite a bit.
also i wonder what isis thinks of being named after a female heathen god :)
the God, she is funny
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time to visit a panama lawyer
Re: What's in a name? (Score:2)
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I actually went to school with a girl who was named Isis. Guess she's going to have a hard time accepting money from anyone!
I used to watch Isis as a kid -- she hung with Shazam. I would watch Isis while sneaking my mom's Ayds weight loss chocolates.
It was a heady time.
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Same here--without the chocolates.
For those of you kids who don't get it, this [youtube.com] might help.
Re:What's in a name? (Score:5, Funny)
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It's called Paypal, Millenials.
If you're trolling, then reel these in:
https://bgr.com/2015/05/20/paypal-credit-scam-25-million/
http://fortune.com/2012/02/24/ebays-got-a-paypal-problem/
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/paypal_02.html?page=2
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I refuse to use PayPal, and anybody who doesn't take some other means of payment, doesn't get my business.
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That's as much of an app as Venmo. Either gives you the option of using the web site instead.
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Depends on the town. Here in Austin, $21 is actually cheap for a pitcher of craft beer. Heck, a hamburger + fries + drink is $50-$60 at some places in town, and that's not the ritzy downtown places either.
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Who the hell is paying $21+ for a pitcher of beer? Stated that he was only paying for his portion and tip for the two pitchers so does that make it really $42 per pitcher? You can buy a damn keg for that much money.
I guess that depends upon the beer, the size of the pitcher, and the hipsterosity of the drinker. I can tell you that 22 oz bottle of Deimos (a red ale from Ecliptic Brewing in Portland, OR) goes for $9. I don't know what their keg price is, but I'm pretty comfortable thinking it's more than $42.
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Or, "I am Sending money In dollarS"
Re:Um (Score:5, Insightful)
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