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Power Transportation EU News Hardware Science Technology

Tesla Preps Bigger 100 KWh Battery For Model S and Model X (theverge.com) 113

Posted by BeauHD from the bigger-is-better dept.
An anonymous reader writes: Tesla will soon offer a 100 kWh battery for the Model S and Model X that will allow for increased range -- perhaps as much as 380 miles for the Model S. Currently, the 90 kWh batteries are the company's largest capacity. Kenteken.TV is reporting that the Dutch regulator that certifies Tesla's vehicles for use in the European Union, RDW, has recently published a number of new Tesla variants. RDW's public database now includes entries for a Tesla "100D" and "100X," which are titles that follow Tesla's current naming system based on battery capacity. The listing for the 100D claims the vehicle has a range of 381 miles or 613 kilometers. The motor output is reported as 90 kilowatts (121 horsepower), which is the maximum output the Tesla motors can sustain without overheating. Autoblog notes that EU range estimates tend to be more optimistic than those issued by the U.S. EPA. A more realistic range might be 310 to 320 miles.
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Tesla Preps Bigger 100 KWh Battery For Model S and Model X More

Tesla Preps Bigger 100 KWh Battery For Model S and Model X

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  • Mileage - pinch of salt (Score:5, Interesting)

    by danhuby ( 759002 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @03:58PM (#52707057) Homepage

    Those mileage figures need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Based on my own experience with my 70D (my real world range estimate = 200 miles) I estimate a 100D would have a range of around 285 miles. Which is still excellent.

    I think 381 miles will only be possible driving 30mph on a flat road with no wind.

    • Re: Mileage - pinch of salt (Score:5, Informative)

      by ArmoredDragon ( 3450605 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:01PM (#52707067)

      Well the 381 mile estimate is based on European figures; the US EPA figures are tighter and would estimate closer to what you said.

    • Re:Mileage - pinch of salt (Score:4, Informative)

      by imgod2u ( 812837 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:23PM (#52707215) Homepage

      With about 10% of the battery reserved, you have roughly 90kWH to play with. To get 380 miles of range, you'd need to use ~237 WH/mile. I've done that, but it's a pain. Basically constant speed without slowing down or speeding up at ~40 mph on a flat road.

      Still, lifetime averages seem to be around 315 WH/mile so 90kWH should result in about 285 miles before the car shuts down (without bricking).

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by larien ( 5608 )
      Tesla have a range calculator [tesla.com] to show expected range based on speed, temperature, whether air con is on etc. Various factors will reduce your range from the optimum so you'll almost never get the full range quoted.

    • Those mileage figures need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Based on my own experience with my 70D (my real world range estimate = 200 miles) I estimate a 100D would have a range of around 285 miles. Which is still excellent.

      I think 381 miles will only be possible driving 30mph on a flat road with no wind.

      Do they publish the basis for the range numbers? I'd be most curious to know how using air conditioning on a hot day impacts range, or driving on hills, etc. 300ish miles is pretty darn good either way.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Ost99 ( 101831 )
      With 90% of the battery available for use, and a typical usage of 180wh/km, you get close to 315 miles (500km).

      Real world numbers for the 100D should be between 450 and 500 km (280 - 315 miles).

  • ... the vehicle has a range of 381 miles or 613 kilometers.

    'Cause the kilometer range sounds way better... Is there a switch or something?

  • Not Really Required.... (Score:3)

    by foxalopex ( 522681 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:16PM (#52707157)

    Batteries are generally extremely heavy in their weight to energy ratio compared to gasoline. They also cost a fair bit of money and take a while to charge if you manage to drain that huge of a battery. Even your regular 240v home outlet could take a while. At some point aside from bragging rights it becomes impractical to have a battery that big. The Volt only has about a 40 mile battery and I've made it through the entire summer without having to resort to gas on my daily trips. I've even forgotten to plug the thing in at times and it still had enough. Granted I live in a small city so that helps but I can't see what having past 200 miles gains for you. It might be a bit easier for cross-country trips if you're hopping supercharger stations but I have a bad feeling that you're paying a huge amount in extra weight and costs for that minuscule usage situation. (Unless driving hundreds of miles a day is normal for you.)

    • Re:Not Really Required.... (Score:5, Informative)

      by imgod2u ( 812837 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:26PM (#52707233) Homepage

      For me, I don't have a charger at home (live in a condo with garage parking). I charge at work. So having the extra range means I don't need to fight for chargers as often. Right now, with a 85kWH battery, I find myself charging about twice a week (including the weekend trips) at work. If I can knock that down to once a week, it'd make a big difference to me.

      In dense urban places, that kind of mentality is probably pretty common.

      The other benefit of a bigger battery is that superchargers will give you more range before going into the trickle-charge range. That should make refueling on a road trip faster.

      • For me, I don't have a charger at home (live in a condo with garage parking). I charge at work. So having the extra range means I don't need to fight for chargers as often. Right now, with a 85kWH battery, I find myself charging about twice a week (including the weekend trips) at work. If I can knock that down to once a week, it'd make a big difference to me.

        Could you knock it down, though? How much amperage can your employer's chargers deliver? Most of them are limited to 30A, which means it's going to take better than 12 hours to get 80 kWh on board. If they support the J1772-2009 80A mode then your car can take 72A (17.2 kW) and you can get a full charge in 4-5 hours. Otherwise, you may have to plug in twice per week just because you can't get enough during a single session.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by heybiff ( 519445 )
          My GOD! I wish I could suck off the jobs gasoline teet for free. Even if it did take 12hrs to fill the tank.
          • It comes to less than $15 of electricity per week. As far as employer perks go, it's relatively cheap.

    • On my Model S, I get about 29 miles for every hour of charge. At 10 hours a night, that's 290 miles.

      So, true, for home charging you're getting close to the upper limit ... and it's quite rare that I travel > 200 miles in a day.

      But it's so comforting to know that I have a lot of extra wiggle room on those road trips with the family, when we don't know exactly which place we're going.

      BTW, on the supercharger it's pretty common to get >190 miles for at least the first hour of charge. It slows down dram

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by amiga3D ( 567632 )

      I couldn't survive with a 40 mile range. I really would like at least 200 miles so that I never have to sweat it. For cross country driving I think it's still gas only for me. I'll think about an electric vehicle when I can drive 300 miles on a charge and recharge it in an hour or less.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by heybiff ( 519445 )
        I live in the 4th largest city in the US, and work on the opposite side of the city from my home with NO highway route between. I drive 23M round trip during rush hour traffic with a mix of stoplights, stop signs and one way streets. I's happily take a 40M all electric range with charging overnight. I HATE gas stations, and hate the variability of the price that seems to have next to no connection to supply/demand. I just wish I could afford it -- but that's what I get for going into education.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by amiga3D ( 567632 )

          I think you're right, if I lived in a city an electric car would be great. In a few years they'll probably be at the level where it would make sense for me too. Maybe in 5 or so years. Battery technology continues to improve.

      • "For cross country driving I think it's still gas only for me"

        Then hire a gasser when you need it.

        Or fly cross country and hire a car when you land.

    • Re:Not Really Required.... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by G00F ( 241765 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @05:49PM (#52707723) Homepage

      Unfortunately not everyone is as luck as you with their commute, and some people do things on the weekend. 40 mile range is laughable. If it didn't also have gas engine it would sell as well as electric bikes...

      What would be cool, is a quick way to add batteries. 150 mile standard, and add/remove battery where you can add multiple 25lb batteries under the back seat to get up to 300.

      300, which isn't high(comparing to gas) is respectable and 20 min charge times are not much longer than normal fueling.

    • "Even your regular 240v home outlet could take a while."

      Like.... overnight?

      If you need it to charge faster, get yourself a 3-phase power hookup. They're not terribly expensive.

  • I know they have to start somewhere, but electric cars still suck ass when it comes to range and convenience.

    I can get in my 8000lb truck and drive 600+ miles before needing to refuel... and I can stop at nearly any fuel station to fill her up with 30+ gallons in 2-3 minutes(diesel pumps tend to be MUCH faster than gas pumps).

    Then there is the problem of towing and hauling, with the technology available in the near future I can't see any way for an electric vehicle to be even remotely as capable as one tha

    • Re:What a joke... (Score:4, Informative)

      by gmack ( 197796 ) <gmackNO@SPAMinnerfire.net> on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:30PM (#52707261) Homepage Journal
      I think people who actually need to tow things are the niche market since most people don't. Most people here go from home to work, home to drop the kids at school, home to the store etc and for that the range of the Tesla is good enough. On top of that, instead of 2-5 minutes filling up, you can fill up overnight or use one of the higher power chargers at the shopping mall (Several malls here in Montreal have them) and have a full charge when you are done shopping or eating. If you think about it, it's actually a more efficient use of your time since you no longer have to supervise the car while it charges. It's just a matter of not thinking of "refueling the car" as a separate task the way we do now. If we can get the low hanging fruit of small car needs, we will vastly reduce how much crap we put unto the air and reduce the money we are sending to crazy Monarchies in the middle east who then use a bunch of that money in ways that cause us trouble.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Kjella ( 173770 )

        I think people who actually need to tow things are the niche market since most people don't. Most people here go from home to work, home to drop the kids at school, home to the store etc and for that the range of the Tesla is good enough.

        For that a Nissan Leaf will do, really. But how often do you do those not so everyday things? If it's one trip a year maybe, if it's ten trips a year I have to take out a lease, go collect the car, inspect it for any damage so they don't blame me, transfer all my belongings, deal with an all new car and once I'm done drop it off and get home I'm not going to do it. Actually a Tesla would be pretty sweet, but it's also a premium car. I can get a compact that serves my needs for half the price if all I need i

    • Re:What a joke... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by imgod2u ( 812837 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @04:32PM (#52707285) Homepage

      "niche market" is kind of an overstatement. In fact, your usage scenario -- according to statistics -- is the "niche market". Very very few people actually need the ability to get into an 8000lb truck and drive 600+ miles before needing to refuel.

      Most people need to drive 5-40 miles twice a day with a ~8 hour gap in between. Hardly a "niche market".

      As for hauling and towing...it depends on your fleet size. Electric motors are actually far more ideal for the job of towing due to the flat torque curve. But if you're a one-truck-shop and can't swap trucks out to recharge (like larger businesses can) then ya, electric would be very impractical.

      I could totally see shipping trucks being an ideal situation for electric. Regular schedules, a lot of dead-time and regular routes where chargers could be installed.

      Realistically, gas cars *are* the niche market. The cost is what's keeping electric sales down. But battery cost/kWH is actually dropping quite a bit in recent years due to all the advances made for smartphones.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Octorian ( 14086 )

        "niche market" is kind of an overstatement. In fact, your usage scenario -- according to statistics -- is the "niche market". Very very few people actually need the ability to get into an 8000lb truck and drive 600+ miles before needing to refuel.

        But a very high percentage of people who bash Tesla in online forums seem to have this as a critically important use case :-P

        • Re: What a joke... (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          If a job's worth doing, it's worth over-doing. I wouldn't be happy unless I had several thousand horsepower available, and a good few tens of tons so I can take a few knocks.

          A tank. What I need is a tank. Armor plated for those dangerous 5 mile drives to the bus depot or Safeway. Enough power to tow my wife's Honda along with all the other cars in the neighborhood...simultaneously. Cuz you know that happens EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN DAY. I need a good size gas can on board for when I need the range. 200 gal cans

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by heybiff ( 519445 )
        Clearly that thought has occurred to someone with the wherewithal to do something about it: https://electrek.co/2016/06/13... [electrek.co]

      • "I could totally see shipping trucks being an ideal situation for electric"

        Any kind of drayage work would be an ideal EV truck solution - and being a truck chassis you can hang a _lot_ more battery on the thing.

        For long-haul transport regular IC (no hybrid) is still likely to be the most cost-effective solution.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Jeremi ( 14640 )

      I can get in my 8000lb truck and drive 600+ miles before needing to refuel... and I can stop at nearly any fuel station to fill her up with 30+ gallons in 2-3 minutes(diesel pumps tend to be MUCH faster than gas pumps).

      All very true, and a definite advantage for fuel-powered cars over battery-powered cars, in scenarios involving long-distance travel.

      However, most people do not drive 600 miles at a stretch, so for them, there is not much advantage in being theoretically able to do so.

      Just like with cell phones, as long as the car's battery can reliably last you until you're ready to plug in for the night and go to sleep, that's good enough. It will be fully charged again in the morning; any capacity above that is gravy.

    • The Tesla isn't a practical only car. With that in mind, all of the complaints against it melt away. If you have the wealth to buy a Tesla, you have the wealth to get a second (or third) car for the situations where the Tesla doesn't fit.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by zwede ( 1478355 )
        It's a perfectly practical only car. I've never needed another car the 2.5 years I've had my Tesla. I'm trying to remember the last time I drove over 500 miles. I think it was in 2004. If I need to go far I fly.

    • It's a balance of costs to benefits.

      Until quite recently you were paying about $16,000 more for fuel over the life of your truck for that capability. Now it's about $8,000. (It may be much worse for your truck than I'm stating tho as those figured are based on 28mpg car vs the cost of electricity at 10 cents per kwh. Electric contracts go down as low as 8cpkwh and truck mileage can easily drop below 28mpg).

      Your truck is actually more of a niche vehicle than electric cars. Electric cars match the most co

  • Most of the other models are 380hp or above. Even if the article writer forgot to include the other motor that still leaves quite a shortfall.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      From TFA (this is Slashdot, you're excused for not reading it):

      [NOTE: An earlier version of this article suggested that the quotation of 90 kw (121 hp) for the Tesla's motor output was a typo or an error. We thank our reader Vigge50 for pointing out that EU requirements appear to require quoting maximum sustainable power over a long period, rather the peak outputs quoted by Tesla in North America. We've corrected the error.]

    • it's measured weirdly with an electric car -- I'll let someone with much more knowledge of it than me explain.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AaronW ( 33736 )

        That seems surprising to me, since I have taken my Tesla P85 up numerous long steep grades in the Sierra Nevada mountains, usually driving well over the speed limit. The only thing I notice about going up grades like that is the battery drains rather faster than normal. 120HP (90KW) for steady driving is a lot. For freeway cruising in my model S I average around 35KW.

  • If they can double that and make it recharge fully in about 5 minutes it'll be as good as a diesel.

    • As good as a diesel in trying to cheat to actually pass emissions? Or is that in cost per mile?

      • As good as a diesel in trying to cheat to actually pass emissions? Or is that in cost per mile?

        Why not both? Electricity produced by burning coal/natural gas/gas has the same environmental impact as directly burning gas in cars. And in the future the EV owner need to pay extra road construction/maintenance fee because they don't pay through pump.

      • Range in a day. I generally walk to the office, groceries and so on are delivered. When I drive, I drive about 800 miles in an 11 hour day. I'm unaware of any electric that can pull that off. Plug-in hybrids are a great fit though.

  • Cost? (Score:3)

    by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Monday August 15, 2016 @06:44PM (#52707959)
    Obviously bigger batteries are going to give you more range and possible better acceleration (at the risk of melting the motor). But at some point, aren't you limited by the physical space available to store the battery? Or have they figured out how to pack more kilowatt-hours into the same physical space? I would be inclined to spend more upfront for better range, but I can't afford the Telsa I want anyway.

  • ANd who the fuck cares? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    And Ford increased the gas tank size on Fusion from 14 to 16 US gallons....

  • I am just waiting for Tesla to start using a well known song by Five Finger Deathpunch as their marketing-jingle

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