EgyptAir Flight 804 Missing (cnn.com) 410
dark.nebulae writes: An EgyptAir flight disappeared on it's way from Paris to Egypt resulting in loss of 56 passengers and 10 crew members. The plane was flying at 37,000 feet when it vanished shortly after entering Egyptian airspace. It was suppose to land in Cairo at 3:15 a.m. Thursday after leaving Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport at 11:09 p.m. local time. CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest said, "Planes just do not fall out of the sky for no reason, particularly at 37,000 feet." He said the plane vanished while cruising -- the safest part of the journey. We'll update the story as more details emerge.
UPDATE 5/20/16 3:57 AM (UTC): Egypt's civil aviation minister says it's more likely terrorism than a technical issue. Greek officials said the plane swerved sharply and plunged from 37,000 feet down to the Mediterranean as the plane left Greek airspace for Egyptian airspace. [Source]
UPDATE 5/20/16 3:57 AM (UTC): Egypt's civil aviation minister says it's more likely terrorism than a technical issue. Greek officials said the plane swerved sharply and plunged from 37,000 feet down to the Mediterranean as the plane left Greek airspace for Egyptian airspace. [Source]
BBC article with links for family members (Score:5, Informative)
also BBC source
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36309492
Bomb or missile (Score:5, Insightful)
There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight and if it had been another pilot suicide the radar track would have shown it descending whereas it simply vanished indicating catastrophic break up. Given the distance from the coast my money is on a bomb, either in the hold or on a terrorist on board.
"modern planes don't just break up mid flight" (Score:3)
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You shouldn't have posted this as AC. You deserve credit for one of the more intelligent comments in this thread.
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So
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Utter nonsense. The Soviet SA-2 from the 1950s could reach 82,000 feet. The US Nike Ajax from the 1950s could reach 70,000 feet. Even the US mobile short-range Hawk of 1960 could reach 65,000 feet. The ubiquitous SA-6 certainly can reach 37,000 feet, and like the Hawk it is classed as a low-to-medium altitude defense weapon. About the only missiles that can't are MANPADS and short-range last-ditch low-altitude defense weapons like Sea Sparrow.
Hell, even the mainstay Br
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Don't be confused by the term RADAR. They don't mean they stopped getting a return echo from active radar, they mean they stopped getting a transponder response. All that means for sure is that the transponder stopped working.
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Re:Bomb or missile (Score:5, Insightful)
There was seemingly no distress call. The rate of descent was swift.
Some reports of a feiry explosion.
My prayers are with their families. So sorry for your loss.
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We are talking about peoples that believe that 1) God is real. and 2) A violent schizophrenic paedophile is their model to follow. Let be real, putting a bomb while in Paris to blow it near Egypt wouldn't be the craziest thing these believes lead them to do. Allahu akbar.
Re: Bomb or missile (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.
Re: Bomb or missile (Score:5, Insightful)
So we're accepting historical context as a valid excuse now?
Are whites finally off the hook for owning slaves?
Thanks!
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I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.
None of that makes him not a pedo. Just because it was accepted then doesn't mean it should be accepted as a thing that wasn't bad now. He put off fucking a nine year old. How very noble....
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You're applying modern laws and beliefs to an ancient time in very different cultures, which is just silly.
In many ancient cultures, not just Muslim, children were "of age" once they reached puberty. Hebrews put the date even lower at a ridiculously low three years and a day. It wasn't until Caesar Augustus during the Ro
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He put off fucking a nine year old. How very noble....
No, he didn't put off fucking a nine year old. He put off fucking a six year old, until she was nine.
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Atheists were pedophiles for thousands of years and still are by far and large. More recently, Bill Clinton was part of an underage sex club. And sex slavery is still active in many muslim countries. Pedophilia is natural and to be promoted in liberal society. Look at Europe. They love it.
Ummm, as a European, nope. Very much nope. Where the fuck do you get that it's promoted? Because it most certainly is not.
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0/10 troll. Pop back to 4chan and try it there. It'll work a lot better with other mongs.
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Unless it was terror by airport security or airport employees.
And Daesh has been targeting Egypt because they figure all they need to do is ignite the Muslim Brotherhood sycophants and then Egypt will be theirs...to have and to hold...until Death takes them all.
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It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?
Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.
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It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?
Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.
Yeah but if you're going to blow up a plane wouldn't you want to do it over land, preferably over a city or something (like the one it just left) where lots of people are likely to see, rather than over some bit of ocean miles and miles away from anything.
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It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?
Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.
Yeah but if you're going to blow up a plane wouldn't you want to do it over land, preferably over a city or something (like the one it just left) where lots of people are likely to see, rather than over some bit of ocean miles and miles away from anything.
Yeah, if you have any control over where exactly the bomb goes off. You seem to be assuming that the terrorist was onboard the plane, on a suicide mission. Which seems pretty unlikely to me.
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Or a trigger set to go off when the apparent altitude reaches 8000 feet (standard cabin pressure).
Re: Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus (Score:2)
Christ, do you have that rant saved, ready to use? Did an Airbus aircraft run over your pet goldfish?
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Best line
ILL TELL YOU WHAT ITS MADE FROM.
MURDER!
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Greece is still in a persistent state of paranoia with Turkey over the whole Cyprus afair, this region WILL be covered by Greek radar.
Well... (Score:2)
Re: Well... (Score:2, Informative)
Precedent suggests otherwise. The bombing of Metrojet flight 9268 took place over the sparsely populated Sinai Peninsula. The Lockerbie bombing, Pan Am flight 103 was originally intended to take place over water so no wreckage would ever be found. That didn't happen because of delays and a change in route because of the weather.
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Them not having telemetric data is very very odd
If only they were running Windows 10...
the safest part of the journey & Charley Hebdo (Score:3)
the plane vanished while cruising -- the safest part of the journey
Unless a stray air-to-air rocket got it into his infrared sensor.
I hope Charley Hebdo will not start to publish cynical caricatures about an air accident again.
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stray air-to-air rocket
Not the sort of thing that's usually misplaced. Granted there are frequently combat aircraft, representing a number of different counties, flying sorties in that part of the world but you'd think someone would notice if one returned with fewer missiles that it left with. Then again, media suppression is also par for the course in some places.
Terrorism is the most likely culprit (Score:5, Interesting)
Planes just do not disappear suddenly.
If there is any kind of mechanical issue, or a hint of it, pilots are trained to report immediately to the ground. All we have at this time is a news report about an automated distress signal, which is released by the plain automatically.
Remember Lockerby: it took years to put all the evidence, and it disintegrated over the ground. Flight 804 has disappeared in the middle of Mediterranean sea, investigation will be extremely difficult and costly. It will take weeks to get the flight recorders and it will take months to gather some plane parts. Marine environment is very unfriendly to the forensic evidence.
Because of the uncertainty, it will have a chilling effect to Egypt tourism (second airplane crash within 12 month), and, possibly, even longer TSA lines in USA. People will now need arrive to the airport not 2 but 3 hours.
This tragedy may also add several percent points to Mr. Trump's popularity, and could possibly win him elections.
I'm sure (Score:2)
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violent movements of the aircraft (Score:2)
a 90 degree turn to the left then a 360 degree turn. Sounds like the flight control system or one of structural components of the aircraft weren't functioning. I would hate to be one of the passengers or crew on that flight because you know what was going to happen. What caused this will have to wait until the investigation completes or unless one of the N number of terrorist organizations claims responsibility. My bet is on the latter.
LOL at CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest (Score:3)
Re: LOL (Score:3, Insightful)
Not funny. Indications are that there was an explosion in flight, but that'd unconfirmed. It's also not clear the cause of the explosiom, if true. That doesn't necessarily indicate an attack; TWA flight 800 exploded because of a mechanical failure. It's way too early to say shit like that.
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Not funny. Indications are that there was an explosion in flight, but that'd unconfirmed. It's also not clear the cause of the explosiom, if true. That doesn't necessarily indicate an attack; TWA flight 800 exploded because of a mechanical failure. It's way too early to say shit like that.
Where are you seeing reports that indicate an explosion? Everything I am reading simply states that contact was lost over water at cruising altitude. Now, there are reports of a distress signal in the area it went down, but given that it was over water and very early in the morning when it disappeared, it is very unlikely anyone would have seen anything. The fact that there was no distress call from the pilots and that the plane simply disappeared from radar as opposed to being seen descending does indica
Re: LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if you're 100% not trolling (heh), it's still incredibly insensitive. Would you accept an Atheist posting something like, "Well, they're just hunks of meat and organs now, I don't get why we're spending so much money and effort worrying about something we can't change. They're dead, can't bring 'em back!".
Everyone of every religious creed (and none at all) can be total jerks. Would it be too much to ask to just at least pretend to be sympathetic?
Re: LOL (Score:5, Insightful)
I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.
Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.
You know damn well what you're insinuating, and you've been doing it all over this thread. It shows an extreme lack of taste or respect on your part, and what's even more sad is that you apparently have nothing better to do. You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas, but if you'd ever survived any of these conflicts (which you almost certainly wouldn't), it wouldn't be nearly so funny. You're probably among the younger population of this world, and you should be very very thankful you never had to live through something like WWII or the Vietnam War, or the wars in the Middle East. While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.
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I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.
Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.
You know damn well what you're insinuating, and you've been doing it all over this thread. It shows an extreme lack of taste or respect on your part, and what's even more sad is that you apparently have nothing better to do. You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas, but if you'd ever survived any of these conflicts (which you almost certainly wouldn't), it wouldn't be nearly so funny. You're probably among the younger population of this world, and you should be very very thankful you never had to live through something like WWII or the Vietnam War, or the wars in the Middle East. While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.
Funny how you excoriate him for his blaming of Islam for what's quite likely a terrorist attack, you then you claim "you never had to live through something like ... the wars in the Middle East", when pretty much everybody on this planet since about, oh, 600 AD or so, has had to live through "the wars in the Middle East", and that's all because of Islam...
I bet you think you're smarter than average, too. Welcome to Lake Wobegone.
Re: LOL (Score:5, Informative)
It isn't confirmed that this is a terrorist attack. Not at all.
Here's my understanding of what's actually happened:
Greek air traffic controllers made contact with the plane in the last check-in, when things were normal and the pilot seemed in good spirits. Thirty minutes later, when everything appeared normal, the Greek air traffic controllers attempted to contact the plane. This was about ten miles from the edge of Greek airspace. There was no response from the pilots. About a minute and a half later, the aircraft dropped from 37,000 feet to 15,000 feet, while swerving to the left and spinning to the right. Contact was lost at 10,000 feet.
That information says it's highly likely that the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. I don't think there's much doubt of that. Beyond that, it's virtually impossible to know what happened. I can think of multiple things that could explain what happened.
1) There may have been a mechanical problem that required the attention of the flight crew and prevented them from responding. A loss of control such as what would occur in a stall could explain these maneuvers.
2) A naferious act by the pilot could explain these behaviors. There have been multiple instances previously of pilot suicide. That could explain these maneuvers.
3) A terrorist attack could explain these maneuvers, especially if the crew was prevented from responding to the calls. That's all speculation.
I don't think it's clear at all that terror was responsible. I do think it's virtually certain the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. It's extremely likely that debris will be found soon because of the large number of search assets in the region and that those waters are heavily trafficked. But it's too early to say it's an act of terror.
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It's quite obvious it was shot down. By Putin.
With an AK!
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Since when was Islam a race?
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I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.
Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.
I bet your the type of prick that walks around with a swastika on and then when someone says wtf you go into a big rant about hows its actually a thousands of years old hindu symbol for good luck.
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- LOL
Either Land O' Lakes (awesome butter, yo) or League of Legends (meh).
- racism
That thing that happens when you don't hire enough minorities in spite of applicants being completely unqualified for the positions at hand.
- apology?
I'm sorry you're a douche. :(
Re: LOL (Score:5, Informative)
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"[In] biology a population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies."
Once again: a religion is not a genetic type. It's a set of ideas within a culture that people can freely adopt. Even Lysenko didn't believe that religion was transmitted genetically.
to complete the quote (Score:2)
we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands
part of Oneness is noting when to Be Silent
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Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:4, Informative)
There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:4, Informative)
The (non-pilot) man-caused failures are limited.
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:4, Funny)
There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...
Anything like that though and you'd think they'd be able to track the plane as it descended. The pilots would be able to get out an 'oh fuck' etc. From what I gather it just sorta disappeared from 40 odd thousand feet. I think we must follow logic and conclude...aliens.
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:4, Funny)
More accurately, ancient aliens, they can travel time, y'know. Where's the greek guy with the electric hair to explain all this?
Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost everywhere is safe. there are tens of thousands of flights a day, one in a month is odds I'll take. It's better odds than me being killed by some moron in a SUV on my drive to work.
Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh dear. You're not on message. You need to be very afraid (terrorists) and concerned (children). You have to big-up the terrorists, exaggerate their capabilities, and greatly exaggerate the danger they pose.
Remember, terrorists use encryption. So don't do that, please.
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At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.
Regardless of the cause, increased airport security and fresh offensive on encryption in coming in 5..4..3..
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Unless it suffers catastrophic failure. There's no reason to assume a deliberate act at this point.
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At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.
The risk of this happening to any given plane is so low that to say that there is a real decrease in safety is alarmist.
Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?
TFA mentioned the tight security at CDG. Did you read TFA?
How many times over the past few years have we seen reports of "rioting youths" in Paris....
How does "rioting youths" relate to airport security?
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Informative)
In the streets, not in the airport. Even the Brussels bombers had to blow themselves up in the check in area because it's was doubtful they'd have got though security.
Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this (Score:5, Insightful)
My opinion that is the best place to do it and I have been saying that since Sept 12,2001. Highest concentration of victims is in security lines.
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It doesn't though. Look a the fatalities from recent suicide bombings in the West:
London: 52 (4 bombs in 4 locations)
Madrid: 191 (10 bombs in 4 locations)
Boston: 6 (2 bombs)
Paris: 130 (7 bombs in 3 locations)*
Brussels: 32 (3 bombs in two locations)
* Paris was quite different - it highlighted how infective bombs are compared to firearms:
Stade de France: 3 bombs, which killed 4 (including 3 bombers)
4 Restaurants: 39 people killed by automatic weapons & one bomber killed by his own bomb
Bataclan: Majority o
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And what has that to do with breaching security at an airport?
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I'm about to blow your mind. Security at airports is significantly higher than at magazine offices and rock concerts. Airport = lots of security people, scanners, sniffer dogs, things like that. Magazine office = not so much. Rock concert = gimme your ticket.
Get all that?
I should be amazed that your followed that asinine point with 'grow up' but I guess I'm too conditioned to slashdot's tone.
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I'm not trolling, Slashdot.
20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent.
Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.
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Getting? First generation Muslims were equally radicalized however then-Europe didn't accept that. Now Europe must accept all sorts of religious nonsense or consider serious fines and even jail time for "hate" speech (even this comment could be construed as such). That and Muslims are breeding out natives by both natural propagation and force, the large cities like Paris and Brussels are no longer safe to the natives, a problem that started only a few decades ago.
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That the US government (from President to Secretaries of State) have been colluding to give more and more power to these imams?
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Informative)
At what point would you know longer call it a "few muslims"?
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Insightful)
Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.
It would be more correct to say that disfranchised, young people in deprived areas are the ones that get radicalised. At the moment this group includes a large proportion of Muslims, but there is no reason to equate the two, for many reasons:
- We have historically seen this happen many times; in the beginning of the 20th century, we saw large numbers of Fascists, Communists and, yes, Conservatives in organised street fighting, we have seen the Suffragettes, and so on - every time there has has been a large proportion of young people who felt they had nothing to lose, and that they had to do something. Religion may have been the excuse sometimes, or idealism of one sort or another. This time there are many Muslims, because that particular group has recently contributed large numbers of migrants into Europe, and it is very hard to grow up as a teenager in between cultures. But it has nothing to do with their religion.
- Although there are many extremists at the moment, who self-identify as Muslims, they are not the only ones; we also have nominally Christian extremists (how absurd is that: 'pro-lifers' committing terrorism offences), there are some that call themselves 'Communists', 'Maoists' or Neo-Nazis. Whatever their ideology or religion, this is only an excuse they use to justify their atrocious actions to themselves.
I think, if we always point the finger of blame away from ourselves, we miss the opportunity to address the very real issues that cause this to happen. We have to accept that the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified, and we need to face up to the fact that we play a big part in creating these injustices. And then we need to fix the problems.
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, not exactly. There's several books by Arabs, Moslems, etc. who point out that there really is an Islamic ideology which aims to take over the world. Think of it like Communism. Certainly, Western Islamophobia exists, but so does Islamic Westphobia. And this isn't to paint everyone with the same brush. They are quite clear though, that Islamism, or whatever you want to call it, exists, and it isn't just a reaction to bigotry and marginalisation. Besides, too often, even the general public notices that this or that young radical, actually came from a nice middle class neighbourhood and was studying medicine at university. It is an ideology. It blocks reasoned thinking. And it has some support at all levels. When the OIC (representing 57 Muslim countries) claims that "universal human rights" are ok but ONLY the ones which don't contradict Islam, that's part of the problem. Yes, Islamophobia exists, but it isn't what's driving the ideology.
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Yes, there is undoubtedly some of that.
On the other hand, many people (not you per se) grossly overestimate the fraction of Muslims that are Islamists, in this sense. Partly this is because they are a disproportionately loud fraction, but there is also the deliberate exaggeration on the part of Le Pen, Wilders, Farage, and so on, i.e. far-right nationalists who need "others" for us to fear.
Also, let's not forget that this colonialist mentality you are describing here used to be par for the course for us Eur
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One of the current problems is the number of lives one extremist is able to claim before he's stopped. Look at the attack on the rock concert in France, or the airport in Bruxelles, or a plane getting taken out of the air.
If one person can kill hundreds, even having less than one percent of muslims be extremists is a really, REALLY big problem.
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't that also the agenda of Christianity and every other fanatical missionary religion in human history?
With some historical differences.
Both Islam and Christianity are spreading religions. That is, it's a tenet of faith that it's a good thing to spread the faith by conversion. One can compare this to, e.g., Judaism.
Christianity has been spread by both force and by missionary activity. The earliest conversions were almost entirely underground and "bottom up." Many later conversions were "top down". Today it's pretty much universally agreed that conversion cannot be forced and must be personal. Even the most imperialist missionaries of the the 18th and 19th centuries were almost always essentially aid workers as well (building schools, hospitals, etc). Yes, they did have an ulterior motive!
Islam has also been spread by both force and by missionary activity (See the relatively peaceful spread of Islam in e.g. Malaysia and Indonesia). Unlike Christianity, the early and most rapid spread of Islam followed pretty much exactly with the Arab conquest of North Africa through Central Asia, southern Europe through Africa. Islam has historically been linked much more tightly to political apparatus than Christianity--I like to think of it in terms of Islam being a "triumphalist" religion (winning battles and expanding rapidly in the time of Muhammad) versus Christianity as underground of subversive religion--spreading underground through conversion (think even today, the house churches in China). The climax of Islam is Muhammad receiving revelations from god and winning. The climax of Christianity is Jesus being executed for his beliefs and actions. Quite a difference!
Islam has also been much more concerned that Muslims live in Islamic controlled states--not that the polities necessarily have to be 100% Muslim. This is Marshall Hodgson's term "Islamdom." The sphere of the world controlled by Islamic political powers and largely Islamicate (his term, again) in terms of culture, but that may not even be majority Muslim in terms of faith of the population! So historians think that it may have been the 18th century before a majority of Egyptians were Muslim, for instance (after over a millennium of Islamic rule).
In terms of that interesting word jihad, that's widely debated. Some would argue that jihad is never about conversion. I don't believe that. For recent examples, see for instance the area of Afghanistan formerly known as Kafiristan (Lands of the Unbelievers) and now known as Nuristan (Land of Enlightenment) after a jihad of forced conversion in the 1890s. See also the jihads of forced conversion in West Africa in the 18th and 19th centuries. Or, for the matter, the stealing of Nigerian Christian girls and their forced conversion in Nigeria today.
So, that all boils down to, do Christianity and Islam both have as its agenda to "take over the world?" Yes and no :-) I would say that Islamic theology has long had a greater interest in Islamic institutions being in political control than has Christian theology. IMHO, that's one of the reasons Europe was able to overcome religion and secular humanism, the age of reason, and all that good stuff came about.
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Yeah I am not seeing the point in this distinction, unless it is to claim that Islamism is somehow unique among all other upstart strata of society in history and that it uniquely deserves casting suspicion on all members of its larger base of Islam. This seems highly unjust, and catastrophically misleading when applied to coming up with a plan to combat it (i.e. let's attack Islam and radicalism, because Islam has somehow done something as a whole to deserve that, and it's not like it's going to increase
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Insightful)
the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified
It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people. The young muslim who wasted his time in faith schools should be angry at his parents for denying him a prosperous European life. The young muslima who keeps segregating herself from her European peers by wearing a hijab should be angry at her family as well. It's not us Europeans who require these things from young immigrants. It's their families' misguided desire to be true to their roots which costs them the chance to be a valued part of the European society. It's not exclusion. It's a failure to join.
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Although there are many extremists at the moment, who self-identify as Muslims, they are not the only ones
The most interesting extremists right now are Muslims.
I think, if we always point the finger of blame away from ourselves, we miss the opportunity to address the very real issues that cause this to happen.
Yes, we intentionally exacerbated them as a problem so that we would have an enemy, that is irresponsible. However, religion is a cancer. Nobody should be so easy to fool and rile up and make violent.
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:4, Insightful)
There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?
Liberals defend Islam because the largest critics of Islam are Christian conservatives--the liberals' biggest boogey-man. If conservatives oppose something, liberals feel compelled to defend it. Additionally, there is the liberal commitment to cultural relativism & multiculturalism. If Muslims want to execute homosexuals, abuse their spouses, or arrest women for not wearing hijabs in photos on the internet [bbc.com], it's because those things are their cultural norm, so who are we to judge?
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Insightful)
Jesus, look at you guys - even your strawmen have strawman arguments now. If you want to know what somebody thinks, try asking them instead of playing your six degrees of imaginary argument bullshit. The first thing you are likely to discover is that (big surprise), people are more complex than 'Liberal' and 'Feminist' and the ridiculous mischaracterized personae that you have built up behind those words. I could type out the epic debate where I utterly trounce a 'Conservative Christian' or a 'Trump Supporter' who just keeps thinking the same dumb shit; but I don't, because that is a cartoon character not a person, and because that would be a masturbatory, idiotic thing to do.
But you guys go ahead and give 'em what for though - everybody's cheering for you! And by everybody I mean all the other fictional characters who populate your papier mache worldview.
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:5, Informative)
How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in?
About 4.4 million.
(2.7 million in Turkey, 1.5 million in Lebanon and 1.2 million in Jordan).
What was your point?
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:4, Insightful)
"A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. "
Leftists also reflexively defended the enemy during the Cold War, but in those days I could see a rationale, since Communism was an exaggerated version of their own belief system. But jihadism is totally opposite to everything our left stands for right now: status of women, prisoner rights, gay rights, worker rights, and use of rape as a standard tactic for exercising power and outbreeding the local population. Our left loves to mock every other religion, but curiously not this particularly bad example of one.
Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days. (Score:4, Informative)
There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?
All you had to do to avoid looking like a stupid right wing blowhard was to run a web search [lmgtfy.com]. Three moslem countries seem to lead the list:
Turkey 2,748,367
Lebanon 1,500,000
Jordan 1,265,000
Germany 484,000
Greece 496,119
Re:It's amazing (Score:5, Informative)
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Who modded you Insightful?
I swear I have no idea. It's a mystery on par with the disappearing jetcrafts.
here's the full playback of its flight, including where it is right now. [flightradar24.com]
I dutifully kept that link open for an hour but the plane doesn't seem to be moving.
Where would you rather spend the money? (Score:2)
If you have an airplane safety budget, would you rather spend it on preventative safety measures, or speeding up the location of the very small number of planes that crash and aren't found quickly? Other than a few notable exceptions (AF447, MH370 being the main ones) we generally find planes within an adequate amount of time, especially considering that it typically takes months to conclusively determine the cause of an incident and make recommendations that might improve safety.
This plane has probably bee
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And containing transponders with limited range that only have 30-day battery life.
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.. how we have sent a rocket out of solar system, are planning to transport (and keep track of) bunch of nanobots to Alpha Centauri, but somehow keep losing 40 ton metal leviathans on pansy little Earth.
From January 2015-Feb 2016, US carriers alone flew a combined 8,389,595 (passenger) miles with an airborne time of 19,506,911 hours. Please note that these numbers do not include cargo flights. The latest data from the DOT shows 6,676 aircraft in use by air carriers in 2014. General aviation for that same year is 204,408 aircraft in service. And these are just US numbers. With numbers like that I'm impressed their aren't more incidents than there are. Shows how good our engineering really is.
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Looks like someone managed to get something on the plane.
I wonder how much "Allah Akbar"ing was going on ?
Given recent events, terrorism does in fact seem like the most likely hypothesis.
However, regarding your slur of the "Religion of Peace"... who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism? Christians? Catholics? Irish Catholics? Or just the IRA and their supporters?
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who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism?
The UK. Take away all "legitimate" means of response and what is left?
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I wish I had points to vote this up.