Model X Owner Files Lemon Law Suit Against Tesla, Claims Car Is Unsafe To Drive (bgr.com) 243
An anonymous reader quotes a report from BGR: When designing the Model X, Tesla went more than a little bit overboard in trying to trick out its crossover SUV with as many bells and whistles as possible. Not only did Tesla's overly ambitious development delay the launch of the Model X, it has arguably resulted in a noticeably higher number of quality control issues than we're accustomed to seeing. Hardly a controversial point, even Tesla CEO Elon Musk has conceded that the company was far too zealous when developing the Model X. While some customers with frustrating Model X issues have noted that Tesla has been quick to fix any problems, one Model X owner from California has had enough. According to the Courthouse News Service, via Teslarati, Barrett Lyon recently filed a Lemon Law claim against Tesla, arguing that the car's problems are unfixable and that it's ultimately unsafe to drive. In addition to finding that the front door would often slam shut on his leg, Lyon's suit details a slew of other problems, including Auto Pilot problems, touch screen freezes and more. A Tesla Model S owner, on the other hand, reported that his vehicle went rogue causing an accident all by itself.
I'm here to help (Score:5, Funny)
I'll take that dangerous un-fixable lemon of a Tesla off your hands. I'll even give you $300 for all the emotional trauma the car caused you.
Suprised (Score:2)
I am surprised that Tesla would allow things to get to the point of needing to file a lemon lawsuit against the Tesla X. Given Elon Musk's statements regarding the Tesla model X and their willingness to fix all things I am quite surprised they just did not buy the thing back from the guy to avoid the bad publicity and the potential that a finding against them would require them to recall all of the model X cars for safety issues. Just reinforces the point that buying the bleeding edge of technology does com
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The guy probably owns a GM dealership...or gets paid by one. Or maybe Ford. ;-)
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I am surprised that Tesla would allow things to get to the point of needing to file a lemon lawsuit against the Tesla X.
Scenarios:
1. Guy is an over-entitled fuckwit who has problems communicating with everyone. These are typically also the people who complain about your customer service when you go out of your way to help them.
2. Guy is a lawyer who's sue happy and just looking for a free upgrade.
3. Guy is being paid by someone to form bad publicity.
It doesn't all have to be Tesla's fault. There's very little you can do to stop someone suing you. Now there's actually a lot you can do to stop someone from winning a suit. That
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Tesla delivered their first production Model X in September 2015 [wikipedia.org]. Cumulative sales totaled 2,612 units through March 2016.
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I thought it hadn't yet gone into production series, so it's still prototypes.
The Model X has been out for a while. It is the Model 3 [teslamotors.com] that is still being developed. The Model 3 is a much more interesting car, because it will be affordable by normal people.
Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype? (Score:4, Interesting)
These parents can afford a Model X but they send their kids to public school in Chicago.
A Model X is over $100K and maybe lasts 5 years, where private school in Chicago can run you about the same (e.g., Montessori Academy of Chicago sets you back about $20K/year)... Of course the ability to spend money isn't the same as spending priorities. Hey if you can't afford both ;^)
Go figure - the quality of education can't be all that bad.
Whose education? What the parents received to make the choice or what the kids will receive in the school? ;^)
FWIW, I generally personally recommend public over private schools (even if it was affordable) except in extreme cases (e.g., genius kid, or massive gang infiltration)
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It's more like comparing Apples to Tardigrades.
Tardigrades are freaking awesome! Kinda cute, and serious hardcore, can survive space conditions.
Now back to our regular story.
Seems simple give him his money back, in the exact same manner as lemon law returns from every vehicle manufacturer.
There are 150,000 cares ever year that are lemons http://www.nolo.com/legal-ency... [nolo.com]
So what kind of idiot thinks that there will not be even 1 Tesla and that it is such a tragedy that it is front page news on Slashdot.
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Some people care more about appearances than common sense. One doesn't necessarily confer the other. It could be a work vehicle and they do not own it. It could be that they used the kids private school tuition fees to be able to afford it (through the magic of loans and having to pay it back ). It could also be that they are more concerned about their their friends or someone else views about public education or hold them themselves.
Or, they could simply own a car dealership and drive the stuff they are s
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Thousands?
Let me guess. You don't wrench but felt the need to comment anyhow?
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Maybe not thousands that are actually moving, but certainly hundreds if you include all the minor stuff like piston rings, valves, pump motors and splines and gaskets, bearings, various other random seals and gaskets, etc. And add in all the other stupid emissions junk like oxygen sensors, and you probably do have thousands of parts that frequently fail, but I wouldn't want to try to add them all up....
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And add in all the other stupid emissions junk like oxygen sensors, and you probably do have thousands of parts that frequently fail, but I wouldn't want to try to add them all up....
There are only thousands of parts in the whole car. Try hundreds. It depends very much on how you count. Is an AC compressor clutch one part, or three, or five? An argument could be made for any of these things.
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Thousands of moving parts is probably accurate on many cars.
Take your standard ZF automatic transmission alone for instance. There are solenoids bearings and rotating clutch packs which are all available from ZF directly as separate parts you can buy, a collection of seals are usually destroyed while getting to them. You can buy overhaul kits but even a proper fluid change usually involves replacing the filters and gaskets. The fluid is even a separate part number.
When a CV joint fails, mechanics often don'
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Take your standard ZF automatic transmission alone for instance.
Ugh, I'd rather not. I have a ZF5HP42A already.
There are solenoids bearings and rotating clutch packs which are all available from ZF directly as separate parts you can buy, a collection of seals are usually destroyed while getting to them.
A clutch pack has like twelve parts and there are only what, three of them?
The grease is a separate part
It isn't. It's a lubricant.
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http://media.photobucket.com/u... [photobucket.com]
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Actually this one is better... http://www.makcotransmissionpa... [makcotrans...nparts.com]
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A typical V8 engine has way more parts, let alone a very complex one.
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Main wiring-harness for a decent sized modern car is easily in the 100-200 piece range - yes, that's the most complex component (followed by dashboard and center-console).
Source: A decade in the automotive industry, working in US, EU, Middle East, Africa and east Asia.
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Main wiring-harness for a decent sized modern car is easily in the 100-200 piece range - yes, that's the most complex component (followed by dashboard and center-console).
The wiring harness will be about as complex for an EV as it is for an ICE. Also, there's way more than 200 pieces in a wiring harness; each lead, each connector, each pin is a separate piece.
Dashboards (clusters, really - a dashboard is not a part, it's an area) are fairly fiddly, but they are mostly going digital now. Sooner or later nobody will make cars with analog gauges any more. Center consoles, what do you mean? That's body work. You mean the whole center stack, with the HVAC control, stereo, and air
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The original claim, which has been lost in the noise, was moving parts.
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The original claim, which has been lost in the noise, was moving parts.
Yes, I recall. But I'm happy to follow the conversation. Even if EVs have just as many wiring connections as ICEs they'll have less vibration, and thus less faults...
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Toyota says a complete car has about 30,000 parts. For sure, more than 1/30th of those are going to be in the engine.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/kid... [toyota.co.jp]
For the purpose of how complicated a car is, a part is clearly everything that is manufactured separately. Not the bundle of parts that happens to come in a pack when you order a replacement. Every nut, bolt and ball bearing is a separate part.
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Every nut, bolt and ball bearing is a separate part.
I would agree with that. One point of failure in any of the components that create the unit is a pathway for the unit failure. But realistically it is more obvious than that. Use a grade 5 nut with a grade 8 bolt and you just lost the benefits of the higher strength grade bolt. Use a bad diode in an alternator and it will not charge the batteries.
Electric will be more reliable for other reasons than the number of parts too. It is the same reasons that turb
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Even there, it's still not thousands of moving parts in the engine and drivetrain. Especially with a timing belt. A true roller bearing timing chain will double the parts count of a motor. But you're still talking a few hundred parts.
The engine computer will have about as many parts as your average motor, the stereo/entertainment system will have many more. Electronics dominate parts count.
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And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.
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And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.
No way. It takes way more code to control a gasoline engine than an electric motor. Like, dramatically more.
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And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.
No way. It takes way more code to control a gasoline engine than an electric motor. Like, dramatically more.
Maybe it does, but it doesn't take more code to control an ICE than a Tesla. One ECM unit I worked on was a mere 2kb of code.
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Thousands? You could build the entire vehicle if your part count was thousands... 4 pistons, 8 rings, 4 conrods, 1 crank shaft, a couple of bearings and you have a 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine. If you then want to add in 1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb. For ignition, none of those parts move so those don't count. Cassette gearbox, lets assume your counting each gear independently - lets say 20 parts.
Re:I would like a simpler electric car (Score:5, Informative)
Actually according to NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association), modern cars has more than 10,000 moving parts. We aren't talking about your model car.
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Keep in mind that those 10,000 moving parts also mean the bearings on the door, the door pins, the wiper blades, wheel bearings, hinges, roller bearings for moving the seat, toggle switches and so on. Engines are for the most part, simple mechanically speaking. Same with manual transmissions which have fallen out of favor in a lot of places. Though I'm quite impressed over the last 10 years with the changes to automatics especially with the move to harmonic transaxles.
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Look up BMW Valvetronic or an exploded diagram of a ZF automatic transmission.
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From what I remember helping a mechanic on fixing a 2003ish Volkswagen, engine is a mess. From sight you can count 20-30 shell parts, things that contains things. I remember most shells we replaced parts in, those contained at the least 5 parts each.
Then you look at things like Windshield wipers, which is often 5-6 parts. And there will be 3 meters of cable to get the washer liquid to the back window.
The BMW valvetronics you talked about is also a good example. 8-9 parts.
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Thousands? You could build the entire vehicle if your part count was thousands... 4 pistons, 8 rings, 4 conrods, 1 crank shaft, a couple of bearings and you have a 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine. If you then want to add in 1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb. For ignition, none of those parts move so those don't count. Cassette gearbox, lets assume your counting each gear independently - lets say 20 parts.
Build an engine and drivetrain with only 20 parts and get back with us. Challenge accepted?
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I did say about 40 moving parts. But here - you count the moving parts - https://louisdietvorst.files.w... [wordpress.com]
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
I thought those were sex toys.
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Assuming you solve all of the problems that lead to it's disuse, you're still going to go over 20 moving parts.
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pushrods? camshaft? valves? valve springs? rocker arm? oil pump? gas pump? axles? bearings? ballbearings within? brakes? steering wheel? pedals? starter motor? windshield wipers? water pump (and components therein)? differential (and components therein)? various belts and pulleys? ...I'm getting bored.
Heck, I'm pretty sure a modern car has over 100 ball bearings alone.
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Heck, I'm pretty sure a modern car has over 100 ball bearings alone.
Closer to a thousand on your modern vehicle. Wheel bearings depending on their design can have 50 per axle. But you can build an engine with 20 moving parts, they're called wankel engines. They can even be fully air cooled, require no oil pump, and so on. There's also been a few designs like ceramic engines which can have no traditional bearings at all.
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First - Drive train was the comment. 2nd I said 2 stroke that kills valves, cams, rockers, oil pumps, water pumps (if air cooled).
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One interesting use of ball bearings I noticed in engines are with a spring as a one way check valve in oil passages... there are a surprising number of them used this way...
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Carburetor... that's so cute, gramps! I'm just amazed that your K-car is still working. ;)
There are a lot more moving parts to an engine. There is far more than a couple bearings - your average timing chain alone is comprised of hundreds of parts (at least I hope your engine has a timing chain; timing belts are an inherently flawed design), and you forgot the valve, lifters, valve springs,(and rocker arms and pushrods if it's not OHC, which will introduce additional parts for adjusting valve lash plus addi
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Why can't people read 2 Stroke!?!?!?
Yes I used an old design concept, yes it wouldn't pass EPA now. No you probably can't buy one. It doesn't mean that you can't build an ICE with a smaller number of MOVING parts than 1000s in the drive train.
However to be fair my crap mobile was a motorcycle so I'm not comparing apples with apples eaither.
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Okay so you have a Saab Sonnet with a V4? I like Saabs, but... meh. The only interest I'd have in a Sonnet is to pop the clutch rolling backwards to get the engine running backwards on an abandoned airstrip then run through all the gears with the engine running backwards. :D
But... even with a 2-stroke V4 you've missed a lot of individual components.
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Oh I want to be there when you finish building that car and then try and open your car door. I think you left 1000s of moving parts off your list.
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Firstly - 2 stroke, so no valves, lifters, push rods, timing belts, cams, rocker arms or anything else.
Also 2 stroke air cooled has no water pump, no oil pump. And as for starter and alternator the comment was around drive train so I left them out.
As for carbs, yes I have worked on them. Many many many of them. One of the nicer things about building old vehicles is the systems are much much simpler. Go and pull a part a set of mikuni carbs for an old Yamaha 2 stroke and there aren't that many moving par
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I actually own a 2 stroke car, a saab 92 which is a 3 cylinder 2 stroke. I actually works very well. That said I can acknowledge the problems with 2 strokes, however it has more to do with pollution and efficiency then it does their suitability to moving a large mass.
My point was that you can build an ICE and power train without having 1000s of moving parts. And I stand by that. Even if you went down the path of a relatively modern 4 stroke I would expect that you are counting the moving parts of the dr
Re:I would like a simpler electric car (Score:5, Informative)
How long does the battery pack in a Tesla last, though?
Teslas have not been available long enough to wear out many batteries. But some Priuses have more than 600k miles on their original battery pack, and 200k+ is common. Battery life actually does not depend much on "miles", and more with how you treat it. If you charge it to 100%, or run it down to near 0%, and then let it sit in the hot sun in that state, that is much harder on the battery than normal use. Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%. My wife has a Tesla Model-S, and she only boosts the battery up to 100% when she is going on a long trip, and even then only an hour or so before she leaves.
Re:I would like a simpler electric car (Score:4, Insightful)
Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%
And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.
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Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%
And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.
Yes, because you just hop in and drive an ICE car, You never ever have to do anything. Those gauges? They are just there for obsessive comp[ulsive people In fact that one with the thermometer? Oil changes? When that light comes on it means another 100K miles. Brake fluid? Whats that?
Because in 2016 'Murrica, plugging something in overnight is just too damn hard. Not sure if you are trolling, or +5 funny.
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Re:I would like a simpler electric car (Score:5, Informative)
I was responding to a comment that you can't just simply plug it in overnight...
Except that you can "just simply plug it in". My wife's car is preprogrammed to start charging at 2am (when electricity is cheapest), and preprogrammed to charge to 80% (200 of 240 mile range). She pulls into the garage, plugs it in, and she is done.
The only time you need to do anything special is when you are preparing for a long trip. Then you tap on the screen and slide the power to max. That gives you an extra 40 miles before you need to recharge.
Oh, and you never need to go to a gas station, there is no oil to change, no radiator fluid to check, and the brake pads don't wear out. The only maintenance is to rotate the tires every 10,000 miles. Overall, that is a lot less "pampering" than an ICE.
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Re:I would like a simpler electric car (Score:5, Informative)
Seems we have gone to great lengths to make sure odometer readings aren't tampered with, emissions parameters aren't modified and vehicles aren't "hot wired" - all problems which are unique to ICE and the reason your worried about failed electronics... you can't simply replace a cluster module anymore... or maybe even your light control module...
Well that and your "gas pedal" is controlled by electronics and just actually tells the DME your requested torque demand and it figures out how much it should advance the ignition timing, modify the injected fuel and how much air should be let in... and if you have a turbo the charge pressure... really the engine does nothing without the electronics now....
Even your automatic transmission now days is useless without it's module sanely telling it what to do...
In an electric car though, emissions isn't an issue and there is no complex computing of optimal air/fuel mixture/fuel pressure/temperature control/torque demand through multiple analog and digital inputs while constantly modifying the same outputs in some awkward feedback loop. There is not even a shitty fuel pump. Required electronics could be reduced to be torque demand + current speed -> motor control
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But while we're on the topic, I'm never worried the actual power train on my car will fail. What I am worried about is if the electronics fail.
While that is a more common occurrence, I have two things to say about it. One, engines do fail mechanically. It happens all the time, and often for really stupid reasons. My 1989 Nissan had a lifetime timing chain, but it would eat guides and if you didn't replace them it would eat its way through the valve cover, too. My 1997 Audi has two lifetime chains (between intake and exhaust cams) and a 75k timing belt... and it's an interference engine. The two most common causes of catastrophic failure of this ve
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Are you sure you don't have to change the brake fluid every year or so? Because that stuff is hydrophilic and you don't want to have water in your braking fluid. Or does Tesla use mineral oil as brake fluid like the old Citroens?
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Yes, Teslas have regenerative braking (as do hybrids), but they also have conventional brakes for when you need to stop the car quickly.
Sudden emergency stops are less than 1% of braking. So instead of lasting 40K miles, the pads last for 100*40K = 4 million miles. That is far more than most people drive in a lifetime, and far beyond the life of the car. So in practice, the brake pads never have to be replaced.
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Checking the fuel gauge when you're not in the car.. that IS a pain.
I understand completely. Its so sad that if it is mandatory that you do this tht it is a problem that there is no technical solution to it. Go figure.
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No, what he is saying is that checking the fuel gage when fueling to stop from over fueling the vehicle and having to be concerned with running a certain amount of fuel out before refueling instead of topping the tank of whenever it is convenient is the showstopper.
It would be for me too. I am not going to delay a trip or do extra driving because i have a 40% charge and will need 70% for my activities the next day. I'm also not going to own a car that will degrade if I ignore that and just give it a full
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OTOH, with tesla, you simply set a control that says to fill the battery up to 80%, and then plug-in nightly. My wife now swears at me if she is driving the highlander and has to deal with the gas stations. I can not blame her. THe amount of work and pampering that an ICE vehicle needs is ludicrous. Sadly, loads of idiots will run around screaming that it is no
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And if you are driving more than 250-300 miles / day, then Tesla IS NOT FOR YOU. Not yet, anyways. Basically, you want to drive le
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but if I'm paying that much for a vehicle I want to be able to drive more if I want to.
You CAN drive more if you want. Charge to 100% if you want. Run it down to 1%. Just don't charge to 100% and leave the car sitting like that for a month, especially in a hot environment. That will stress the battery. But if you charge to 100% an hour before your trip (and you can preprogram that to happen, so you don't need to get up early) that is fine. Likewise, if you run it down to 1%, and then plug it in as soon as you reach your destination, that also will put very little stress on the battery.
T
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Re: I would like a simpler electric car (Score:2)
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Yeah.... I just did a search for EV charging stations in my city... the search result lists ONE charging station with a capacity of 1 Car ("1 Port SAE J1772 plug").
Oh yeah, and the location is a Nissan dealership....... I bet the folks there would just LOVE it if I drove over there in a Tesla and tried to ask someone in the dealership where I can charge my Tesla......
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1) We should be adamantly fighting any shift to proprietary lock-in a la Apple. That's just stupid because eventually you need the number of gas stations there are now times the number of vehicle automakers in order to come close to the same convenience.
2) So driving straight through and eating on the road is a thing of the past I guess? Sad.
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Re: I would like a simpler electric car (Score:2)
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You don't have to pamper it any more than you have to pamper a normal car --- the maintenance and care it requires is just different: for example, you don't need an oil change every 2 months like you need for a Gasoline-fueled vehicle. It's the same deal with your iPhone, by the way.
The standard charge setting has the default limit of 85%, which is fine, and you could lower it to 80% if you wanted.
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And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.
I hope you don't have an ICE car. The shit that needs to be done to that to keep it going is incredible. Belt changes, oil changes, filter changes. Too many things can go wrong with a large mechanical engine.
Personally I don't do any of that. I just buy a new car and then after 2 years when the engine seizes I throw it away and buy another. Maybe I should look into this Telsa thing, it may last longer if I don't look after it.
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Hahahah you think the drive train has solder joints?
Speaking of, how's the ECU going in your car? Or do you think that ICE cars don't have solder joints? Actually there's no reason that an electric car needs to have any additional joints compared to an ICE car. But all of this is beside the point:
You don't replace your belts? Well maybe you'll be replacing the entire engine then. But you pointed out to a single part. An ICE car has a ludicrous amount of moving parts which require maintenance, significantly
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You must be a millennial.
You had to get down on your knees and pray to cars made in the 70s to even get them to consider starting.
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OTOH, Tesla appears to be long lasting. A dozen of the early MSs have hit 200K miles and they are in the 85-90% capacity. At this rate, th
Re:Translation (Score:5, Informative)
I must have low standards though - my first car was a lime green Pinto and I thought it was a great car...
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Pinto is a defective design with exploding gas tanks. Cup holders don't matter when you have no arms left.
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Thankfully, Ford today would never do that for a variety of reasons.
I still think my Pinto was great BTW. All cars are risky - just some more than others...
Model S shortcomings (Score:3)
My S has a constant center screen crashing problem. Absolutely horrible. One day I had my cell phone plugged in to charge when the screen was crashed and kept needing to be rebooted, and I noticed that the charging shut off and on every five seconds. That led to my discovering that the screen crashing problem was due to having a flash stick plugged in for listening to MP3s. Apparently having more than 8GB of music is more than the system can handle. When I reported this to the service center, they said
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No, it's not fixed, but your post suggests two possibilities: First, our flash stick might have less data but more separate files; I would assume that it's the number of files or directories that cause the problem. Second, our flash stick is VFAT, not EXT2; I should convert it and see if that solves the problem.
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Sloppy on their part. I have worked on modern car radios. Where are their test CDS and thumb drives with 10,000 1-second mp3s? 10,000 folder? Etc.
There are companies that make test stuff, too, with media and files broken in pathological manners.
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I'll put 16GB of music on my 32GB (NTFS) stick and report back here later this weekend if I can.
Did you have any other kind of files on the stick? I don't think sticks draw much power, but could it be a power draw issue?
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No, no other files. It's actually a micro SD card reader, but the system shouldn't notice the difference. I don't buy real flash sticks anymore so that all my flash is in the same format.
It's not 100%, but it's pretty frequent. It may ask for a reboot 20% of the time we drive it, but then it will often take a half dozen reboots before it's happy. We've seen it report a touch screen problem immediately upon inserting the stick. If the system comes up correctly, then there's never a problem until the nex
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It does. (Currently it's Slacker in the USA, but I hear they're switching.)
However, sometimes we want to listen to our own music.
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What happened before having to prove your products are safe before putting them on the damn market? People have a certain right to safety.
Tell me again how this applies to devices such as cable modems or home-grade firewalls?
Point is safety has succumbed to the demands of capitalism, which greed is always on a tight schedule of yesterday.
And this will only get worse as companies grow larger and larger and can absorb the random lawsuit or seventeen related to matters that would cost potential billions in recalls and re-design work.
Re:Subject of Comment (Score:4, Interesting)
Never happened.
Blatantly false. When was the last time you bought even a toaster that wasn't made to a certain safety standard? They have to be grounded, they have to have a certain amount of protection around the elements. Houses have to be built to code, drugs are tested before going on the market.
My idea of freedom is different than yours. To me, freedom is being able to buy anything offered on the market without having to be concerned it will kill me.
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Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le (Score:5, Funny)
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Watch this [twitter.com] space.
Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le (Score:4, Funny)
I guess he will lose his case though. He hasn't got a leg to stand on.
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