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Hey Google, Want To Fix Android Updates? Hit OEMs Where It Hurts (arstechnica.com) 190

Yesterday we talked about some of Nexus devices, including 2013's Nexus 5 not receiving an update, because it has been more than two years since the launch of the phone. But as you may know, this commitment to keeping the devices up to date is even worse when you look at what other Android OEMs are doing. ArsTechnica's Ron Amadeo has a solution: Google keeps missing the point when it comes to addressing Android's update situation. It keeps coming up with strategies to make updating "easier" for OEMs, but I don't think the problem is "ease of updating" -- it's creating any incentive for OEMs to update at all. Google seems to think that its partners will update phones because it's The Right Thing To Do by their customers and that handing out gold stars will send them scrambling to produce updates for their devices. I don't think that's ever going to happen. Google actually already tried the "shame" tactic and it didn't work. When Google-owned Motorola, Moto's update speed went through the roof. Motorola was achieving near-Nexus-like update speeds on many of its phones and was definitely putting other manufacturers to shame. But the increased update competition never really spurred other OEMs to start competing on update speeds. The bottom line is that Android partners only care about, well, the bottom line -- money. These companies already have your money, so updating a device that's already been sold is a needless expense. There's also a good argument to be made that updating a device hurts future sales. If your phone isn't updated, it will start to feel old, so you're more likely to buy a new phone sooner.
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Hey Google, Want To Fix Android Updates? Hit OEMs Where It Hurts

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  • by Godwin O'Hitler ( 205945 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @11:45AM (#52756439) Journal

    From my experience, every update removes useful power user features.

    • From my experience, every update removes useful power user features.

      For example?

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Yes, and each update brings yet another google-something application into phone. On my Nexus there are more than 30 useless google applications which try to get updates every month. Too bad they google does not want to fix the bad sound quality or random battery consumption peak but only add more and more useless crapware.

    • That's why I finally bit the bullet and went Nexus with latest phone. Unlocking bootloader done within twenty minutes of getting it. No need for hacks to enable tethering. Root without having to use an exploit.
      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        That's why I finally bit the bullet and went Nexus with latest phone. Unlocking bootloader done within twenty minutes of getting it. No need for hacks to enable tethering. Root without having to use an exploit.

        Like most Android phones as long as you don't buy them from your carrier.

        • Yeah, I've gotten over buying phone through the carrier. I just purchased a new phone through Amazon and never doing the subsidy thing again.
  • The summary says "If your phone isn't updated, it will start to feel old, so you're more likely to buy a new phone sooner". If you don't make your users happy by keeping them updated, Android isn't tied to one vendor, they can just as easily be driven to another handset vendor the next time. Better to have all your customers update 50% less often than to lose half of them to the company that cares about its customers.

    • by PRMan ( 959735 )
      Yep. If you don't update my phone, I won't buy from you again. I'll find someone else.
      • samsung on verizon gets updates every few months
        • samsung on verizon gets updates every few months

          And that's one more reason why Samsung is killing everyone else, other than Apple. LG, HTC and others should be learning from that, but they aren't.

          • by gfxguy ( 98788 )
            I have an LG V10, it's been upgraded to 6.0, and has fairly recent security patches. Don't know if that's from T-Mobile or LG, though. Of course, I've had it less than a year - I hope it continues to get love for a few more.
  • by known_coward_69 ( 4151743 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @11:49AM (#52756471)
    apple and samsung take home virtually all the profits in smartphone sales. most android phone makers take a loss on their sales or break even. android is designed for google to profit before anyone else. why would they spend money post-sale to improve the product when they aren't making any money from it?
    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      So instead of spending money creating a proprietary custom Android build, why don't they build a phone that's supported by AOSP out of the box that way their development effort is significantly less and the phone gets updates - thus saving money, not spending it.

      • because it doesn't work that way. AOSP you cannot make a retail product since you need drivers and lots of other software you have to license and sign contracts and pay support for. google charges money for their apps as well and there is a fee for OHA certification. it's almost like Windows back in the day. you could never install windows out of the box and have a working computer. you needed the right drivers, etc. except AOSP has less in it than a standard Windows CD or DVD ever had. and even with windo
      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        Because otherwise a Samsung phone would be like any other Android smartphone.
        They don't want that, for two reasons. First, they don't want to compete with similar looking but much cheaper alternatives. Second, they don't want give too much power to Google.
        They want people to buy "a Samsung", not an Android phone.
        In fact, Samsung seems to be ready to leave Android at any time, probably as a way to keep Google in check. They have their own OS, their own app store, replacement apps for most of Google offerings

  • Charge for the non-security feature updates -- maybe even do it through the app store. Customers have to pay for updates one way or the other, so you should be able to sell a competitively priced phone and then make just as much money selling fewer physical phones and more software updates as you would under the status quo. That'd be good for the environment too.

    The one sticking point is, as always, the carriers. They'd much rather you trade in your perfectly good phone for another one whose price is rol

  • by cellocgw ( 617879 ) <cellocgw&gmail,com> on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @11:55AM (#52756529) Journal

    If Google had designed (? or something?) Android so that updating the base OS was something that could be pushed direct from Google instead of from each manufacturer's bollixed version of the system, there'd be no problem for any of us. Seeing as how Google{sheets, +, play, docs,} and other default apps get updated just fine, why not the OS as well -- without any interaction with the phone vendors?

    • by ausekilis ( 1513635 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @12:09PM (#52756637)
      Due to custom compilation of hardware. The OS requires firmware for all of the interfaces and chips. While you may be able to get away with a "One size fits all" solution like Ubuntu on an AMD/Intel chip, there's a huge variety of ARM version chips out there, each with different clock speeds and (presumably) instruction sets. Not to mention all the different WiFi, Bluetooth, and GSM/Edge antennae.

      The only way I can see this working is if Android becomes a microkernel, and Google sticks its tentacles into everything around it. That way the OEM is only responsible for a microkernel.

      Any embedded developers out there with more info?
      • by Drew M. ( 5831 )

        Due to custom compilation of hardware. The OS requires firmware for all of the interfaces and chips. While you may be able to get away with a "One size fits all" solution like Ubuntu on an AMD/Intel chip, there's a huge variety of ARM version chips out there, each with different clock speeds and (presumably) instruction sets. Not to mention all the different WiFi, Bluetooth, and GSM/Edge antennae.

        The exact same can be said of Intel/AMD. Nearly single piece of hardware has a firmware and software driver component. The only difference between embedded and non-embedded is the size of flash available on the device to store the OS image, but in a few minutes it's easy to strip out unnecessary drivers from an OS image for deployment on a phone. Doing cross compilation for different ARM chips and placing a specific kernel in each OS image is also dirt easy.

        As a matter of fact, Cyanogenmod does this exact t

        • IMHO this is the exact market CM should have targeted. OEMs that no longer want to support their old crap. CM could have partnered with Samsung, Motorola, LG ... etc to support older phones. They already do it, but rather than "community build", these would be "supported" versions of the same.

          It would be a win/win for just about everyone.

      • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

        Google is sort of doing that now. Incase you have not read more and more new features are being rolled into Google Play services and the Google Now Launcher. Google controls the version of those two systems with the Google Play Store. It is not prefect but it is better than it was.

        Yes you have a lot of different ARM chips but the instruction sets are not very different. Most Android devices use a Cortex A series SOC the wifi and cell radios are also limited in number. The big differences are going to be th

      • by Dahamma ( 304068 )

        That way the OEM is only responsible for a microkernel.

        Any embedded developers out there with more info?

        Yeah... that's not how microkernels work. In a microkernel the device drivers run outside of the kernel - the kernel just implements the minimal core hardware access/virtualization and OS features. The microkernel for an ARM-based platform would probably be highly portable to many different SoCs, but the drivers outside of the microkernel would be specific to the various peripheral features of the SoC & other hardware on each device.

      • by 4im ( 181450 )

        Due to custom compilation of hardware. The OS requires firmware for all of the interfaces and chips. While you may be able to get away with a "One size fits all" solution like Ubuntu on an AMD/Intel chip, there's a huge variety of ARM version chips out there, each with different clock speeds and (presumably) instruction sets. Not to mention all the different WiFi, Bluetooth, and GSM/Edge antennae.

        On x86 platforms, we have standards for dealing with things like booting, drivers etc. That's what's needed for

    • If Google designed Android so that they could push out forced updates to the OS, carriers and manufacturers who wanted it Their Own Way would simply take the FOSS version of Android and compile it Their Own Way, like Amazon does. That's the trade-off here. You can make it closed source giving you complete control over the OS and updates (what Apple and Microsoft do) and force carriers and manufacturers to bend to your will. Or you can make it FOSS, but attempts to wield control over updates risks carrier
      • If Google designed Android so that they could push out forced updates to the OS,

        Then they would be no different than Microsoft and Windows 10 forced updates. It would require the same kind of "phone home to momma" (pun intended) "service" running in the background consuming memory and CPU cycles and data all the time. Their current spyware (Location Manager, e.g.) is bad enough.

        You might say that using Google's Android is a choice so that makes it different than Windows 10 -- but is it really?

        Google only requires you to install their apps if you want access to the Play store.

        As I recall, Google requires you to run a verified Google version of Android to access the Pl

    • If Google had designed (? or something?) Android so that updating the base OS was something that could be pushed direct from Google instead of from each manufacturer's bollixed version of the system, there'd be no problem for any of us.

      That may seem obvious now, but it's far from clear that Android would have succeeded the way it has if OEMs hadn't been allowed to differentiate their versions. That was (and is) something that's important to them, and they may well have decided that they wanted to do their own thing instead if Google hadn't given them the degree of control they wanted. Or maybe they'd have adopted Windows, since while it wouldn't allow them to customize it would have had the advantage of being from the then-biggest OS make

    • there'd be no problem for any of us.

      There would be one problem for us. We wouldn't be getting Android updates at all as no one would have adopted a system that was designed to be incredibly customisable by a manufacturer to the point that manufacturers repeatedly shipped products that had hardware features which were neither supported by Android nor exposed by its standard APIs, and continue to do so.

      Android presents freedom to manufacturers. That's why it exists, and that's why for every iPhone you see at Tele2 you see 20 Android phones.

      Thou

  • It's worse. They see you as an 'upsell' opportunity. My previous none Nexus phone got quite a number of updates. Nearly all contained more crap to sell their own 'services'.

  • The actual proposal (Score:5, Informative)

    by ItsJustAPseudonym ( 1259172 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @11:59AM (#52756553)
    The summary on /. does not actually describe the proposed solution. Here it is, from TFA:

    "[P]enalize partners by reducing or eliminating that [ad] revenue sharing if they don't push out updates. If an OEM exceeds the curve and stays up to date, increase the amount of revenue sharing."

    I really can't imagine the vendors going for this. I doubt the amount of money involved would be sufficient.
    • TLA conflates Carrier with OEM. I worked for an OEM and never saw any revenue sharing from Google or the Carrier. Nothing. Zippo. We bid on RFQ's sent out by the carriers every 6 months with the best and lowest bid for slots the carrier had (high end, mid-priced, low, specialized, etc.), competing against every other OEM from Chinese wannabes to Tier 1's. Carrier was always hoping for iPhone quality at a $250 price point and once we sold it, we were onto the next product. In the end, we couldn't compete wit

      • by Dahamma ( 304068 )

        The article is right that money talks, but to think they'd give any to an OEM. Ha.

        Yep, that basically summarizes the whole problem. Money is the solution, Google doesn't want to share, and so OEMs have no incentive to keep their devices up to date.

        And why should they? It's the same problem with all "smart" devices - phones, TVs, set top boxes, etc. Any development effort spent on updating last year's devices is expense with no reward. If Google wants to keep Android devices on the latest version the hardware supports they need to create an incentive for OEMs to spend money to do so.

        T

  • by cjav ( 1331511 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @12:00PM (#52756563)
    The summary left out the "hurt" part. Maybe as a veiled attempt to encourage people to read the article? Here you go, no need, this is Slashdot.

    "We've heard reports that Google shares ad revenue with its partners—if a customer buys a Verizon Samsung phone, performs a Google search, and clicks on an ad, Verizon and Samsung get a portion of that ad revenue. So, penalize partners by reducing or eliminating that revenue sharing if they don't push out updates. If an OEM exceeds the curve and stays up to date, increase the amount of revenue sharing. Threatening to shift the stock price of an OEM by affecting its bottom line is the nuclear option—and, folks, we're at the point where the nuclear option is all that's left."
  • I really don't want Google to have a stranglehold over Android in the same way Microsoft and Apple have a hold over their platforms, its openness is its biggest advantage. Also, I really don't care if my phone gets the latest bling, so long as it's getting security patches.

    So IMO the optimal solution is all or some of the following:
    1) Legally compel vendors to make known the minimum date of their phone/tablet's last security patch before the customer buys the product. That way, you'll be able to see tha
    • Also make it a legal requirement that any phone sold on a long term contract receives security patches for the duration of the contract. Many phones are sold on 2 year contracts these days, but the updates stop long before the contract expires.

      • These days? 2 year contracts are on the way out and most carriers won't even offer them anymore (you have to ask).

      • by gosand ( 234100 )

        Carriers would find a way around this. e.g. "you have to own the phone before you are eligible for security updates" T-Mobile does the "pay $20 a month" for a new phone, so you wouldn't really own it until your contract was up. That's why I think that "other" brands will start making real inroads into the market - BLU, Huwei, Xiaomi, etc. I have a BLU, and love it. Dual sim, unlocked, octacore, 2GB ram, gorilla glass, for $150. Why would I buy some $600 phone? As long as the manufacturers control the

      • A solution involving government regulation would require keys for any OEM/Carrier choosing to lock the bootloader of any phone. After six months without updates, the keys go public.
    • by Dahamma ( 304068 )

      That's great in theory, but in practice it's horribly restrictive to app developers that want some basic level of consistency among devices. It has nothing to do with "bling" and everything to do with support for all of the apps you use.

      More than 10% of our Android app users are still on API 17 or earlier (*4* year old OS). We want to drop support for those devices but 10% is non trivial.

      On the other hand, we stopped supporting iOS 6 (also released 4 years ago) so long ago I can't remember, and have requi

  • by Optic7 ( 688717 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @12:02PM (#52756589)

    I still think that two years of updates is outrageous forced obsolescence that is prematurely adding electronic garbage to landfills. They should be forced to provide updates for 5 years. I'm seriously considering going back to an iPhone on my next phone upgrade, despite all the concerns I have about them too. They at least support their hardware for around 5 years.

    • I've had my iPhone 6 Plus for a little less than two years now - I'm hoping to get another two or three years out of it. We'll be replacing my wife and my daughter's iPhone 5's this fall, which'll be roughly four years from when we got them.

      Four or five years does seem "right" when it comes to the useful lifetime of a phone (any phone - not just iPhones). We're at the point where even older hardware can do pretty much everything you need at an adequate level.

      Of course, in the days before smartphones, I thin

      • I have a 4S that I purchased outright in Oct 2011. Still on the latest IOS. 5 years old in 2 months.

    • by cdrudge ( 68377 )

      It's not 2 years for Nexus devices. It's 2 years for major OS updates (going from Kit Kat to Lollipop to Marshmallow to Nougat...) It's 3 years for minor updates within a given OS version. After 3 years of updates, the base OS doesn't receive updates but it's already likely pretty stable with bugs worked out. Individual Google apps continue to receive updates beyond that.

    • I still think that two years of updates is outrageous forced obsolescence that is prematurely adding electronic garbage to landfills.

      FWIW, it's actually two years of upgrades and three years of security updates on Nexus devices.

      I'm seriously considering going back to an iPhone on my next phone upgrade, despite all the concerns I have about them too. They at least support their hardware for around 5 years.

      At least they have done so in the past. Note that they've never made any commitment to that, so they could stop.

  • ...why I'm only going to buy Nexus devices. Almost every other phone I've bought was basically abandoned. If a couple of guys can do alternative roms and update the phone, the manufacturer should be able to do the same.

    Apple updates older devices better than most android OEM's and they seem to have little trouble getting people to upgrade.

  • As the phone company, I fail to see how allowing you to push an update that you've not re-certified to not break our network, over our network is going to lock consumers into a new two year contract every 18 months.

    We also fail to see how not incentivizing the purchase of a new contact subsidized phone gets the customer locked into a new two year contract every 18 months.

    • by Zuato ( 1024033 )

      But yet Apple does it all the time. So does Google if you bought a Nexus directly from them. Why can't the rest?

      • But yet Apple does it all the time. So does Google if you bought a Nexus directly from them. Why can't the rest?

        Apple does it because you are still incentivized to buy a new iPhone every 18 months, and probably lust after it in a shorter period than that.

        Google can update the nexus because it's usually a "bring your own device, off contract" thing. I.e. you bought it without a plan by paying for it up front, and in exchange you get updates and the ability to do exactly the thing carriers don't want you to be able to do: switch carriers. So they charge more on the plan, and you pay maybe 30% of the extra amount (say

  • by Spy Handler ( 822350 ) on Tuesday August 23, 2016 @12:18PM (#52756699) Homepage Journal

    I'm an Apple user and currently do not own any Android devices, but the constant force-feeding of updates by Apple might make me jump ship to Android.

    I had an iPad 2 that I bought in 2011. It was a great device, very snappy and a pleasure to use. It came with iOS 4. When it upgraded itself to iOS 5, it slowed down a little but was still usable. At this point an alarm went off in my head and I have refused all the pop-ups telling me to update to IOS 6 ever since.

    Well lo and behold, in the fullness of time an ignorant member of my family tapped "YES" to the "Update to iOS 6" message. Running iOS 6, the iPad became a complete dog. Launching web browser took 3 seconds whereas it used to be well under a second in iOS 4. Not just the web browser either, doing just about *anything* with the ipad (even viewing photos stored locally) became a lag-fest.

    Eventually I upgraded to iOS 7 in hopes that it might help (because Apple does not let you downgrade back to an older iOS version, ever). It did not help. At all. I ended up giving away the iPad because it was pretty much unusable.

    But why should it be like that? The iPad's hardware was just as fast in 2015 as it was back in 2011. Aside from the ability to hold a battery charge, it should perform the same.

    I would be happy with a setting somewhere that lets you turn off the "Update" pop-ups, but no, Apple does not let you do that. They want you on the latest bloated OS, and if your older hardware can't handle it, buy a new device.

    • ...do not cripple your server with slowdown code. RedHat updates include backported security patches for older versions of their distributed software. From the RedHat wiki: "Red Hat does not update the kernel version, but instead backports new features to the same kernel version with which a particular version of RHEL has been released... Consequently, RHEL may use a Linux kernel with a dated version number, yet the kernel is up-to-date regarding not only security fixes, but also certain features."

      The Andro

  • There's also a good argument to be made that updating a device hurts future sales. If your phone isn't updated, it will start to feel old, so you're more likely to buy a new phone sooner.

    Yes, refusing to provide updates does make phones feel old prematurely, and does make users more likely to upgrade sooner - to OTHER manufacturers' phones! People think, "Oh, jeez, this phone sucks now. I'm not buying another LG, I'll try a Samsung or Motorola (yes, everyone still calls Moto Motorola) this time." So by not providing updates and waiting for users to upgrade when they want to, OEMs are cheapening their own products, and customers notice.

  • Google seems to think that its partners will update phones because it's The Right Thing To Do by their customers and that

    Seriously? After all the crap they've gone through involving patents, how could they possibly still be this naive?

  • Sue manufacturers AND/OR carriers who withhold security updates for a period of $X years from the date of purchase. Oh, hi Samsung, my device got hacked because YOU refused to apply a patch...sooooo time to cough up some dollars. Or you could go, hi Verizon, that patch Samsung released...you know the one you refused to release...yeah it's time to cough up some dollars.

    Do this enough times and they'll get the hint. Destroy their profits and get judgements to go after their assets and then you'll REALLY
  • I had a Samsung Galaxy Nexus. Nice phone for its day. Never got a single major version upgrade, because the VZN variant used a different SOC from the GSM version, and between Verizon and Samsung, they just said, "meh."

    Currently, using a Galaxy S5 on AT&T and while ma bell provides regular security updates, I haven't seen an Android version update since I received it last year. Still on Lollipop (5.1), no Marshmallow, let alone plans for Nougat.

    • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

      Actually I did get the upgrade with my Sprint Galaxy Nexus. The Verizon and Sprint phones used the same SOC BTW but Verizon never allowed an update. The Sprint CDMA version did not get as many updates as the GSM version but it did get more than the same phone on Verizon.

  • Google has a very lengthy set of terms that OEMs must agree to in order to get access to the Google Play store, the Google Play Services middleware layer and various Google apps.

    Google could add clauses to these terms such that if OEMs want to be allowed to use the Play store and the other Google software, they must support the device with security updates for a minimum amount of time after the release of the device.

    Any OEM that doesn't play ball and follow the rules would risk loosing the right to produce

  • Ok, let me get this straight. You have two software companies (Microsoft and Google). Currently, Google is not forcing OEMs to keep their software up-to-date with new features and bug-fixes, and everyone is losing their minds. Currently, Microsoft is forcing everybody to update their software with the latest features and bug-fixes, and everyone is losing their minds. I don't get it. Is it because "mobile" or is it because its MS vs Google?

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